As good as the story may be, I think we can all agree that the art on this is just awful. Even if it's "thematically fitting", it's terrible.
>>81896169
art in this*. the full page shit was fine, but panel by panel, it was 3/10 at best
>>81896169
I agree, I also only view art in how pretty the people look and ignore storytelling and pacing.
>>81896169
totally agree, could've benefitted from art from a true superstar such as Jim Lee or David Finch
>>81896240
>implying the art in TDKR did anything for pacing and storytelling
>implying you couldn't have the same level or pacing and storytelling with art that was drawn by a halfway competent adult
>>81896169
I feel like we've had this thread a lot the past few weeks
>>81896426
Can you guess what major motion picture is the reason for this?
>>81896169
the art was brilliant, pleb
>>81896446
It was awful. You're like those shitposters that say BvS was "deep"
>>81896446
It was lazy and uninspiring. Compare this art in the book to Miller's Wolverine.
>>81896441
Fucking /tv/
>Batman kills a swat team
It's a fucking awful representation of Batman
>muh edge of sanity
That makes it even worse
>>81896312
I hope this is sarcasm
>>81896169
I don't agree at all. Janson really brought his "A Game" to this comic and didn't obfuscate Miller's style too much (which he could be guitly of when inking other pencillers)....the stylisation, the page breakdowns (or "paneling" as /co/ delights in calling it), the character designs, action set pieces...architecture....to me, all was just right. Not perfect but 7/10 EASILY.
Now the sequel WAS badly drawn ansd Sin City was, by and large, terribly drawn (I used to laugh so much at the noobs who thought Miller was this innovative radical by using deep, high contrast chiaroscuro). Just lazy.
>>81896446
Too true mate
>>81896487
Millers Wolverine GN? Yeah that was dope. And probably "better" drawn to boot. But I think it's asinine to say DKR was "awful". Is this just a recent meme 'cause BvS flopped? Be honest....
>>81896321
You're tripping, the rigidity of the layout miller adhered to was pretty innovative for a cape comic at that time and the storytelling was crystal-clear, I bet you could read that comic with no words at all and still make sense of hat was going on.
Maybe I'm defending it because you always look with rose-tinted glasses upon the stuff you consumed as a young kid but DKR is one of those rare "old" cape comics that still holds up today.
Tell me, what do you think is so bad about the art?
The art was fucking amazing. Stylized, and maybe not to your liking, but it fit everything the story was going for. The brutality, the rawness of the art was perfect for it.
The same goes for DKSA, in which the art becomes more vague and fever pitch, with exaggerated fists and earth shaking sex, it again perfectly conveys the tone of the story.
>>81896312
kek
>>81896169
I like the art. It grew on me. Ugly art for an ugly story. TDKSA is another matter, though. There is no excuse for that trash.
>>81896169
The older I get the less I like this book.It's ugly, juvenile, and instead of being the "last batman story" it became "the only way to portray Batman" to a lot of people.
Fuck Frank Miller.
>>81896905
I wasn't saying TDKR was awful. I was saying art was awful
>>81897203
I know, did I give another impression? Sorry. Why in particular do you think the art is so bad, though?
>>81897196
I think it's unfair to say "fuck Frank Miller" and ignore all of his other work.
>>81896169
I'm sorry, but there's no hope for you.
Dark Knight Returns has some of the best art to appear in a comic, ever. If you can't see this, you don't understand anything about art, illustration, composition or sequential storytelling.
>>81897619
I'm sorry, but there's no hope for you.
Dark Knight Returns has some of the worst art to ever appear in a comic, ever. If you can't see this, you don't understand anything about art, illustration, composition, or sequential storytelling.
See, I can do it too
>>81897619
add another sentence and we've got ourselves some fresh pasta
>>81897871
i'm dead
>>81897302
Lazy, unfinished lines and shitty to meh human figures.
>>81897681
Yeah, except you'd be objectively wrong.
The use of page breakdown, tenebrism, massive grids, composition controlling narrative flow from one panel to the next, etc are all breathtaking. There are more genius ideas in this one comic than most artists muster up over an entire career. The draftsmanship is beautiful in its efficiency, not a single line wasted.
>Pages of news talking heads
>Grids keep getting denser
>Contrasted with Bruce Wayne's mental state degrading even further
>Reaches crescendo when a giant bat crashes through a window - which happens to be a massive grid itself
>Perfect visual representation of the 80's barrage of shock rolling news breaking a person's mind
If you don't at least admire the art in this comic for what it achieves, you don't understand art.
>>81897871
Sounds about right.
>>81896169
...I don't even know what to say.
It was exactly right. It was perfect.
>>81898410
>>81898410
The comic literally did none of that. I wish you actually read it, instead of reading a review of it
>>81896169
I like the art and hate the writing. Wanna swap?
>>81898528
>Break down what the art does, with an example
>Y... you never read it! You j... just read a review!
Do you want me to timestamp my dog-eared ten-year-old copy of DKR for you?
>>81898596
Sure. You can have my opinion of hating the Art, and I'll have your opinion of liking it. This way, you become the edgy hater of art, and I become the deluded fanboy of trash.
>>81898619
I've seen better examples of how Zack Snyder's Superman is deep
>>81896169
>>81896212
>>81896240
>>81896312
capefags can't handle good art
>>81898677
Capefags can't handle good movies.
Now that I think about it, they're pretty much exactly the same thing, BvS and TDKR are
>>81898668
You haven't offered a single refutation of my points that isn't ad hominem. Good job.
>>81898677
This. The only people I know besides myself who revere the art in this book as much are artists themselves. It's a masteclass in how to tell a story with visuals.
>>81898789
You don't know artists
Look at this and try to picture Superman's right leg extended.
>>81898410
This. I'm not even a fan of Miller's work that much, but the second someone talks shit of his art, that's when I know I'm talking to someone who has absolutely no idea of how comics work.
Read any of his shit, from Daredevil, to Ronin to DKR, and if you know anything about sequential art and storytelling, you'll know Miller is up there with the best.
His fucking grid work/paneling is superb; you might not even like his style, but that's really not even half of what makes his art great.
>>81897871
Needs more ''Superman is a golem''
>>81898947
Superman's guido-ish face or whatever the fuck in that second panel always gets me.
Other than that, I think it's fine (I never noticed the leg thing until you brought it up).
>>81899165
>I never noticed the leg thing until you brought it up
You must have noticed some thing like that while reading it, the whole comic is a anatomical nightmare swarming with dislocated members of inconsistent shape and size.
>>81898820
>mfw some triggered cuck on a Mongolian basket weaving forum tries to tell me what my own life entails
>>81899002
Exactly. Even if you don't like his stylisation, or the stories he writes, at least respect his command of the medium.
>>81899308
>a anatomical nightmare swarming with dislocated members of inconsistent shape and size
Sounds like you're describing a /d/ image with those floating ghost dicks.
>>81896169
I'd say it was actually perfect.
>>81898410
You expounded on the skeletal points I made very well there, /co/mrade. "Tenebrism", fuck that's a good word, I'm using that more!
>>81898377
Anatomy's undoubtedly important for cape/genrestuff but you could level the exact same criticism at Kirby...Miller's figurework is good to brilliant in DKR. Maybe a few hastily-drawn background characters but the relative economy and dynamism of the human bodies are a masterclass in adventure cartooning.
Also what do you mean by "unfinished lines"? Lines that don't connect up? Loads of artists do that. Or do you mean unfinished as in unrefined? @Caus if there's one thing the art in DKR isn't supposed to be is refined, I think...we're not talking about a fuckin' Fragonard painting, here!
>>81898677
I don't really like to generalise...but it seems that most /co/ capefags can't!
>>81899002
Yup, agreed. Never, ever like Ronin but even then he was pulling off some serious innovation in capestuff. Also, I wonder if that particular comic represents the first most blatant assimilation of manga tropes into Western comics? Just thought of thinking out loud, any ideas, Anons?
>>81901321
>Also, I wonder if that particular comic represents the first most blatant assimilation of manga tropes into Western comics?
As far as i know it is. You figure that at the time Miller was reading Lone Wolf and Cub it wasn't even translated, he was just looking at the images and trying to piece together a story. Once comics companies started reprinting manga in single issues you saw more of a influence on people like Doug Rice or the Image guys
>>81896446
You call this pretty? This is on par with all those "tumblr art" style those infecting comic scene at this moment, and you all really hating it.
>>81896446
You have shit taste, honestly.
>>81901832
>pretty
No one's talking about pretty here, bruh. We're talking about visual storytelling.
If you just want to look at pretty pictures I'm sure you can do better than super hero comics.
>>81901321
>>81901495
remember that TDK thread where a dude got all pissed at the insinuation Miller was huge in manga catching on in the west and influencing american comics
>>81901942
I'd be mad too if I were him, because that's bullshit.
There's a thousand reasons manga caught on in the west, and Miller is not even in the top 10 of those.
>>81902174
The world doesn't revolve around America.
The European comics industry had a much, MUCH greater role in bringing manga to the west than any American artist can claim.
>>81896670
>>Batman kills a swat team
>>81896670
I didn't know Batman likes metal
>>81896169
Well, yeah. Frank Miller is a pretty terrible artist.
>>81897196
I don't think it's fair to blame Miller for the effects of his book's influence, especially since I don't even think it had as much immediate influence as some people make it out. That is, I'm sure the last ten or so years of Batman creators have been influenced by it in one way or another, but I think the 90s Bat-writers under Denny O'Neil were just writing him darker because it was the logical escalation of what Denny himself had been doing with the book in the 70s, and because they all were, like Miller, admittedly big fans of those weird, dark early Golden Age stories, even if they were going off less how they actually were so much as how they REMEMBERED them being.
TL,DR: EVERY Bat-writer in that generation wanted to go darker with it, except for based Max Allan Collins.
>>81902348
He collapsed a tunnel in on them
>>81899165
>Superman's guido-ish face or whatever the fuck in that second panel always gets me.
Dude took a NUKE to the FACE. And not even just a regular nuke, a super-nuke. I think he's entitled to looking a little haggard, even after a couple weeks.
>>81902831
It's one thing to look haggard, it's another entirely to look Italian American
>>81901853
We're not discussing TDKSA though. Nice try.
>>81902814
When?
>>81902318
Which ones
>>81898410
This desu imo kmt senpai baka if you can't handle great cape comics, then why are you even on this board?
>>81896169
No, the story was the worst part.
>>81896169
>inb4 the man with no taste
>>81896169
Art is subjective. Not my favorite style, sure, but didn't bother me at all either.
>>81905421
I think he's referring to this scene, but I don't believe any of those cops "really" died there. It was just a Tunnel of Love after all, and 2 pages later, when Lola says murder has been added to the charges against Batman, she only mentions The Joker (who deliberately broke his own neck because Batman couldn't bring himself to do more than cripple him, framing him with his last laugh).
>>81896969
It`s a stylized kind of ugly
>>81898947
And? I saw Frank Cho's reinterpretation of it. He had far better anatomy but it looked bland by comparison to Miller. Precise anatomy isn't the be-all end-all to art.
inb4
>but muh liefeld strawman
>muh henderson strawman
No. I really like how it's drawn and I like the coloring, too. But even if I didn't, the storytelling/general paneling is nothing short of masterful.
>>81896169
>my opinions are fact!
k.
>>81896169
>>81896169
>I think we can all agree that the art on this is just awful.
No, we can't.
>>81899308
>MUH ANATOMEEE
>>81896670
>>Batman kills a swat team
Nope.
how people turn on their heroes, haha
