What would it take to create, establish, and popularize whole new superheroes instead of rebooting old ones?
Normal timeline with heroes dying/aging?
being actually well written. you could cash in on the game of thrones meme and have it be hyper realistic and kill off characters all the time
>>82440419
>game of thrones
>hyper realism
Top lel lad, and no, I ain't talking about the magic n shiet
Big companies taking chances on new IPs, which they don't want to do because they'd rather lose money on rehashed characters than use their brains.
Why doesn't Japanese manga seem to have a problem with shitting out mountains of (samey and clichéd, but still new) new IPs?
Trying original ideas instead of legacies/rip-offs/rehashs/expys/deconstructions/recontructions of existing heroes.
Admittedly with the long history of cape comics, it's all been done.
>>82440303
good suits that incorporate both color theory and strong symbolism
good stories with strong, clear cut story arcs
good marketing
a strong effort to avoid retreading ideas that have already been done to death in recent memory
>>82440303
Putting good writers on new characters and actually promoting them. Also, putting events on hold for a while; no one is going to invest in characters when the world is about to explode every year.
>>82440677
Because they're samey. The Shonen hero has traits that you can expect, even if he fights ghosts, ninjas, or aliens this week.
>>82440303
Good writing that respects the intelligence of the audience without attempting to be intelligent, good marketing, and good designs.
>>82440869
Well, they did with Ms. Marvel. Although she's a legacy.
>>82440303
Effort.
I don't really know. I don't think a lot of people really want Superheroes specifically. There are just some old IPs people have fondness for, but I don't know if people really want new ones by and large.
New characters survive by appealing to a small group long enough to be considered classic to the community at large.
>>82440912
And Ms Marvel is actually doing pretty well last I checked. But she's a legacy and doesn't count for this conversation I think.
>>82440899
>Good writing that respects the intelligence of the audience without attempting to be intelligent
You know that's an issue with lots of media. You put it well.
>>82440937
>Ms Marvel is actually doing pretty well last I checked.
That was my point, yeah. Arguably so are Spider-Gwen, Silk and Gwenpoool. Hell even Whor can't be considered a huge failure, it got mentionned in the Bazinga theory despite the show being produced by WB.
A new audience. The current one likes what it likes and is resistant to change.
>>82440354
This, but more importantly, not buckling under pressure and returning to the status quo.
If Hal never came back from the dead, Kyle would have become the Green Lantern everyone thinks of first by now.
>>82441030
You know I don't mind change, but so much of the change is bad, and a lot of it is for shock value pretending "it's all going to be different now".
The business/creative model is a bit bankrupt because it keeps to a status quo, but when's the last time there was a major (and seemingly definite) status quo change that you approved of?
I honestly wouldn't mind more definite changes if most creators for the big 2 now weren't hacks.
At that point might just aswell acknowledge all the inconsistencies in-story, which both universes have done (although DC on a larger and more noticeable scale).
>>82440677
In Japan, the IP belongs to the author instead of to the publisher, so the story stops when the author decides to stop it (though the editor can pressure them to milk it), whereas in the US the publisher can just put new writers on it ad infinitum.
>>82440303
A market for new heros. Right now the industry is being supported by the 30+ crowd. And they mostly want more of the same characters that they have been already buying for decades.
>>82441019
This
Also writers have to want to create new heroes/characters for DC and Marvel but since readers don't want them, editorial can fuck them up, and rights are iffy, they learned it's better to save your ideas until you can go to Image.
>>82441124
>when's the last time there was a major (and seemingly definite) status quo change that you approved of?
Batman and Robin
Death of the New Gods in Final Crisis
Stephanie as Batgirl
>>82441159
The Franco-Belgian "model" is interesting in that regard. IPs mostly belong to the creators, but a lot of estates tend to relinquish the rights after creator death in one way or another.
There are also cases where one creator remains and one leaves/dies, and cases where the IP is just sort of left to other authors.
Tintin (only 1 approved books after Hergé's death, but his estate lost a trial a couple of years ago making the IP fall into public domain), Astérix (incredible quality dip once both creators were dead, but still steady sales to this day), Lucky Luke (a steady decrease in quality and sales since the death of 1 creator, doing worse with every new team since the death of the second one) and Spirou (has had a lot of creative teams changes, none due to death of authors, has had good runs under various authors) are all various examples of how mainstream IPs have been treated over the last 80 years of Franco-Belgian comics.
Lesson being: even when the IP is owned by creators, chances are their estate will still want to cash in on it after their death, and won't display a lot more artistic integrity than faceless coprorations, sadly.
>>82440303
What it takes is time and persistence.
Lots and lots of years.
I'd rather see an end to the dominance of capes.
>>82441877
And money, and the foresight to look beyond the next quarter's profits.
>>82441368
>Astérix (incredible quality dip once both creators were dead, but still steady sales to this day)
Uderzo retired but he still ain't dead m8.
Some things I'd consider:
* Stop making their initial appearances in other comics. In past comics, you could do this by having one-shot stories within anthologies, but nowadays, there's no other way than to just say: don't feature new heroes in comics that aren't their own.
* With the rise of trades, perhaps you can just straight up make an OGN as an "essential" story within the hero's background, and then create a monthly that is a spiritual successor to it (but which doesn't need the OGN as a prerequisite).
* But overall, stop having these new heroes support older ones, at least not from the very beginning. I mean, that's literally what a supporting character does: they SUPPORT the main characters -- in this case, the old, established ones. Flipping the script within an existing comic (established character being the support; new character being the star) just rubs everyone the wrong way.
As a point by point thing, I'd try out this:
1) Create new character.
2) Either in a backup story, in an anthology, in a cheap OGN, or something, give the character their own story.
3) If the character takes off in popularity right from there, you're done. Give them a series.
4) If not, let them hang out in someone else's series -- not as a supporting character, but as a guest, bit role, or series cameo. Short, snappy appearances that emphasize their character.
5) From there, follow the demand: a series might be nice, but you might be better off finishing a story in the other series.
>>82440303
Time money and talent
>>82440303
make them different races and nonbinary genders of course
>>82445756
If we're going to be serious, that crowd ain't gonna buy comics in enough numbers.
>>82440303
A total overhaul of corporate thinking. Most corporations are by nature risk-averse, so they'd rather go with a sure thing like established characters like Batman and Spider-Man than take a risk investing in a new property that may or may not catch on with the market.
>>82446213
That said, there is such a thing as being too risk-averse. Marvel and DC's reliance on the same old stand-bys means they are in a position to miss out on "the next big thing" and fall behind the times (one could argue that they already have... I bet both Marvel and DC are wishing they had something like The Walking Dead or Saga or Tokyo Ghoul buoying up the sales of their underperforming creator-owned imprints).
>>82440677
because mangas are sold everywhere rather than just comic shops
>>82440303
a risk. you need to give your new hero a book from the get go and not try to tie them to all the other heroes in the universe. then you wait and see if people like it, if they like it it will sell and if not you can add your hero as a B Lister (like blue beetle) and have him in backgrounds
>>82440677
Because self contained stories, no one needs some ongoing for 100 years
>>82440677
as far as I know mangas are sold as anthologies, no one goes to a shop to pick up naruto issue number 235423562. you buy a pack and there will be B stories you make like (which you will read because you paid money for the whole thing, may as well try it) Japanese also have the same characters with new skins while US has same skins and no constancy
>>82440303
Doesn't Paul Pope want to do this with Battle Boy?
>>82440948
most people are retards and need to be spoon fed. hell some of them watch shows while doing laundry.
>>82440899
good writing is an abstract concept.
Nothing. No ones going to top the current roster. Closest you can get is the current companies trying to force relevancy through more popular media.
>>82446438
That's partially true, Manga is mostly sold in regular weekly/monthly/semimonthly anthologies, and then later in series-specific volumes with a few months worth of content, for fans of the specific series.
>>82445756
don't forget to make a big deal out of it, go on the view.
>>82446213
>A total overhaul of corporate thinking
>Most corporations are by nature risk-averse,
they are about minimizing risk. corporations with aversion to risk don't last long
>>82440677
Japan is a mixed bag, you have new stuff coming out, but they don't seem to abandon old stuff either. Golgo 13 for example, started in 1968, and it's still going to this day.
>>82440933
Underrated post.
>>82440933
That and how most people with actual talent don't want to work for Marvel or DC.
>>82440303
people actually liking and supporting them
It's insane how everything superhero is owned by two conglomerates and is completely divorced from its creators and original setup. It's unhealthy.
There shouldn't be shared universe, there shouldn't be infinite continuation. Almost nothing else does it.
>>82446681
The same guy still writes the character, that's why, tho he changes artists now and then.
Similar thing with Fist of North Star and Jojo, the original creators are still making them, though with different characters in the same universe.
>>82447814
American comic books are like panda bears they are stuck in a self created and self sustaining niche that has been "dying" for 30 years.
>>82440303
>new superheroes
Why, we have old ones and they are fine.
>>82446504
This sounds like a model that would make it easier for new stuff to get a foothold, assuming they are regularly polling to figure out which entries in the anthologies readers are actually enjoying?
>>82440935
>>82441168
Is there any evidence to suggest that they are having any success in establishing a new loyal audience younger than 30 with their PG-13 movies?
>>82448255
Of course they do, it's a roothless cutthroat world of competition for readership on a scale we haven't seen before the comics code and TV.
>>82448361
Prolly not, kids watch capekino, read manga, and wack off to hentai/yaoi slash, what they don't do en masse in read comics.
>>82440303
throw shit at a wall and see what sticks.
And you'll have a lot of shit that goes by the wayside. For every icon of the golden age like superman or batman, there were a dozen captain miracle, or Fatty the human UFO or Black Skull, the Pirate Superhero or whatever the fuck.
new icons are actually created every few years.Think Spawn, or Jessica Jones and Sentry.
DC hasn't made as many lately since they've been focusing more on legacies, but Blue Beetle would very much be a new icon.
Avoiding AUs and having it all on linear timeline
Give the comics away for free and have a cartoon and live action movie tie in.
Force it into becoming an internet meme to attract a big publisher into buying it because they smell money.
>>82440303
Honestly, it's just huge corporations being greedy bastards hanging on to old safe shit. There are only so many stories you can write about one character with one set of powers. The Japs have the right idea about comics although their editorial system sucks balls.
>>82440475
>I ain't talking about the magic n shiet
Are you fucking retarded? He's talking about the dynamic that the characters can be killed any time, for good.
There was a short-lived attempt at a modern OC cape show that I think co-starred Summer Glau.
>>82440419
>you could cash in on the game of thrones meme and have it be hyper realistic and kill off characters all the time
Except that does happen all the time, and has been happening since the 90's. That simply does not work.
Nowadays writers do NOT want to make new protags for the big two.
Legacies, sure, since they already own the name and the character can ride off the name. Reinvention of old and neglected properties/characters (e.g. Omega Men, Vibe), sure, since they already own it and you as a writer can get cred if it's good.
It's also more difficult for the big two to get people to care about new characters so they'd rather just jerk the ones people already like. Hence legacies.
Writers now save new characters and ideas until they can launch a book at Image so they can have full rights to it.
Mother Panic over at Young Animal is probably gonna be the first "in continuity" (as much as old Vertigo was at least) new protag at DC in a while. At least the biggest one that's gonna get some degree of pushing.
>>82440303
Make a cartoon
>>82449597
There hasn't been one since Aztek has there?
A true deconstruction of the entire concept of the superhero, the tropes and constantly used gags, and the mindset of those who like and dislike them and yourself as a comicbook/superhero fan.
From there, from that naked fertile earth can you slowly build something.
Truth is, the modern "superhero" already exists, we're just so enamored with the concept of the comic superhero as displayed here and in the media that we simply do not accept them or recognize them.
>>82449720
Even if there was it was apparently so insignificant that nobody remembers it.
>>82450072
So Heroes, but as a comic instead of a TV series?
>>82450072
Oh and we all know the cyclical safe costumed buffoonery of the superhero and even hero villian genre of media.
It's not even interesting to deconstruct it anymore. It's just accepted. And anyone who tries to be all realistically DEEP instead of quasi deep and shit with it AND trying to uphold/defend it's profit driven nature as it is is almost always blown out.
People can recognize that shit and they do not like it at all.
>>82440993
>Hell even Whor can't be considered a huge failure, it got mentionned in the Bazinga theory despite the show being produced by WB
Wait, that show is still going on? Fucking why?
Do you have any ideas for new superheroes, /co/?
>>82440303
>What would it take to create, establish, and popularize whole new superheroes instead of rebooting old ones?
Creativity and originality.
therefore America is out of the game
>>82440303
Auf completely new approach to the medium from the publishers.
You need to have authors take ownership of a character and plan them beginning to end so that there can be an end. As it stands they just rent them out and put them back on the shelf.
>>82450177
They need something to put in between Subaru commercials.
>>82450123
Heroes was just another trite as fuck deconstruction of the genre applied to afternoon drama.
The show is called "Heroes" for fucks sakes. They were using the most basic superhero abilities and tropes and would drop or pick up the importance of those abilities at the drop of a hat.
No. That is not what I'm talking about. It's no more then just another superheros pop out of nowhere in the world and shit happens story.
The same shit happened Ultraverse and many other universes.
Fucking strike force mordacai...before that alien race was defeated had a better idea of it.
Ultraverse and what happened with their first superhero team after they gained powers is more interesting.
>>82449420
There is nothing realistic about that in GoT, if major figures were ever murdered by their subordinates that rapidly there would be no fucking feudal system. It's about as realistic as LOTR.
>>82450072
right, cause that never been done a few dozen times before.
what I'd like to see is something that's the gurren lagann to watchmen's evangelion.
a celebration of what makes superheroes awesome and a tribute to their legacy on popular culture.
but I know it never happen because it's way easier to tear something down then it is to build some up.
>>82450203
tons. I've been trying to write my own super hero book and for that I'm going to need a lot of characters.
who knows, maybe I'll make that reconstruction one day.
>>82450504
>a celebration of what makes superheroes awesome and a tribute to their legacy on popular culture.
Astro City
>>82451173
have to admit I'd completely forgotten about that. I should really try to find some trades of that series, what little I read was awesome.
>>82440303
Does Invincible count as 'popularized'?
Does Hellboy count as a superhero?
If your talking about Marvel and/or DC making a superhero that is equal to their existing characters that is never going to happen, because if you exist in the same world as Batman or Spiderman you are immediately a second-stringer.
>>82440419
Wasn't that Invincible?
>>82450504
>cause that never been done a few dozen times before.
Name them.
Go on. I'll wait.
That celebration of superheroes? That shits been done to death. There are dozens of stories and series that do just that. Hell, I should say hundreds of series and stories in the big two that do just fucking that.
What you want is something like that, that is POPULAR. There are none.
Why? Because the west is SOTTED with that stuff and no one has actually stood back and took a good long look at what works and why and why it doesn't work and why it's failing.
>>82455220
I would never want anyone from /co/ writing for capes because they think things like that are new
Or that there can be any change
>>82440303
Apukolips and/or the Black Order is invading. Everyman only has access to your comics shelf. Does he succeed in saving the Earth?
>>82455220
You write like an autistic person
>>82455220
Superduperman
Watchmen
Miracleman
black summer
super gods
no hero
kick ass
the boys
section eight
and those are just the ones off the top of my head. there probably tons more that I've never heard of.
if you think that superheroes have never been deconstructed in the 80+ years of existence they've had then maybe you should take a step back and take a good long look at what your reading.
A healthier marketplace with enough breathing room to actually experiment.
>>82450203
One I've been tinkering with since high school. It's the reason why I'm even in art school right now. I finally got a power set nailed down and trying to come up with an origin story. Sorry for the vagueness, but I don't have it all figured out yet to start going specific (plus idea protection)