We should be allowed to have this discussion. on /co/. it's comic book related.
Why are many characters being gender swapped or race swapped (if they were white?) This is happening in DC too to a lesser degree.
and if you're not white, are you happy about it? if not what's the point?
This thread won't last long.
>>81998550
Can't they make new superheroes. It isn't hard to think up a new power set, background and others. Then just introduce them in an existing comic, let them buildup as a character. If the audience hates them then trash them or have the character devolp to fix that flaw. Then you have your new minority hero who also didn't just steal their name from a successful white male. Repeat in a few comics and you have your 'needed' diversity,
>>81998734
>Can't they make new superheroes.
No one buys those, you have to co-opt someone else's brand to get attention.
>>81998772
Start it off as an antagonist in a very popular comic.
>>81998576
I wonder if it is going to last long enough for me to take out my watch
>>81998550
answer to your question: The entertainment industry is heavily left leaning (mostly because they don´t let anybody that isn´t a hardcore lefty joint the industry)
and since the democratic party that is all about gender politics (feminism / black lives matter, gay lobby, trans lobby etc...) comic book writes now try to push that kind of propaganda in their works
it´s said that political parties go through the most change after a mayor election lose.
so if you don´t like modern day comics you should vote republican. only that way democrats might change their agenda and only then comic book writes might fill their works with a different message
>>81998867
>Republicans win
>comics have Fourth Reich purging comics of colored characters
>>81998550
What does spider woman have to do with this? X-23 Is better than that bub faggot
>>81998772
Invincible sold well didn't it?
Admit ir they are just lazy to come up with an interesting non derivative story with interesting and new characters.
>>81998899
more like
>comics become less "PC" again
if a certain message fails you try another one.
not really that hard to understand
>if you are white are you happy about it
not as if white people don't have like hundreds of other heroes
also Peter Parker still exists, Spider-Woman didn't get swapped to anything, and Steve is Captain America again
>>81998931
>he says SLUT is better than manlet snikt bub
>>81998550
I don't really care and I think people looking like you are pathetic.
>>81998550
Going Down the line
>Capt
He got old so someone had to do it and for some reason its not Bucky Cap
> Wolverine
He died so his clone/daughter is doing it since his son is dead
>Miles
Parker is still around but Miles stayed so we have two
>Spiderwoman
Same person
>Thor
Its temporary,she is still dying
>Xmen
I dont read that so who knows
>>81998933
It doesn't break any rules.
Also you just said you reported the thread which is... Ya know what I hope this is bait, the smile makes me almost certain.
>>81998937
That's a Kirkman-brand comic.
>>81998960
>>81998899
>implying they don't just double down and make a Trump Stand-in
>>81998772
I do and they are great sometimes
>>81998867
so is it like an ideological form of nepotism and nobody non-far left is hired to work on the comics?
but then the question is, what does changing every white character into a non-white character have to do with being a liberal (they are linked but why)
>>81998963
>if you are white
Learn how to read, then check the OP again before you get sad about white heroes being the majority in a nation that is still mostly white (specially when you consider latinos are often times white)
>>81999033
>sad
I was just stating a fact, do whites no longer have the majority of heroes in either Marvel or DC?
I bet you won't even answer that
>>81998550
>>81998867
One of the things that bothers me the most about this diversity craze is how superficial it is. A good chunk of these characters are still from America or some other Western country.
I would like to see some team that is diverse but draws from the many different cultures of Europe set in a fictional, fantasy land based off the Old World.. Anglo-Saxons, Celts, Slavs, Southern Europeans, and whatever else you can draw from Europe's history and cultural fabric.
>>81999072
that's even more retarded, at least an American organization is getting represented by Americans
>>81999062
They certainly do. What are you trying to point out?
>but
Look, people cried about that whole racist oscars thing. Guess what, things were proportional to the population to begin with, so people complaining about more "representation" actually just wanted a positive form of discrimination. Positive racism is still racism.
So the whole point is, at which point does it stop being representation and become just shoveling characters to pretend you have diversity when in reality you are skewing demographics?
t. Non white non american
>>81999013
Me too, but I think the editors don't have confidence that people would be interested in new characters with new names.
>>81999023
Most conservatives aren't interested in working in comics. Marvel does have Nathan Edmonson, though he's boring.
>>81998550
Weren't the X-Men and their struggle originally supposed to be an allusion to the gay rights struggle? If so that one doesn't seem egregious.
>>81999062
changing the discussion towards % of heroes that are white is dishonest. I brought up characters being arbitrarily race and gender swapped.
No one ever said "there are too few white characters". you made that up
>>81998550
>and if you're not white, are you happy about it? if not what's the point?
well I kinda am?
idk i feel somewhat conflicted on this. while I can cleary see how forced it all is i do actually enjoy seeing black main characters
or male black partners (captain marvel wonder woman batgirl)
I just wish it wasn't so blanted about it.
and even though i shouldn't /co/ have made me feel like this is worse then it actually is because we see hate on this probably everyday.
>>81998867
Why would it be reported though? Isnt it related to /co and whatever problems we may have with the comics industry?
The comic industry is trying to pander to people who probably won't buy comics. The industry is dying with movies now becoming the new popular medium. They will literally do anything to boost sales.
I see /co/ saying they like this kind of garbage and i wonder if the people who spend all their time on this board are just pretending to enjoy the shit being shoved in their faces, clinging to the hope that one day their favorite characters will be treated right again.
Move on and find something else to enjoy, OP. The feminists and sjw's have despoiled the comic book hero.
>>81999155
The X-Men are an allusion to anyone who feels like an outsider because of their differences.
>>81999101
Then have one New World character who represents America who leads the team.
>>81998550
>if you're not white, are you happy about it?
No I'm not. Because Marvel's agenda is clear and lazy. I don't care that the characters I like are white males. Leave them alone. Make new characters with their own names and identities.
>>81999150
I never got any conservative leaning from his writing. Except for maybe Punisher killing a bunch of low level Mexican drug dealers.
>>81998960
Most of what counts as PC gone mad can be chalked up to just not being a prick, and most of the complaints come from people who "just want to be able to call a faggot a faggot god damn it" and don't like being told that perhaps that's a bit insensitve
Yeah freedom of speech and all that, fantastic. But that means others have the right to their freedom of speech in criticising you.
If you're going to call someone something offensive, don't then be surprised when they do get offended and don't take kindly to it. If you called some random person in the street a cunt, you wouldn't then be surprised that they became unhappy that you did so.
As it is, I find that people who scoff at those who get offended by things often get pretty fucking offended if you start talking shit about the military or what have you.
>>81999193
>The industry is dying with movies now becoming the new popular medium.
The industry has had non-stop growth from 2011 up until the downturn of winter 2015, in part because the MCU finally got people interested in buying comics after a decade of superhero movies.
>>81999122
>>81999062
Oh and have a suggestion:
Like another guy said, why so many americans?
Want more black or asian characters? How about making super teams or superheroes based in Africa or Asia?
>>81999023
>all the popular characters are all white and male
>liberals are all about "diversity" because it is a excuse to give special treatment to none white males (as seen in female and none white quotas) which is a easy way to get the black and female vote
>comic book writes just simply follow sued
>they are pandering to people who won't buy comics
then it won't be pandering for long? I don't get why you guys are even worried then
Guaranteed 500 replies.
>>81999122
Think he's saying that it as long as there is a long list of white superheroes to pick out, what does it matter if a few of them get a woman/minority wearing the outfit (usually for a relatively short time before the original guy comes back).
And wasn't the oscars thing about how say black actors can only get a shot at the oscars if they are in yet another movie about blacks enduring under nasty old whitey? I don't even remember
>>81998550
And the one sorta new character they create is yellow fever fuck fantasy. Who the hell names an Asian woman Silk?
>>81998550
Don't like it? Don't read it, get the fuck out of my board and return to your genderwars in twitter/tumblr/pol/reddit shithole.
>>81998550
all the white male versions are still around, except logan who has been replaced by old man logan, who is also a white male. and both captain america and thor have gotten their powers back.
read the fucking comics
>>81999237
Part of it is that the target audience wants a more easy to relate to characters an so making them [insert minority category here]-American is an easy way to deliver these easier to relate to characters for the minority target audience.
As a person who grew up Muslim and just started reading the Kamala Khan series I can understand why but ultimately it can come off as very cheap, like you're picking at the low hanging fruit.
I wonder if a possible way to tap into that target audience might be to do the opposite; make a while male character who feels out of place in a foreign society like some white boy growing up in Saudi Arabia because his dad works for ARAMCO. It would probably be harder to write though.
>>81999300
Nah, they were complaining blacks didn't get represented in the oscars. They also complained about how the oscars are systemically racist and are trying to let a brutha down.
When proven the proportions were right it switched to blacks have few opportunities in Hollywood.
This chat belongs on /tv/ though, or /pol/, not /co/.
>>81999319
her name's cindy
>>81999237
Because DC and Marvel are American companies that primarily employ Americans writers who write for an American audience. And when catering to minorities, they are catering to minority Americans..
This doesn't even get into the fact even if they were slightly interested, most of them won't know shit about African or Asian countries and will probably end up with something offensive.
>>81999172
To add on this i don't really think any comics I read lately have been bad because of diversity. The comic I have read that is bad is because of the writing was bad or the art was horrible.
and while I say I enjoy the diversity change I can still not think of any comic in my favorite list that have a POC lead. At least not now.
I think it's stupid. They made reed richards, and black cat black in spider-gwen. I mean, yeah. If a book is targeted to tumblr is that one, but still.
>>81999370
Well I dunno lad. The thing is proportionally these are still a very small fraction of the market. So they don't need to be 50% of everything, a couple as it would be fine.
Maybe a few actually foreign heroes too. But the thing is most writers can't write different cultures or non us/euro places right.
Not like most people would notice
>>81999333
>read the fucking comics
Why? Comics sure as hell don't want me to read them...
>>81999390
And she has to be Peter's fucktoy because pheromones or some shit.
>>81999370
> make a white male character who feels out of place in a foreign society
That's pretty much Iron Fist, isn't it?
I notice that no white female characters got swapped out with ethnic counterparts.
>>81999150
it´s not like they aren´t interested its that they are being denied a chance at a carrier simply for having none left leaning political opinions. a conservative once interviewed several hollywood top managers undercover and got them admitting on tape that they do everything in their power to prevent conservatives from getting a high positions simply for being right leaning.
this video talks about just that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3izPap5ER8
I doubt that the left leaning comic book industry acts differently.
liberals usually use the same tactic of denying the opposition to voice their opinion to get power.
>>81999370
There's iron fist but people claim thats appropriating asian culture. So youll run into something similar with that idea.
>>81999333
where's nick fury?
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>81999484
And conservatives wouldn't if the shoe was on the other foot?
Comics have always being progressive, remember the x-men.
Is just now we can see the bad side of progressive ideologies that we crtitize this kind of stuff before the media only showed the good side of the progressives in america
>>81999413
or no one will buy it no matter how good it is
batwing wasn't popular until he became a american.
dc is making a asian superman though that will be interesting to see.
>>81999431
Well to be fair, it's an alt-universe, and a that hightop fade is adorable.
Well this thread will probably turn to shit, but alright I'll play along. I'm white and I don't mind seeing non-white characters in comics. I find it interesting to read about people that are different from me, be it a different gender/race/nationality/sexuality/what have you.
I don't like the fact that most of the time these characters are very poorly written. See Jane Thor for example, I don't mind that she's a woman (legacy characters have been a thing for a really fucking long time), I have a problem with the absolutely shit writing and characterization she gets. Ms. Marvel however is well written and she's not solely defined by being a woman/brown/muslim character. Iceman being gay was absolutely awfully handled, but then you have Midnighter which is one of my favorite current ongoings and great when it comes to showing a gay superhero. What I'm trying to say is, writing diverse characters in comics is not the problem, it's the writing that's the problem 99% of the time. A lot of creators are talentless hacks who can't write for shit.
>>81999431
you kinda justified it yourself.
Honestly if an original mexican/black or women character doesn't work then it just proves that comics are a white people thing or the other committees actually don't care enough to buy into a comic and therefore we should stop pandering to this huge left swing everyone is meant to be riding on atm.
It's not racist if most of the readership is white and we like to identify with our own charterers we've known for decades, it's called a market demography
>>81999501
As absent from comics as he has been for the past 30 years, which you'd know if you'd read comics.
>>81999545
New Super-Man looks like a fun book
>>81999482
Ms Marvel
>>81999413
They sell comics outside the US.
Research exists.
And finally, even if you go that route there is no need to over represent unless it's an elseworld/what if or if you are representing a specific subcontext (e.g. if you make a comic set in Chicago it'll have a different population than say Anchorage)
>>81999598
Idk. i feel there is more people like >>81999570
then you think. the non white people that have read comics for years did it while the characters where white, I'm thinking the same is happening here.
>>81999609
Are you hyped for Kenan & Kal?
>>81999598
>I can only identify with characters that look like me but people that don't look like me that can only identify with characters that look like them are just shit out of luck
>>81999598
Comics want growth though. Not to constantly rely on their unchanging original audience. And the only way to grow is to get more people reading. Which leads to the constant attempts to get minorities on board.
Just kicking back with the old white audience leads to stagnation and eventually, deterioration
>>81998550
I'm confused
Why are Spider-Woman and the X-Men covers up there?
Or for that matter, Miles, who isn't a race swap, he's a new character sharing the name
And honestly, I haven't encountered many serious cap fans who object to Sam having the mantle. He's been a cap supporting cast member forever. What's the point of a sidekick if they can't step in when the time comes?
As for DC,
Most Flash fans don't give a fuck about Wally being black, they give a fuck that Wally isn't Wally at all- he's got fuck-all in common with the old character. The black thing is annoying because if DC undoes it, it will get them fucking roasted to shit on social and trade media.
Tl/dr who fucking cares, not like there's a big shortage of white dudes. Sorry if your favorite got replaced, but favorites get replaced all the fucking time, even by white people.
>>81999673
They better make a Good Burger comic. It'll be all that.
>>81999482
and raven in teen titans earth one.
>>81998550
Its to make quotas and pander. Honsetly I wouldn't care if we actually had good writers. I was reading the All-New All-Diffrent X-Men when Claremont took over, and despite most the cast being made to have more diversity (international, intersexual, interracial, something for everyone) the characters race/home country is only one part of their personality, where nowadays if Thor is a woman? You better believe the whole rin will be about her being a woman. Cap is Black now? Make sure to have him comment on all those poor dindus. Storm on the otherhand feels like an actual person in Claremont's stories. Shes got a real nice personality, and very little of it has to with her being black. Same with Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee, and Wolverine. All of their homelands are apparent, but they could of written the character first, then the country of origin, and I wouldn't be surprised. I would say I always enjoyed when Marvel just made new "diverse" characters (X-Men, Runaways, Young Avengers) rather then just switched them out (New Thor, New Cap, New Hulk), and I would say the amount of switching today is ridiculous and the reason for doing so is very transluscent, but what bothers me the most is how the stories are suffering for the sake of this pandering. I'd have no problem with a gay or black CHARACTER written into a nice story, but most writers in marvel write them as GAY or BLACK characters with the story buit around them.
>>81998933
Thanks m8
>>81999650
Don't they just export translated versions of their American comics? Don't think the big 2 have international branches with creative power.
Research means nothing if they aren't interested in it.
>>81999319
>implying Marvel isn't big into Yellow Fever
Are you shitting me? Look at Psylocke, look at Hazmat, Sister Grimm, Jubilee. The list goes on and on. They've been doing this for years and now all of a sudden, it's a bad thing?
Let's be frank, Asian chicks are nothing more than cum dumpsters because they're exotic for whites.
>>81999805
Kill me Pete.
>>81999609
An Asian Superman is retarded as fuck. Superman is supposed to be a paragon of strength and virtue. Somebody that we're supposed to look up to. Not a faggy manlet from chinkland.
>>81999810
They'd get more cash investing in the foreign markets.
Is white men really the majority of comic book buyers?
especially now when more diversity have been added for the past 5 years or so.
Capeshit is for every one.
In Marvel in particular every character is supposed to be an everyman with certain values that every one is supposed to identify with. Race and perception of heritage is and has always been a part of that bag, and introducing new colored characters has always been something Marvel is cognizant of since the 60s.
>>81999854
/pol/
>>81999689
Why the fuck can't non-whites just accept white comic book characters? The whole world likes and wants to emulate the West. Hollywood is big all over the world.
>>81999980
>Why the fuck can't sjws just accept white comic book characters?
>>81999971
I'm stating the truth. I don't mind Asian heroes like Amadeus Cho or Ryan Choi, but an Asian Superman is flat-out stupid.
No kid in the US would look up to Superman if he looked like Jackie Chan or Jet Li. Too alien for anyone to relate to.
>>81999821
That's what I'm saying. The first relatively new character they create and they go back to the yellow fever trope. So much for Marvel's progressive push.
>>82000012
This especially
SJWs do nothing but bitch and moan yet contribute nothing positive. You want more minorities in comics or women in video games? Buy the comics and games that do. Put up or shut up. Business is all about money in the end yet these commie fuckwits have no clue how markets work.
>>81999927
Comics are mostly a middle class thing.
Majority of the US is still white.
Half the population is male.
Social outcasts and STEMlords are an important fanbase demographic, women tend to be a smaller part of that demographic.
I'd say so?
Specially when a lot of dudes are okay with buying say, Jane Thor comics.
I know I did.
>New Wolverine: good
>New Spiderman: only decent thing Bendis has written in a while
>Falcap: aside from liberal politics of Spencer it's decent
>Black Panther: decent
>Midnighter: awesome
>Gotham Academy: awesome
>New Hulk: pretty good
>Silk: pretty good
>New Superwoman: has a very good writer
>New Superman: has a very good writer
I feel like half of the faggots that post in these threads aren't actually the ones that read comics. Yes they're trying hard to go for that diversity dollar but most of the stories have been well written. Which you non comic reading cocksucker wouldn't know about. Now please fuck off back to /pol/ and /tv/.
>>82000018
This one is set in China though. I'm more interested in the world building in this book.
>>82000022
Marvel was hardly ever progressive. They lived off of the All-New All-Different X-men line-up when the book restarted. Having a leading black female like Storm gave them cred at that time, but otherwise, they don't know how to depict a minority for shit.
And Asians are easy targets. They don't complain and if they do, nobody takes them seriously. So who cares?
>>81999207
>Most of what counts as PC gone mad can be chalked up to just not being a prick
>Most
No, that's wrong.
What you described is PC. Don't call gay people faggots, women should have the same pay, all black people aren't criminals: these things are PC. When it comes to things like
>bobby is gay now, if you dislike it you're a homophobe
>thor is now a woman, we won't explain what happened to male thor, and all of thor's villains are now misogynists for some reason, if you don't like it you may hate women
>wally west is now half black just because, if you don't like it you're racist
then you have PC gone mad. For me it's not even the fact that these choices have been made, it's the fact that the knee-jerk reaction to criticism is "Well maybe if you weren't X-ist, it wouldn't be such a big problem" which makes even less sense when talking about /co/-related stuff because the stereotype of "comic book nerds" has always been an over-focus on continuity an minutiae.
>>81999980
Because no matter how relatable a character is, they would be several times more relatable if they looked like the reader. And that difference can be the difference of a person buying a comic or not.
Why don't more whites accept non-white comic book characters? Because even if they don't hate minorities, they'd rather be reading about a white character overall.
>>81998550
Happy for greater diversity. Not so happy seeing characters I like sidelined.
>>82000038
I see more people bitching about SJWs bitching than I see actuall SJWs bitching. I don't search that shit out though.
>>81999980
they kinda did.
>>82000075
>implying Commie Chinks can have a superhero
Oh fuck this noise. They're just trying to suck up to the PRC for markets. Those authoritarian assholes have no concept of justice or altruism.
>>82000102
Or maybe because Femthor needs to be used as a feminist pamphlet, among other things.
>>81998550
>and if you're not white, are you happy about it? if not what's the point?
I honestly don't care about the majority, the one things that piss me off is Bendis trying to make Miles the legacy for two Peters (and shitting on Peter in the process) and, to a lesser degree, Aaron still not saying why Thor became unworthy.
>>82000102
>they would be several times more relatable if they looked like the reader
OK, I'm black and I find this shit stupid. I'm sure that you can find a bunch of black people who think otherwise, but it's my opinion that if you find a character completely unrelatable because of the color of their skin, then the problem is with YOU, not the character. It would be a different conversation if people felt like the situations characters were in were only relatable for white people, but the characters themselves? Fuck that.
>>82000132
I wasn't even aware that SJWs were a thing until recently on /co/ and /tv/. I'm liberal myself but even I think SJWs are toxic as fuck.
>>81999949
Ya, but now they build the story around the race, gender, etc. of the character. We have whole runs where the tag line is basically "all the characters are women". Back in the 60s70s80s at least we got good stories. Now its just copypasta from tumblr. If we ever get past this the 2010s will just be that "weird era of Marvel were all the superheroes were obsessed with race, and villains characterization were thrown out the window so they could be strawmaned as staunch conservatives" we have a few gems, but those are the ones that barely, if not at all l, touch on race e.g. Superior Foes, Punisher, Moon Knight. Would you really say that the new Thor, new Defenders, or new Squirrel Girl were good comics? That the diversity in those comics actually negate the terrible writing?
>>82000158
Speaking of this, I know a fuckton of black kids from HS and college that were weaboos. Blacks don't seem to mind reading Jap fiction.
>>81999484
The CEO of Marvel Entertainment donated a million to Trump's charity.
>>82000018
well it's not really for kids to enjoy. At least not what i think. I think this is for people in comics that want to read another version of superman.
it's like complaining that no American kid can look up to superman red son.
>594 replies and 361 images omitted. Click here to view.
I don't get the insecurity. Like 20 outta 100 is the numbers. And we've had the heroes for years new blood is interesting.
>>82000227
Red Son Superman was for readers that were in their teens at least. It was a more mature story than typical Superman books and it was a stand-alone Elseworld graphic novel.
>well it's not really for kids to enjoy
You've hit it on the nail. US cape comics are largely consumed by 20somethings and up. The last time I went to my LCS, I saw maybe 1 kid out 50+ adult readers.
>>82000264
I don't give a fuck if cape comics want to introduce minorities so long as it's not ham-fisted like what Marvel's been doing or race-swapping established characters who were white into being black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.
Jaime Reyes is the perfect example of doing a non-white superhero and making him marketable to the masses. It helps that he's a legacy hero.
It really shouldnt matter why
As long as they tell a good story.
Falcon taking over as cap makes resonable sense because sam and steve are long time pals/partners
Luara is similar in that she has her father/clone relationship with logan
Miles, while i dont know his character presently, was a total forced thing for controversy/readership. As is female thor.
What connection do they have to the originals? And does it make sense for them to take over?
>>82000264
>new blood is interesting
It is. I just wish they had the balls to make new characters instead of anchoring them to legacy characters. Why can't Amadeous Cho have his own ongoing?
>>82000158
It doesn't matter who the problem rests with. The person probably doesn't even know its a problem and may never know with no one to confront them. The point is they aren't buying the book because they'd rather be reading a book about someone who looks like them.
>>82000264
No. Good writing is interesting. Letting a bunch of moviegoers who just now want to get into comics demand change, and for Marvel to sacrifice substance to pander to that fanbase is not interesting.
>>82000360
It bothers the fuck out of me that black Fury was introduced into 616.
>>82000188
A bunch of blacks liking Jap shit doesn't mean blacks as a whole give a shit about. We take special focus on that because they stick out more amongst the more normie blacks.
>>82000409
Guess Marvel fans should boycott the comics and movies since the CEO is a filthy Republicunt
>>82000345
It does matter. If the problem isn't with the character but that's where we're putting our focus, then we are ignoring a much larger problem. That's where we need to put our focus.
And you could probably say that Marvel's only job is to do what sells comics, but none of the dumb shit in
>>82000083
is leading to more comics sold, just accolades from social media fucks who don't even read comics.
>>82000374
Exactly. I like both, but getting rid of classic Fury, just so the moviegoers can be appeased is utter shit.
>>82000343
Cause the industry is fucked and new characters don't sell
>>82000167
Confirmation bias, those books are bad because their creative team is bad. Diversity does nothing to its quality positively or negatively outside of marketability. Stop pretending to be retarded to prove a point.
Ultimates is one of the most diverse books in the market right now and it's arguably the best book Marvel is putting out.
>>82000188
We're used to not being catered too, that's the thing. Watching Lord of the Rings is no different to us than watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. White people are just now starting to adjust to what we've been doing for decades and they're whining about it only adds fuel to the fire.
I never really bite on these threads, but here we go.
Let's think about comics as a whole. Once immensely popular, slowly shoved into decline by the emergence of video games and television. Kids stop buying comics, but the kids who grew up reading them continued to do so. Which is fine, but without new blood, the demographic slowly shrinks and the establishment caters to them more to try and hold on.
Then the 90s happened. Succesful Batman movies and, more importantly, succesful Batman cartoons and X-Men cartoons drags new kids in. Myself included. The companies see dollar signs, and try to give the kids what they think the kids want. In the 90s, that was EXTREME. You saw how that worked out.
Now we have a new slate of movies bringing in new blood, much of it a bit older this time. 20s and 30s. There's also social media, which creates a different kind of fan network. This is a new demographic, and the companies once again see a chance to shore up a dwindling market. They're making comics for them, which isn't inherently bad. Cape comics have needed to switch things up for a while, and Image is riding high on being the guys that do everything that's NOT a cape comic. Even Marvel and DC are putting out non-cape books, books like Prez and Weirdworld. This is a good thing.
The problem? If you're the guys they've been making comics for for the last four or five decades, then you stuck around because they were giving you what you wanted. And now you're not the only demographic in play. Some people take to that just fine. A few don't.
Also, it's absurd to complain about legacy characters. It's been a thing forever.
And you didn't read all that.
>>82000158
>if you find a character completely unrelatable because of the color of their skin
i'm pretty sure no one here said that
and if that's the case that's stupid as fuck but I do agree that if the character in the story is a well writen black dude i would maybe even have a better time relating to a character
I see it as a a privileged not a necessity
>>82000462
I really wonder what will happen to cape comics by mid-century? Will it eventually implode and people start shifting to indie comics?
>>82000360
Yeah such movie guys like Bendis, Lemire, Spencer, Waid, Ewing. Just walked over from Disney studios to get jobs
>>82000514
Implosions and rebirth. Also just as IP farms
Rachel Summers.jpeg
>>82000545
Not entirely true.
I am an atheist and I've gone to christian events and dinners.
Aren't there enough minorities in comics in proportion to their actual demographics? Blacks are 13%, Asians are 5%, LGBT are 4%.
>>82000513
>i'm pretty sure no one here said that
They're saying that more diverse people don't read comics because there aren't enough diverse heroes and I'm saying that that's fucking wrong.
>>82000455
Except you can't focus on them. They aren't the loud and proud social media fucks. They are the quiet and reserved normies who are only being talked about right now because they may or may not buy a book. Silent majority of minorities. Unless you want us to just hang around comic book stores and confront every black person who buys a comic with a black character, there's not much you can do.
And someone metioned in this thread that the industry might actually be going through some growth right now. Though that might just be from the movies.
>>81999725
Glad this bitch never took off. I hope Duke's death is just as swift.
>>82000620
I highly doubt minority comic fans are gonna abandon cape books just because they don't have their own respective self-inserts.
It's the same shit with retards bitching about how "white" fantasy in the Western world is. No shit Sherlock, you right about stuff that's familiar to you and what the main demographics of your audience will be comfortable with. Hence, it's largely Western European culture.
>>82000508
To add: this was the end of an era. We've had Gold and Silver, Bronze and Extreme. I guarantee you every single one of those eras had people pissed off that they weren't making comics like they used to. At some point, future Grant Morrison is going to do a pastiche of this era because they're nostalgic for it, and long for a time when the establishment wasn't forcing bioelectric cyborg characters down our throats.
>>82000514
Comics will be mostly dead by mid century. Cape comics will be all digital and the ration of movie/television tie-ins to normal comics will be flipped. The quality of comics will rise under the reduced pressure though. Print will be dominated by indie comics, which will start to see the same fatigue as cape comics are right now.
>>82000327
naa. I really don't think so.
miles was after one of the best endings of a comic book character and his motivations was probably the strongest i seen in a comic book in a long time.
i'm more irritated that all that is lost in the new universe they are in.
>>81999193
>The feminists and sjw's have despoiled the comic book hero.
You faggots are hilarious.
>>82000102
>Why don't more whites accept non-white comic book characters?
Because we were comic writers and artist first. Because we were here first. We bought comics first.
>>82000648
I think you may be misunderstanding me. I don't really care if more minorities read comics- more people yes, and if those people are minorities, fine, but I don't specifically care about minorities. I'm just saying that if you wish to have minorities read comics, as Marvel clearly does, the solution isn't to alienate your current readership by making decisions that don't address a real problem or have proven effects.
And I don't have data, but I'd bet my life that any readership bump is due to the billion+ dollar movies that keep coming out.
>>82000327
I disagree with Miles. Ultimate Peter had a good ending, and I always thought that Miles taking up the mask followed the spirit of what the Ultimate universe was supposed to be: something different.
>>82000839
But do we really know if the readership is being alienated that badly? People bitching about it on 4chan and Twitter has the same clout as SJWs bitching about shit on Tumblr and Twitter.
>>82001179
I should have put "risk" alienating instead of just alienating, but yeah, you have a point. Though I would argue that past experience tells us that changing things about characters and putting new people in costumes is not something that core comics fanbases are fond of unless executed well, and the recent changes have not been well-executed.
>>81999854
Bruce Lee.
Also, Kenan Kong? All I can think of is a giant ape in a burger-flipper outfit.
>>82001270
No one is fond of anything that isn't executed well, genius.
Anyone that only reads a comic because it has a brown or gay character in it probably isn't a fan of comics. Just like anyone that doesn't read a comic because it has a brown or gay character in it isn't really a fan of comics.
The sad fact of the matter is both groups of retards cancel each other out.
>>82001796
>No one is fond of anything that isn't executed well, genius.
There's a very real difference between "this is a shitty superman story" rage and "not muh Superman" rage.
>>82001796
almost all execution of a poc or a gay character lately have been great to ok.
only bad one I can think of is iceman,
it made me hate jeane gray so much
>>82001852
The only difference is that one allows you to polish off a soapbox.
>>82002031
The difference is that people actually drop books for one, but will weather a bad story. Come on now, this isn't hard.
>>81998550
>and if you're not white, are you happy about it?
Nope, I don't find any of the non-white characters the least bit interesting, not sure why.
>>82000018
>Jackie-Chan-superman in a chair-factory not looking for any trouble while fighting Doomsday!
I would buy that in a heart beat!
>>82000792
Because you were allowed to first.
>>82000513
>i'm pretty sure no one here said that
This guy did
>>82000018
I like how Miles was annoyed by being called "black spider-man"
he should be just spider-man or maybe "young spider-man", it's retarded to judge characters just for the color of their skin
wolverine's dead and laura is a good replacement (even though I'd like to see daken show up too)
jane won't be thor forever, she's either going to die of cancer bc she keeps resetting her therapy or she's going to have to stay thor all the timeand then she'll have to give up being thor and die anyway
falcon makes sense because he's been cap's sidekick for years
it's interesting to see hulk as a fun muscle character and not as a loner who's too afraid to break something
bobby being gay was kinda forced desu
Kamala is an example for a good new character, yeah she's taking carol's name but she moved on from ms to cap anyway
ffs carol took mar-vell's name and it's all good
it's about how you handle the character and also don't forgetmost of these are publicity stunts and won't stick anyway
baka senpai desu
>>81998550
Marvel has always been counter culture and swapped out characters. This is nothing and just free press for them. Meanwhile DC is slowly back pedaling on the new 52 to make up for sales
>>82000732
Yeah agreed. All New All Different Marvel ruined Miles Morales.
>>81999370
Pretty much Iron Fist. He grew up in an Asian-type environment since he was nine, before doing back to NYC. He doesn't fit it anyway.
>>81998837
People will call it racist if you put minorities in villain roles.
>>81999490
That's bullshit, you can't "appropriate" your own culture. Beside, he was the minority in that situation anyway.
>>82004567
*anywhere
>>82004408
I don't enjoy the newest run of spider-man
Laura is cool as fuck, i just want the writing to get better
Jane is so shit. Some pages are good as of late but literally pages, not issues.
Falcon is cool but the writing isn't the best
Bobby was really fucking forced.
Kamala is really good. She is most of /CO/'s waifu. She is the most successful.
Only ones I appreciate is Ultimate Miles Morales over 616, Kamala and Laura. The rest of this ANAD comics are pretty meh. I read them on /co/ but i can't really support nothing but kamala.
I, for one, welcome the fact that Wolverine took a vacation from being in pretty much every single fucking Marvel book.
>>82004408
>ffs carol took mar-vell's name and it's all good
Carol took Mar-Vell's name and has been horrible shit. Only with the latest book she's becoming a character again.
>>82000470
And people arent complaining about Ultimates. People are complaining about Thor, Cap, etc. The focus on diversity is what is making those titles bad, not the actual diversity. Making the story, the character, the whole fucking comic about shitty progressive hot topics is what fans are upset about. If someone wrote something as good as God of Thunder, but just replaced Thor with She-Thor, I probabbly would of still loved the comic, but the whole premise of her character is feminism which distracts from the fact that she is a superhero.
>>82000533
Not writers themselves, new fans that demand that they write in their shitty self-inserts isntead of focusing on the ctual story. Wasn't it Bendis who recently took a jab about how libs only care that Miles is BLACK spider-man and not jus Spider-Man?
Most people don't care about diversity, they care that their superhero comics all become about affirmative action and liberal propaganda than just having a comic about superheroes. No one has shit fits about Jon Stewart, James Rhodes, or even Bill Foster for being black legacy characters, but only because besides their goofy 70s jive talk, the whole story doesn't become about the Black Panthers and Reparations. When you have comic book characters outright saying shit about "mansplaining" and "hands up dont shoot" then you have to expect animosity towards the decision to change the character. I rarely see people talk shit about the new Ghost Rider, because it isn't the actual diversity that peiple hate, its making comics all about social issues that become more and more ridiculous as time goes on.
>>81998988
It's a troll topic. No one who responds to it is here to talk about comics and cartoons.
>>81998550
It's what they think will sell to college kids. I don't give a shit personally. I barely read big2 books anyway.
>>82005476
>>82000470
The Ultimate universe ended.
>>82000508
>Once immensely popular
Wrong right off the bat. Read a book, nigger.
>>82006110
they mean these guys.
>>82006392
it's a full-on DIVERSITY team, but they are too busy being SUPERHEROES(and fucking with cosmic shot that WILL bite them in the ass later) to waste time with diversity-politics
>>81998899
Are you guys even capable of making an argument beyond "You're a racist" anymore?
>>81998734
It's not about that. It's about thinning the massive herd of white characters.
There are too damn many white characters around that will always take top billing over a new minority character so the numbers need to be thinned out some. The best way to do that is race life an existing one.
>>82006654
>Are you guys even capable of making an argument beyond "It's pandering/forced" anymore?
>>81998550
Something-something-SJWs-marvel hates white men-panders to Tumblr and not me.
Same as Captain America doesn't bother me because it's a legitimate evolution of his character (though not all would agree to this). He was Steve's close friend for years and it doesn't chock me to see him take up the mantle. Granted his execution was shit and the change hapened right around when inversion went down and our intro to him as Cap was as a ragin douche-nozzle. They really haven't taken him away from that since.
Same can be said with X-23. She's literally female Wolverine, and anything that gets her away from Bendis is good in my mind (I'm actually enjoying her new ongoing).
Miles is a bit of an enigma since he's in 616 now and I have no idea to his backstory. Honestly I feel bad for him since writer's have given him one of two voices: bland as hell, or just Peter Parker quips in a different costume.
I never have -and never will- give a shit about Spider-Woman. She only has relevance on /co/ because she's had back to back controversy with that kinda shitty alternate cover that caused some sort of shitstorm (How big I do not know. I haven't seen anyone actually bitch about it, just /co/ bitching about people bitching about it).
Thor is meh. Nothing about the mystery or her character arc really grabbed, but there's been nothing hugely offensive about it, only mediocrity.
And I don't follow X-men comics that aren't solo runs. That part of the universe is an especially fucked up mess of continuity and stories that rely on other parts of the world being non-existant or incompetent to function. Fuck those terrorists.
>>81999023
>so is it like an ideological form of nepotism and nobody non-far left is hired to work on the comics?
Media in general but it's more the reverse. It's not about being hired but it is incredibly easy to be fired for not following along with the West LA hivemind. Famous singers, actors, directors, musicians, team owners are almost immediately drummed out if they do not go along with the Seth McFarlane style "Why can't everyone just be a Hollywood elite prick?" lifestyle in public at all times.
>>82006663
>>81999072
There's DC, JLA is
>Superman-Alien Jew
>Wonder Woman- Greek
>Aquaman-Atlantean
>Green Lantern-anything since anyone can be one
>Flash-Midwestern white guy
>Batman-East coast white guy
>Martian Manhunter-Green Martian
>Hawkgirl-Alien
most are aliens, white guys from the US are a minority.
Then Marvel everyone is a white guy from Manhattan unless it's X-Men.
>>82006741
>Thor is meh. Nothing about the mystery or her character arc really grabbed, but there's been nothing hugely offensive about it, only mediocrity.
Thor is the one I am most genuinely offended by.
Not even because thors a lady in and of itself. But holy hell the recent story with uproar in asgard cos they want democracy (occupy asgard) and their allmother and odin is just adhering to the old ways instead of getting with the times (come on odin. its the current year that it is man). Then thor comes in and beats the shit out of odin. Jason Aaron is trying so fucking hard to prop up how great this new thor is to lend her legitimacy the story is suffering.
>>81998550
Because minorities don't fucking sell. And Marvel and DC know, and they couldn't give two flying fucks about all the gender crazies and minorities, they just want to make noise, sell a little more.
If minorities were such a big market, if they were such an important block of the sells, then supporting an entirely new character who happens to be gay or black or whatever wouldn't be hard, but they know such a character will never make it, so instead they just hijack a well-established, beloved white character and white-guilt weak fools into buying the comic.
It's ridiculous. What is their thought process?
>I've been buying Thor for so long now.. but I'm not really on board with this whole Thor woman thing.. wait, if I stop buying the comic, does... does that mean I'm a ... OH GOD I DON'T WANT TO HATE WOMEN
If there was such a big minority market out there, they wouldn't need to resort to these tactics. It's all just white guilt. They're not getting a penny from me, not for quite a while now.
>>81999023
They still hire Miller.
>>81998550
Self-absorbed narcissists who don't care about anyone who doesn't look exactly like them want everything changed so they can "relate".
>>82007014
I would have said something more like
>Self-absorbed narcissists who want to feel super extra special about themselves today so they find a really "easy" political/sociological fight to win. So they attack a comic company for not being diverse enough until a change is made just for them. Then they can live out their personal power fantasy and assume they are some super special humanitarian that helped other downtrodden voiceless folk at the same time.
>>82006392
wait am i mixing this up with something else?
Ii remember everyone hating on this when it first came out for being pandering to sjw.
>>82007216
Then people actually read it and discovered it was not shit.
>>82005476
>>82006506
People have and do still complain about Ultimates. Confirmation bias, once again. See >>82007216
>>82006875
everyone is still white though.
no one sees wonderwoman as anything but white same with superman.
martian manhunter is somewhat of a exception but he often sees in his alien form.
>>82006899
>Then thor comes in and beats the shit out of odin.
That's as good as giving his blessing to it. That wouldn't have happened if Odin did not will it.
>>81998550
I'm asian.
I absolutely despite it when they replace long running heroes with other ethnicities. I love the characters I love simply because of how much they stand for the hero's name. By simply replacing them with another person to carry the mantle, I feel cheated that they're trying to push diversity that nobody wants instead of trying something new with a new character.
Please don't replace a hero with another character with another gender/skin colour and call it a day, it's terrible. If they make a new hero or have them separate to the original without taking them over, that's fine. Also I hate Marvel a lot more than DC because Marvel's pandering is offensive.
>>82006900
>then supporting an entirely new character who happens to be gay or black or whatever wouldn't be hard, but they know such a character will never make it, so instead they just hijack a well-established, beloved white character and white-guilt weak fools into buying the comic.
I'm sorry mate but the same could be said about white people.
>>81999680
do you expect companies to keep marketing characters that dont sell just so you can identify better with your superheroes? nobody fucking buys static shock or blue marvel so they aren't going to keep paying to produce it when they can make a white superhero comic that people will buy
>>81999598
Not at all anon. The quality of the comic matters as well.
>>81999609
I dont' remember Gene Leung writing anything that wasn't crap, but I'll give him this. He's giving it is all.
>>82007441
>>82007511
Oh good /tv/pol/ is here.
This was actually a surprisingly decent thread before even though it was bait. I'm sure no one's mind got changed about anything but still a good talk.
Have a good afternoon, /co/!
Eat a thousand dicks /pol/esmokers!
>>82007562
you know when a comic dosen't sell alot of factors setts in and not just the main characters race.
there's a reason why static shock tv series got 4 seasons while the comic got canned after 8 issues.
>>81998550
>and if you're not white, are you happy about it?
I'm a minority and I'm pissed.
Leave whiteys alone.
>>81998550
>Steve was never gone and is back in glorious youth
>Logan is not even completely gone and old man Logan kinda had to happen
>Peter is still there, with his own book, there's ten more Spiders of every fucking color, fuck off
>What? Is being preggers progressive now?
>Yeah, yeah. Nobody likes her.
>Who are those fags?
>>81998550
Maybe I'm being to technical with the term race and gender swapped but none of these are race or gender swapped in my opinion they're just MORE legacy characters. That's not Steve and Peter turned black or Logan and Thor turned into a girl. Spider Woman isn't even new, I'm almost positive she's older than I am as in was created before I was born. And in ALL these cases the original character is still around in some form.
If you mean like Jimmy Olsen and Nick Fury on tv and in movies. Then I'd say Jimmy Olsen bothers me and Nick Fury doesn't. Fury doesn't bother because he's based off Ultimate Fury who was based off Sam Jackson so it's kind of perfect. If you want to talk about Nick Furys son in 616 then it reaches annoying level because it's a cheap move to get the movie audience or stir up shit. Jimmy on the other hand Isn't Jimmy in any recognizable way other than he has a watch that can call Superman and he sometimes has a camera. And it seems like one of those things where they realized they had an almost entirely white cast and said FUCK IT we'll make Jimmy black. Other than he is a handsome fellow there is nothing I like about Supergirl Jimmy.
But back to the stuff you posted I think overall comics are in a lump as far as writing quality is concerned and most of these titles suffer because of it. Captain America is pretty good, I want to say that it's possible that I'm letting my disappointment in Miles Ultimate run carry over to and cause my dislike for his current book but I don't think I am it's not that good, and like Ultimate the art is what keeps me as interested as I am. Wolverine is just OK which is crazy because in the past there have been some great X-23 stories and character development that has just been brushed aside for...for what? More clones?
BLAH BLAH BLAH I think I'm rambling, or venting. I don't have a problem with the characters as much as the quality of the books.
>>82007441
>When can we stop pretending black people are special?
Then stop bringing up just black people. Race swaps aren't even exclusively black and it isn't just white people who hate it. If you think the twitter hashtags for ironfist or academy awards was on the priority list for the groups sjws were "representing" then you're wrong
>The last 60 years of American history has revolved around catering to these people.
yes and nothing else in those 60 years of note. Maybe you should take your own advice
>>82007310
see >>82007292
Like for New Avengers, everybody was scared they'd be minorities first.
Then they were superheroes and everybody was happy.
>>81998986
>since his son is dead
When did they kill off Daken?
>>81999237
That's why I'm happy we're getting an actual Chinese Super-man.
Batwing tried to star a main character from Congo, but it didn't last long.
>>82009585
Collective Man is the only one true hero of the people!
>>81998550
New Wolverine isn't new though, she's literally fucking X-23 who is an established character with a proper connection to Logan. They only threw in the damn name the same way clickbait articles make up shit titles to get views.
>>82000018
>No kid in the US
You do know that Asian Americans exist, right?
>>82008388
I generally agree. Mr Terriffic is a black legacy character, but he's actually a good distinct character on his own, as opposed to say, Steel, who's a mediocre legacy character.
As far as you pure race swap, there's definitely that sort of shit going on, like with new Wally West, and that's almost always complete shit.
I still don't get why don't they make new characters instead, they get to both avoid being shat on by the
existing readerbase and have the most freedom to explore whatever themes they want to,
because hey it's a completly new story with new settings and characters.
The pool of superheroes isn't closed off, new characters can still come and go after all.
Even if there's the issue about poor sales, hijacking existing franchises doesn't guarantee good sales either.
That said the most important is still the execution. Writing, art, characterization, all that lot.
>>82010141
not true.
ms marvel #1 sold like gold for being a muslim legacy character and the same with miles spider-man
two years before that we got spider-mans side-kick Alpha. His comic sold like shit.
>>82010141
BECAUSE NEW IPS DON'T MOVE BOOKS!
It doesn't even matter if that is actually true, but that is the reason why DC and Marvel don't do a lot of new and independent stuff.
With some character they have gone so far as to give them an established name despite a complete lack of relation.
Every character has to be spun off of a running franchise, established and connected.
The problem is that companies are trying to appease an unexisting audience. Even those minority characters who are actually interesting and well-written don't sell and at the same time they lose readership because of shafting characters who do have a fanbase. They really need a better marketing strategy.
>>82011224
Not really. They are writing for their peer group.
Which is a progressive, left-leaning, eco-friendly social media bubble more concerned with virtue signaling than taking actual action.
The writers are essentially thin-skinned twitter addicts who aren't used to being yelled at by total strangers for no good reason other than having a different opinion.
Which is the precise reason I am so fucking zen.
Because having an opinion on 4chan means getting yelled at by everyone and not giving two shits.
>>82011389
Their peer group isn't enough to keep the industry afloat.
