Why is it that people laud Batman as having the greatest stable of villains when other heroes struggle to hold onto 1 or 2 really great villains? Is it the vaguely terrifying humanity of the Batrogues? Is it at least in part just a part of the "Batman is the greatest" groupthink?
What would it take to transform the enemies of Superman, Flash or Spiderman (who all have fairly known but not necessarily appreciated groups of enemies) into Batman-tier "great villains"?
>>82342503
It'd help if their respective companies would promote the other villains more. I realize that the Batvillains are everywhere because everyone loves them, but it's become a self-feeding cycle of people not being interested in other great villains because they hardly appear in anything.
>>82343780
Honestly, this is a major problem to me. We continually get Batman villains being promoted and used in various media and stories, and it just wears down the value of other villains if they haven't been seen for god knows how long.
>>82343780
Why do people keep blaming DC for the Batman over saturation? DC is constantly pushing other properties but the only characters people buy are Bat related, so it doesn't work.
>>82342503
Batman villains have variety. When I watched STAS after BTAS I always felt most of the villains are
- alien guy/gal who happens to be physically strong(er than Superman) to give an excuse for a devastating fistfight
- villain with one otherwise useless gimmick which is just happen to be blocking Supes powers
Aside from Luthor, Darkseid, Brainiac and maybe a handful I don't know of, they are either relaitively the same or so specilaized they are completely uninteresting. I never forget seeing Livewire the first time and thinking "Finally a cool villain!" only to found out later Timm just created her for the show.
>>82344257
And most of batman's villains are just cuckoo humans who are SO DERANGED. It's easy to pigeonhole characters with one-line summaries.
Honestly, the selection of enemies that Superman, Flash, Spiderman, hell even Green Arrow have is pretty diverse, it's just that aside from the top 5 (top 10 at best) people just don't try to invigorate other villains.
Let's remember that Mr Freeze was a nobody for decades until Timm/Dini went ahead and actually gave him a good origin/motivation. People need to Heart of Ice other villains, is all I think they really need.
>>82344202
Well it is DC's fault for not promoting other characters and their rogues. It is equally their fault for an increase of revenue from bat titles as well.
It can't not be their fault.
>>82342503
I dunno.
Spider-man villains are appreciated. Maybe not to the extent of Batvillains, but if I ask a random guy on the street to name 3 Spider-man villains, they'd be able to pull it off.
Same can't be said for Flash or Supes.
>>82342503
Writers need to get over themselves and use other people's villains. If you're new to a book, try using established villains instead of inventing your own. More appearances of a villain means more attachment to the character. Too many writers want to create their own original guy, rather than strengthening existing characters.
>>82345655
Luthor and Zod everyone can name. And I expect you'll get Doomsday or Batman named as the third now.
But the whole point is that you want characters to be cultivated more than just the Top 3 of a villain roster anyway. Let's be goddamn honest, Joker isn't exceptionally deep or intricate as a character. He has aspects that are complex to him, for certain, but not significantly more than other bad guys. And yet, here we are.
Same goes for basically all the Bat-Villains, they're just loved way more than others because MUH BATMAN. It's the standard Batpoison that harms the rest of the comic industry.
>>82342503
Dini & Timm?
>>82342503
I've always held the notion that Superman's rogues makes Batmans look like a pile of shit.
Batmans villain don't have much variety "I'm a crazy dude from Arkham, look at my gimmick!"
>>82345713
Pretty much this. You're not writing your own original hero, and you know why? Because you either couldn't sell your shitty ideas, in which case why are you trying to shoehorn them into an existing IP? Or you write for an established universe because you (presumably) enjoy the IP and want to tell stories about the heroes, so why the fuck do you feel the need to make up new villains when you can explore the hundreds or thousands of existing villains in new and interesting ways?
Honest to fucking god, if they slapped down an embargo for a year or two on Joker/Harley Quinn/Riddler/Penguin/Mr Freeze/Ivy/Luthor/Zod/Brainiac as anything more than minor supporting characters, we might actually get some more exploration of other characters. Which would be lovely.
>>82345616
>>82345616
>Well it is DC's fault for not promoting other characters and their rogues
Batman had a show in the 60's where it was possible to showcase his many different villians because they are all human so they have been in the public eye for decades. Couldn't do the same for anybody else
And it's not just a DC problem. Spider-Man was the only Marvel hero that anybody outside of comic fans could name more than 1 villian for
If before the MCU you asked a regular person who the villians for Iron Man, Cap, Thor or Hulk were they wouldn't be able to tell you. You might get Hitler for Cap if you're lucky
>>82345655
People can do Superman with Luthor, Zod and Doomsday
>>82342503
I don't recognise half these guys and I am interested to know who they are. Any /co/mrades willing to help out a guy not overly versed in Superman lore?
>>82345859
I'm not saying it's a bad thing or a good thing. It's just clearly DC's fault.
>>82345878
And now if you're even vaguely into the genre you can name Reverse Flash, Zoom and Captain Cold for Flash.
Of course, if you haven't watched the TV show, either the 90s or the new one, then yeah you'd have no clue about Flash foes.
Shame because they're super fun.
>>82345879
Describe a few and I'll help you out
>>82344351
Green Arrow villains are shit! SHIT!
>>82345909
Well yes and no. DC has had other shows and movies back in the day they should have taken a few risks. JLU was a great showcase for their characters. I became a Question fan thanks to that cartoon but that was the time to have a Green Lantern or Flash spinoff. The Flash episode of JLU always looked like a back door pilot to me
>>82342503
I've watched Max Fleischer's Superman and Superman The Animated Series but I don't know where that Prankster is from. Could someone please tell me? I want to watch that era of Superman cartoons.
>>82345616
What more could they do? Characters besides Batman have comics, tv shows(a lot, I can't even keep up with them anymore), and upcoming movies. What more could they do to please you?
>>82345983
Pic related is the ones I think I know, but I may have fucked some up. I expect people like Ruin or Black Zero will be in there too, but I can't recognise them.
>>82346064
I'm guessing the 60s/70s. Superfriends or New Superman Adventures or something like that.
>>82342503
Where's Nuclear Man, you fucking chump? How can you leave out one of Superman's greatest foes?
>>82346288
I didn't assemble the picture. Like I'd spend that long when I could just google "Superman villains".
>>82344351
Giving that Heart of Ice treatment to other villains is easier said than done though.
I'm just pulling shit out my ass but could it be because a lot of the Batman villains have both a really strong theme and either a really iconic or memorable performance associated with them people grew up with? I will 100% admit I base this entirely on watching BTAS as a kid, and I can STILL hear those voices and mannerisms in my head.
Just looking at that Superman image I recognise the 'big' ones but a lot of them look like they got pulled out of a Champions Online character generator, and I spot maybe three or four that are clearly "Superman, but evil/from another dimension/a robot" ones.
>>82346256
>magpie
That's Lashina of the Female Furies. Have you watched Superman The Animated Series? If not I suggest you do.
>>82346256
The redhead is the waifu of mr mxyzptlk. Also the half face guy right to luthor is Metallo too I think.
I think most of the other villains are usually too gimmicky, made too specific to counter a meta's powers, whereas Batman has none and so they have more freedom.
>>82346315
Fuck. I thought Magpie might have been a bit too recent. I haven't watched STAS in a long time, I'm just finishing Season 1 again atm, just watched Livewire and about to start Speed Demons.
I'm generally awful with the New Gods and Darkseid's minions, I forget who is who very easily.
>>82346332
Oh, is that Roger Corben then? I had no idea who it was, I thought I'd ruled out most of the cyborgs I could remember.
>>82346305
>both a really strong theme and either a really iconic or memorable performance
Something like this. Clown, flower girl, two faced guy, penguin guy etc.
While Supermans opponents are mostly strong guy, strong monster, smart guy, smart monster, smart strong monster etc...
>>82346372
Military despot from Krypton, alien supercomputer, Genius businessman, kryptonite robot, robot superman, superbatman, reverse superman, unkillable monster, etc etc.
The only reason themes work for Batman is that he's a normal guy so the villains literally need themes to delineate them from "this other crazy criminal who is stealing jewels/robbing bank/arms dealing/murdering"
>>82346332
>>82346256
The halfface guy next to Luthor is Tharok. He's one of the Fatal Five. Technically a Legion villian I guess but the legion are are extension of Superman lore
>>82346799
I think Luthor fits more in the top row than Darkseid to be honest
>>82342503
jesus christ did whoever make this pic not read anything supes beside the tv show?
>>82345859
A lot of people underestimate the influence of that show just for getting these dudes in the public consciousness.
Its almost crazy to think about having that strong a stable of guest stars for campy tv now a days.
>>82348957
Looks to me like there are a good number of non-STAS villains there. Which truly excellent villains that are worthy of being in the picture do you think were left out?
I know for sure that I don't see Imperex, Ruin or Black Zero but I don't see many major foes missing from there. The picture was made a while back too. Like 5 or 7 years I think?
>>82349071
Imperiex is there. Under Steppenwolf and next to granny goodness
>>82345655
>Spider-man villains are appreciated
Spider-man has fucking terrible villains mate.
>>82345856
>embargo Penguin
fuck you. If anything Penguin needs to get Joker's role for a few years as the recurring villain.
>>82345859
>If before the MCU you asked a regular person who the villians for Iron Man, Cap, Thor or Hulk were they wouldn't be able to tell you.
Can anybody even do that now?
>>82346256
"Magpie" is Lashina. Left of Bruno is Desaad. "Big Bertha" is Stompa. Left of Atomic Skull is Mad Harriet.
>>82346370
Magpie has been around for ages. She just had a different design.
Batman's villains, like Batman, are overrated and shoved down your throat so you think they are good. Crazy gimmick guy is done a thousand times. At least Superman has a pretty diverse group of villains with varying powers.
>>82349272
Iron Monger, Whiplash, Mandarin, The Destroyer, Loki, Malekith, Red Skull, Hydra, Arno the Robot, Baron Zemo, Crossbones, Baron Von Strucker, Tony Stark, Steve Rogers
As a complete Marvel casual/newb I can now name that many Iron Man/Thor/Captain America villains.
>>82349417
>Baron Von Strucker
who
>Arno the Robot
who
>Whiplash, Iron Monger
Are these even named in the movies?
And half of those are dead and never coming back. I'd hardly call them iconic.
>>82342503
>at least in part just a part of the "Batman is the greatest"
Basically. Batman's villains aren't really that fantastic, it's just that he's a really popular property. When you're popular your Rogues Gallery gets more exposure and gets built up better.
Same with Supes. Lex is probably one of the blandest concepts for a villain but he's gotten tons of exposure, tons of character building just because he's the classic enemy of a classic hero.
>>82346256
Next two to Cyborg Superman are Morlun and Match. Guy with monocle is Virman Vundabar.
Can we all agree that Green Lantern has the most underrated rogues gallery? Evil Star, Black Hand, Sonar, Goldface, Dr. Polaris, the Shark, Effigy and Alex Nero are all great, but severely underused.
If there's one thing I'll give Venditti credit for, it's that he's been using a few of them, at least.
>>82342503
>all those Apokolips members
>no Glorious Godfrey
What a load
>>82349837
Get fucked. Truly unappreciated is Captain Marvel's rogues gallery. Many of them haven't been seen in decades.
>>82349837
most people just want to use enemy lanterns nowadays
>>82349985
Fine. One of the most, Mr. Hostile. You have good taste in rogues though.
>>82349985
God that convergence Captain Marvel bit was AMAZING. I didn't even know King Kull was a caveman SCIENTIST.
>>82350047
Haha okay, sorry. The Green Lanterns do have an interesting RG between them, though, this is true. Too bad GLTAS sunk so we didn't get to see them being great.
>>82350096
Kull is goddamn fantastic.
>>82350184
Mister Atom being more Bender than Terminator is also incredible and I have no idea why they got rid of his personality in almost all of his modern incarnations.
>>82350184
Yeah I remember people being a bit worried that as cool as the Sinestro Corps were, a whole rainbow of lanterns would take over the setting.
and well look what happened.
>>82342503
Repetition.
Batman's villains are iconic because he has had more media outside comics than any other, so his villains have become ingrained into the public consciousness.
Superman is #2, but who's the only one that gets constantly used? Lex. They might throw a Metallo episode or two in there, but Lex is basically a supporting character in Superman's world. He's there all day, every day. Most other villains in Superman's world revolve around Lex. So it's Lex > not enough >'s in the world > Everyone Else.
A lot of times, all it takes to make a villain memorable is one person going "alright, we're taking this stupid-ass villain and fixing him". Mr. Freeze is a good example. I think a big reason that Batman's rogue gallery is as popular as it is is largely due to how it keeps evolving with the times because the characters are reinterpreted so often. Spider-man's villains have a bad habit of people constantly trying to bring them back to their roots rather than push them forward.
>>82351216
The problem is getting other writers to follow up on or even bother to read a villain revamp, which is another thing Spider-Man villains suffer from.
The Gauntlet was great but have we seen new, feral-smart Lizard or non-joke Rhino since then?
>>82342503
I don't think there's any real formula to it, I'd just say you make them unique. Most of Iron Man's villains are communists in fancy suits, but the only one they remember is the Crimson Dynamo. Don't just copy paste stock comic book villains.
Also give them a reason why they're a threat to that character in particular. That's how people associate the heroes with their villains. For example, Iron Man's Blizzard and The Flash's Captain Cold are pretty much identical at a glance, but people remember Captain Cold because he's able to actually counteract The Flash using his gun. Well, that and the fact that he was on the Legion of Doom repping for the Rogues.
>>82342503
Diversity. The villains have to be unique, not just in looks and powerset but also in abilities and motives.
This is why Iron Man has a shitty rogues gallery, all his villains are just him with different colored armor.
>>82351709
That's not true.
The only villains anyone USES lately are him in different colored armor except for Ghost who's stuck as a Thunderbolt.
>>82351216
AA's villain revampts are really underrated. I didn't like Mandarin in armor-I felt like he should've worn less as he got more rings, personally, but eh-but I loved what they did with Madame Masque, Blizzard, Living Laser, and Crimson Dynamo.
On the other hand the number of Iron Man villains they made one shot Makuan guardians was super lame.
>>82351709
Iron Man has enormous numbers of foes who aren't "evil Iron Man version X", It's just that for some absurd reason people shy away from using any non-tech villains that aren't the Mandarin.
>>82352595
Yeah, I dunno why, Tony going up against something not in his wheelhouse is always a good story.
Also when's the last time Tony's fought a giant monster by himself?
>>82342503
>Why is it that people laud Batman as having the greatest stable of villains when other heroes struggle to hold onto 1 or 2 really great villains?
Almost all of Batman's foes fall into one or more distinct themes
There are
1. Animal themed (Catwoman, Killer Croc, Killer Moth, Firefly)
2. Face themed (Two-Face, Hush, Black Mask)
2. Game themed (Joker, Riddler, Mad Hatter)
4. Elemental Themed (Clayface, Poison Ivy, Dr Phosphorous)
You get some doubles like Professor Pyg.
>Is it the vaguely terrifying humanity of the Batrogues? Is it at least in part just a part of the "Batman is the greatest" groupthink?
It's their thematic reflection to Batman that makes them compelling. Also the success of BTAS, and the films into popularizing them.
>What would it take to transform the enemies of Superman, Flash or Spiderman (who all have fairly known but not necessarily appreciated groups of enemies) into Batman-tier "great villains"?
Honestly? Get them in some films. There's been more than seven live action Superman movies and he almost always fights Lex Luthor or Zodd rather than anyone in his staple of villains.
There's many villain archetypes beyond the Brute and the Mastermind, connect more of Spider-Man's rogues to his personal life, almost all of Flash's Rogues are people he has not personal connection to, Superman has plenty of villains that are not utilized well.
>>82352833
Whenever Filmmakers talk about the need to weaken Superman to make him relatable to an audience (something I don't really agree with but that's a different debate), I always think of Metallo and Parasite.
One of whom's beating heart consists of a material that slowly kills Superman and is also a horrible cyborg. Johns giving Metallo different kinds of kryptonite was super clever and I'm blown away that they dropped that; what a great way to introduce different colored kryptonite, too, by having Superman's enemy rip his chest open and shove a new kind of death in his face!
Parasite is an amazing villain for a more grounded Superman movie; he doesn't JUST steal Superman's powers, he can steal the life force, strength, memories, and identity of anyone he touches. He could be anyone, anywhere, slowly hunting Superman to force him in a position where he can live the rest of his life in agony, as a living battery fueling the Parasite's godhood.
Both of these characters, by their very nature, force Superman into a position of weakness; he can't just fly around and brute force these problems, he has to use his wits. That's a good conflict for a film! Parasite especially has that whole, "Stealing Superman's power for evil." angle that I refuse to believe a competent filmmaker can't exploit.
>>82353061
>Whenever Filmmakers talk about the need to weaken Superman to make him relatable to an audience (something I don't really agree with but that's a different debate), I always think of Metallo and Parasite.
Parasite works great because he can gain the powers of Superman and have parasite duplicates, etc.
The John Corben Metallo was a love interest for Lois Lane and was a doppelganger of sorts to Clark Kent.
They're both viable.
>One of whom's beating heart consists of a material that slowly kills Superman and is also a horrible cyborg. Johns giving Metallo different kinds of kryptonite was super clever and I'm blown away that they dropped that; what a great way to introduce different colored kryptonite, too, by having Superman's enemy rip his chest open and shove a new kind of death in his face!
The Superman 2000 pitch from back in the day wanted to give Metallo Red Kryptonite specifically.
>Parasite is an amazing villain for a more grounded Superman movie; he doesn't JUST steal Superman's powers, he can steal the life force, strength, memories, and identity of anyone he touches. He could be anyone, anywhere, slowly hunting Superman to force him in a position where he can live the rest of his life in agony, as a living battery fueling the Parasite's godhood.
>Both of these characters, by their very nature, force Superman into a position of weakness; he can't just fly around and brute force these problems, he has to use his wits. That's a good conflict for a film! Parasite especially has that whole, "Stealing Superman's power for evil." angle that I refuse to believe a competent filmmaker can't exploit.
Yeah.
>>82353061
The fact that Parasite could potentially, with a single touch, learn Superman's secret identity and target him that way means that I am completely baffled he hasn't been used as a real serious villain in any movie, show or major arc that I recall.
And John Corben would be great as a soldier who helps Superman as part of a government military perimeter/emergency response team when X Dangerous Event takes place before being badly injured and given the Metallo body.
Seriously, the idea of Corben slowly losing his sense of self because he can no longer enjoy any physical sensation at all is eerie and compelling, even without getting into the kryptonite heart. Having him start as a sort of anti-hero who falls more into the Metallo role and actually capitalising on his kryptonite heart after lightheartedly joking with Superman about it earlier would be great.
>"John, I heard the news. The docs say you're doing great, I'm so glad to hear it!"
>"Thanks Superman. The not being able to feel anything is a bit weird, but at least I don't have to taste the hospital food, right?"
>Laff laff laff
>"It's good to see you're feeling in such high spirits, John. You sacrificed a lot to help out, and you deserve to be happy. I even hear they gave you a new heart! If we ever have problems with the Phantom Zone releasing some more wannabe General Zod tryhards, I hope you'll have my back."
>"No worries, Superman. I'd be happy to kryptoblast some rogue alien menaces!"
>"Well, just make sure you watch where you point that thing while I'm around okay?"
>Laff laff laff
>>82353986
I have a lot of affection for S;TAS's mercenary who just gets WORSE version of Corben, but I do like that idea. Superman losing a friend to a life of crime could be a very fun conflict to see on screen, too.
>>82349071
Black Zero is there. The top middle, just to the left of the exact middle. Although that's the "evil Kon-El from Hypertime" version rather than the original Kryptonian terrorist, I think.
This is now a "Villains Who Would Work In A Superman Film (But Aren't Lex, Zod or A Superpowered Alien Menace)" thread.
>>82342503
I like Supes's rogues gallery, the main problem is power consistency. How is Metallo or Parasite supposed to be effective against one who is capable of lifting a planet or fighting equally with Darkseid.
I love the Rogues though
>>82356459
By draining his power obviously.
>>82349417
Honestly think you are overestimating the influence of a lot of these.
for Iron Man, I don't think Iron Monger was even named. Whiplash, eh, pretty forgetable. I think people would remember Mandarin simply because of the twist.
Destroyer and Malekisth are throwaways. Loki is the only notable Thor villain.
I'll agree that Red Skull is memorable but I haven't seen civil war to know whether Zemo or Corssbones make a big enough appearance. No one remembers Strucker.
>>82356610
I do and I knew none of them before rhe movies, nor particularly discussed them. I just remember names I guess. I lnpw Iron Monger and some of the.other names were mentioned in promo materials or articles or interviews around the time of the movies.
>>82356459
You literally named two of the very few who it makes sense can stand up to Superman despite the power difference because they drain him of his powers. Nice job.
>>82356482
Yeah but it's a tad cliche if that is solely the way Superman is ever vulnerable.
I already think Green Kryptonite is overused.
>>82356806
I don't necessarily agree. The effectiveness of Kryptonite is woefully inconsistent.
Similarly why should Parasite be a direct threat to someone who flies, is hypersonic and has ranged attacks? Once his power runs out he's fucked.
>>82356963
Surprise attacks. Also Parasite can sometimes absorb thermal and kinetic energy.
>>82356963
He's a threat because he can know Clark's identity and attack him through loved ones?
Seems compelling to me.
>>82357009
I can get behind that, but then doesn't Supes power have to be reduced from a scale where he can move planets?
>>82342503
It's all about personality and actions. A villain doesn't need to be sympathetic to be a great villain, it simply makes the job of making a villain like able easier. It's about presentation of the villain, the character's actions and interactions with others.
Going by the DCAU, look at Mr. Freeze and Two Face, then look at Darkseid and Mongul. All of them are fondly looked at, but it's all about how memorable they made themselves. In the span of 20 minutes, Mongul made himself a bigger threat than most villains in the entire DCAU series, and did it with poise, elegance, and a fantastic performance by Eric Roberts. He wasn't sympathetic or reasonable, but he was such a threat and so irredeemable that you couldn't help but love the guy.
>>82346256
The guy with the red hair and gold suit at the top is Alexander Luthor Jr.
>>82357849
That was literally what I wrote.
>Whenever Filmmakers talk about the need to weaken Superman to make him relatable to an audience (something I don't really agree with but that's a different debate), I always think of Metallo and Parasite.
>Parasite is an amazing villain for a more grounded Superman movie
The whole idea of such a film is Superman trying to find a way to slow down or stop the Parasite as indirectly as possible, because if he gets stuck in a fight with Parasite Rudy literally gets stronger the longer they fight. It forces Superman to face a threat differently than his SO.
>Darkseid
>A Superman villain
FUCKING STOP
>>82358640
that ship sailed years ago, mate
Spidey villains are better and had more character development throughout both characters' history. Yes they're stupid but they are far more dimensional. Batman villains are mostly carbon copy of theirselves characterization wise. Of course Spider-Man has similar villains like Venom and Carnage but it's mostly visual. Even if it's visual, it still is more interesting. Batman's rogues gallery other than Joker doesn shine because of over saturation of Joker.
>>82349669
Whiplash was in the second movie if you've forgotten.
There was a recent revamp of Ghost that would fit well in the movie verse.
I was skeptical when you guys suggested a Parasite movie, but the more you guys talk about it, the more on board I am. As a non Superman fan I would heavily consider watching it.
>>82353061
That's the problem. Who in Hollywood is competent and would also appreciate the characters without warping them for marketability? The latter has always been the bigger problem looking at the remake machine these days.
>>82342503
>What would it take to transform the enemies of Superman, Flash or Spiderman (who all have fairly known but not necessarily appreciated groups of enemies) into Batman-tier "great villains"?
But what if I think that some of those, like the Flash or Spider-Man, have rogues on par with Batman?
>>82356459
>I lover the Rogues though.
It's the same policy as the Rogues: they have powers/abilities that directly counter Superman.
Metall.o is powered by a chunk of Kryptonite and Parasite absorbs power through touch. These are both things that give Superman a challenge regardless of their actual physical strength compared to his.
