Can we have a discussion about the comic book industry and how it can appeal to mass market (disinterested and not invested, those who would read a comic in the bathroom, on a plane, and move on with their lives).
It seems that anything outside of Marvel, Vertigo, and DC doesn't appeal to the mass market except comic strips (you name em). Dark Horse sells to the hardcore gamer niche and I would argue that image still doesn't have mass market appeal.
I think this is a result of not enough marketing and not enough accessible content (I love MouseGuard, but sales show that the majority).
I'm trying to come up with ways in which comics can be marketed that will gain traction (featured on mass media news not comic related news for example - which is very difficult to do).
Do any of you have any useful ways of marketing comics to the mass market? In terms of content, what content do you think the artists and writers should focus on?
Make it cheaper, make it easier to get them, stop doing stupid shit. Sell comics from kiosks in movie theaters during the movies, with printed addresses on where to get more.
Get some commercials going, whether it be on television or just on youtube/web banners.
Diversify comics, not with race/color, but with content. Stop just pushing capes, invest in other genres and people will buy them.
>>81821920
Also, get the house in order. Teach the writers/artists/editors how to interact with people on twitter and stuff so that they don't seem like they're ten year olds.
Cape movies are at its' all time peak with Infinity Wars and Justice League part 2 in 3 years. I don't think anything can top these, as IF p1 and p2 will have a production budget of 1 billion.
In the end, if normies are still not picking up these comics for movies they love, despite the trend of cape movies in pop culture, nothing will. Comic book readers for the DC/Marvel audience won't even make the 1%.
>>81821920
I agree completely but what would spark the initial motivation for a potential disinterested customer to make a purchase decision at the movie theater? (low price?)
I definitely agree with diversifying content, creating an uncontested marketspace of sorts, coupled with low price = high profitability
I never see comic web ads, is it because there is a low return on investment or because people can't afford it or because they shy away from it? I'm not sure about this one.
The house must talk to customers and get feedback, marketing isn't a position, it's everyone's job.
I appreciate your thoughts on this and agree with you, hopefully we can pin point some interesting ways for low budget indies to reach mass market.
What about digital distribution? or rather strictly digital distribution? Think it might work or it makes it more difficult for people to access content. What about if you're an international comic studio operating from a country which isn't comic popular, how should these guys reach NA/EU markets?
>>81821988
that's interesting. Is there any sort of graph/numbers to show the trend of transitioning customers from watching movies to buying the comics. Is there a visible correlation?
>>81822141
If they're disinterested, they don't care one way or another. The difference is availability. If someone is going to see a Captain America movie, and he sees a Captain America stand-alone comic, there's probably a good chance that he'll buy it. He's already shelling out $20 for ticket+popcorn anyways.
I can't answer the web banner question, but they must cost nothing to make. You take a cover of a comic, and slap it on a nerd site with some text, "PREPARE YOURSELF FOR DAREDEVIL'S NEXT STORY!" or some bullshit like that. They just don't seem to care about growing, and be content with the market share that they currently have.
Digital only is an issue. Neither of the big 2 want to be the company that kills the LCS. I think it's necessary and inevitable, but as it stands it's really the only place for people to go and get comics outside of amazon/ist.
>>81822198
The only correlation is that #1's sell 100,000 copies, and movies make $600 million dollars. A healthy book will have a #15 sell 45,000. People seeing the moves are not having any noticeable impact on comic sales. It's still all speculator markets looking for those #1s and events.
You niggas are forgetting about Diamond
>>81822340
Is there such a high drop off rate? Do people not buy issues as the comic continues? I assume they don't transition to graphic novels because the compilation volume also sells so they would be getting more in profits.
What about an indie, how can they turn heads at a movie theater? should an indie approach digital only? What if they operate abroad and need it to reach EU/NA markets at low cost?
>>81822480
The cancer of the comic industry. But everyone is too scared to try someone else because they're the only one around.
>>81822502
You can check comichron, all the numbers are there (well, physical sales anyways, all the companies keep their digital numbers secret [but they SWEAR that they sell a lot for the shitty books that /co/ hates and have low physical numbers]).
This chart that I made a while ago is pretty standard. Issue 2 is usually a drop of a third from the number one, issue 3 is about half of that and so on. I remember an article Dwayne McDuffie wrote where he found the predictable ratio for basically all big 2 comics. Early reader loss is a huge problem, and then there's almost always a decline as the book goes on.
The floppy/trade debate is long and boring. Need floppy sales to get the trades, but trades are more consumer friendly.
Indies are basically fucked.
>>81821466
>Dark Horse sells to the hardcore gamer niche
Nigga you what?
>>81822737
Oh, and almost all upticks in sales are from gimmicks.
Whether it be a tie-in for another book, or a guest artist, or a variant cover. It's very rare to see a book that just has good word of mouth and get continual growth of the books.
Make every floppy $1.
>>81822834
>indies are basically fucked
I refuse to believe that, there has to be a solution.
Do you really need floppys to sell trade? What about stand alone graphic novels that sold really well
also would you be interested in discussing this further (IM or something) I'm very new to comics but I'm a business guy so I'm interested in this.
>>81823167
The writers/artists need to money that comes form monthly sales no trades every 6 months
>>81822836
We'll have to see how well the Rebirth oneshot does at 80 pages for 2.99
Because no way is it going to sell more than Civil War 2 #0 or #1, and nobody will want to do that ever again
A comic that you read in 20 minutes (max) is generally not worth 3,4,5 dollars. Why are they all printed on glossy pages? It's so stupid.
>>81823262
let me propose something and I want you to scrutinize this revenue model.
Ignore weekly floppys, release accumulated content that would have been released as volumes every 6 months as Trades, charge the market price (less if you're indie).
I think this would work if you have the initial investment/take the risk of persevering for 6 months.
I think this would retain interest on the long run (a couple or so years) also it will leave the IP not "drained" as there is a gap where consumers get to catch their breath meaning even if it ends there will still be demand for continuation guaranteeing high merchandising profits + rebirth/spinoff/continuation would be demanded
>>81821466
>a result of not enough marketing
I disagree. I don't think the problem is marketing. I think we have a problem with quality. All those editors meddling in the creative process ruin it for everyone. They should let writers write and artists draw. Also, they should alter the way they reward their creative dept.
>>81823380
>20 minutes
You're being too generous. Paying 5 dollars for something that 'entertain' you for 5 minutes is shit.
The issue is that comics don't make enough money for the companies to care. Even shitty films earn multiples of their yearly comic sales. In a perfect world, disney/WB would subsidize the costs of their comics and just not worry about sales so they can farm the IP for their films.
Basically an R&D department.
>>81823380
3 bucks for 20 minutes of entertainment seems fair, especially if those 20 minutes of entertainment were of high quality and if until the next issue you have stuff to discuss with others. Problem is when a comic is 4 or 5 bucks, you read it in 3 minutes and you don't find it very entertaining.
>>81823440
Too much risk of incompletion. Month to month floppies are nice to give people steady work and keep them consistently working. Not to mention you'd have no way of gauging interest in the book, namely how many books you need to order.
You also don't know what you're buying, by having both floppies and trades, you know exactly what kind of content youre getting.
>>81823448
Editorial meddling is not new, at all.
>>81823748
people are working consistently, they just need to keep the motivation going. I agree that it's more motivating to push content often and see it bring in cash but on the long run it's disastrous.
People push so much quantity that most of it has no quality, it doesn't push sales number. Just a sea of mediocrity.
Don't get me wrong, the majority of indie is crap but those that really put in the hard work and effort and in my opinion have good content (MouseGuard for example), how come the market doesn't reward them. Is it because the market is disinterested as a whole or because they don't even know this side of comics exists (lack of marketing?)
>>81823448
It's both. Comic books on average are poorly written, drawn, and edited. But the marketing is also an issue. They are content to just sit on their current audience than to actually try and branch out.
>>81823976
how should they (and indies) branch out in your opinion?
>>81823380
>Why are they all printed on glossy pages? It's so stupid.
This was brought up in another thread, and based on some kind of interviews, it was revealed that
1) Glossy pages are now around the same cost as non-glossy/pulpy pages
2) Black-and-white coloring costs as much colored pages
It mostly boils down to the fact that the infrastructure for the older methods has vanished, so reverting to old practices isn't feasible (not in the short-term, anyway).
>>81823870
People work consistently until delays occur. And delays always occur in comics. Floppies are much safer because you only need to plan a month or two in advance instead if half a year.
The market doesn't reward them because the market is stupid. The people buying books are doing so because it's a character they like, not because of the writing. The general public has shit taste, and they always will.
They need to stop advertising solely to people already buying comics. Sure you can try and get someone buying spiderman to pick up a daredevil issue (which btw, you can't do with trades because lack of ads and the higher cost), but it's still such a small market. I bet a million people tops buy comics a week. That's shit.
They need to insert their brands into other areas to convince those people to buy in and be new readers. Put ads in commercials, in actual magazines, get the movie stars to give actual endorsements for this shit. Their current model is just so lazy that let's them do nothing
>>81824252
If that's true, then we're just paying salaries to the writers and shit. Because manga is so cheap nowadays, people in Japan just throw them away when they're done reading them. It's like a newspaper. It's a different market so it's dumb to compare them, but still.
But I find it hard to believe that bw/pulpy printing is the same cost as color/glossy printing.
>>81824252
>Glossy pages are now around the same cost as non-glossy/pulpy pages
I asked Brandon Graham about production of Image trades and he said newsprint has actually become more expensive than the standard glossy paper.
analyze this whole situation from the perspective of what is the job that a comic fulfills. Sure entertainment but break it down a bit more and go from there (eg archie creates a feeling of youth, dilbert reminds us of how stupid management is, iron man shows us cool tech we wish we could invent and use)
Maybe that's why indies are failing, their comics don't fulfill a job and it's hard for the mass market to relate to that as opposed to stupid management which we deal with everyday
>>81824781
The job of a comic is to be bought by someone.
The reason why those someone's aren't buying indie comics is because the name on the front cover isn't batman.
I think you're over thinking it
>>81825125
from a company's perspective maybe but from the customer's perspective the comic has another job. The reason people are talking about price above is because they feel prices don't justify current content.
I think aspects of what each of the biggest 3 companies are doing is pretty smart:
* Image is releases their books in around 4-6 chapter bursts (well, with their biggest series, and in an ideal world, with all of their books). After that, there's a break, the trade is released, and then the series returns. I think the breaks should be shorter, but it's not a bad method.
* Marvel literally takes the TV season method as a way of always making their books inviting, even in a big shared universe.
* DC is putting effort into releasing their books more often. DC also takes another page from the manga industry by clearing emphasizing arcs. We still need to see how DC's biweekly format plays out, but I'm confident that -- at least, sales-wise -- it won't be a failure.
Still, even if you put all of these things together, you're missing a crucial element: people just aren't as open to reading "comic books" as they are to, say, consuming anime/manga.
IMO, the biggest reason behind this is that American/Western comic books are too popular among adults and not popular enough among kids. There are any number of reasons to this (the industry is structured to both listen to and receive money from people who have enough money and agency to buy their books; everyone else doesn't exist). But the end result is that you have something that is -- and will likely always be -- considered "childish" compared to literature, yet is consumed primarily by adults.
Put another way, you get a less extreme version of how the public perceives My Little Pony.
Manga is read for lots of reasons, but a large reason why sales in all areas are fairly stable is because the biggest books are, by name, marketed to boys and girls. It's not enough to make a "family friendly" book or even a "family friendly" line of books: you have to make a point to say, "Spider-Man, Batman, Avengers, Justice League, etc.: these books now written for a 9-12 year old, although everyone should find something to enjoy."
>>81825444
(cont)
From there, you just have to find a way to skillfully divvy up the rest of the lineup. Slightly racier books for older teens, adult/free-for-all material for older readers, etc.
>>81825476
so you're saying indies are screwed? I think if they had financial backing of some sort (not much, I mean comics don't cost much) and they were committed enough to do something on the long term before they see revenue (6 months) they may succeed. This is due to exploring different consumer consumption habits (no brand name, low quantity content for relatively high price (because how much are you really going to undercut the big companies who benefit from economies of scale on floppys) + weekly = content + cash burnout.
Same reason why episodic gaming fails
>>81826032
The problem is that it's a huge gamble. What happens when your book that you've been working on for six months only moves 500 units, and you end up in the hole? Floppies allow you to test the market and see if the book you're selling is actually wanted.
Whatever indie publisher is now out a ton of cash because they've been forwarding payments to the artist/writer for six months and to get a book paid for.
The costs involved make comics and episodic games a poor comparison.
>>81826032
>so you're saying indies are screwed?
Eh. I mean, in a way, yeah -- especially in the short-term. Diamond and floppies are probably the best way for indies to not be completely screwed -- if things were slightly different than they are now, then they'd be fucked. I mean, hell, a large reason why Diamond still exists is because the structure benefits indies so much.
>>81826558
I agree with you but as you saw from the sales posted above. It's very difficult to string people along for so long, while if you give people the adequate break times (much longer for games) they get more interested (think how many people watched lotr 1 and 2 after 3 was released) this is why sequels are good while episodic content isn't (it's the same in a way - but the content involved + break time is perceived differently)
>>81826652
how easy is it for an indie to get Diamond to distribute their work?
>>81822836
Won't work without them being much more widely available. At the very least, they should be selling the 'key' titles (Avengers, Spider-man, Batman, Superman) in supermarkets.
>>81823448
>>81823869
Indeed. In fact, when comic sales peaked in the mid '80s (the all-time peak on a par with the '60s - one of these eras may have been slightly ahead of the other), there was loads of editorial 'meddling', and it didn't stop some of the classic runs on many characters.
>>81826725
anyone know the answer?
>>81821920
>invest in other genres and people will buy them
We'll see what happens with WB Hanna Barbera stuff. Marvel's Romance line failed miserably in the mid 2000s.
Nobody likes floppies, it's time for them to go away and do trades like every sane reader wants. The short-term loss of profits from variants and stupid crap like that will more than be made up for by the huge boost in readership when you release your entertainment in a format that doesn't require your potential customers to hunt down a mom and pop store and can just buy at any bookstore.
>>81830717
Bookstores are mostly mom and pop besides Barnes and Noble. And floppies are sold and B&N
>>81830717
agreed. there are also many other reasons
>perceived value gain from price/content
>no longer need to string customer's attention overtime
>adequate breaks between content releases- enough to increase excitement
>adheres to customer consumption habits. A chapter on the bus/bathroom means that the customer will feel good knowing there is still a another chapter every time except the last time.
>>81830717
I like floppies and I think floppies have their place. There are two main issues with floppies currently.
1) they are far too expensive, they should go back to cheap paper and drop the prices
2) no one is writing for anything but the trade, writers who want to tell a long ass story should just put out OGNs like Morrison is trying to force DC to realize by swearing off of monthlies
>>81821466
Trades are the future
>>81831095
DC is obviously shifting focus to trades
Donald Pocket is already mass marked. Just not in USA, because Disney is retarded in USA.
Also the US translators is really shit.
Part of the reason Spriou, Tintin and others is not as popular as they should be, is the shit translators.
Imagine this, floppies become purely digital.
Trades still exist.
Variant covers now get turned into regular posters that you can just buy separately.
>>81831095
what's OGNs?
>>81831608
Original graphic novel, senpai. Google it next time.
>>81831623
thanks do you know how easy it is for indies to get Diamond to distribute their stuff?
>>81831653
No you sperg, I'm not an indy publisher. Go ask someone on Twitter.
