Kingdom Come supes was the most evil crazy dickish supes in any story were he wasnt out and out evil.
And that includes Injustice, TDKR and MOS.
And whats fucked up is that he is portrayed as in the right and gets a happy ending when the whole books is just him and other heroes acting like assholes and causing literally all the problems.
But you give it fancy art and a fuck the 90s message and everyone laps it up.
Fuck this book, even its Waid didnt like it.
>Armageddon has arrived
Only worth page in whole story.
Did you even read it? You're an idiot. You clearly misunderstood everything.
Oh wait, this is bait. ALMOST had me there.
>>81626574
So how was he evil?
>>81626574
The "edgy heroes" blew up and entire state. The JLA came back to stop shit from getting even more out of control. You're an idiot if you didn't see that.
TDKR Superman was one of the better Superman portrayals.
>>81626758
Go to chemo Miller.
>>81626574
Back then, Waid was butthurt for the 90s antiheroes trend, the silver age heroes like Hal Jordan and Barry Allen passing the torch to a new generation and Superman only being relevant by dying. Kingdom Come was his butthurt concentrated in one book.
Waid can admit now that he may go too far in some places but the average capefags refuse to let his toys
The idea that Superman would quit for over a decade and become a hermit, because somewhere in the world, some vigilante was cheered on by people for offing a mass murderer is pretty absurd. Most functional adults would be unaffected and completely unsurprised by such a thing. Does this Superman watch the news?
>>81626887
One of the defining Superman portrayals desu.
>>81626574
so i shouldnt buy this as my next supes paperback??
>>81626845
>>81626758
I don't get why TDKR Superman receives so much hate. Sure, he was there to make Batman to look cool and TDKR was the final blow to Superman's popularity and put Batman at the top of DC but Superman was still a good guy trying to do the right thing and he loved mankind so much that he was willing to swallow his pride and become a government pawn just to have the chance to help other people. I find him way more inspirational than KC Superman
>>81626968
Not really. There are vigilantes in the mainstream DCU, just like in the real world, and Superman hasn't quit because of them. A few heroes who use lethal force are even on the Justice League.
>>81626574
gr8 b8 m8
>>81627108
Vigilantes existing and the people loving the shit out of them for murdering people was not the case.
>>81627108
holy shit do people just not remember the comic.
It didn't have superman go 'man look at these vigilantes...well guess i quit'.
It was the public turning on him and his methods and him feeling impotent in the wake of this new kind of hero that the people all seemed to prefer following the death of the woman he loved. Not just that there were one or two vigilantes that happened to be doing some shit.
>>81627108
>A few heroes who use lethal force are even on the Justice League.
Arthur, Diana and Sex Luthor, right?
>>81627184
There's plenty of love for various Mexican vigilantes who target cartels.
>>81627091
>loved mankind so much
>thinks they're stupid
>acts towards mankind with comtempt "you're just flesh and blood like the rest of them"
>>81627237
>holy shit do people just not remember the comic
You're implying they read it at all.
>>81627295
As opposed to love for Mexican superman?
>>81626574
ow the edge
>>81627301
Superman was like a father. He had to take a job he hates for his stupid kids who don't appreciate the sacrifice he makes
Batman is the "cool" teenager. He does what he wants and not think in the consequences
>>81627341
>Mexican superman?
?
>>81627033
buy it
>>81627306
i read it
>>81627462
Well in kingdom come people love the vigilantes rather than superman.
Is there some mexican superman I don't know about to not give a shit about the mexican people loving their vigilantes? Cos I feel like the comparison only really works if theres a mexican superman to no longer be loved.
>>81627536
>Is there some mexican superman I don't know about
Yes, his name is Bill Wall
>>81626677
I did understand it, thats what makes it worse.
It's a propaganda book, and like propaganda its usually a Mediocre story but because its propaganda, that story allows you to see the "message" they were pushing, which was sickening.
>>81629294
>I did understand it, thats what makes it worse.
>It's a propaganda book, and like propaganda its usually a Mediocre story but because its propaganda, that story allows you to see the "message" they were pushing, which was sickening.
if wasn't for Ross art nobody would care about this book
>>81627462
'Gods and Monsters', babe.
>>81627108
So your argument boils down to
>not muh
?
>>81629294
>It's a propaganda book, and like propaganda its usually a Mediocre story
>He said in /co/mblr
>>81626703
>>81626702
Magog went to far with going for Parasite and then that blew up Kansas. He was wrong for that, which is why he turned himself in. (Not to the cops, for mis handling the conflict, but to Supes private gang.)
Let track what Waid and Ross had the "heroes" do.
1.Superman quits because Magog got off a court case. Superman, defender of truth justice and american way, abandons humanity over a COURT CASE. Nevermind thr countless questionable court csses, or that Superman so respects American law that he didnt intervene with LUTHOR became President, Superman goes into a whiny fit because the people. "Abandoned him" and quits, despite the fact they never actually told him to leave. The premise is projecting the "fuck 90s" message and so Supes comes off as a total dick.
2. After Supes leaves all the other heroes just fall back. Despite there own priorities and origins and backmstories and motives without Supes everyone falls apart. So you know, fuck the rest of the DC Universe.
3. The 90s heroes, because they are not characters, but a faceless horde meant to symbolize Waid and Ross not liking the 90s just ravage the world tearing up shit. And because without Superman EVERY other hero is impotent, it keeps going on. With a helpless government despite the countless heroes that would work for them.
4. Superman comes back after Kansas because Wonder Woman, as she is in all elseworlds is both a fascist and wants to fuck Superman. So despite her or anyone else actually handling what they should have done ages ago. She crawls to Superman and begs him to help. And because this Superman is total shit, he doesnt actually help until it becomes personal for him.
5.Superman then goes and rounds up countless superhumans in an illegal gulag unless they work for his superdraft.(Notice how when Iron man does basically the same shit in Civil War he is demonized bur Superman gets to look all good because YEAH FUCK EDGY 90S KIDZ) Extra points for having two young girls swoon over how totally cool and awesome the old man telling these young whippersnapoers whats for is. Because when you have to tell your readers a speach is good, it totally means it must be good
6. Batman and Green Arrow seem to call out Superman for going totally batshit crazy but there "Democratic solution" instead of actually adressing the clear issues,just fight like crazy dicks
7. Bats and Supes then procede to act like total dicks instead of reasonably dealing with things so now we have a Superhuman cold war threatening to ravage the world. The exact Problem superman was trying to "stop"
8. Lex has Billy rip open Supermans retarded prison and lets loose all his prisoners who, because they arenr characters and are instead just a glorified politcal cartoon are now a ravaging horde of death instead of actual people
9. Superman, fucking SUPERMAN actually thinks "maybe we all deserve to die".
10. Then the UN sends nukes to the horde of super death and Superman, fucking tells Billy "You are both human and super, you decide which of us deserves to live" so not only does he even bother to save both of them, Clark fuckinh KENT says Billy is the only one who can decide who gets to live
11.Billy tanks the nuke and dies, but most of them die anyway.
12. Superman then goes crazy and tries to murdur the UN in cold blood despite, him just moments before saying "maybe we DO all need to die"
13. Alex Ross' dad talks down Superman, and then he gives a speech and is all forgivven besides the countless abombinations he did in this book
14. Superman unilaterally orders the League into the UN and brainwashes the villians for him, and this is there idea of a "happy ending "
Kingdom Come was basically a politcal cartoon stretched out over four issues, Superman is a total crazy asshole because he isnt Superman he is just the writers projecting there rage on the 90s onto him. Ironically Magog the big "take that Liefeld" character is the only guy to take responsibility for his crimes (TWICE!) and one of them, unlike the "heroes" actions, was an accident. Waid and Ross constantly fought because of how OOc Waid found Superman and how dark the story was, but people give the story a pass because of great art and a good "message."
Fuck Kingdom Come. 90s books had crap yeah, but we didnt need a bunch of Silver Age guys acting like psychos so some old men can act out there spite and the industry using heroes as mouth pieces.
>>81626865
I really want to read an Illuminate Guy or Mightygod King or muh phoenix satire of KC
>>81627237
They didnt even turn on him! They got Magog off and he caught feelings like a bitch.
Waid just projected his butthurt onto superman in universe which makes him come off as a nutjob
>>81626574
>Infintite Crisis was a satire of Kingdom Come
Bravo Johns
>>81626574
>MoS superman was evil
FUCKING MEME, JUST DIE ALREADY!
>>81626574
>Superman was evil in TDKR
No, that's just Millar complaining about how much he hates Superman. Kal was actually in the right that whole book, Bruce was just mad because he's slowly turning into a pumpkin while Clark looks as fresh as he ever did, all Batman did in that was rip off Lex's shtick, and everyone loved him for it.
That was a shit comic, by a shit writer, with even worse artwork.
>>81634855
I feel like we already had this thread this week
>>81634855
>No, that's just Millar complaining about how much he hates Superman
That's just you misinterpreting Miller's position on the matter
>hurr Batman beats him up so obviously the writer must hate Supes
>>81634995
>that art
Reminder the Imagine Dragon song 'Demons' is literally this but in music form
>>81626574
yep total dick, totally?
>>81635115
Miller is a better artist than Ross.
>>81627274
Hawkman
>>81635194
You must have been here for a long time ro have developed such amazing bait.
>>81630786
>Superman comes back after Kansas because Wonder Woman, as she is in all elseworlds is both a fascist and wants to fuck Superman.
This made me chortle. I just reread Red son last night, too. I feel like making a graph for a bunch of DC elseworlds
>Is WW a fascist?
>Does she want to fuck superman?
>Do they fuck?
>Result of them fucking or not fucking?
>>81630786
>or that Superman so respects American law that he didnt intervene with LUTHOR became President,
That happened yet, in the real world the storyline that made Luthor the president wasn't even being written at the time.
>>81634995
Miller thought Superman could be a bully in 1980. But his position changed. You have to understand Miller was heavily influenced by cinema. Dirty Harry, Japanese samurai films. He consumed all sorts of influences most artists in comics never look at. For Superman Dick Donner's version clearly was Miller's inspiration. The character is heavily patriotic, concerned with saving people rather than fighting crime. If you watch the History channel documentary on comics, they have a nice interview with Frank, were he says something along the lines of 'i hated that people assume these guys would get along. Batman is this dark character concerned with vengeance and Superman isn't that at all. They would clash."
>>81630786
damn right (WW is not a facist) but the rest you get right.
this is a stupid story
>>81634995
You look at this iteration of superman and another thing that stands out his he does what Morrison said was the key to his action comics run. Physical strain. Superman is ALWAYS throwing something, lifting something. He's being hit by things. He's this big action man. Of course he's also sane, compassionate, and humble. The opposite of Batman.
>>81630927
>Fuck Kingdom Come. 90s books had crap yeah, but we didnt need a bunch of Silver Age guys acting like psychos so some old men can act out there spite and the industry using heroes as mouth pieces.
>old men
I think the crazy thing is that Ross and aid weren't even that old to be that nostalgically attached. Waid was 34, and Ross was only 25(!) when he painted KC. It's all ill placed nostalgia for a generation they were too young to really grasp. they're from the same generation as the guys from Image comics; Ross is actually younger than Lee, Liefeld, and McFarlane.
>>81635431
Diana is very much a fascist if you go by her politics given by her creator. that all the world really needs is a strongman to guide the weak masses. Just replace strongman with woman and aryan with amazon and she could literally be described as fascistic.
>>81635296
Ross is a generic painter who'd be doing Hallmark cards if he didn't ride in on the fact that comic reading dullards are impressed by realism in art. Miller, on the other hand, is a top tier cartoonist.
>>81635139
Holy shit u r rite
>>81635177
That was Johns doing his whole meta commentary redemption thing, same as with Parralax.
Thus his anti giving up stance
>>81635304
Dc had a bit of a canon joke were Booster found out whenver superman and di hook up the world ends
>>81635522
Missed how a man shouting lasers out his eyes is realism. His artwork is stiff but amazing. KC is one of the great works produced in the medium in terms of storytelling, artwork, and influence. The fact that Ross has failed to grow as an artist since then doesn't diminish Kingdom Come.
>>81635313
It's the principle, Superman isnt a petty bitch like Ross. He would never leave Humanity over something like that.>>81635511
She was compared by her maker to FDR and the elections of Hitler and Mussolibi, the idea of being given poeer by love and submission and bot coquering
>>81635296
>thinking Ross art is anything other than garbage
You must be new around here.
>>81635758
>it depicts a fantastic act so it isn't realism!
that's not how it works.
>>81635471
I find nostalgia actually is stronger for folks who were not there to see it. They idolize and fetishize a past that never was.
>>81635758
Storytelling and influence? How?
>>81635758
>Missed how a man shouting lasers out his eyes is realism
You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
>>81630786
>Wonder Woman, as she is in all elseworlds is both a fascist
... Yes wanting to personally imprison people you KNOW for a fact have committed crimes and put lives in danger and who can't be held by normal prisons long enough to get dew process is fascism, GO TO FUCKING HELL!
>>81630822
>Superman then goes and rounds up countless superhumans in an illegal gulag unless they work for his superdraft
Yes because they are actively causing the deaths of hundreds of people accident or no and human prisons won't hold them,
I fucking love when people demonize people for faintly facistical solutions and yet don't offer a alternate solution because they know for a fact their is no other solution but to let more death to take place.
How the fuck was TDKR's Superman evil or even villainous, he was a antagonist to the main character obviously, but that is not the same thing as being villainous.
If you re read the ENTIRETY of his monologue while fighting the Russian troops its clear he has given up his free will so that his friends will not be hunted down and killed as long as they retire.
You say yeah but he personally tore Arrow's arm off, so what? If we have to have 1 Superhuman allowed to operate, Superman can save more lives in a day then Arrow can in several years.
You bitch about Superman defending American interest, so fucking what the Russians illegally invaded a country full of innocent civilians we wish to protect, Superman has ever more right to protect those innocents from invaders.
>>81635758
>KC is one of the great works produced in the medium in terms of storytelling, artwork, and influence
>>81637124
I guess people can't accept that good guys occasionally butt heads. That, or folks think every incarnation of Superman (or superheroes in general, really) have to be exactly the same.
>>81627091
>I don't get why TDKR Superman receives so much hate.
Because most people complaining or praising TDKR didn't really read TDKR.
I mean for fuckssake, Zack Snyder didn't understand how crucial Batman not killing in that comic was even though Miller spelled it out in some of the pages.
>>81637305
>Because most people complaining or praising TDKR didn't really read TDKR
I feel like most people who actually read TDR don't take away anything other than " man the fight scene was so great when Batman kick Superman in the face"
>>81630786
>or that Superman so respects American law that he didnt intervene with LUTHOR became President,
The President Luthor story didn't happen till years after Kingdom Come was published though
>>81637378
but the people who say that don't hate on TDKR Superman and in fact probably take him at face value
>>81637378
Kinda like how the only thing people take away from Watchmen is "Boy, Rorschach is badass".
>>81637449
Depends though. But both its fans and critics somehow forgot all the key points about TDKR Superman within its text:
-Before Batman retired, the government was going to crack down on superheroes because of Batman and Green Arrow's actions.
-Superman willingly joined them because it was a way to save more lives and prevent the government from arresting superheroes and learning their identities.
-Superman got weakened by a nuclear blast and lack of sunlight.
-By the time of the showdown, Superman wasn't at full power.
-Batman had more to lose so he was fighting for his life (and to make it a big show for the government) and then fake his death.
-Superman also didn't want to kill Bruce.
There was a shitload more going on and people just take a shallow read of it. There's times I think Miller did DK2 for people who were too dumb to get DKR.
>>81637305
>I mean for fuckssake, Zack Snyder didn't understand how crucial Batman not killing in that comic was even though Miller spelled it out in some of the pages.
Except he did kill in the comic.
>>81637898
>Except he did kill in the comic.
The only time he could've killed was the whole thing with Joker, and even that leaned more toward "Joker broke his own neck".
And before you suddenly bring up the time he shot a Mutant gang member, remember the following quotes happened after that sequence (but prior to the Joker's death):
"Rubber bullets. Honest."
"And there's only one thing to do about him that makes any sense to me--just press the trigger and blast him from the face of the Earth. Though that means crossing a line I drew for myself thirty years ago."
"How many times do I have to say it, Morrie? Batman hasn't killed anybody..."
>>81638137
It wasn't his gun, it was a m60 machine gun he took off one of the gang members.
>>81636799
>>81637073
There was no othr solution because the edgy heroes were a faceless horde meant to push a mesaage and not actual characters
>>81637398
He was using that as an example of Superman's character(as in moral character not character as in fiction)
>>81637898
No he didn't, the the fate of the mutant he shot was ambiguous, and Commissioner Yindel didn't have "murder" in the charges against Batman.
>>81638686
>It wasn't his gun,
That doesn't help your argument as much as you think it does.
oh boy is Kingdom Come the next super popular comic its going to be a meme to hate?
>>81637124
>You say yeah but he personally tore Arrow's arm off, so what?
he personally tore Arrow's arm so what
so what?!
>>81638926
Yes it does, it proves he wasn't using rubber bullets.
>>81636799
She also wanted to torture and kill the said prisoners, m8.
>>81626865
I always thought the commentary felt really heavy-handed and smelled of butthurt, but I still think it's an entertaining enough book.
>>81635304
>>81635729
Man, there are so many Elseworlds stories where Wonder Woman is treated like the awesome consolation prize for Superman dick after Lois dies.
I'll forever blame Marv Wolfman and Phil Jimenez for this.
![[implying].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/RnKVTG1.jpg "[implying].jpg")
>>81627108
Superman went and intentionally drained his powers (stopped being Superman) after he killed Mr Mixalot once.
So Superman's unreasonableness isn't all that out of character.
>>81630786
>Superman quits because Magog got off a court case. Superman, defender of truth justice and american way, abandons humanity over a COURT CASE.
This board is so full of autists and casuals. He didn't quite because of the court case, but because he was afraid that Magog had become the man of tomorrow. That his method of justice is what the people thought was right, as seen when they cheer because Magog is the one who finally had the balls to kill the psycho-maniac, the Joker.
Similar theme in Superman vs the Elite animated movie. How Superman's truth and justice way has been replaced for a more violent perverse justice.
You're other points are just as retarded or you just have poor reading comprehension.
>>81641439
That's still a stupid reason to quit humanity, anon. Just because Magog got off jail and was cheered for killing the Joker that isn't enough reason for him to pack his things and go home.
Superman vs the Elite is just as bad. Casey was extremely butthurt with the success of the Authority.
rt OP, only thing worthwhile in this book is the art. Waid is one of the biggest hacks in comics.
>>81639706
Idiot, the reason "rubber bullets" was brought up is that it's an example of him not killing, not that he used rubber bullets in that scene where he fired a shot at the Mutant gang member.
It's that action, on top of him implying he hadn't broken his code yet with the Mutant Leader, and Lana Lang specifying that Batman hadn't been charged with murder that puts more evidence against him having killed the Mutant gang member.
>>81641759
Kelley wrote it and it was amazing. Only edge lords and SJW's hate TJA.
>>81639335
Meme? This is nothing new. Waid even joked it won every eisner except for writing.
>>81637164
It influenced the direction and design of all DC's major characters. Twenty years after it was written not only was it still refed', elements were still being explored. The Nu52 was the first true outright rejection of Kingdom theory.
>>81641439
They didnt even tell him to leave, he just flew off and doomes countless lives because of a passive agressive hissy fit
>>81643237
Almost every
>Fuck edgy
Comic is horrible because they are fundamnetally politcal tracts, which almost always suck.
I fucking love Kelly, talked to him for 90 min straight and got ikj signed, but That story wasnt good.
Also sjw? Wat
>>81643411
Kingdom theory?
guys just stop. the person criticizing kingdom come is incredibly autistic. its one extreme or the other. he's made up his mind because he doesn't understand subtlety or nuance its just "blergh soopahman is facist@!" youre basically debating an "A is A" robot.
>>81643600
He thinks that Silver Age nostalgia was influenced by Kingdom Come.
>>81643608
Kingdom Come isn't a good comic.
Justice was a good Alex Ross' Justice League story, Kingdom Come wasn't.
I fucking hate Superman and specially Wonder Woman in Kingdom Come. Even Batman who controlled Gotham with an iron fist through his Bat-Robots was a better and more reasonable person than Superman and Wonder Woman in it.
And i'm not even OP.
>>81643608
Dude, you cant keep getting the "you didnt get it"
We get the joke. It's just not a good one.
I thought it was a fun read. I loved the art; character designs like Batman and Alan Scott's were really cool
>>81641759
You're forgetting that people all across the US were telling him to fuck off, and this is after Magog chided him for not killing the man who killed his wife. Clark lost Lois and then the nation said 'Fuck you, you weak faggot' and so he decided to hand in the cape because god-forbid Clark act like a human being capable of being wounded during a time of grief.
>>81627274
also hal as of sinestro corp. but they only use lethal force as a last resort
>>81644093
>You're forgetting that people all across the US were telling him to fuck off
Not everybody and this isn't a good reason for Superman to quit like a fucking manchild.
>>81644162
>Ignoring the other important part of the post
You have to read nigga, goddamn.
I love that in his second run on Legion of Super -Heroes Waid just bitches about old fans not willing to accept new things
>>81644218
Grief isn't a good enough excuse. He sat on his ass and watched the world go to shit and did nothing. It would be one thing if he left for space and cut contact, but he was there.
>>81640688
>Man, there are so many Elseworlds stories where Wonder Woman is treated like the awesome consolation prize for Superman dick after Lois dies.
>I'll forever blame Marv Wolfman and Phil Jimenez for this.
why this is their fault?
>>81644093
>You're forgetting that people all across the US were telling him to fuck off, and this is after Magog chided him for not killing the man who killed his wife. Clark lost Lois and then the nation said 'Fuck you, you weak faggot' and so he decided to hand in the cape because god-forbid Clark act like a human being capable of being wounded during a time of grief.
if USA hates him, why not just help people around the world? just give USA a banana and go save people anywhere else.
>>81644347
They started the bullshit with Wonder Woman falling for Superman in her despite Superman hooking up with Lois in his comic. So from that point forward Wonder Woman kept acting as a rejected teenager in love whenever Superman popped up in her comic to the point where Superman had reject her twice because she made a move on him despite knowing that he was with Lois.
From then on out writers kept doing this shit over and over in Elseworlds. Then the cartoons came and finally it was Batman time to reject her.
I honestly don't see the problem with KC. It's not perfect, but it's an interesting take on what happens to superheroes after they're long-established in the public eye.
Magog being a more pro-active cape that was willing to kill the Joker and the public supporting him is exactly the sort of shit that would inevitably happen in a reality with supers. At some point, people will be fed up and want more edgy capes to take matters in their own hands.
We've all seen the stories where the public fears and mistrusts capes. Justice League Unlimited's Cadmus Arc for example touched on this.
Well what happens when you have people wanting a change from wholesome idealism? Superheroes are no more than vigilantes with public approval. Real-life vigilantes have gotten support so why not someone like Magog who kills mass murderers like the Joker?
The edgy younger generation of heroes that replaced the old guard is natural. You always have the new kids think they can one-up the elders.
If anything, KC is a great coming-of-age story about how superheroes and the public have to deal with one another as time goes on. And it actually addresses the idea of heroes having fatigue and wariness as the years go by and their sense of altruism erodes.
>>81644302
Waid himself said this was ooc and fought Ross on it
>>81644283
Or how IC was Johns mocking this story to hell >>81644536
The premise wasnt wrong. A the "good guys".acting like crazy dicks and getting everyone killed was
>>81644501
>They started the bullshit with Wonder Woman falling for Superman in her despite Superman hooking up with Lois in his comic. So from that point forward Wonder Woman kept acting as a rejected teenager in love whenever Superman popped up in her comic to the point where Superman had reject her twice because she made a move on him despite knowing that he was with Lois.
>From then on out writers kept doing this shit over and over in Elseworlds. Then the cartoons came and finally it was Batman time to reject her.
I know that byrne did a superman and wonder woman go on a date and then superman didn't wanted nothing with wonder woman. And they some writer keep using it for future stories
I don't know about Wolfman and Jimenez stories. Jimenez was the first post crises writer to introduce a love interest for WW instead of her pining for superman.
I know that Joe Kelly did a story that superman and WW were on asgaard for 1000 years and then she wanted to sleep with him and he recused because he was hopeful that he would go back to lois. he was right and returned home to Lois.
I think that waid just make thing worse with kingdom come ;(
It's unfortunate that wonder woman on so many elseworlds is used as consolation prize.
>>81644813
I think i confused Jimenez then. There was another writer other than Wolfman that explored the Wonder Woman + Superman thing in her comics after Wolfman's run. But yeah Joe Kelly didn't helped either.
>>81644813
>>81644898
It was John Byrne. John Byrne did the Wonder Woman/Superman thing in Wonder Woman comics again. Just remembered.
>>81644939
>It was John Byrne. John Byrne did the Wonder Woman/Superman thing in Wonder Woman comics again. Just remembered.
Also Eric Luke, no wonder WW just recovered with Rucka writing the book. I don't know why writers insisted so much on it with superman dating Lois and getting married later.
>>81644607
The new good guys didn't have the guiding hand or sense of responsibility that their predecessors had.
Superman is essential in post-COIE Earth because he was the 1st public superhero since the mid-20th century. Before him, there were crime-fighters and mystery men. Superman was a guy with legit powers and most importantly, he was the example. Here was a handsome and powerful guy who saved the day all the time. He was an alien yet Earth was his home. He gave superheroes a lot of good press which allowed for Flash, WW, GL, and others to be accepted.
When Superman retired and his contemporaries either retreated to their own affairs or whatnot, the new gen looked toward Magog. It's what the people wanted. And power is a lot like alcohol; it can succumb even the strongest-willed individual into depravity and self-destruction without being careful.
>>81645116
THAT'S THE GUY! I knew there was someone other than Wolfman and Byrne that did this shit.
And yeah. Wolfman fucked up first by making Steve old and then later setting him up with Etta. Not that Steve is a great character but that created a vacuum. Then came the Superman thing that kept being referenced every now and then despite Superman being in love and later married to Lois. So Wonder Woman just came off as really desperate.
Because of all of that the damage was done. Wonder Woman started to being portrayed as the psychotic harpy that couldn't wait for Lois to die to hop on Superman's dick and convince him to take over the world.
>>81645259
>When Superman retired and his contemporaries either retreated to their own affairs or whatnot, the new gen looked toward Magog. It's what the people wanted. And power is a lot like alcohol; it can succumb even the strongest-willed individual into depravity and self-destruction without being careful.
The problem is that things kept pilling up and escalating and Superman was still there. He wasn't in space or inside the Phantom Zone. He was there Earth doing nothing. Just watching the world born from his farm. That's fucked up. The fact that the other heroes didn't do anything too is never explored which is double fucked up.
>>81645259
Dude, I get it. That is the premise.
The fact remains Superman and Batman's teams are crazy assholes who got more people killed and did worse shit than the "edgy" guys did, and yet they are the "heroes" of the story.
>>81645400
The fact that the entire DC umiverse of heroes basically fucked off because Superman quit is such an insulting idea It's sickening.
>>81645497
Then Wonder Woman shows up in his farm begging him to act and kill some niggas.
Yeah, KC is shit.
>>81645400
I agree, but chalk it up to Superman just being fed up and his colleagues not matching up to him. WW had to deal with her role as the Amazons' representative to man's world, the Flash focused solely on making his city safe, Batman has his own list of problems, etc. They just don't have the iconic symbolism and PR that Superman had. Or felt they couldn't do it.
The thing about comics is that it's mythology. Their ideals that we like to see, but what I liked about KC is that it actually shows the heroes dealing with the shit after the big fight or saving the day. And doing this 24/7 for years and years. Will the conflict ever end? Have I made a difference? What am I doing this all for?
Even a Superman can be weary of the world and burdening that load of bricks after losing Lois and his coworkers. Magog getting off was the final straw. He was fed-up and didn't want to fight anymore.
And what's worse is that Magog and his Justice Battalion annihilated Kansas with radiation. His hometown was irrevocably taken away. Shit just kept piling up.
Plus I think Superman just watched in the Fortress because he's still beholden to society. He can't change society's views because that's not what he does. Only after WW opening his eyes to what happened, he finally decided that he can at least change the new gen of heroes and then maybe, society will realize its error.
>Waid admits Kingdom Come was a bad comic
>Jay Z admits Kingdom Come was a bad album
POETRY
>>81645542
Superman fucking thinks "maybe all superhumans deserve to die" what the fuck?
And then goes and tries to murdur the whole UN for self defense, RIGHT AFTER HE SAYS THAT SHIT.
KC Supes is a whiny, passive agressive, judgmental,hypocritical psychopath that really needs to be put down before he goes full Injustice, even though he is halfway there.
>>81645725
Really reaching bro.
>>81645958
Like I said before, KC is far from perfect. I initially disliked the story when I first read it for all the reasons in this thread. But over the years, I recognized what it was trying to convey. It helped that I read those JSA issues where KC Superman comes to their Earth and how he relates to everything that happened to him and how he is now.
I appreciate the effort and direction it did despite its errors. I have more tolerance for this than some of the shit that's been churned out like Identity Crisis.
>>81646085
KC sucks because it holds up horroble horrible and out of character acts as noble because of the writers personal biases.
It's Triumph of the Will tier, obviously not in scale, but in structure.
>>81635945
>Samefagging instead of capping it on your own
>>81641844
>Waid is one of the biggest hacks in comics.
This, even today.
>>81645830
Who the fuck cares about what SJWaid or that nigga has to say, if you hate the comic fine but stop using the "It's bad because SJWaid hated it!" line, we can tell you are samefagging
>>81641439
Hell, Magog accepted the charges against him and was ready to be judged by his crimes. The man at least accepted the responsability of his acts, unlike sups
>>81647071
What?
>>81650499
Twice,even!
>>81626574
But OP they were all portrayed as wrong
>>81638137
Even if he had killed the Mutant, it would not have been murder.
why didn't Flash know about the fucking bombs
>>81634522
It's not a fucking meme you spaz.
>>81630786
>as she is in all elseworlds is both a fascist and wants to fuck Superman
Holy shit, this. This bothered me for so long, superfags have no idea how to write WW and throw a hissy fit about TDKR even decades later.
>>81644218
You're implying that OP isn't samefagging like a boss.I'm sure there's maybe one or two other people samefagging in this thread, because /co/ turns to shit over the weekend.
>>81630528
Stop that.
>>81647071
>>81660984
Not even OP,but claiming that he is samefagging is not actually putting down any of his points.
>>81626574
>Kingdom Come supes was the most evil crazy dickish supes in any story were he wasnt out and out evil.
Had you not included Injustice, I would have actually agreed with you. But anyway, except for that, I will agree with you: Supes in Kingdom Come is acting dickish and crazy, for a certain value of that.
And yet I can't think of a single person that he kills in the entire thing. He just build a gulag and puts people in it trying to reform them, and while that does take away their free will and also they're going there without a trial, there is absolutely no indication that they're being mistreated beyond that. In fact they seem to have basically free rein in the gulag itself.
Says something about Superman as a person, doesn't it?
>he is portrayed as in the right
What? No he isn't.
>>81661394
Repeating your own claims (which involve ignoring key points in the story, or just claiming they "don't matter") to pretend it's not just you is classic trolling.
>>81641439
>He didn't quite because of the court case, but because he was afraid that Magog had become the man of tomorrow
Yeah so he's a pussy
>>81661554
I could claim the same thing about you and all people defending KC, tho.
>>81630822
>>81630786
How can a human read a book, yet so completely miss the point?
>>81661505
>and while that does take away their free will and also they're going there without a trial
Aren't most of these guys most likely just escaped criminals? The bulk of them seem to be full-time supervillains or destructive vigilantes at best.
Superman retired because the world just became too edgy for him to exist in.
The court of public opinion was all for a "superman" who just shoved his fist through villains chest cavities.
>>81661706
Given that there are pro-KC posts that have been posted seconds apart, that theory falls flat
>>81661778
My point is that >samefagging
is not an argument. Post an argument for fuck's sake. Also samefagging on multiple computers is a thing, you know.
>>81661738
They still, properly speaking, should have gotten a trial.
>>81661778
Also, you just made me go back and check and no, there actually isn't. Those were the only 2 posts posted seconds apart.You fucking liar.
>>81662154
So, you ARE samefagging? You're not denying it, and you seem to like pretending that any criticism of your viewpoint doesn't count, because you say so.
>>81662323
>>81662323
And here
>>81662323
And here. Was to lazy to crop them together, but my point is clear.
>>81662323
The reason why I was not saying 'OP is not samefagging' is because my point isthat claiming somebody is samefagging in the first place is fucking retarded.
>>81626574
It's times like this I wish I bothered to save those "this is bait" images
>>81662453
But yes, before you go
>oh, now you samefagging bro
Yes those >>81662384
>>81662404
>>81662428
>>81662453
Are all me, but not because I'm samefagging, but because there are a shit ton of things I can say about the trash you just posted and the more I wait, the more I can think of.
>>81662384
>>81662404
>>81662428
Okay, so there ARE two, maybe three of you making the same retarded argument over and over, then pretending that anyone calling you out on your shallow reading of the story is "proving" you right. People have tried engaging with you idiots, but you just go blithely on, repeating your argument instead of explaining it.
>>81662453
>claiming somebody is samefagging in the first place is fucking retarded
Because...?
>>81662484
Let me help you out.
This one sums me up quite nicely, I suppose.
>>81662526
Woops, meant to link >>81662323
At the top there. And because it may be unclear from my post, I am not OP, tho.
And I think I'll stop there.
>2010 /co/ likes Waid and KC
>2016 /co/ thinks Waid is a hack and KC sucks
I seriously hope you guys don't actually listen to people on here.
>>81635304
Same thing happens in that Elseworlds where Superman is the only person left on Earth, until he finds a few other depowered metas and Billy is evil for some reason.
>>81662788
nope. just 1 or 2 retards samefagging. Probably op.
>>81644162
>>81644482
this is why superman as written today is garbage.
Superman is Human like anyone else on an emotional level. if you think that it was wrong to quit over that, then yeah, that's true. he did it out of grief. America had decided that being edgy and cool was better and Superman's morals and codes of conduct could go fuck right off. After all, magog just killed the fucking Joker! About time! right?
so Supes, already reeling from lois having died in that incident, seeing Magog get off scott free for committing murder, and the people supporting him.
that hurt supes, so he quit, because clearly he wasn't wanted anymore. people had their shiny new model. one that wasn't afraid to kill to get the job done.
the comic doesn't exactly try to position his quitting as the right thing to do, only that its what happened. it makes it clear that if he wanted to prevent magog and others like him, he should have stayed and pushed harder for his and his contemporaries vision instead of just letting violent vigilantes get free roam.
>there are people who think SJWaid's shitty whiny strawman comic is actually good
The only """good"""about it is the artwork. And only twelve-year olds think Alrx Ross is good.
>>81635856
This. If you never actually experienced it then you only get the good parts.
>>81626574
I always preferred Kurt Busiek's Marvels
Superman has every right to quit if he wants to. I don't want to hear about power and responsibility because everyone has the power to become police officers and save people but not everyone does it. Superman just felt like I've been doing this for 20 years and this is what they want fuck em. He has every right to walk away. I'm pretty sure he wasn't watching how bad the world got because he knew nothing about Kansas until Wonder Woman showed him. He was just focusing on what he wanted and if anyone has the right to retire he does. All the other heroes that quit after him have every right to. Just because you have amazing powers doesn't mean you have to use them to save people or you're a villain. I had the same problem with marvel after civil war. Was it against the law to not join the government of you had powers. What if you didn't want to put your life on the line or just didn't give a fuck? Does it make you a bad guy because you don't feel like the whole worlds on your shoulders? What if the heroes were like alright you have other heroes now if I see something happening I'll help but I'm not actively searching out trouble anymore. If you don't agree shouldn't you be driving around looking for any situation that you can help out in or is it more like ahh I donated at the office I'm going to watch some tv?
>>81661505
>>81663396
If anything its been a bunch of samefagfags.
I am OP and forgot about the thread I made last night. Then I see it in tje catalog after being bumoed by 50 posts of people shitposting samefag and bait memes
>>81666579
Got to bed martha
>>81626887
That isn't quite what happened. It wasn't just that Magog was popular. He outright murdered the Joker when he was in custody, and was later acquitted of all charges to much fanfare.
>>81644813
>I know that byrne did a superman and wonder woman go on a date and then superman didn't wanted nothing with wonder woman.
>>81644939
>It was John Byrne. John Byrne did the Wonder Woman/Superman thing in Wonder Woman comics again. Just remembered.
It's funny cause Byrne absolutely despises the idea of Superman and Wonder Woman hooking up (and probably regrets doing that comic)
>>81666958
Superman threw a goodamn passive agreesive hissy fit like a fucking fame obsessed pop star upset over the new hotness and let untold millions of people die because he was acting like a total bitch.
