>Gotham introduced Azrael
>Azrael before Batman
>Azrael while Batman is a fucking ten year old
what the fuck were they thinking? Why does Gotham constantly shit on Batman?
>>82428770
Remember Smallville?
>>82428779
One show ruining Superman is no excuse for another show ruining Batman
>>82428770
the order of st dumas has been around long before batman
it was created by the al ghuls
the azrael of gotham was only important for a while because batman let him take his place
It's an Elseworlds not an adaption. Doing things different is the point.
>>82428779
>>82428796
>Comparing Gotham to Smallville
Difference is that Gotham is the best cape related show on tv and having Galavan go Old Testament on people was amazing
>>82428894
When Smallville was on point...it was a bit on point.
And well, they are somewhat counterparts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrAjMRtDNfo
The comics were never canon.
>>82428770
So, I guess we're just giving up any pretense of even reading the comics we bitch about, let alone paying attention to the show?
Azrael was an inherited title in the comics. Galavan was crazy and was convinced that he inherited the Azrael title.
He isn't even the real Azrael. The show literally shows you all this.
>>82429024
>the swordfucking breaks
Amazing
>>82429061
it wasn't the real sword. They also tell you that. Hugo had it made the day before.
>>82429101
I know, I just loved that scene.
Galavan is in full blood knight mode and it just comes crashing down.
>>82428894
I cannot agree with you while Flash and AoS are still on the air.
>>82429124
Oh, okay. Yeah that ruled. Especially when he was so shocked by it.
>>82429142
This has to be bait.
>>82428770
So this was totally the set up for Joker being a resurrection with no "story", right?
Cry more faggot.
>>82429276
Doubt it. Everything they've done with the Joker has showed that they don't want him to be a person until Batman appears.
>>82429142
AoS is like second or third in terms of cape show qualityno bait it's a great show that just had a bad first winter season and a lot of people just hate that it isn't about super heroesbut Flash definitely took a massive nosedive in quality after the first season and is currently going full Arrow.
>>82429276
Depends on what's done with Jerome's tank body.
Old Jean-Paul > Galavan > New Jean-Paul > that other guy
It is kind of amazing how this show is tackling all of Batman's rogues before Batman gets there. It's like making a Spider-Man show about Captain Stacy with all of the Spider-Man villains but Peter still hasn't been bit by the spider yet.
>>82429377
I will admit that the quality of Flash dropped, buy it's the only show that actually feels like you are watching a comic book with the forced romance drama in each episode, the rogue of the week formula and the uses of crazy ridiculous powers it just feels like it wants to be a comic book, whereas every other show feels like it's trying it's best to get away from its comic source. Maybe it's just because I don't watch a lit of television shows, but that's one of the main reasons flash is my top pick for live action tv.
>>82429523
>buy it's the only show that actually feels like you are watching a comic book
Gotham is even more comic booky.
Azrael is a title that's been passed down for 1000 years
You'd know this if you've ever read anything
I recently read the comic introduced Azrael and it was boring as shit, I liked the last arkham though
>>82429523
I'd say Gotham is the most like watching a comic book.
The hyper reality, the insane but played with a straight face scenarios, and the atmosphere in general.
>>82429504
It's more like "hey what if all of Spider-Man's villains had backstories before they became super villains?"
Gotham's interesting because we're seeing the city outside the context of Batman. Every other interpretation has supervillains being created while Bruce is active.
Plus very few of the "villains" are anything but legacy inspirations for Batman versions.
>>82429142
>>82429377
>>82429523
Gotham>Izombie>AoS>Flash>Daredevil>Jessica Jones>Agent Carter>Walking Dead>Arrow>Dark Matter>Legends of Tomorrow>Supergirl
I've never seen Lucifer, Powers, or Wynonna Earp.
>>82429504
I really just enjoy the campiness of the show, it's like the 60s Batman of our generation
>>82429523
>buy it's the only show that actually feels like you are watching a comic book
what? Gotham is exactly like Batman comics, to the point of exploring the themes of Batman's rouges and the nature of superhero personas.
Flash isn't true to the comics at all; they just throw out references before they kill off characters.
>>82428770
Who the fuck cares?
>>82429662
>Arrow over LoT
>Arrow over anything
m8
>>82429662
Arrow should be last
>>82429662
Supergirl is legitimately better than Arrow. Walking Dead is so bad nowadays I'd put it over that too. Legends is better than Arrow too since it at least has fun characters.
We should do power rankings of every cape show. Batman '66, Wonder Woman, Isis, Captain Marvel, Birds of Prey, Smallville, Flash '90s, Hulk, etc
>>82429662
>Arrow isn't last
m8...
>>82429762
>>82429736
This. Arrow is drek
>>82429622
I'll give Gotham another chance like I gave to AoS, but after the first 10 episodes of the first seasons I just said fuck it, this show is going nowhere fast, there were just too many things that bothered me.
>>82429822
If you already did 10 episodes...then the rest might not change your mind.
The show started getting good during Balloonman.
>>82429795
>>82429773
>>82429762
At least Arrow has a plot that progresses more than once every ten episodes, and some characters that while not having good material at least have good chemistry.
Why does his mask and Deathstrokes look so off in live action? Like thats the one thing I expected to not look so weird
>>82429805
>>82429795
>>82429773
>>82429736
>>82429762
I need one of these for Arrow fans.
>>82429860
Arrow is complete trash. I don't even know what the plot is at this point.
>>82429868
The masks don't work because they'd be to small for actors to actually wear.
>>82429860
>and some characters that while not having good material at least have good chemistry.
hhahahahahahahahaha
thats one area it cant beat lot in
>>82429956
>thats one area it cant beat lot in
barista
Anyone have a recommended reading for Azrael? He looks like a cool character and I would love to read more. Also what your opinions on No Mans Land?
>>82429852
I liked Balloon Man, what killed it for me was Barbra's sudden heel turn, Selina and Bruce getting a childhood romance, Selina who is apparently homeless here is always perfectly clean and with great hair, Zasz being Bullseye lite. The high points were everything with Oswald and old Falcone.
I'll give season 2 a chance because I believe that there was lots of room for improvement, but from what I've herd and seen, it just turned a diffrent shade of shit.
>>82429974
More like the entire cast except Stein.
>>82429974
2 characters with rip. everyone else on the team has great chemistry with everyone else.
>>82430018
But everything you listed was a positive
>>82430018
>but from what I've herd and seen, it just turned a diffrent shade of shit.
nah it dropped the votw stuff and the gang wars
>>82429873
Well we all know how pepe is going to be
>>82430046
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with you as much as I'd like to.
>>82430020
>cold
>heatwave
>sara
>that adorable puppy
>not great
>>82430093
LoT's biggest strength is that Heatwave stopped grunting in fire puns.
>>82428919
>Not naming the monkey Bebbo
What's even the point
>>82430003
The Azrael solo after Knightsend was decent for what I read of it. I stopped when he was about to rebel against the Order.
No Man's Land is great up until the extended batfamily shows up. Then it gets weaker and weaker until it ends with a less than interesting Joker story.
>>82430117
Yeah after he was Chronos he does more than just fire puns. well he still does that but more than that too
>>82429822
The first sesson of Gotham does 2 things: it sets up that Gotham's criminal families are a powderkeg, and that Gotham is a city that's completely deranged and beyond saving. I mean if you're paying attention at all you should be able to tell this. There's a ton of stuff going on.
The first half of the season is a bunch of pieces being moved around with everything about to blow at any second. The latter half of the season, particularly episode 19, has everything come tumbling down in a personal way, but you can't have that without establishing that how the city works and where everyone fits.
I mean, hell, look at how many times Penguin changes sides in that season. Look at how many people's lives get flip-turned upside down (especially Barbara.)
>>82429860
>I have never watched Gotham: the post
>>82430162
Cold and Heatwave have in general been better represented in LoT than in any of their Flash episodes...cause the Rogues episodes were pretty weak in terms of being Rogue-ish
>>82430003
I'd start with the mini Batman: Sword of Azrael for back story then read knightfall and knights end before moving onto his solo which is pretty hit or miss. He falls into a very static state after awhile before showing up in some bat books. Maybe pick up No mans land if you want to finish off his story.
>>82430195
It just sucks that it takes over 15 episodes before it starts getting good.
>>82430195
>>I have never watched Gotham: the post
I love Gotham, as you can see >>82429662
. I was responding to people thinking Arrow is worse than Dark Matter, LoT, and Supergirl.
>>82430093
>>cold
>>heatwave
Yeah, because egregious overacting is great as long as it's intentional.
>>sara
Forgot about her, she's fine
>>that adorable puppy
He's completely incapable of acting any other emotion except chipper, and even then he seems disconnected from the situation he's in.
>>82430285
It is m8. Arrow is shit. Everyone is just a vehicle to say how strong and brave felicity is. At least supergirl has actual fucking powers go earn that praise
>>82430018
Everything you listed was a positive though?
Barbara especially. Like, were you paying attention to her introduction? She's a pill popping alcoholic shut-in. She was barely sane to begin with, and if you're familiar with Batman lore at all you'd know that insanity practically spreads like the flu there. She was already capable of being a villain- remember her little speech to Selina about using your sexuality as a weapon? Sure it foreshadowed Catwoman, but it also showed what Barbara already knew. The Ogre just showed her what she could be.
I don't see what's wrong with Selina and Bruce knowing each other, either; it makes him constantly letting her go free despite her crimes make a lot more sense. And Hollywood never has dirty homeless people, especially not in a hyperstylized world like Gotham.
As for Zsasz, can anyone really say that Zsasz the shirtless serial killer jobber is their favorite character? A person with a compulsion to kill hiring themselves out as a hitman makes sense; besides, we all know he'll lose control eventually and strike out on his own.
>>82430469
>Everyone is just a vehicle to say how strong and brave felicity is
That meme again. Just because you hate her doesn't mean other things aren't happening in the show.
>>82430259
Hi thanks for reading my post.
It's already good; you're just expecting it to be a stream of memes and references without plot development like Flash or Arrow are.
>>82430550
Like Black Canary dying so we can hear how string and brave Felicity is?
>>82430550
Like? Sara dying and telling Oliver felicity is his true love? Shitty pointless flashbacks? Darhk?
>>82430551
>implying
No, I just wanted it to be good without 10 hours of exposition to the history of the world that I'm watching. I'm a fucking comic fan, I know Gotham is a shit hole, I know the crime families are a powder keg, I know the police force is corrupt, so why do I have ro sit through 12 hours of shit I already know? That's like watching another movie on the origin story of Batman. I guess I should watch a show that panders to a wider audience than just casuals
>>82430285
Oh, gotcha.
Supergirl has development though- all the stuff with her Aunt trying to save Krypton while her mom betrayed her and doomed their race and her Uncle trying to use Kryptonian tech to save the world, MM lying to everyone and spending his whole life paying back the girls' father by watching over his daughters, Kara's sister's deep-seated jealousy over her sister being the one with special powers, toyman's son constantly thinking he's going to have a psychotic episode, Jimmy's entire life revolving around Superman...
It's definitely better than Arrow, at least.
>>82430668
Just skip to season 2. All you need to know from season 1 is the mob is done and penguin is king of gotham
Holy fuck fuck these river/street sign infinite captchas
>>82430729
He would just complain about not knowing who people are.
>>82430668
It's called character development. You might not be familiar with it.
>>82430581
It had plot consequences for almost every character, not just Felicity. Oliver now is considering killing again, Diggle wants revenge on his brother, and Quinten is a fucking wreck.
>>82430628
Yes, the show is bad. Pinning is solely on Felicity is what I find ridiculous.
So I guess Azrael is one of the inspirations for Bruce's eventual Batman persona in Gotham
>>82429662
>>82430285
>>82430550
>fight scenes are woody
>CGIs were crappy
>darhk motivation's still unclear
>stories written 2 hours before shooting
>literally green filter
there's not a single redeemable quality in arrow this season. LoT might be shit, but the recentgiant robot fightalone makes it infinitely better than "felicity's tumblr post show".
>>82430772
>Balloon man shows him vigilantism can work
>Gotham Goat shows him what a symbol of fear can do
>Alfred teaches him to fight
>Cat teaches him to survive And move on the streets
>Azrael inspires his techniques and equipment
>>82430772
>baloonman: vigilantes get stuff done
>spirit of the goat: you need to strike fear into people
>azreal: beating people up on black armor is cool
>>82430762
You seem mad that not everyone likes your favorite show anon. It's okay, diffrent strokes and all that, no reason it let it rustle your Jimmies.
>>82430904
Now we only need a master detective to show him the ropes on that.
>>82428770
Who cares about your autistic continuity.
man I don't give a fuck what gotham does to batman's canon, it's good
>>82428770
They wrote themselves into a retarded corner by making Bruce 10 years old.
>>82431103
It's like you don't even watch the show
Last episode had Bruce hanging out with a raptor-girl trying to solve his parents murder. How is that a corner?
>>82431103
I want you to explain this.
>>82430985
I hope it's a slow thing with him connecting to his dad through his dad's detective work.
>>82429662
>anything over Daredevil
I realize it's totally subjective but I'm upset.
>Arkham would likely be better off being led by Riddler than Strange
>>82431346
I would rate Daredevil slightly under Gotham. Second season was weak other than the Punisher parts
>>82431411
I was never a big Gotham fan (I gave it 3 episodes), so maybe that's why DD is my favorite?
Regardless, opinions are opinions so w/e.
>>82431346
The first seasons of both netflix shows have the same problem in that they're trying to tell a completely serialized story but at the same time stretch it out to 13 episodes when it could have been done in 5 or 6. Daredevil season 2 doesn't have that problem, but I really don't like the Electra stuff.
>>82431346
I don't like Daredevil at all. It doesn't have any energy, the camerawork is boring, and the world is just kind of bland. It's jarring to go from Daredevil to Gotham, with all its dutch angles and expressionistic art design.
A good comparison of their approaches is Frank and Matt having that talk on the roof; it's two people presenting their opinions to one another.
Then look at Barbara's therapy session with Lee, and how it starts out presenting her as weak, then makes both the audience and Lee uncomfortable with Barbara's offness ("Do you ever want him to hit you? You know, to show he cares?",) before having her reveal to both the character and the audience that she killed her parents. All the while Babs is ready to jump on Lee and Lee is preparing herself for it; it's a fantastic scene where you go in expecting drama, and eventually realize that the character is in very real danger.
Then, similarly, there's the scene where Barbara is being interrogated by Jim when she's arrested. Jim's standing up, Barbara is sitting down- Jim's completely in control. Every single word Barbara says literally sounds like she's on the edge of orgasm, and Jim talks down to her. He thinks he's in control from the second he walks into that room. But the second he kisses her you can see that he's completely defeated, and he knows it. The entire time he was in that room she was the one in control, not him.
Or when Jim was kidnapped by Maroni. Or Don Falcone confronting Liza. Or the entire episode dedicated to Bruce and Silver's kidnap.
Personal interactions. Subverting expectations. Tension, Framing. That's where Gotham excels.
>>82431450
>i didn't watch Gotham but I'd rate definitely put it under the show I did watch
m8
>>82431357
If this episode is anything to go by it would just be a different kind of terrible. Did you see how easily Eddie Spaghetti got the inmates wrapped around his fingers? Imagine that, but with all of Arkham. And he could do whatever he wanted.
At least Strange is detached from the whole thing. He doesn't seem to have an end goal; he's just probing the city with psychopaths to see what happens. Riddler could actually do some real damage.
>>82429416
I hope it disappears mysteriously without Strange even touching it and then is never seen again.
>>82432250
This.
>>82431103
Bruce is older now.
He started out as a 12 year old, but by now, he's likely 15 (or about to turn 15)
Hell, he's now as tall as Gordon
Pretty sure this entire season is setting him up so that he's going to decide that batman needs to be a thing at the end, and the entire season 3 will be him studying combat, devising strategies, etc.
Season 3 will end with him going out in black sweats and trying to be a vigilante, and getting his ass handed to him.
Season 4 will be 17 year old bruce basically being Batman year 1. Unless they decide to have Ras Al Ghoul take him away for training. But I think it's far more likely they'll have ras arrive in Gotham and train him there.
what I dont understand is what the fuck is Bruce still doing in Gotham? He should be overseas
training.
>>82429662
>iZombie that high
Opinion discarded.
It's a more boring Castle with zombie gimmick and less entertaining protagonist.
>b-but season finale
Doesn't do that 90 percent of the show is exactly what I said.
>>82433681
*Doesn't undo
>>82433681
iZombie is a show about a woman living and a man dying.
If you can't appreciate character driven shows you are probably better off doing something else, like watching Arrow.
also Castle is literally shit.
>>82433681
Characters and writing are 10 times what Castle will ever be, and unlike Castle it has a fun ongoing plot. Also Liv.
Gotham is just an Alternate universe Batman story where Bruce meets all his villains when he's a kid.
I mean I dropped that shit hard towards the end of the first season, but not because of how dumb it was having batman villains with no batman, it was more because I was expecting a Gotham Central type cop show.
>>82433816
>iZombie is a show about a woman living and a man dying.
Bitch, please. It's a dumb police procedural like 90 percent of Amerifat tv. Take off your waifu glasses.
>iZombie
>character-driven
To be character-driven it has to have characters and not shitty caricatures first.
>also Castle is literally shit.
You're saying it like I said Castle is good. They're both garbage.
>>82433841
>fun ongoing plot.
You mean "boring, dragged out ongoing plot"
is Azrael in Gotham Michael Lane, Jean-Paul or someone else?
Cause I mean, with the Order of St. Dumas having multiple Azraels, this is the one 'villain' I'm pretty okay with being around during Bruce's childhood.
>>82433917
when will the gotham central meme die
That sounds like the worst fucking show imaginable
>>82433681
>>82433841
>>82429662
you faggots only hype up izombie because neckbeards have a weird fetish for girls with weird colored hair.
>>82433948
He's a member of the Order of St.Dumas who was raised with the story, goes insane, and Hugo Strange uses his ties to the story to make him think he's the real Azrael.
He's not even a real Azrael. He's a man having a psychotic episode.
>>82433956
>Not wanting The Wire starring Gordon, Harvey Bullock and Renee Montoya
Yeah, go fuck yourself
>>82433925
>i didn't watch it
kill yourself daredevil fag
>>82434027
Yeah, no. I would rather watch paint dry. The Wire is fucking horrible.
>>82434029
>he criticizes my shit show
>"y-you just didn't watch it"
Pathetic.
>>82434027
> wanting such a boring thing when we have these crazy ass monday nights
you deserve to be shot
>>82434027
>implying Gotham isn't already a sequel to The Shield
>>82434004
Actually, I came for Rob Thomas and stayed for Rob Thomas. Cute zombies are a bonus though.
>>82434027
Can somebody please explain to me this The Wire meme? Because I've seen that show, and it is honest to god unwatchable. It reminds me of all those gritty crime drama movies that try to be Oscar bait but end up completely forgettable.
It's like Breaking Bad or Prison Break or something. The only reason people watch it was because everyone else was watching it, and it gave them something to talk about.
That's why I can't get into Daredevil. It's trying it's hardest to be a show like that, which means it's getting rid of everything that makes a show interesting. Sorry, but there's a ton of other things I can do with my time, and wasting it on a show where nothing interesting happens is not high on my priorities.
>>82434117
I came for Liv, and stayed for Major. He has one of the best arcs I've ever seen.
>season 1 of Gotham
>alfred says "Thomas told me to never take Bruce to a psychologist"
>season 2 of Gotham
>all about Hugo Strange's adventures in psychiatric malpractice
>>82428770
there wasnt just one azrael
Elseworld mate, get over it.
>>82434231
It's laurel season 2 arc done right. Plus mayor doesn't have to live up to a comic book counterpart unlike black canary, he's free to be his own character
>>82429662
>never seen Lucifer
I'd recommend it. It's not perfect, but it has some good moments, especially if you are a fan of the more supernatural comic characters.
>>82430985
>>82430904
>>82430904
>>82431325
Jim Gordon...Detective GCPD..
>>82428770
>I have opinions about a show I don't watch
>>82436396
You have to shout it.
GCPD!
Jim is the shoutiest person I've ever seen. I wonder what breaks him and makes him is comic self
>>82430904
>>82430956
You know, the show does the same thing for Gordon too. The first season had Jim beating his head against the corrupt establishment and being strict on justice, while Season 2 has been all about Clobbers being too by-the-book and not allowing Jim to bend the boundries of the law to stop criminals.
It's prepping him to be ready to accept a vigilante like Batman without pursuing him. I wonder if he'll know Batman's identity, though?
Also, now that Commissioner Clobbers is dead, and with Jim's "maybe I'll be commissioner someday" line, do you think Jim will be made commissioner this season?
>>82436472
no he still isnt anywhere near the comissioner spot which is why he said someday. Think about it he just got released from prison and isn't even a cop now. He has lost his badge a bunch of times. Not even Gotham makes someone like that Commissioner
>>82428770
how that sword work?
>>82436472
He might lead something but not commissioner. At best this season will end or the next will begin with a promotion where he basically has to deal with even more bullshit
>>82434868
Hell, with Strange out of the picture we might even get an Arkham next season
The main complaint from people who don't watch Gotham is
>Hurr its a Batman show without Batman
But to me Batman is one of the least interesting aspects of the stories he's in. His villains and how he plays off of them are often far more interesting than just Batman himself.
Beyond that, it's an elseworlds tale. I can understand being disappointed that it isn't a Batman show, but to give it its due, what we've got is actually a pretty solid show.
People treat the idea that the crazies came to Gotham because of Batman far too fucking seriously for my tastes. There is no good reason why Batman can't be a reaction to it. Even if you prefer the crazies to come after Batman, the entire fucking premise doesn't hinge on it.
FISH MOONEY IS THE WHITE RABBIT
>azrael has been around since crusades
>im upset
You're a fag OP
>>82428894
>>82429142
Daredevil called. He can smell your bullshit from NY.
DC being unoriginal yet again
>>82436472
Yeah, they're doing a real good job with that. I originally hated that Gordon killed Galvan, but once they showed that how much it fucked up Gordon was the first step to Bruce's no kill rule it all made sense.
>>82440462
Plus it gives a real reason for his no kill rule
That if he kills someone someone else will bring them back crazier and stronger
>>82438627
Well my main compliant is the show wants to be this hyper-campy winkfest but also wants to be a gritty, character-driven pulp show at the same time and they've never mixed.
You can't have a series where everyone is some dumb cartoon but I'm also supposed to care about their character development, it's the exact same thing Batman & Robin did where we'd go from ICE TO SEE YOU and Bat credit cards to these terrible maudlin scenes of Victor crying over muh wife as if that's supposed to matter. So instead of actually trying to build these characters out they just turn them into totally different characters depending on what the plot needs to be. Jim Gordon has been nineteen different characters over the course of the show because they can't bother to develop him in any way.
That's why my favourite characters on the show are Galavan and Strange, because James Frain and BD Wong know they're on complete shit and are playing it accordingly. They're basically Saturday morning cartoon villains and that's fine.
>>82440014
Shit bait
>>82433635
can we stop this retarded shit about shows having to be like the comics?
Literally none of the shows follow the comics at all besides The Walking Dead
>>82434204
i don't know about the wire but if you think that people watch breaking bad just because people watch it and not because is one of the best shows ever made is because you are a pleb
>>82429662
Wynona Earp's enjoyable, but it's literally Supernatural, seasons 1 and 2 with girls.
>two same-sex siblings from the midwest got a parent and other significant female figure killed by demons
>hunting and killing demons runs in the family
>demon-killing revolver
>apparently other magic shit happens in the world too
Doc Holliday is easily the best character. Bobo Del Rey looks like he walked off the set of Vikings and passed through gentrified Brooklyn on the way to the Earp set.
