Really? 15 minutes left and still no thread?
>Episode
Adventure Time S07E31 - I Am A Sword
>Synopsis:
When Finn starts having nightmares about his missing Finn sword, he wonders if they are actually real.
Title Card designed by Sam Alden & painted by Joy Ang
>STREAM HERE: http://www.stream2watch.co/live-now/live-tv/us/cartoon-network-live-stream
If it doesn't work, wait for Mard for the MEGA upload. It should come within an hour of the episode airing.
>MEGA for Season 7 Episodes, so far.
https://mega.nz/#F!GcAjGIga!z4q32O70Z6HkF1TIk7AD3Q
Also airing is the AT short, Frog Seasons: Winter.
>>82143560
Cautiously hyped, Jesse and Same have been doing great stuff this season but the preview had Finn acting like a dumbass. Still a good chance it'll be good though.
'Is That You?' aired November, 25th 2014.
This episode was announced in August of last year.
Only ten minutes until we finally get an episode focused on the Finn Sword! At this stage it can't possibly live up to my anticipation.
>>82143560
stream 4 should be working
Good, didn't think this was up, new RS was good and it's short is about to show, hope this is good too.
>>82143560
Ready for the 4 month hiatus
>>82143771
This is a joke right
>>82143803
yea, he's just assuming
>>82143771
How did Finn manage to lose his arm in a world made entire out of pillows
it's on
maaaan you dont fuck around like that
Oh Jake, you know him so well.
how could he not draw the mouth
oh man, the shark has been reeeplaced
off to a gay start so far
oh dude.. bandit princess
>loan
hehehehe
>Finn playing twine games
BandyP is a total butternose
Holy shit, this is crazy.
I want to punish bandit princess's butthole
WHY DON'T YOU JUST RAPE THE BANDIT PRINCESS, FINN?
What happens to chickens guys??
the cats
BOX PRINCE !
>>82144157
They also lose their heads?
holy clitbiscuits, this is like when the green ranger fought the white ranger
THE GRASS SWORD RETURNS
Oh shit that happened
OH DAMN DUDE SHITS FUCKED
>grass sword
AW SHIT
>that crap
RIP
Sensing a new overpowered Finn+grass sword
Wow, that just fucking happened
>>82143859
severe rugburn
gg finn
Well that was kind of a lame ending.
talk about fucking blueballing
What, that was it? Jesus.
Oh shit dude that was crazy
Finn has a hard life.
FUCK i missed it
how long till mega
Yep, Finn suffering episode, god DAMN. The streak for the writers doing it is unbroken.
Finn wanted to protect that thing all the time and was sad whenever he thought about loosing it or breaking it, then this shit happens.
INADEQUATE CLOSURE!!
holy shit dude.. i can't believe.. i don't even..
>>82144227
yeah this some sort of fusion ultra sword
and Bandit Princess gun git it
>It just ends like that
for those watching, is it a good episode?
Who did the voice of Bandit Princess? It sounds super familiar but I just can't place it.
I missed the first few minutes, did he lose the finn sword this ep or did it happen before this ep?
So I liked most of that episode but the part in the middle with Bandit Princess was pretty weak and what an ending.
>After fucking 16 months the Finn Sword is finally focused on
>Fucking dies immediately
BRAVE ADVENTURE TIME
That being said the rest of it was cool, basically all the Finn/Jake/BMO bits were funny and had good dialogue, I liked Finn's modern game. Seeing callbacks to Gut Grinder and Box Prince was cool too, alongside grass sword coming back again. Too bad it did fuck all.
Not sure how I rank it but it's probably 7/10 for me, pretty good but had some problems.
>>82144324
Same. someone please answer this for me
waiting for madridista
>>82144281
Being Finn nowadays is suffering
>Can't get Bubblegum due to lack of interest
>Lost Flame Princess to FUCKING CINNAMON BUN OF ALL PEOPLE.
>Doesn't even get to have to have fun on adventures, just suffer
>>82144324
If you only missed the first few minutes you should know?
I kind of like the way that Finn has like a physic connection with his blade, that's pretty neat.
Out of everything with the ending I'm more mad that Bandit Princess just got away and got no Karma or whatever.
>>82144323
Amy Sedaris
>>82144320
Yes
>>82144320
yes
Every time Finn calls himself Mertens I wince. Such a shitty sounding name and Finn the Human is like 20 times cooler sounding.
>all these good episodes the last few weeks
>that ending just now
>my fearection towards the bandit princess
Why didn't all this shit happened 1 season ago?!
>>82144329
I feel like the next episode or the one after that will provide closure to a lot of the promising plot points left in this episode. And it's gonna result in Finn having an extremely badass sword and we'll see Finn sword more oftenly acknowledged
>it's the seabear technique
>>82144320
maybe
>>82144392
>>82144388
that's 2 Yes's to 1 No.
I'll wait for the mega expecting good things
>>82144406
probably some combination of finnsword and grass sword..
>>82144427
something dumb and very modern at-ish shit happened but considering the ending it will be elaborated on in later episodes
>>82144406
That's not how this show works dude.
Hope you're excited to see the Finn sword plot continued in the middle of season 8 at best.
>2 back to back episodes with finn suffering
Charlie's apparently a game developer now
>>82144475
>2 back to back episodes with a cat being killed
Finn sword is by far the shittiest sword Finn's had which stinks because it has the potential to be really cool.
He just never uses the damn thing and the writers don't care enough to elaborate further on it (except for now and then it dies, amazing).
>>82144522
>2 back to back episodes of someone dying
>>82144388
Thank you.
Download link here!
https://mega.nz/#!Tx8XyLgB!2Dc9EimdbeK0AvvpXq-klK5lPI8HomakdVqHibSn3OA
>>82144329
Out of the eight remaining season 7 episodes, the only one that sounds like it could be related is Dignified.
Dignified
Bun Bun
Normal Man
Elemental
Five Short Tables
The Music Hole
Preboot
Reboot
What's with all the cat stuff
>>82144553
fuck off
>>82144553
Wow, that was fast. Thank you based Madridista!
>>82144467
oh i didnt mean the NEXT episode i meant the next finn sword episode. i should have clarified because all my favorite story lines since season 2 and 3 have gotten attention once a season
>>82144553
love ya
>>82144553
Thanks bro.
>>82144553
Based
>>82144572
Alright so just how in the world did this leak? someone sneak into CN studios?
>>82144580
>>82144578
It's an old promo commercial they used before.
Not sure why they brought it back, probably because it means no effort or money to make a new one
>>82144572
>Preboot
>Reboot
Wait, What?
>>82144553
How did you do it that fast?
>>82144536
>yfw the finn sword merges with the leaf sword and revives into a finn made of the same shit the leaf sword is
>for one episode where he screams in agony constantly until real finn kills him or absorbs him or some stupid AT shit just to end his suffering and then we get another 3 seasons of depression
>>82144509
i missed that. was it a line?
>>82144553
thanks man, much appreciated
>>82144572
my money's on elemental
Alright stopped watching the stream since the RS episode, I can't stand this one. I fucking hate how pretentious TV is in this.
Does no one else see the retarded fault of finding something in a drawer in his parents house, eating the food inside, and selling the box?
>>82144653
Most likely the season finale.Honestly part of me is saying that Finn is just gonna be knocked out until those episodes and then Jake tries to do something to wake finn up that ends up causing him and maybe finn to go back to the Pilot and then just a reboot
>>82144717
That one sounds like Flame Princess if they actually bothered to give her an episode this season.
>>82144717
Same, grass after all.
Though I also have a strong support for it being the fionna and cake episode of the season (they said there is one) and it could be about flame prince.
Or Bun Bun, and it be about female cinnamon bun
>>82144732
I would like that. I finally dropped this show since the finale with finn's dad leaving the universe or whatever.
>>82144822
>it's a "finale was bad and I dropped it!" post
Alright, ready when you are!
I liked that episode but it was a pretty flaccid one to end this stretch of episodes for.
Oh well, see you boys in like 3 months I guess.
>>82144727
>Does no one else see the retarded fault of finding something in a drawer in his parents house, eating the food inside, and selling the box?
literally the entire point of the episode. i guess the 'pretense' was too intense for you
>>82144732
i loved it when the comic timetraveled to the pilot
>>82144732
I will quit the show if it is a full-on reboot. You can't reboot mid-show, even when you've fucked up as much as AT has.
>>82144860
i still remember when i drew all of finn's swords as swordgirls, as his harem.. with the original one being kinda mad he'd just hucked her into a 5-d portal and shit like that..
then I drew the grass sword as a girl clinging tightly to finn and visiting the grave of the blood sword
then the finn sword thing happened and i don't even know what to do
>>82144875
Not really no, he did it without consequence of actually being a jerk and doing that shit and it just got the attention of a rainicorn, then shit happened. He never got in trouble for doing that shit because it didn't matter since worse things were happening.
Sword should've went in.
>>82144943
>He never got in trouble for doing that shit because it didn't matter since worse things were happening.
the worse things happening were the getting-in-trouble. have you never heard a fairytale before?
>>82144860
Oh, and someone requested that I draw Bubblegum wearing Melona's outfit from Queen's Blade, so here's that!
>>82144943
That is a very awkward way to hold a sword Bandit Princess
>>82145008
daaamn great job
makin me miss the good old fanartin' days
i think this has been done before actually. i wanna say i've seen it. or something where her hair held her tits
>>82144935
pretty obvious, just make it a sexy qt fionna
>>82144580
>Telling based Madridista to fuck off
Nigger, are you off your pills?
>>82145011
that's what happens when you equip a weapon not meant for your class!
>>82144860
Ay Dabble do what this guy's taking about >>82144935, Finn sword but like as a cute lady.
Just doing Fionna is really boring but I'm not sure what else you could do but go nuts I guess, I just wanna have the harem completed. Do it for Finn sword (taken too soon).
>>82144693
BMO's "modern video game" was made by Charlie or something
when is the episode on?
have i missed it?
Holy shit the Grass Sword coming back got me hyped as fuck, I cannot wait for the next episode.
The humor was really good.
9 out of 10 for me
>>82145056
if people are really unironically offended at that post then 4chan is dead. Not the anon that posted it but I think it's humor derived from the fact that Mad gets near unequivocal praise all the time, thereby making a random insult with no context kind of funny in a random "why the fuck would you post that" sort of way. Although maybe I'm overlooking it and they just replied to he wrong person
>>82144553
YOU'RE THE BEST
ALSO THIS EPISODE WAS GREAT
my rating is 8.5/10
Has Finn been hiding the existence of Finn sword's sentience from Jake for some reason, or has he just never told him (for some reason)?
Jake's consistently been questioning the Finn sword since Finn got it and I have no idea why Finn wouldn't just tell his bro.
>>82145202
Well it was a very subtle joke then.
>>82144329
I don't think Finn Sword is dead.
Given the light at the end, I believe Finn Sword is going to come back to life with grass powers.
Which would be radical as fuck.
>>82144227
This.
new Finn Grass Sword is going to be tight as fuck.
>>82145264
I think he just never told him cause he assumed Jake knew about it already
What could a GrassFinn Sword accomplish that Finn couldn't accomplish with his grass arm and Finn Sword?
That was a weird sentence.
okay so.. these shorts make no sense, right?
>>82144388
>>82144392
Thank you guys. It was a good episode.
>>82145202
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.
>>82145423
fair enough
>>82145406
I hold to the belief that every single short is in its own continuity.
I can't really think of any other logical reason that Finn and Jake would keep following Mr Frog even after they saw him put on the crown. Like, they know what happens why are they still bothering?
the life
Life????
>The Frog was Life
Didnt see that one coming...
>>82145008
Hnnng you draw breasts perfectly.
How about something with Marceline and PB with their breasts prominent?
Or if you're still wanting to do that "tonight's episode" thing, Finn double fighting with the grass sword and the (pre break) Finn sword?
>>82145394
Grass finn clone that changes its entire body into stupid comical weapons
>>82144672
I was just thinking how cool it would be if Finn basically gained a the Finn sword as a stand/doppelganger.
As in Finn-Sword Finn summons a body made of grass to wield the Finn Sword, while OG-Finn deals damage alongside using the Grass Word.
>>82145008
Do you have a tumbr or DA or anywhere where you post all your art?
>>82145008
>dem bubblegum tiddies
>dat adorable pose
HNNNNNNGAHHH
I laughed at the hangnail and mortgage jokes.
I think pretty much all of the jokes this ep are decent or above.
>>82145311
No, he's constantly been asking and overlooking the living aspect of the sword. He still didn't know about it when it died.
Did Finn go into a coma or something at the end of this episode?
>>82145670
He passed out, he saw himself die after he killed himself.
>>82143771
the hiatus makes sense.
I'm not even trying to complain for the sake of, but I'm tired of seeing this guy suffer so much. It's actually happening WAY to often and I'm sick of it. Having an episode where he was actually depressed and went to the doctor for it was bad enough, but having him kill another form of himself? He's fucking dead, jim.
>>82145680
Him and Finn Sword are spiritually linked. So yeah he passed out, but I think it's more than a normal "pass out".
>>82145730
don't worry
>>82145278
Does Finn cry at any point?
Box kingdom is my favorite kingdom
would totally make a donut steel for
Here's today's Frog Seasons:
https://youtu.be/VdQtepMbHic
Looks like the show will go on hiatus until further notice. The last Frog Seasons short will air next week titled, "Frog Seasons: Spring (again)."
>>82145730
never forget. I know it's a cartoon and they're allowed to exaggerated shit like this, but look at the way he's fucking walking
>>82145827
Thank you Mads, love using you for the shorts.
>>82145756
I was actually referring to normal passing out after him committing the act.
>>82145827
So is Regular Time and Adventure Show block dead? New RS episodes are still going though
>>82145827
What happened with the thing where Jake stole it and they were in the treehouse?
Is Box Prince dead?
>>82145827
2deep4me
That bitch just destroyed like half the Ice Kingdom, whatta cunt.
>>82145827
Finn just keeps missing everything.
Why was RS' credits starting after the new AT? Do they consider it all a 2 hour program?
>>82145896
A short trip to the Stationary kingdom, and he'll be patched up, good as new.
>>82145848
I think Adventure Time might go off for a week Regular Show can catch up with Adventure Time's number of episodes this season. Right now Regular Show only has aired 28/39 of this season's episodes and Adventure Time has aired 31/39 of this season's episodes. They might want to sync them up for scheduling purposes.
>>82144385
Thats not how life works
I watch adventure time to forget my terrible life, not witness somebody else's terrible times.
Jake's fantastic sentence about Finn's dreams (breakup, Lich attack, me dying, other breakup, growing up, spiders) was amazing and by far the best part of the episode.
Jake was great this one.
>>82145896
recycle in peace
>>82145827
>>82144553
Based but the colors seem a little off this time
>>82146011
>you dying
>me dying
when will Jake's croak dream succeed?
>>82143859
that sword he had at the time looked pretty sharp
>>82146179
It did, except it wasn't a croak dream.
>that's a spot on drawing
>noticed how i got the mouth just right?
yo i feel some shots being fired at the artstyle
>>82145095
Eh, I gave it a shot.
>>82145507
Thanks, they're hard to draw but super-satisfying!
>>82145580
dabble-too.tumblr.com
>>82146295
Nice, it was kind of a hard concept but this is still cool. Digging the grass arm band(?) type things.
>>82146295
Breasts are hard to draw for you too? Holy shit it seems so easy but having it look right is fucking torture half the time.
Not trying to be that guy but it's one of your best aspects, not just because I like breasts, I mean because of how you don't overdo it like most artists.
That said all your aspects are wonderful.
>>82146295
whoa. that kinda really works.
>>82146295
Hnnng
You should drawBetty breasts
>>82144935
Trap sword?
Did anyone else catch the short halfway through the hour block?
>>82147224
wait what?
>>82146295
>>82145008
>>82144860
Nice, man! Hey you should do some PB in her science outfit (the white lab coat)
>>82147224
What the hell? This looks awesome.
>>82147224
>no "Adventure Time Presents"
shit mock title card, 2/10 see me after class
>>82144860
>>82145008
>>82146295
I'm surprised no one requested foot stuff with Bandit Princess, considering she took her sock off.
>>82147224
whaaaaaat
>>82147383
see "guardians fo sunshine" and "a glitch is a glitch"
>>82147224
>>82145827
it's right here
>>82147486
the short halfway through the hour block not the one after
>>82145507
I need to practice new angles more.
>>82146429
Thanks man! I usually draw the general shape to get the weight and the fiddle with them using the mesh transform tool if they need work.
Guys I haven't watched adventure time in two years what's going on currently?
>>82146295
So dude, where can I find the rest of your stuff, especially the sword stuffbefore I saw the PB you drew I thought your ColdFusion
>>82147465
glitch is guest animator and guardians is a legit mistake (I guess they thought it would mess up the video game theme but it would just make it seem like Adventure Time was the game developer or something so I don't get it)
Still, every title card worth its salt has that part. can't be legit without it.
>>82147612
Finn's misery
>>82147612
go watch it
>>82147615
in my wildest dreams i could draw like that
>>82147554
Was it the one they aired last week?
>>82147224
the save candy
>>82147610
H-H-H-H-HNNNHHHHHG
I FORGOT HOW MUCH OF A DEGENERATE I AM AND HOW MUCH I LOVE UNDER BOOBSTop shot down the shirt is still my top breast angle
You make these threads so much better man, always something nice.
>>82147615
His tumblr is up there
This is fake. It's fan art: http://lee2419.tumblr.com/post/143088953389
>>82147845
heh
>>82147783
Well shit, I'm retarded, thanks.
>>82146295
dabble you should become a teacher
for drawing these arts
i would learn from you
>>82147845
sadly looks great.
>>82147929
A class where I can learn to draw boobs..
>>82146295
>tfw I can animate to an extent
>can't design for shit
>you can draw like gold
You got it all.
>>82147224
DAILY REMINDER THAT 4CHAN IS DEAD IF YOU FUCKING NEWFAG KIDS CANT EVEN BOTHER TO GOOGLE SEARCH
ANYONE WITH A HINT OF INTELLIGENCE: ABANDON THIS SITE
SERIOUSLY LOOK AT HOW MANY REPLIES THIS GOT
/CO/MBLR IS A SHITHOLE FULL OF UNDERAGE FAGGOTS
>>82148224
lol
>browsing drawthread booru
>someone requested a continuation of the Jackie Buscarino fusion chart I made
>motherfucking based Dabble did the Susan/Vidalia fusion
This was a good day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDfLX4UfI8
>>82148295
the season finale was pseudo philosophical shit made for jesse to jack off to. no one cares.
>>82148118
Draw everyday for a year or two and people will drool over your drawing as well.
Literally everyone can be good at drawing if they're willing to challenge themselves and see the flaws in their own work.
>other breakup
Who did Jake mean by this?
>>82148605
1st breakup was referring to Bubblegum, second with FP.
Either that or first was Flame Princess and second was Huntress Wizard but I think the first theory is better.
>>82148605
Could be the huntress wizard thing, he'd probably refer to it as a breakup, or some other women he's dated.
>>82148605
If not FP then PB.
>>82148224
but where do i go if i got a "A HINT OF INTELLIGENCE"????
>>82148605
Huntress Wizard
They kissed, their relationship was there, just brief.
PB never reciprocated, you couldn't call it a breakup.
>>82148351
It's more of a tribute to the entirety of Season 6 (and a little of season 5).
>>82148789
>PB never reciprocated, you couldn't call it a breakup
You should watch the episode Too Young man.
Both reciprocation and breaking up happening in that one, and Finn told Jake he "got dumped."
>>82148503
everyone gets better at a different rate though.
>>82147610
i could stare at your art all day
>>82148605
it doesn't have to mean anything in specific, just a different nightmare about a different breakup, maybe with a girl who doesnt exist.
considering he's never really been with anyone
>>82148966
Why would Finn be dreaming about breaking up with a nonexistent girl when there's two girls we know exist who both had sort of break ups with him
fucking Occam's razor man, it's either Fp/Pb or Fp/Huntress
>>82148793
well season 5.2 and 6 were also shit so my point still stands: this shouldntve been madeglad to say s7 is marginally better tho, maybe make a tribute for stakes or something
Do you think BanditP can get registered if she asks real nicely? She's missing out on official princess benefits.
>>82149156
I don't know why people hate season 5.2 so much, I know it has both Betty and Red Throne in it but those aside it had a bunch of good stuff.
>>82148926
Trust me if you actually bother to draw a bunch you will see results some day.
>>82149277
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ufz75UvHs
This also helps, instead of drawing a bunch of different things, draw a bunch of the same thing with minor modifications. It's long though so bear with it.
>>82149156
They honestly only had a handful of bad apples.
People just like to blow things out of proportion.
This coming from a guy who literally binge-watched the entire series up until now a little while ago.
>>82149353
Yea so you don't have room to talk, you weren't there for the build up and wait for no pay off or surprise suprise, suffering!
I fucking hate when people come here or in other threads saying "i just binged the whole show so you KNOW I am right!"
Lots of PB requests tonight!
>>82147302
>>82147783
Here we go!
>>82147929
I've actually been considering streaming and maybe doing critiques on them, though it would be a while if it ever happened!
>>82148118
Keep at it dude! I'm balls at animating, but I'm trying.
>>82148279
>>82148949
<3
>>82149343
>"Analytical people tend to think too much"
>tfw that's literally my exact problem
Thanks for sharing famu
>>82144580
>insulting based madridista
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>82144553
I love you man, I don't even know how you do it
>>82149561
The build up / hype is part of the fan experience. If it is detrimental to the experience then that's the fan's experience's fault. In judging a season / part of a season only the actual episodes matter.
>>82149596
the ass was phat
Requesting crossdressing Finn, maybe he can be a magical girl to end his suffering or something.
>>82149561
Hype is a double edged sword.
I'm not going to criticize your feelings because I understand where they're coming from.
However I'm just saying that those seasons had a good amount of decent episodes.
That's only examining the episodes on their own though, and nothing else.
Oh man I accidentally spoiled the episode to soupery.
I should feel bad but I'm just laffin over here.
>>82149059
you can dream about anything
including any of those girls, regardless of whether he was ever properly 'with' them, yeah
>>82149609
Good to know that my link was helpful to at least one person.
>>82149277
it's safe to say nobody has drawn as much as i have. my improvement has been very slow. it's just all about how you function
>>82149596
>Lots of PB requests tonight!Yea I know, but I prefer her over Marcy any dayYou should do some art some day with minor characters or ones that don't get much screen time, like Finn's mom, Betty as another anon mentioned, or Flame Princess
>>82149778
great now my favorite place will shut down
http://www.wickedgoodsoup.com/
>>82149596
Any chance you could do Penny from Thief City, like maybe her and Memow hanging out and shittalking Finn and Jake.
>>82149726
I should be upset but my dick stops me from being so
>Only woman who were attracted to Finn was a fucking Bee that turned into a robot, a Worm from a fucking Japanese Acid trip and a sentient piece of hollowed out wooden log have ever had any attraction to him, one was only because he had a flower sticking out of his hand and the other one was just because he could play the flute
Finn will always be alone.
>>82150035
>just because he could play the flute
I don't know about this, it seemed to me that HW recognized and appreciated Finn's adventure-driven nature and was into that. She just shot him down because the emotional barriers she'd put up were too much a part of her sense of self to let go.
>>82150035
>just because he could play the flute
She saw him naked, too. She was in it for the hair.
>>82149778
Who?
>>82149975
>3hrs away
ah well, I was looking forward to trying out a new soup place
>>82150359
a neat artist, she's very talented for her ageshe makes me jealous as fuck
>>82150359
AT fanartist that I follow
>>82149979
i remember when penny was the designated tomboy hotness when there werent that many girls in AT yet
>>82150520
>tomboy
Where'd that come from?
>>82149979
Is there really no art of them?
They'd basically be the anti Finn and Jake.
>>82150550
uhh she's brown, barefoot, dirty, and a total badass. she feigns being an innocent little girl, but then makes comments about 'since i was a kid' as if that was long ago. anyone that good with a dagger is a tomboy
>>82150412
Link?
>>82150035
>just because he could play the flute
I thought it was because she stumbled upon his naked boy bod, and the flute was an analogy for his dong.
>>82150661
>a total badass
girl get off of 4chan
>>82150661
The small size and general dirtyness made me think more of a street urchin than a tomboy, with tomboy I'd have looked out for more mechanical shit and hanging out with dudes.
>>82150697
just search soupery tumblr
I'd link you but I'm on my phone and it's a hassle
>>82150619
there's this!why the fuck did i title things this way, made it so hard to find them later
