Why does he hate Superman?
I'd argue he really loves the character. it's just this insistent attitude from the idiots in the fanbase that supes be boyscout hopefull at all times and never experience conflict or doubt that seems to conflict with the idea that he dislikes the character.
>>81319681
Because the man seriously believes superheroes should kill and see them in a superficial way. You should check his interview of his influences, he likes Excalibur just because of the violence of anot for the other things that made the movie good.
In the end what he wants to see his action, reason why he changed the ending of MoS from zod getting trap in the phantom zone to neck snapping
>>81319866
And not*
Is*
Because he's an insecure little man, like all people who hate Superman.
>>81319681
I don't think he doesn't, he just put him on realistic setting and is not giving him any easy way outs.
Hey guys did you ever think to consider that Superman is like Jesus?
>muh realism
>>81320044
Don't you mean Moses, Zach? You know, because of the whole chosen son sent down the metaphorical river to be raised by plebeian parents thing?
>>81319681
Because he is an agent of Darkseid. He is spreading Anti-Life. Or he's an objectivist. Same thing.
>>81319681
He doesn't hate.
He just doesn't understand.
>>81319681
Ayn Rand
>>81319681
Because he's an adept of Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy, a douctrine that stands on the following:
>Reality
(hence all the deaths at the end of Man of Steel)
>Reason
(hence the justification of every little thing)
>Self-Interested (which basically means "DONT BE AN ALTRUIST" and "SOCIETY FUCKS UP SPECIAL PEOPLE TO BENEFIT ITSELF)
therefore Snyder's Superman is a selfish prick just like Ma and Pa Kent and the 30 second scenes of him saving shit in BvS are joyless as fuck).
He doesn't hate Superman, he is just a person who literally does not believe in altruis m - and therefore should be kept the fuck away from superheroes
>>81320538
Honestly, I think he likes him and on some level understands him. Zack is jsut a guy who can't get his ideas across in a way that anyone understands. Look at Sucker Punch. He was really trying there. He had some interesting ideas. And, like always, he mucked it all up and no one got it. He's just incompetent.
>>81320538
People hate what they don't understandSnyder taught me that
>>81319754
>the movie is too deep for you!
Yawn, go back to /tv/.
>>81319681
is that doctor house?
>>81319681
The same reason everyone else does. He's boring and overpowered. As well as being a Jesus expy and a moralfag.
Being told you have to write/draw/direct/program something based around that character must feel like the worst fucking task in the world. How do you get motivated to create something concerning the original Mary Sue?
>Superman doesn't like taking a life after killing Zod
>kills Doomsday without hesitation
When will the killing stop?
>>81320232
Don't you mean Jesus, Anon? You know, because of the whole chosen son born from heretical conception to be raised by plebeian parents thing?
>>81321093
Zach that don't make no sense. Do you mean to imply that Jor-El is God? Aren't the rest of the kryptonians the ones doing the immaculate conception? This metaphor is getting kinda muddy.
>>81320731
Incompetency is the worst desu.
Like when you go out to a restaurant and they've hired a disabled dude as a waiter and you don't say anything and give them a chance because it would be wrong to judge so soon but then they wind up slipping and dropping your order all over you.
You can't really be mad, it's not his fault, he's just retarded. You just really hope that he isn't your waiter the next time.
>>81319681
>Why does he hate Superman?
Because Superman didn't save him from his abusive daddy.
>>81320984
>doesn't like taking lives
>literally the first thing he does in this movie is kill a dude
Riiiiiight.
>>81319681
He feels threatened by a godlike figure that isn't god
>>81320717
this. If there's any lessons to be found in BvS it's that no matter what you do, acts of heroism will inevitably have dire consequences and that you would be better off not saving people at all.
Martha's speech to Superman is pure Rand: be whatever you want to be Clark, but you don't owe anyone else anything.
>>81319681
Synder imagines superman as a god, which isn't an unpopular opinion.
The problem is that he imagines him as a god after the classical mold of old polytheistic deities, with all the brutality, unrepentant destruction, fixation on worship, and cold distance from humanity that entails.
Unfortunately most people view Superman as a modern, deeply humanist god who is defined above all else by his love for his followers and his rejection of his quasi-divine unique status.
because Snyder views superman like he does he fundamentally cannot tap into what most people love about the character.
>>81321638
you say that like its a good thing, anon
there's a Rand hero in Superman mythos alright - a rational, selfish, capitalist who despises people with power they didnt earn - and that person is fuckin Lex Luthor. Which, btw, in BvS is changed because god forbids a Randian hero becomes a villain in a Snyder movie.
Superman is LITERALLY the opposite of Randian shit, it's terrible to pervert him in such a way, but even if youre determined to do it, you can only do so much. The result is a joyless, disconnected, useless murderer Superman.
hate =/= not fully grasping the character
>>81320717
Yep. Superman is better than the little people and he should not help them because altruism always fails.
Superman's ideals are very anti-Rand, which is why Zack bends Supes to fit objectivist ideals.
>>81319754
Keep on spouting that meme. It'll catch on.
>>81319681
Here is a really good article on the subject.
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/30/11329886/batman-v-superman-bad-review-zack-snyder
>In both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, Snyder's intention is to inspire awe, but he fails to offer up anything that would capture the emotions he must have felt reading comics long ago. He forgets that even superhero comics have moments of levity or sorrow or something else in between their masculine brooding and their even-more-masculine punching.
>Zack Snyder knows what something with depth looks like, but he's too distracted by shiny exteriors to find the messy humanity inside. And the more he picks up beloved characters to play with, the more their fandom will revolt.
>>81321782
This is really a core with Snyder.
It feels like he tries to force the same type of todeep4u symbolism shit in every movie he makes even if it doesn't fit.
That's how we get messes like BvS with the shittiest Superman we've ever had.
He's going to pull the same crap with JL, I don't know how many idiot could possibly be excited for that.
>>81319681
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axuf9Pb-36I
>>81319681
What really frustrates me is that there are parts I really enjoy.
Like at the end of MoS.
The conversation with the general where he downs the drone and the general says "That was a multimillion dollar piece of equipment" And he responds, "It was." Was a great bit that reminds me of slightly mischievous 30s Superman or Morrisons's New 52. And then he makes his case and finishes of with a smile. "I don't know general, I guess I'll just have to trust you." Lovely.
The final exchange with Lois in MoS. "Welcome to the Planet." Was an adorable line and that smile at the end was so Superman.
I was really hoping that Clark would be the Superman he needs to be in the next movie but no such luck.
>>81320967
Then don't take the job instead of wasting everyone's time and money.
>>81321837
yeah, that's what I'm saying, thanks anon
>>81321945
the forced, obvious symbolism is a problem, and also the lack of levity. The real problem in my opinion it the fact that neither Superman or Batman are heroes in this fucking movie.
People tend to forget that TDKR wasnt supposed to define the character, it was supposed to be the extreme version of Batman. Having Batman be a borderline schyzo and an outright murder makes him stop being a hero.
Also, Superman not only joylessly saves people from natural disasters and kills a lot of people because he doesnt give a fuck, but he ACTIVELY has a problem with Batman fighting crime.
Again:
Not only Superman will NOT fight crime (and kill people and blah blah blah), he will STOP PEOPLE FROM FIGHTING CRIME
>>81321263
Where does the birthing monkey skull fit in all this?
FUCKING BAT FAGGOTRY!!! That's hy and I hate it because I love Batman but Superman should be the heart of DC not this emotionless abomination we were given. Children are going to grow up with this terrifying version of Superman and it just breaks my heart
>>81322066
Oh and I loved the weirdness of Krypton too. That shit was great.
So where does Snyder being a Christian Scientist fit in all this armchair psychoanalysis?
I have no clue what those people believe.
>>81321782
>>81321945
Perhaps I was not clear, of course this is a bad thing. Objectivism has no place near Superman, or any moral, logical being for that matter. If Superman had a single guiding principle it would be something more like the golden rule (do unto others etc).
Man of Steel and BvS is Snyder trying to bring down Supes into a level where he can understand him, and explain why under Snyder's world view someone would want to help people.
Because Snyder is a randian objectivist idiot and Superman is the living embodiment of altruism.
>>81321908
>he fails to offer up anything that would capture the emotions he must have felt reading comics long ago. He forgets that even superhero comics have moments of levity or sorrow or something else in between their masculine brooding and their even-more-masculine punching.
But Zack Snyder is not a comics fan, that's been established by himself.
>>81321945
Snyder's entire lexicon relies on the Courtier's Reply fallacy. Whenever you say it sucks, it's defenders just scream IT'S TOO DEEP AND SMART FOR YOU PLEB. And Snyder fucking encourages it. It's gross.
>>81319681
He doesn't HATE him. He just doesn't understand.
>>81322216
I think Snyder is a fan, but he's the worst kind of casual fan. He's the kind of fan that favorites and reblogs single out of context pages on his blog, and thinks that gives him an intimate knowledge of the characters and their history.
Which is why he thinks its a great idea to combine a dozen different stories at once. He hasn't actually read or comprehended any of them. but they all have at least one page that's iconic.
>>81320717
pretty much this. Superman's the last person he should be telling stories about.
>>81320538
>>81322294
Justdoesn'tunderstandmind.
>>81322066
Superman was actually happier in MoS than he was in BvS. Remember the interrogation room with Lois? he was smiling the entire time or when he first learned how to fly? We got nothing like that in BvS.
MoS actually had plenty of "Superman" moments but just saving people is not enough.
>>81320717
Americans superheroes abandoned altruistic principles decades ago in favor of pushing agendas. Snyder just goes with the current trends.
>>81322066
Clark being cutsey with Lois was as happy as it got for him. The rest of the time people were trying to fame him, murder him or murder his mom or lois. Pretty crazzy
>>81322316
https://youtu.be/UD3byJxc9Vc
>>81322892
his voice is so grating
>>81321945
You do know that Zack Snyder didn't write Batman v Superman, right?
>>81323029
He's the director. Everything in the movie runs through him.
>>81323029
apparently he didn't bother to edit it either
>>81323134
Except the script, which was written by David Goyer and Chris Terrio. Or do you think that because he's the director that means he wrote the script too?
>>81323185
The claim was made that he at the very least inserted pretentious dialogue or similar into the script. No evidence has been provided for this claim. In fact, the script was written by David Goyer and Chris Terrio, you simpletons.
I get the feeling he 'hates' the character because he believes out of all superheros, Superman is the least real. He believes nobody would consistently try to do the best for others, without some sorta drugs being involved or other handicapped judgement. So naturally he portrays Superman as flawed and not just unABLE to live up to the comic book standards, but a character who doesnt even TRY to live up to those standards.
Does it make the character seem more human? Sure. I guess. If you are the most cynical fucker alive, you too might find it foreign to see humans helping other humans.
tl;dr Snyder chaffs at dealing with a character as "unrealistic" in behavior as Superman.
>>81323283
I read the treatment Goyer wrote, and I'd say 75% of it was thrown out in the final movie. If you seriously think that Terrio wrote the rest himself and don't think for a second it was a committee effort with him, the Snyder's and WB corporate brass than you have no clue about how this shit works.
>>81323361
So what specific lines of dialogue did Zack Snyder write? In addition to your answer, I'd like you to provide a reliable source that backs up your claim.
>>81323361
NO U!
He hates DC. Only someone who hates all comics with every inch of his being could've made this movie.
>>81323399
Not him but that's pretty much impossible to know, those aren't the type of information that studios reveal.
>>81323433
So then the argument is "X is bad because I think it did Y", and one should just be content knowing that there's no way to know X did, in fact, do Y? Aside from gut feelings, we should just accept it?
Like, all things considered, that's a very retarded way to argue with someone.
>>81323399
script =/= story.
Snyder is the executive producer in all of DC's movies after Man of Steel, in charge of making everything follow the same vision - his. The fact that he didnt write the script does not mean the vision, story, structure and characterization of the movie isnt his.
>>81322367
>Superman was actually happier in MoS than he was in BvS. Remember the interrogation room with Lois? he was smiling the entire time or when he first learned how to fly? We got nothing like that in BvS.
That's because if he helped people (IE THE PLANET) everyone was pissed. If he did nothing they were pissed.
It's frustrating to be in that position.
>>81323468
Director has veto power on dialogue.
>>81323483
>script =/= story.
Holy shit this. A thousand times this.
Just because someone isn't credited as a writer doesn't mean they stop influencing the story.
>>81323523
So? Superman helps no matter what the public opinion is and he does it with a smile. This isn't the first time "Everybody hates Superman" has been done but it's sure as fuck the worst
>>81323547
this can be perceived very well in BvS. That fucking script plays like it was pulled in a thousand different directions during shootings
>>81319681
I don't think he hates superman. I just think he doesn't give a shit about the character.
He doesn't want to make a movie about superman. He wants to make a movie about a guy who has supermans powers.
And it blows my mind people honestly believe that the superman we've seen in these films is superman. There are a few moments in man of steel I recall seeming almost like superman. The one that really comes to mind is when he turns himself in to the military. That was a cool superman moment. He trusts in them, and doesn't make the choice for them. The conversation with lois while hes handcuffed is cool too.
"you let them handcuff you"
"wouldn't be much of a surrender if i didnt. And if it makes them feel more secure"
That...that is this one glimmer of superman. He gives a shit about how other people feel. It means something to him that he isn't this looming thing that can break them to pieces (assuming he shows mercy and chooses to 'bring them in without breaking them').
And no superman doesn't have to be dick donner superman. That isn't what people want. He can be angry. Noone is saying he shouldn't be. But superman isn't a fucking mopey mess, shlubbing around and threatening people all the time.
Superman wants to help. Help his friends, help strangers, help everyone. Even if he doesn't agree with those people.
the fucking idea that people honestly think that superman would (because he has an ideological disagreement with someone) stand in the fucking road and let a guy crash a car into him knowing full well with his invulnerability that person could be crushed, only so he can rip the roof off that car and browbeat that person into going away because superman has deemed their particular method of crimefighting unfit for existence....it blows my fucking mind.
That people can look at that and go 'i dont get the big deal. This is superman, thats superman right there'
I'm not saying hate the movie. I don't give a fuck. But that aint superman.
>>81323399
It doesn't matter if he didnt write a single word in the script. If it was bad he has the call on if it gets changed.
>>81323483
And who is credited with the story? Chris Terrio and David Goyer. No one else. No one else received a story credit. Terrio and Goyer received a "written by" credit, which includes the story also, unlike a "screenplay by" credit which does not.
>>81323568
I hate to use it in an argument but this falls on >NOT MUCH SOUP
I literally became a pilot because I wanted to fly like SOUP. This isn't the best version possible but I accept and enjoy it. I wish they built it up more or went a different direction before doing what they did in BvS
>>81323545
So that means he wrote pretentious dialogue?
>>81323627
This guy gets it.
>>81323547
Unfortunately for you and the other simpletons, it doesn't mean they made the story pretentious either.
It feels like Snyder can't understand how altruistic people work.
So he wrote a movie about how he, a Randian, thinks altruistic people work.
That's like getting a goth to write a story where a frat guy is the protagonist. It's such an alien viewpoint that the author has to rely on stereotypes about that character just to understand him.
>>81323672
No. No it fucking isn't. This isn't Superman mate. It's a guy who has Supermans powers but none of his charm
>>81323689
No it means if he thought the dialogue was bad or pretentious he could have asked for a rewrite,
>>81323649
It does, because the claim wasn't that he passively allowed it, but that he actively created it.
>>81323728
Pretty much this. The guy in the movie is a super man, but he's not Superman.
>>81323651
If you hire me to cook for a dinner party. And when i bring out a plate of (lets say) lobster thermidor. And everyone hates it. It tastes like absolute shit its garbage. And you come to complain to me. You say 'this dinner was awful what am i paying you for. you served me a terrible meal'
And my reply is. 'its not my fault. The lobster was rotten when i got it out of the package. It wasn't fresh lobster. It isn't my fault it is the supermarket i purchased the lobster from'
Would you be fine with that? would you not think 'well fuck that, get better fucking lobster before you cook the garbage up and serve it to me. ask for a refund you have a job to do and if one element of your job is fucked up you dont just shrug and make shit with it because you didn't wanna bother'?
Because when people say 'it's the writers fault' that is what it sounds like.
>>81323731
You seem to have forgotten what the argument was about.
>>81323627
Holy shit this post is so right.
>>81323627
yeah, that's fucking it, man.
I feel like the "Superman is boring" mythos got way out of hand so they decided to make him "a badass". It just sucks that they forgot the best fucking part about the character - which so happens to make him different than every other superhero in the movies right now, except maybe for Captain America - that he's just a good fucking guy. Naive, almost.. He can help and logic tells him to help. So he fucking helps.
>>81323749
That's not what the argument is about. I never said that Zack Snyder wasn't a bad director.
>>81323821
What's particularly interesting about a character that's naive? It seems pretty shallow, the way you describe him. That he's naive and he helps people. Fascinating.
>>81319681
I dont think it's hate as much as it's him being so far up his own ass he could climb out his own nose. Just like JJ Abrams. Artsy fartsy hipsters. They want to be contrarian to pop culture norm because it puts them above the masses
>>81323753
You seem to be confusing me with someone else, I never argued what you're arguing against, just pointed out a couple of things.
Whether Snyder wrote the shitty script and dialogue himself is a bit irrelevant, there's a reason nobody is trying to argue with you on that.
>>81323905
What so fascinating about. I feel guilty so I'll help people?
>>81323821
I'm amazed they haven't fucked up Cap yet, honestly.
>>81319681
I don't think he hate Supes, he just want to try somrething new but everyone happen to hate it, that's all
>>81323835
ah disregard then.
>>81323905
Just the basic concept of a pure hearted guy in an ocean of cinic assholes, yeah. That's why the character is good. He can have problems and conflicts and still be that.
>>81323946
I feel like Marvel/Disney actually care about Cap as a character and what he represents. It's not the usual narrative about Marvel these days, but I think they actually LIKE Cap and his old-fashioned values.
By contrast, WB/DC almost seem embarrassed by Superman. I feel like it's not just Snyder, Warner itself doesn't like him much.
>>81323735
>the claim wasn't that he passively allowed it, but that he actively created it.
Whose claim? Yours?
That's not what this post >>81321945 claims. Symbolism doesn't mean dialogue you ignoramus.
>>81319754
He's been depressed and upset plenty of times in the comics.
But that's the only real emotional note Snyder wants him to hit. He's always so sullen and mopey. There are next to no peaks or valleys in Superman. Supes being depressed about something would carry more weight if we got to see him happy in more than just the tub scene.
>>81319681
I just saw the movie.
He doesn't hate superman, he just doesn't understand anything about any of these characters, and neither does goyer.
They both need to be taken off DC projects.
>>81323821
Yeah, Superman likes helping people because he likes people. It makes him happy to see everyone happy.
Superman in BvS looked depressed every time he saved people. Like he was pissed off by those people's crisis. He didn't like people. Even Martha Kent tells him to reject humanity. Clark Kent has no friends and no joy in his work.
God, BvS was so fucking CYNICAL. I want to cry a little.
>>81323998
It can be dialogue. But I was just asking for a specific example of something. If you have some non-dialogue form of symbolism which Zack Snyder wrote into the script, feel free to mention that along with a reliable source.
Most people hate Superman. They can't write him properly because they have an idea about him that's just not right. That cartoon movie with the Elites, that one got him right. He can do anything and he chooses the hard path of doing things the right way and only steps in when he needs to so that people don't rely on him to wipe their asses. He's not worries about being popular, he's confident in what he does and that's all he needs.
>>81323821
>Naive, almost.
>>81323905
>What's particularly interesting about a character that's naive?
The fact that people conflate naivety with altruism is really sad.
>>81324042
>>81324006
>>81323971
>>81323905
That's actually the premise of Superman 2. He feels he's not good enough, that he's doing bad, and that he needs a life of his own besides being that guy. That's conflict right there, and never in that movie he stops being good guy Superman.
>>81324097
I don't mean that. The "naive" i was reffering to relates to him being a farmer from Kansas.
>>81324006
Thats what i honestly fucking hate so much about these movies.
We get one grim movie about him coming into his own. Okay i wasn't so hot on alot about that movie....but hey you know what it was superman with growing pains.
But then the next one is even fucking grimmer. And its not even all about superman. Its like three different stories jammed together into this fucking mess they created to prepare us for Justice league without having to do a separate batman film so soon after the last one.
What bums me out is I like Superman. I really like that character. And I would have loved to see superman doing superman shit having come into his own in a movie. BvS was not that.
BvS was a superman figuring out the super hero game while the world still reels at what he represents and as a result hes all fucking sad the whole goddamn movie.
And thats it. We aren't gonna get another fucking Superman movie. He'll appear in justice league but those will be like avengers...all about plot and situation and teamwork rather than focusing on any particular character. Which is cool for them cos thats what team comics do as well and I'm okay with that.
But man...it would have been so nice to get a superman movie where he is the superman we know, accepted by the human race and defending them from danger. Lifting them up and inspiring and yeah sometimes punching the fuck out of some bad guy.
I guess at this point I can only hope Shazam is well done. I don't have much faith it'll even come out at this point but man I really hope it's well done.
>>81324077
And as I told you that's not the type of info studios divulge. You can go full agnostic about it and go "well if we don't know who did what exactly, then obviously we can't blame anyone", it's sort of rational, but it's a lot more fun to speculate and assign blame according to what we know of these people and their previous works.
Besides considering Snyder has the highest spot on the creative hierarchy, again, it's a bit irrelevant, he gets all the blame regardless of who shoved what.
>>81324125
I like Billy Batson.
A Captain Marvel movie could have a lot of potential.
bc his dad beat him as a kid and he wanted supes to save him
>>81319939
I'm insecure and little and I love Superman
>>81324182
Oh god
Just imagine how Snyder will portray Shazam
At least other Superman movies exist so people have some sort of idea of what supes should normally be like but I don't know if Billy can handle that kind of abuse.
>>81320785
Don't forget to thank Snyder for his teachings, fellow pupil.
>>81319681
Because Superman is a mary sue
>>81324440
Is synder in charge of that film?
>>81323987
DC isn't embarrassed by Superman even in the recent arc when he was depowered he was still about hope and helping people. WB sure as fuck is though
>>81324099
>and never in that movie he stops being good guy Superman.
He actually stops being Superman altogether for awhile.
The better question is why do marvel fans like superman more than dc fans, enough to want a better depiction of him while dc fans defend BvS
>>81322140
To be fair, those children already hated Superman before BvS and MoS
>>81324507
Children don't hate Superman. Teenagers hate Superman
>>81324501
That's some nice mental gymnastics you have going there that you think it's Marvel fans that are the most pissed off just because you saw a few faggots saying they enjoyed it
>>81324538
Everybody hates Superman, except for some nostalgic baby boomers and a bunch of basement dwellers.
>>81324556
who enjoyed it
>>81324578
No they don't. If everybody hates Superman how did Smallville last 10 seasons and MoS make 700 million despite being shit?
>>81324578
>Everybody hates Superman, except for some nostalgic baby boomers and a bunch of basement dwellers.
Teenager detected.
http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2016/03/11/inside-chris-terrios-vision-for-batman-superman-and-justice-league/
>>81324479
Well he has creative control over the whole DCCU and I think he's the producer on everything.
Plus his first appearance will probably be in JL the way WB is doing things so we'll have Snyder to introduce Billy to the common public.
I honestly can't see any possible way Snyder could introduce Billy without completely butchering him into some hamfisted religious symbol.
>>81324556
I think this logic stems from the fact that the people who like this movie assume everyone who hates on it must just be a marvel fan who hates it because its DC. Rather than the more likely DC fan who hates it because it fucks up DC stuff.
>>81324501
Because DC fans are more mature and like adult stuff like Batman and Suicide Squad whereas Marvel fans are kids who like Superman "because he's the bestest and most nicest" and giggle at the immature humor of Deadpool.
>>81324612
>If everybody hates Superman how did Smallville last 10 seasons
Clark was a Peter Parker wannabe, the setting was closer to X-Men and he refused to use the suit until literally the last second.
>and MoS make 700 million despite being shit?
Superman is still the most recognizable cape hero. The studios know recognition >>>>>> originality, that's why they don't want new ideas but rehashing old ones. Besides, quality =/= success.
>>81323627
Capping for future generations.
>>81324691
>Rather than the more likely DC fan who hates it because it fucks up DC stuff.
This is me. And it tears me up because I wanted this to be good.
DC seriously needs to have somebody on the comic side of things the way Marvel has Kevin Feige to run QC on this stuff. John's is supposedly that guy but it's clear he has no real pull on the finished product based on this movie.
>>81324578
Landis, leave.
>>81324710
>more mature and like adult stuff like Batman
Hes a super rich boy who runs around in a bat costume and punches crazy people and has a little boy sidekick and broods a lot.
yeah hes real mature. like reading fucking william blake over here.
>>81324767
Landis probably likes Superman more than Snyder
>>81324788
Id say a great deal more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw_GlYve_Lg
>>81324710
>>81319681
I felt Superman acted properly as he should when he's mopey and he threatened when he normally would. The problem with the movie is that he was mopey ALL THE FUCKING TIME, and he threatened people way too much. There wasn't nearly enough happy Superman to give the mopey Superman any weight. We get a brief glimpse of him being happy when he's in the tub and a little at the end when hesacrifices himself.
In short. I feel this Superman was in character, it's just that they used the sad/angry part of his character way too much
>>81324844
>not and (You) are the sun
>>81319681
He doesn't hate the character, he just likes him for the wrong reasons. He likes Superman because Superman is the "Big Gun." Synder probably thinks Clark Kent is a fag.
>>81324788
>>81324839
I'm glad Max Landis exists.
He's so fucking weird in every way but he says good shit most of the time, and because he's in the industry he can get his points of view heard.
>>81319681
He doesn't hate Superman, he loves Superman.He hates you.
>>81324099
That's USUALLY something you can do in a sequel. It's just that Snyder never gave us a classic superman to BE jaded. He goes from fuckup to "fuck this shit" with nothing in between character wise.
>>81324501
I don't think it's a console wars thing. I think there are plenty of DC fans pissed at how Superman is being treated in this universe. Being a DC fan does NOT and will never mean you have to also be a Snyderfan.
Having said that, and working purely within the confines of your question? It's because Marvel doesn't HAVE a Superman. They have Captain America, who has the moral core and the personality. They have Spider-man, who has the emotional rage. They have Sentry, who has the powers. But there's no full package flying brick paragon.
Closest to it is maybe Thor, and because of all the norse god stuff it still feels different enough to not count.
>>81324624
Putting everything else aside every time I look at a picture of Terrio I can't help but picture him as the Riddler.
>>81325602
>But there's no full package flying brick paragon.
I think blue marvel might have been kind of an attempt at that. but i know very little about him.
>>81325640
Maybe.
Except, frankly, he's out of the running because he's black. It changes the context and reception of his character, both in and out of universe.
I can't claim to know what is in Snyder's head concerning Superman. Maybe he loves the characters.
I will just say this: if they hired a director who secretly hated Superman with a burning passion, gave him a quarter billion dollars and had him make a film;
And he made this movie to express his raw hatred of Superman but tried not to make it too obvious;
It would be remarkably like Batman v Superman, I think.
>>81325616
I can definitely see it
>>81323627
There's another scene where Supes saves one of the military guys from a crashing copter, sets him down, and completely detaches himself from the battle just to ask if this guy is alright.
MoS has a bunch of scenes of Superman actually trying to be Superman; it baffles me how BvS just seems to completely step awayfrom that. What happened? Were those glimmers of Supes just pure Goyer?
I hate how Landis' BvS /JL Intro idea sounded better than what we got.
>>81319681
In a way, Jesse Eisenberg's Lex could be a self insert for Snyder. Think about, at no point in the movie does Superman have a high point. Its all low, putting him a place of uncertainty, vulnerability and doubt. While character like Lex and Bruce carry this ship on their shoulders and try to assert dominance, be in a higher standing to him. This whole movie is basically a fuck you to Superman as a whole since he's hated, framed then murdered with no silverlining.
>>81325748
Based on the original Goyer script that got mostly thrown out, it seems pretty clear it was.
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/3c5kmi/potential_spoilers_a_detailed_plot_of_batman_v
>>81326168
That's a fake written by some fag who posted it on IMDB you fucking retard.
>>81319681
because he wasn't there to save him when his dad was beating him.
It's like you didn't even pay attention
>>81323821
You know who's more Superman than Man of Steel Superman? Atom. Brandon Roth as Atom is 50x more the Superman we got in the films and funny enough, he WAS Superman in Returns. He's a blueprint of how superman should carry himself and act.
>>81324710
>batman mature
what a weird statement
>>81319754
Lol, nice meme
>>81325778
and superman triumphs past it all
ITT: NOT MUH SUPERMAN
>>81325748
BvS shows us all the perspectives people have on superman. people see him as angel from above who comes down to carry them up. both the view of him as a savior god and a devil sadden him. it's why he doubts the symbol he's trying to be, it's not working in the world he's in
>>81326925
yes, that's the point
Snyder's Superman is shit
>>81319681
He gives me the feel that he thinks he's too good for this crap.
>>81326925
You can do not muh Superman. Just do it competently.
>>81326927
But that's way too meta, and just straight up not that good.
>>81325466
/tv/ fucking hates the guy
>>81321908
>In short, Snyder is a director with a genuine visual aesthetic and hugely ambitious dreams of turning pop iconography into a new myth for our times.
I disagree completely. This cunt has been aping the wachowski sisters' style since Watchmen and has never since stopped. He's about as genuine as a chinese iphone.
>>81326932
Being different and less of a Reeves throwback doesn't make it shit.
>>81326961
well it's overt and obvious, it's why the movie ends as it does. he actually enacts the symbol into something beyond himself, which is where we see batman at the end of the movie
>>81327111
it's also the meaning of the logo itself, the logo communicates the meaning and story of the movie
>>81327133
>the logo communicates the meaning and story of the movie
Pure marketing?
If Justice League doesn't end this fucking depressed mopey Superman arc after already 2 fucking movies. It's finished.
I want to see Superman resurrected in JL, and the world accepting him. After the people saw his noble sacrifice against Doomsday, hopefully this will finally be the end of this identity confused, dour Supes character arc.
MoS = 'We're not sure what to think of this alien'
BvS = 'Fuck Superman, killing Africans and blowing up a court'
JL = 'We love Superman'
>>81319681
He tried to make the character more interesting by showing a side of superman that has always been there, the side of superman where he feels like an outsider, an alien alone in this world. The side of Superman that shows the pressure he has to endure by being who he is, what it means to him to be seen as a god and a demon. You could argue Snyder should've atleast showed some hope but for me it seem like Snyder is doing supermans character arc through several movies because he doesn't get the chance to do the solo movies. It all fits together as BvS as based on the events of MoS that showed a superman who tried to do the right thing in the first big crisis he had to face, in BvS he tries to deal with wath it means to be a public figure and he feels the pressure for the first time, so far he has no connection to other humans other than Lois and his Mom and yet he tries to do the best with his powers by saving people, yet the distance between him and humanity is still there as people either worship him or fear him as soon as he appears.
While there are obvious critic points in Snyder movies, most of the time people try to push their fixed few on superman, either comic-fags or Donner nostalgia critics and rather want the side of superman the general public doesn't care about since after the first superman movie and they want it immediately. Yet the movies rather showed how the world is reacting to the kryptonian alien with godlike powers and how they are accepting his existence and realizing who he really is, which is shown throurgh Batman, while superman is learning how to deal with the pressure of being superman and that he'll always just have to do the right thing. Clarck and Bruce were being shown as pretty chill persons when they didn't have the costum on. At the end they were very friendly with each other and it seemed like they trusted each other. Batman must've been the first person who called superman a friend.
>>81327252
Superman basically said there is no hope left in the world to Lois as he left to maybe-kill Batman.
That's the antithesis of his character.
>>81327172
not even that, MoS establishes the insignia as a symbol for hope and used it as a way to signal itself
we see a man of steel who becomes a symbol of hope
in this movie, we see the insignia within the bat insignia and the movie is called dawn of justice
the bat is a symbol of fear which is sublimated into a symbol for hopethere's an interview where zack snyder talks about how the bottom of both symbols match up. i'd say the above points are undeniable
>>81327281
>That's the antithesis of his character.
Plenty of comic stories revolve around Superman questioning his place and losing hope, and then regaining it at the end.
>>81327281
no, he said that no one stays good in the world as he was breaking into tears.that moment got to me
he goes to confront batman and immediately tries to talk to him as batman pushes up the aggression superman first intimidates, then over powers, then is brought down by bruce to a level playing field
>>81324924
This movie wasn't Batman V. Superman.
This was Midnighter V. Super-Batman.
Their ideals, personalities and tone don't contrast each other much.
And that's basically inexcusable for a film that's supposed to be about that very concept.
>>81327426
>Plenty of comic stories revolve around Superman questioning his place and losing hope, and then regaining it at the end.
Name some.
>>81319681
He just doesn't understand the idea of selflessness.
How can someone want to help someone else without being burden by it or being deeply broken (like Batman)? How can making someone safe be its own reward?
This baffles him.
>>81327431
>he said that no one stays good in the world as he was breaking into tears.
The brought me to tears too, but because superman is the one person I don't want to hear say that. His idealism is what makes him super dammit. If even he loses that it's over. Fucking Superman became pessimistic. Just end me now.
>>81327505
Completely unearned.
Like almost everything in Snyder's shitfest.
>>81319681
He doesn't hate Superman. How could he, he never read a Superman book in his life.
>>81327281
he wasn't going to kill batman, he never had the intention to, if he wanted it, batman would've been dead already.
And he wasn't talking about hope for the world, till this point it was all about him, so far it seemed like his existence was causing more damage then good, the world partly hated him and he was about to lo lose the only two persons he ever cared about, of course he'll have doubts about his own existence in this world. When he fought against Zodd he didn't lose hope, he didn't hesitate to "destroy" Krypton and neither when he had to defeat Doomsday by using a weapon that might kill him as well.
It has always been about superman, his hardships doubts and decisions, Snyder might as well have used Wonder Woman or even Batman to defeat Doomsday but it was superman bringing his biggest sacrifice, which in turn gave Batman hope.
>>81319681
He is plagued by the collective obsession most Superman writers have of wanting to write "Superman being sad" stories.
The John Byrne Superman that most people know and loved, that inspired all the quotes and panels that fans love to re-post in Supes threads is dead. DC killed it with New-52.
Now Supes is troubled and confused, he wants to help the world but he all alone and the world doesn't really understand him. He is young and doesn't fully know how to use his powers etc. etc. cliche etc.
>>81327426
This.
'Kingdom Come'. When old Supes goes into retirement because he was afraid that Magog has become the people's man of tomorrow.
'What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?'
>>81327475
maybe if you read a comic book in your life you would know some you pleb.
>>81319681
But it's the contrary, actually:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2016/03/29/zack-snyder-loves-superman-and-batman-v-superman-proves-it/#712a8040258e
>>81327637
>Zack Snyder honors Superman’s history and legacy in this film, by having the goodness and idealism of Superman dominant as an idea debated and argued throughout the story, until ultimately that idealism and goodness are what saves the world and becomes a great sacrifice to convince us all to have hope and faith again. Batman and the other heroes will be inspired by that goodness, that idealism, that sacrifice, and eventually Superman will of course return to life and join the other heroes.
>>81327660
Remember when Forbes reviewed The Legend of Korra and called it the best, most cerebral cartoon ever made?
>>81327505
he didn't become pessimistic at all
if he was actually pessimistic, he would have killed batman
it's actually a brilliant thing to notice about his relationship to batman. deep down, batman knows superman is sincere and cannot handle that he can't be like superman in the inside. by the end he is
Ultraman > Superman
>>81327485
>This baffles him
No, it baffles humanity. That's a key theme in the fucking film. People today are too cynical to accept it at face value.
>>81327485
Most people in our society feel this way.
>>81324480
You mean when he went full Black Lives Matter and started fighting fucking cops?
>>81321908
>masculine
Nah son. Men find solutions, women held grudges and brood.
>>81327660
The thing is that throughout MoS and BvS, far more time is spent talking about Superman being a symbol of hope than actually showing that he is one. It's like Snyder's been told what Superman is supposed to be but doesn't understand what that actually means.
>>81327801
the movie is so obvious in this
>>81327789
i mean seriously what the fuck
and what the fuck is going on with the site
>>81327935
We Google+ now, Susan.
>>81327709
>if he was actually pessimistic, he would have killed batman
Wut? Pessimist doesn't mean murderer.
>>81327899
What's wrong with that? That's a legit cause he SHOULD be behind.
>>81323627
>the fucking idea that people honestly think that superman would (because he has an ideological disagreement with someone) stand in the fucking road and let a guy crash a car into him knowing full well with his invulnerability that person could be crushed, only so he can rip the roof off that car and browbeat that person into going away because superman has deemed their particular method of crimefighting unfit for existence....it blows my fucking mind.
Not the part during MoS where Superman said a whole culture of people had their chance and didn't deserve another so he destroys their means to a future revival? I mean he even said his world was gone in BvS and neglected to mention it's because he zaaped their hope of a revival while he already had the upper hand on Zod. This moment got way too many passes.
>>81327928
Literally the whole montage where he is saving people. That he feels conflicted, doesn't mean isn't seen as a symbol of hope.
>>81319681
dunno
>>81328093
there is a huge difference between krypton as the home world of supermans family and Krypton as Zodd wanted it to be.
>>81324710
that's a bait as subtle as Snyder "metaphors"
Most adults hate Superman.
>>81328153
>there is a huge difference between krypton as the home world of supermans family and Krypton as Zodd wanted it to be.
What Zod wanted Krypton to be didn't matter because Superman had the codex embedded in him. Zod did not. Superman did not have to destroy Krypton. His dad got stabbed to death and gave Superman the codex so he could be "The bridge between two peoples." Krypton consisted of more than an idiotic government. It was actually Synder's idea to have Superman destroy his culture and any future they had to form his no kill code.
>>81328093
>their hope of a revival
he hasn't
remember, his physical self is imbued with that hope
>>81325602
Yeah, still Sentry was a portrayal of what happens to a man with less mental fortitude when he tries to impose on himself the unbreakable "help-everybody" code like Superman. He goes fucking insane with grief and guilt over everybody even he wasn't powerful enough to save.
>>81328112
>Literally the whole montage
So Superman's reason for being is relegated to a montage (which btw is more Jesus imagery than heroics), and the rest of the film is people talking about hope and inspiration and how he's a symbol?
Yes, this is exactly the point I was making, thank you.
>far more time is spent talking about Superman being a symbol of hope than actually showing that he is one.
>>81328405
He destroyed the Genesis ship which was the only means of reviving them.
>STOP! IF YOU DESTROY THIS SHIP..YOU DESTROY KRYPTON
>KRYPTON HAD IT'S CHANCE!!
>now I have no people...
That ship was necessary to any future the planet's people could have had.
>>81324125
>tfw we may never get a hopeful, inspirational supes
It hurts famalam ;-;
Explain what objective worth as a character Superman has that makes him beyond reproach and essentially a sacred cow to a man who is first and foremost a film maker.
When was the last time American capeshit had any of this optimism and hope bullshit you're whining about? DC themselves have pushed this bleak and hopeless shit for decades because their fucking business depends on nothing getting better in the DC universe.
I don't know, in two movies the only thing he has done is make an angsty superman and compare him with jesus.
>>81328440
the point of the montage is that people see him as an outer wordly angelic savior when he's just a guy who wants to help
what dies is precisely this idea of an otherwordly figure who comes from above to bring us up
i'll add that the only reason i pick up on this is because i've been thinking the same about our real world christianity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C16eiQH06RE
>>81328492
You bet it does.
>When you first came to us, we thought people would come and take you away because, when they found out, you know, the things you could do... and that worried us a lot. But then a man gets older, and he starts thinking differently and things get very clear.
>And one thing I do know, son, and that is you are here for a REASON. I don't know whose reason, or whatever the reason is... Maybe it's because... uh... I don't know. But I do know one thing. It's not to score touchdowns.
>All those things I can do. All those powers. And I couldn't even save him.
It's not until you go into retrospect that you find that that was one damn fine scene and encompassed all the lessons that made Clark understand what it meant to be the Man of Steel.
>>81328530
Nice Strawman.
The issue isn't that Superman should be beyond reproach, the issue is that what we've got is Superman used as a Jesus metaphor and a plot device with next to no real characterization and almost no portrayal of him actually behaving heroically for 2 fucking films.
>>81328443
there's always hope anon............
i don't mind these questions since they're going all the way with these movies anyway
>>81328492
Time to go rewatch the Justice League cartoon again.
>>81327999
week bait
>>81328626
Winter soldier
>>81328742
Every time I feel depressed about the movies, I just go watch an episode from the DCAU.
>>81328722
this. he immediately knows all the consequences of clark and knows what he'll face, in bvs he faces exactly what his father said he would
I've seen many posts claiming Snyder is a randist/objectivist. Anything to back that up (i.e. interview, his actual words) or it's just butthurt from shit like gawker and salon that he wants to make a movie out of Foutainhead?
>>81328710
Yeah, exactly. It's not about who Superman is, or why he does what he does, it's about him being a fucking Jesus metaphor.
And all in a goddamn montage.
This is shit, I don't understand how you seem to think it's anything but lazy hackneyed storytelling. He hasn't even moved on from MoS, he's still moping about the same "conflicted alien messiah" bullshit.
ITT: people who don't get auteur theory
By the way, I watched the DCAU movie Justice League vs Teen Titans the other day. It's way better than BvS if anyone wants something to wash the Snyder taste from their mouths.
You get to see Robin vs Beast Boy; Dance Dance Revolution.
>>81328396
We are talking about the ship Superman destroyed and Superman destroyed the Krypton Jo-El was talking about, with the engineered babies with designated jobs, the krypton that destroyed itself, the krypton Zodd wanted to re-create.
The ship represented everything what was wrong with Krypton and superman being the bridge only means superman as a representative of krypton.
>>81328849
well we know why he does what he does. this movie deals with the worlds view of him.
again, he himself doesn't view himself as a god but other people do
it's explicit in the movie. everyone is debating over superman and what he is and what he isn't and what he should and shouldn't do. clark readily drops whatever he's doing to help people when he can
>where does clark go? he taps his shoes twice and goes back to kansas
>superman has red boots
>the party scene where clark is following bruce and sees that somewhere people are in danger, he goes to help
the struggle of the movie is that he wants to be a symbol of hope but people selfishly and wrongly think of him like a messiah.
the christ imagery is not to make him literally christ, the christ things are just ancient common tropes anyway, it's to show clarks ascension into a symbol of hope beyond his own self
>bruce now believes men are good, i failed him in life i won't fail him in death
the movie is a ritualistic experience, a dark night of the soul where those involved get transformed
i'm telling you now, next movie will have a fully actualized superman
>>81329013
>i'm telling you now, next movie will have a fully actualized superman
They told me that at the end of MoS...
>>81329660
Tom is a known faggot, don't bother with him.
Superman at his core is an archetype. Snyder made a Superman who would be in the real world, who wouldn't be loved by everyone at all times, and who would be fallible and doubt himself. I really respect that
>>81319681
He's basically that 13-year old kid you knew who only read Spawn and Wolverine and thought Superman was lame and gay. Only much older and contracted by WB to make Superman movies.
>>81329660
not exactly
see, mos ends on a hopeful note because he hear clark and his plans for the future after having already taken on the mantle of a public symbol
mos= clark takes on the ideal. the superman is born, birth
bvs=superman struggles with his burden, has doubts, manhood
justice league=wisdom, this transition is signaled by wonder woman who i take as a stand in for that one greek goddess of wisdom >the frame where she stands between batman and superman >dawn of justice
both movies signal a hope for the future at the very end. smiling superman entering the world, the dirt rising which mirrors young bruce's rising at the beginning
I know this is the new narrative but I just don't buy it.
I didn't like BvS, but it made me go back to watch MoS again and my opinion of that movie has basically skyrocketed.
Nobody who hates Superman could have made that movie.
>>81319681
He's an objectivist hack. He literally believes people have substituted Jesus with Superman, he's a fucking moron.
It's like you can tell he never watched any of the original Superman films, or he did and he fucking hated them. You can also tell he's never picked up a comic book other than Watchmen in his entire life.
>>81329660
>They told me that at the end of MoS...
It would've been if it was an actual sequel and not justice league 0.5.
>>81330164
>It's like you can tell he never watched any of the original Superman films
neither did Nolan.
>>81330201
That's the problem. It's not only Justice League Beta 0.549, it also has Batman listed in the title first for a reason.
It's a Batman origin story, not a Superman movie/sequel. It was all about introducing Batman and giving him his journey to become the person to found the Justice League. It doesn't care about Superman, marginalizes him and regresses his story to make him an object for Batman.
>>81319681
His dad beat him so hard he stopped believing in Superheroes
>>81330293
except its all about superman and the consequences of his existence and actions. The problem being that he has to share way more screentime with other elements shoved in for no reason.
>>81329977
here's something that i've noticed
in man of steel, it's noted how he doesn't have full control of his powers and only just learned to fly
the way he uses his laser vision is especially important, he always uses it when he's afraid or mad or otherwise wants to push things away. it's wild whenever he unleashes it and he can only use it for a few seconds. >focus on my clark, pretend my voice is an island
zod's speech about being a trained warrior from birth,
we see that he immediately learns to use his powers after having already seen him experience the pain of having full kryptonian power on earth.
not only does he learn to fly but also uses his laser vision more more effectively than superman, by the end being able to completely sustain it, oddly enough also the moment he tells clark where he's at. clark tells him to stop, he says never, he's physically holding the vision
another thing to note, is how onscreen the the kryptonian experience is a mess of sensory perception. focus is something that is learned that takes effort and is willed by the individual
in bvs, we superman has complete control of his powers which just clicked in mind after the birth, manhood, wisdom post
>>81330323
>>81330293
how does 4chan know that you are girls? ist that some smart algorithm?
>>81330382
>focus on my voice clark, pretend it's an island do you see it? swim to the island clark
>>81330411
it's random
>>81330422
>push the boat into my canal
>>81328813
>Given all your involvements, do you have time to develop anything outside of this?
>ZACK We have The Last Photograph that I've been working on for a long time. It's a small, sort of weird project about a war photographer in Afghanistan. I have been working on The Fountainhead. I've always felt like The Fountainhead was such a thesis on the creative process and what it is to create something. Warner Bros. owns [Ayn Rand’s] script and I’ve just been working on that a little bit.
>http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/batman-v-superman-married-creative-874799?utm_source=twitter
That's all Google gave me, but there appear to be some comparisons prior to the article
Superman is too deep of a character 4 everyone
>>81329013
>i'm telling you now, next movie will have a fully actualized superman
Oh come the fuck off, you think I wasn't hearing this after MoS for the past 3 goddamn years
>>81330702
well i haven't been leading anyone on in that time
and i certainly wasn't saying
>y-you'll see!
i took observations i've made of the movie and uses ideas i'm familiar with to explain some thoughts i have. that's all
>>81324578
>about to object
>occurs to me that I technically am a basement dweller
>mfw
touché
http://strawpoll.me/7245953
Vote
>>81319754
He just needs to quip more
