I just wanted to make a thread about this since this comic makes me angry on a number of levels. Some of the plot ideas are interesting and I like the trippy Dr. Strange-but-for-witchy-chicks sort of vibe, but the way it handles Wanda's heritage is pretty awful, and I'm really not a fan of yet MORE retcons to her backstory(I'm very much a Magneto family proponent). The whole series was meant to give her personality that she didn't have before, and supposedly couldn't have when she was just Magneto's daughter(which I think is kind of insulting as someone who enjoyed her character in some of the earlier comics, but anyway), but outside of her banter with Agatha we don't see much of a difference.
I really want to focus on particular though on the way the writer, James Robinson, approaches her Romani heritage as it's done in a pretty cheesy and gratuitous way even though he acts like it's giving it serious thought.
Btw, I LOVE some of the covers as well as Wanda's new design. I wish they'd give her something like this in the movies instead of the red coat and vague hot topic vibe.
Here's the first place it really brings up her heritage in earnest, the concept of a "Chuvihani".
Most of the hits I get on this are from Pagan websites and the like, romanticised ideas white people have of Romani culture. It's definitely true there is folk magic within Romani culture, much of it shared with eastern europe in general(the balkan and slavic lands) but it's nebulous as to whether there's much of a concept of a "Gypsy Witch".
A more common term would be Drabarni - often synonymous with fortune teller(ni endings signify the feminine in Romanes). It was a popular profession especially among Lovari and Kalderash women, and remains so in some communities, though Gadje passed laws against it or otherwise made it difficult in various points of history.
The fortune telling was largely an incidence of profiting off the cultural stereotype. Being cultural outliers wherever they went, it was often necessary to rely on such professions to survive. In modern times it's very difficult for Romani people as a lot of their traditional professions have been taken out of their hands, especially thanks to the dawn of capitalism and the industrial revolution.
Drabarni are often thought of as general wise women, working with herbs and divination in much the same vein as other "witch" concepts. It's very difficult to discern the actual history from the romanticism. The Roma community and individuals I'm familiar with tend to be fairly heavily christianised. It's also important to remember that they are of South Asian origin and still retain many traces of Hinduism in their culture nearly a thousand years later.
So it's very hard to pinpoint the origin of a lot of these supposed traditions. Fortune telling and witchcraft likely has it's origins primarily in slavic cultures.
What tumblr did you pull this off of?
>>82396674
And now we descend into pure gadje nonsense.
A "Roma hex"?
Ajaj Devla...
This seems to associate Wanda's traditional "hex" power, originally of her mutant heritage, with her Romani heritage. I don't know how to even get into how ridiculous this is.
When you're dealing with a series where magic is, in fact, real and tangible, and you have people from different cultures with their own folk magic traditions, it's a bit of a balancing act. You want for different cultures and traditions to be able to contribute, but you also don't want to rely on cultural stereotypes or just plain nonsense.
I don't feel this was a good job at a balancing act, again because it made too direct a connection between Wanda's powers and her heritage. Speaking of which...
>>82396815
I read the comic, and I was adopted by a Romani family/work with the local Roma community so I know a lot of this first hand. I'm still a dumb white girl/gadji though so my expertise is limited but obviously better than anyone currently working for Marvel that I know of.
The whole tumblr/SJW bogeyman is just a dumb silencing tactic IMO. If you don't want to hear about a character's heritage and things like historical/cultural accuracy, you can go elsewhere. "tumblr" is not synonymous with "not getting shit wrong about other people's cultures".
Anyway, onto Wanda's newly retconned mother, the previous Scarlet Witch.
In Romanes, "Marime" is a difficult concept to explain, but it's usually translated as "ritually impure", somehow dirty either in actuality or in an abstract sense. Because of their forced nomadic history, like other travelling peoples they developed a lot of laws around cleanliness that got tied to the idea of cultural "purity". For example, one of the reasons why women wear skirts is that they are considered "impure" from the waist down, because of bleeding(it's also a lot easier to deal with than bleeding the crotch of your pants, I guess). In general, tops and bottoms tended to be washed separately, though the Roma i Know don't particularly uphold that tradition.
This is the problem I have this comic, especially with the previous panel. With the "Roma Hex" thing, it sounded desperately like the wanted to say "Gypsy" and just word substituted in "Roma" to be more... politically correct? I don't know. But the end result is the same, you have gypsy witches with their stereotypical sorceress magic tied to their culture. It seems like he googled a bunch of terms and just shoved them in there. I can be guilty of this sometimes when I write short stories but I do my best to research.
I can't imagine if an actual Roma woman had magic powers and fought evil spirits they'd use a word like "Marime".
>>82397112
There's actually quite a few flowery curses in Romanes - not actual curses in the magical sense, but that's probably where some of the confusion arises as Gadje equate them with a actual curses. "May you chew on the bones of the dead!" stuff like that. They're just sayings. Though if a Roma person wants to insult you they'll probably just call you Dile/i/o.
Anyway, so okay, Magda isn't her mother anymore? Or not mother in an ACTUAL sense... maybe in a spiritual sense, or a descendant(she's yet to be born)? I don't fucking know.
What she's saying here translates to "beautiful daughter" or thereabouts, though S(h)ukar is the more common phrase for "beautiful".
Anyway, here's one thing Robinson says about the whole Scarlet Witch concept - "In my past as a writer, I did an Eisner-award winning miniseries called Witchcraft, so I had done research back in the day. And now picking that up again and doing more reading I’ve found some interesting things, like the Romani culture doesn’t particularly smile on witches. And red and scarlet are very unlucky colors [in the culture]. So why would you call yourself the Scarlet Witch?" -- James Robinson
He sounds really full of himself, like, I wrote a thing about witches, so of course I'd be the best at it! He also says he recognises Romani culture isn't actually that big on the witch thing(which is still somewhat of a gadje imposition, there are "witchcraft" like elements in Romani culture that aren't inherently seen as bad, from an outsider perspective) but he still writes a "Gypsy witch" stereotype with little nuance(thus far anyway).
It's also laughable that red is an "unlucky colour". Most of the Roma I know here dress in various shades of red & scarlet(or purple). Red is actually seen as a sign of wealth, since it's eyecatching and red dyes are/were more expensive. Maybe in certain contexts it's considered unlucky, but not for clothing.
I don't think he read that so much as googled it or heard it.
Scarlet Witch has always been a shit character, and no amount of retconning her background and pushing her on an uninterested audience will change that.
>>82397306
Also the way every Irish person in the comic talks like this... after Wanda remarked how "modern" Dublin was... even that comes across as patronising as hell. Is this how you yanks see us?
Anyway... if anyone had been reading the comic and was confused as to the random word drops or wondering how accurate and of this shit was, here's your answer.
I don't think the concept of a Romani witch is inherently racist, of course(Wanda's one of my favourite characters), but it's such an easy fall back and generally done in the wrong way. I love witches, I love Wanda, and this series could have been pretty great. But I was wary of it from the start with the way they acted like now that she cast off the shackles of being Magneto's daughter(and her jewish heritage, bleh), they could explore her personality, and i guess culture(Badly).
I don't want to discourage people from trying to do a bit of a research and writing characters from different backgrounds, it's just that Robinson did a small amount of research and was vastly overconfident with how much he could do on the basis of it. 20 minutes of chatting with an actual Roma person before he finalises the script would make those elements of the comic 10x better. Though I'm not sure it'd be fun for them.
>>82396235
Okay right off the bat, I wanna say something. While I love the idea of wacky grandpa Magneto, I feel it's really a smart plan to distance Wanda from that right now. Bendis giving Wanda severe daddy issues as an excuse for M Day and Disassembled has basically tainted the well for their relationship. I think the best thing that can be done is put some distance between the two until that blows over. Plus Marvel's trying to downplay it cause of Movie Rights and shit so might as well enjoy the break until Fox finally decides to work with Disney and then it's revealed that he was always her father again. The Paternity of the Maximoff Twins kind of comes and goes, nothing to get rattled about in all honesty. Remember when the Whizzer was their dad?
As far as Robinson's run goes, it's okay. I mean I respect the effort your putting in to go over all of the inconsistencies of Roma tradition, but I'd say the major problem is the pacing. It's an interesting story but it's scattered. Mostly one shot adventures with a loose connecting plot of "Witchcraft is broken" and so allusions to the Emerald Warlock being behind it. Speaking of Mr Dane, I was actually pretty pumped for his reveal after the delightful Annual of Uncanny Avengers that Robinson wrote. It got me interested in what his motivations were. But once he gets his big villain moment, it seems all he's about is that he's just immortal and power hungry. Not that that's a bad thing, Vandal Savage can rock that shit all week, but I was hoping their might be some more personal connection to Wanda or the Scarlet Witch Legacy (which actually also piqued my interest).
I'm gonna stick with it, cause I like Wanda and I like Robinson (his Squadron Supreme is pretty rad) and I'm hoping that the story will pick up soon.
>>82397306
>Magda isn't her mother anymore?
Well Uncanny Avengers retconed that Magda and Magneto were her parents and implied that Django and Marya were her real parents. Maybe it's Marya.
>>82397375
I disagree. She was fun in Cap's Kooky Quartet and the Scarlet Witch & Vision minis. She was fine in 90s avengers too, aside from the dodgy belly dancer costumes. Bendis ruined her.
>>82396235
Maybe Madam Xanadu is more your cup of tea, then.
>>82397462
>Magda and Magneto weren't her parents
Sorry! Fuck. What is wrong with me? Need to learn to write.
>>82397471
>Bendis ruined her.
We can rebuild her! We can make her better! Stronger! Faster!
But I don't wanna spend a lot of money.
>>82397462
>Okay right off the bat, I wanna say something. While I love the idea of wacky grandpa Magneto, I feel it's really a smart plan to distance Wanda from that right now. Bendis giving Wanda severe daddy issues as an excuse for M Day and Disassembled has basically tainted the well for their relationship.
But see this is what I don't like. They shouldn't have to uproot this because of Bendis fucking up. I just really dislike this as a solution and think it sends the wrong message.
Didn't they say it was basically all Dr. Doom fucking with her anyway? Which is amusing since yet another Romani person gets the blame.
There was a time when if you had written this as a letter to the editor, it might have gotten printed, along with a response. Not anymore, unfortunately. I expect it's TL;DR for 4chan, too. If you made it into a youtube video, people might watch it. Certain podcasts might also pick up on it.
>>82397571
Speaking I was a bit worried with them taking her in a crazy direction in the movies, but it seems like she's pretty stable, she just fucked up like anyone else.
I'm still mixed as to how I feel about Liz Olsen as the scarlet witch. You can't have this conversation on /co/ these days but it was really whitewashing. Wanda is often depicted as being darker or at the very least having quite a striking appearance. I know it's not exactly easy to find a Romani actor, but there are actors with Romani heritage that would have looked the part. Or at least someone middle eastern or Desi... or hell, Tatiana Maslany, who's a little on the ambiguous side, would have made a great Wanda.
Marvel never seem to really know what to do with her heritage, to be honest.
>>82397436
Nicely said, anon. Scarlet witch is easily the most mishandled character in comics.
>>82397634
Doom did what he had to to save his Waifu.
There's not a one among us who would do any less.
>>82397652
I tweeted the guy about this at least once and no response. I suspect he has too much confidence in his own writing.
And like someone said, it's not the biggest problem with the comic either(though the most jarring for myself), there's a lot of stuff that needs a sit down and rethink.
>>82397788
>I suspect he has too much confidence in his own writing.
Or, you know, shit to do.
>>82397730
>Wanda is often depicted as being darker
I dunno, it kinda fluctuates depending on the artist.
>>82397741
Still better than comic limbo. That was her position while Bendis was in charge of Avengers. Bendis is the mind killer.
>>82397835
Yeah, like writing a comic? I mean if you're going to write a comic about a Romani character that delves into their heritage and lineage, you think you'd be up for doing some research. If someone's offering you a quick fix on a plate, it makes sense to take it. He doesn't have to listen to me - I'd rather he listen to an actual Roma person - but he really needs to listen to other people if he wants to pull this comic off.
>>82397866
>I dunno, it kinda fluctuates depending on the artist.
Yeah, but she really should be. Back in the 60s/70s it was hard to convey subtle differences in skintone, you were white, brown or black, and brown was almost as dark as the black. It wasn't something they got down until the end of the 80s, or even the mid 90s and it's why a lot of characters(like Sunspot) have inconsistent skintones.
There are pale Romani of course, but nobody he's fully Romani as Wanda technically is now will really pass for "white". They almost always look closer to Desi than white, or at best a heavily Mediterranean or middle eastern person. Even if she's retconned back to half Roma, she was still obviously able to pass for full. It makes the casting decision even more annoying. It's largely Joss Whedon's fault too, they never considered a non-white actress(they wanted Saoirse Ronan) and he has a shitty history with Roma characters(Jenny/Angel).
>>82397922
Robinson's a manic depressive, he's not exactly the most stable guy when it comes to responding to criticism.
>>82397922
That would mean listening to unsolicited advice on the internet about his profession. No matter how wrong he is, that path leads to self destruction, so he can't do it. You'd have been better off writing an article about it, and letting him discover it as part of the buzz about his work.
>>82398112
I still gotta respect him for using her in the movie. Lord knows if it wasn't for Whedon they wouldn't have even considered her.
>>82397462
To me, Chthon is where it's at. Making her one of a line of witches or making her just a witch takes away her uniqueness.
Why is she called the Scarlet Witch?
Simple; she's a witch who wields dark (scarlet) powers for good.
Alot of people attacked Whedon for ditching the Roma stuff but it's not specifically essential IMHO; the key thing is her being an outsider.
>>82398261
What's SW like in Ultimate?
>>82396235
Abso-bloody-fucking-lutely great thread, OP. Do not be dissuaded, too often I and others have heard of Doom and Wanda's connection to magic beyond their learning and mutation due to their upbringing and far too often it's seldom elaborated on. Interesting to hear from your research how it adds up.
>very much a Magneto family proponent
gross
>>82398306
Boring, really.
>>82398306
Oh I just got it. Gypsy Danger. Funny.
Also Ultimate SW was... strange. There wasincest. Not a route I would have recommended.
>>82398230
Whedon pretty much saved Wanda; the only reason she re-appeared in the comics was because of Whedon (Wanda returned to comics around the time Olsen's casting was announced).
And...whitewash or not Olsen has an ephereal look that really fits Wanda. Like Swinton, she conveys the right aura even if the character's appearance/gender is different.
>>82399073
Even Whedon says he fucked up those movies. He's resigned. Just give it up.
Busiek's definition of her powers is pretty great, and you have that dynamic with Chthon which is dynamite; like Galactus and Silver Surfer but with much more conflict. So much potential yet pissed away by Marvel writers and editorial.
She's one of the few female superheroes who has a great standout arch enemy.
>>82399162
True but he did that one thing right, for all his many faults.
>>82396235
I don't care for this comic but I'm in total agreement about the covers, they've been gorgeous.
>>82397436
To be fair, James Robinson is English and apparently of partly Irish direct descent, so you can't fucking blame this one on Americans.
>>82396235
>>82396674
>>82396871
>>82397112
>>82397306
>>82397436
Thank you for putting this much effort into posting.
>>82397652
There are a bunch of comics site you could submit this to as an article.
>>82398261
It's absolutely essential. It's just like saying Luke Cage doesn't have to be black, what's important is him being a minority of some sort.
Romani people are so amazingly marginalised and poorly represented in the media this was relaly important.
>>82399073
That's not true, Children's Crusade was before that. She was always going to return. Scarlet Witch has been one of the most consistent Avengers.
>>82399387
I don't think I ever read all of Busiek's run, I really shut.
>>82399722
That makes it all the more bizarre, and maddening since the English sort of tried to Genocide us, lol. Though I probably shouldn't use that word in a conversation about a Romani Jewish character(fuck retcons).
>>82399817
I feel like I really should at least co-write this with an actual Roma person, but I don't know any who've read the actual comic.
I really wish we'd have gotten an Earth's Mightiest Heroes with Wanda in Season 3. Would have been the best Wanda.The lack of her was one thing I disliked about that show, but I guess they had to use her in W&tXM.
>>82399957
If you've cultural experience of an ethnicity, you're already a lot more qualified than many people who already write articles like this.
>>82399928
here it is
https://twitter.com/JamesDRobinson/status/711637401739722752
>It's all good. BTW, I'm part Irish and grew up in Kilburn, so I've heard my share of accents. Where in Ireland are you from.
continues downthread
>>82399387
Bendis totally undid this and made Wanda insane which was really really fucking insulting.
I hate it because I really do like a lot of what Bendis has written, but he also does the most maddening shit when given free reign. He is very much the Whedon of comics.
>>82399957
Are you part of the damn culture or not? Write it couched in conditionals if you aren't sure the floor won't vanish out from under you.
>>82400021
I'm not ethnically Romani though, and the family that adopted me are somewhat outsiders in of themselves(then again, so is Wanda).
I don't know if getting adopted by Romani families is something that happens often either, I know of one other Irish woman who worked with a Kalderash family for several years. Because of how family oriented/close knit the culture is it can be hard to do any kind of work with them unless you're in some shape or form part of their little world.
At the end of the day I only spend maybe 10-12 hours a week with them and can walk away and be yet another white girl, so I don't feel like I'm super qualified to talk about the effects of stereotypes(unless it's against Irish people, lol).
>>82400027
Bleh, he's still a brit and it's still annoying me.
>>82400089
No, not really. But I am known in the community and was adopted by a family.
... it's complicated. But I am not Romani and would never claim to be. I just have more first hand experience than most people.
>>82400133
>>82400161
I don't care at all about your personal circumstances. If you think you have insight and analysis worth sharing beyond 4chan you should do that.
Robinson is super full of himself for sure.
>>82400197
Ok, I'll talk to my friend and see if I can put something together.
Where could I send it though? I also don't want to put up with a wave of anti-SJW/GG type abuse either.
> Bendis has Wanda go apeshit for no reason, over kids she never wanted and had gotten over, then has Strange shit on Wanda and stupidly say there's no such thing as Chaos Magic.
> Children's Crusade again ignores the most logical cause of Wanda's power surge (Chthon) in favour of the ass-pull "Life Force".
>>82397112
>was adopted by a Romani family
They're allowed to adopt?
>>82400297
What do you mean?
A woman I was working with called me her sister and told me she was "adopting" me, and that was that. Maybe it was she joking at first but we've been like family ever since. I've picked up her kids from school, called over when one of us needs cheering up, fallen asleep on top of her etc. etc.
it's actually terribly cute. she's small and round and adorable but also fierce as fuck.
>>82400585
>fallen asleep on top of her etc. etc.
>
>it's actually terribly cute. she's small and round and adorable but also fierce as fuck.
I like where this thread is going.
>>82400649
She's not my girlfriend lol, we're sisters. Women(esp. Roma women) can be pretty touchy feely and emotionally close with each other.
Roma are actually very conservative when it comes to LGBT stuff, though she's pretty open minded and likes the girl I'm crushing on rn.
>>82400685
Must make growing up as a gypsy dyke supremely awkward and frustrating.
>>82400747
Well, I know some LGBT Roma people but they live outside of the community. I don't know any within the community I work with. Again, they can be very emotionally intimate in a lot of ways so I guess that helps placate the need for a lesbian romance. Their culture also places a higher emphasis over family than seeking romance, though take what I say with a pinch of paprika. I'm not Roma, I didn't grow up in Romani culture so I couldn't really comment on what it's like all that much.
>>82401424
You must convince these people to recount their every sexual experience between the ages of 10-22, and publish them for the good of humanity.
>>82396235
story time?
>>82400287
>Bendis further has Jean freak out towards Wanda over shit she really had only so much control over due to being used as a plot device, later helped fix again as a plot device and ultimately has pointed out was fucking nonsense anyhow given how many mutant extinctions have happened on and off on top of the hypocrisy of Jean Grey accusing her of anything
>Pats himself on the back for ANOTHER witch hunt scene that's later just swept under the rug again
What is actually that asshole's problem? Like I can understand just writing whatever you like because you sell, but he seems to have a distinct need to shit thoroughly on things because he can get away with it not because he even wants to write it but because he knows someone doesn't want him to.
Then there was all that shit with Rogue and just fucking hell I can't take it. All this hollow internal conflict shit makes me livid. Sorry for Bendis derail if it happens, but I just needed to vent that because it was one of the several cases where he was clearly shameless about it. Young Jean, Wanda, Storm and Rogue all took a suicidal nose dive in character for some fucked up reason and it's never been justified or explained. It just keeps happening. If it were Emma I'd understand, she can get moody but goddammit everyone but her was losing their heads every 5 minutes. Kitty turned into an even bigger bitch than previously imaginable. Rachel and Storm started butting heads at one point for no reason.
EVERYONE BUT EMMA FROST
interesting thread
>>82396235
It's clear you put a lot of thought into this, and I appreciate it. I have little knowledge of Roma culture, but I got a slightly similar sense from this book too. Anyway, I'm overall underwhelmed by the soft retconning or whatever they're doing with this book. They seem to be writing what Wanda does with magic notably different from what we've seen before for her, and for the Marvel universe, and I'm not loving it.If it's chaos magic from Chthon, okay, that's one thing, and all her basic powers can come from that. But now, I'm not sure what they're saying her powers are. She seems to just pick and choose cultural rituals from various cultures in a way that makes no sense with what we've seen of magic in the Marvel U. It all seems very vague now what she can do and why.
Sounds like overall this is an issue of someone wanting to do something and not going all-in. Like he did care to google some shit, but he didn't really talk to/interview anyone to verify it and that's why a lot of the stuff seems kind of off in correctable ways.
>>82400240
>I also don't want to put up with a wave of anti-SJW/GG type abuse either.
Just use a pseudonym so either side can't harass you personally if they disagree. I'm not sure where you could send it in though.
>>82403739
He's just generally a poor writer.
>>82406076
this
besides Starman everything is shit
>>82406169
That was a reply to a Bendis post but you're not entire wrong on Robinson either.
>>82403739
It's extremely cool how almost everything mentioned in your post was done by writers that were not Bendis
what the fuck am I reading?
>>82397462
Wanda can explain away her own retcons so when the time comes Magsy will point out that it makes no sense that at no point did anyone compare their DNA and could she please stop making reality lie.
>>82405205
I really wish they would stick to Busiek's formula of Chthon and Chaos Magic (making her the mirror of Vishanti and Order Magic), as it's easily the best concept of Wanda's power.
It's like Busiek invented the wheel and the likes of Bendis, Remender, and Robinson keep insisting on square or brick-shaped wheels.
>>82408223
>It's like Busiek invented the wheel and the likes of Bendis, Remender, and Robinson keep insisting on square or brick-shaped wheels.
What issues do i read to get Busiek's Wanda? I'm actually curious now.
>>82400240
Shit, you may even want to hedge against fucktards getting up your ass about Roma having white privilege and you being a shitlord.
>>82408314
Busiek's and Perez's run was the late 1990s to early 2000's, I think.
>>82406054
Not bothered about the SJW call outs, it's pretty rare they form into an actual hate mob and I'm okay with being called out on stuff. But I don't know if Roma issues are a popular enough cause for there to be enough people to defend against potential backlash.
>>82408378
I don't think anyone would actually say that. I'm not afraid of an SJW bogeyman, I am afraid of the very real abuse that might be directed towards me or my Roma friends as I've experienced it countless times before.
One of the main issues is that I'll be called a white saviour for writing or having anything to do with the article. But not by the "SJWs", it's the anti-SJW types that do that because they think they're being clever and have you entrapped or some bullshit.
If I can figure out where to send it to though, I'll talk to one of my Roma friends and give it a go.
