I loved it, despite disliking Man of Steel and superhero films in general. I saw it as a quite subversive take on Superman's history, and how that reflects changing attitudes to religion and morality in society.
Three lines really stood out to me: Clark's boss saying "this isn't 1938" (the year Superman debuted), Superman saying "My world doesn't exist anymore", and Lex's speech about God not answering his prayers when he was beaten by his father.
The theme seemed to be that a hero and messia-like figure like Superman wouldn't fit in today's world, some see him as a saviour but there's too much cynicism and wariness for most to accept him. It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical, which I found very clever. The courtroom scene illustrated it perfectly: thinking a god is subservient to civil laws.
The world-weary Batman who's given up on principles like no killing is the hero who fits in today's world. He has a nihilistic outlook, even saying his own work is ultimately pointless (pull up a weed and another grows in its place), and of course being totally skeptical of a god-like figure. But he's not just a cynical asshole, he's got good reasons for his views because Superman is potentially very dangerous, despite pure intentions (like the religion and morals he represents).
I was totally surprised by how ambitious the movie is. Of course, with the fantasy and fight scenes, it's still a genre movie. But it's an intelligently made genre movie.
>>81284097
Lex Luthor's piss in a jar is clearly an allusion to Andres Serrano's Piss Christ.
>>81284097
Batman is the Ubermench
Lex is Prometheus, doomsday it's his frankestein monster
It came across as a poorly formed atheistic story made by someone who has never actually read Nietzsche, Prometheus or literally any kind of mythology, and really has an incomplete worldview which is reflected in the story of the movie itself. Subversion is adolescent at it's heart no matter what
>>81286453
I guarantee you Chris Terrio is more well read than you are.
Any critical analysis that is based on the assumption that the person involved is stupid and ignorant immediately gets the side eye from me.
>>81286637
I'm not so sure about that, as the movie demonstrates a severe misinterpretation of both the Prometheus myth and of the concept of the Übermensch
>>81286715
take prometheus, add faust
The movie was one giant homage to Excalibur. That's even the movie the Wayne's were coming out of before they got shot. Now Snyder is saying JL is going to be very "Seven Samurai." Yet another movie he'll fail to understand and completely butcher with any similarities.
>>81286791
Either way, the movie doesn't integrate the themes of either story in any meaningful way
>>81287021
lex has power yet feels powerless in the face of superman, those themes are his journey to power
superman and batman both have power in different ways with bruce feeling powerless in the face of superman he resolves this by trying to directly kill him
the doomsday creature is literally born out of lex luthor's will and carries on it those themes while also carrying all the themes of the movie, power, doubt that is eventually defeated in a dreamy mythical scene by the ultimate act of goodness, self sacrifice
>>81284097
>It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical
This also applies to Superman as a cultural icon; it's uncertain whether Superman is unpopular because he's unapplicable and obsolete in modern pop culture or because capefags are too casual and swept up in the Marvel monopoly to fully appreciate him.
>yfw BvS is actually a guage to determine what society interprets Superman as
3deep5me
>>81286951
homage to a bunch of shit movie takes from as many stories and mythology as it can, then takes it to it's logical literal/figurative end
>>81287230
Too bad the movie had a deeply confused conception of what power actually is in a philosophical sense. The story wanted Doomsday to be a metaphor, but it was inherently misguided and turned out with absolutely nothing. It's fatal flaw was it's total floundering with Superman as a character, who should have been the heart and soul of the story and the rock of it's thematic meaning, but was portrayed so emptily that the movie was left soulless
>>81287347
It only matters what the writer interprets Superman as, and in modern culture we've only had two Superman movies by someone who hates Superman
I like how Lex found faith through Darkseid.
>>81287347
>>81287347
the movie both addresses in universe and external cynicism to superman and his values
'must there be a superman'
yes
'if you seek his monument, look around you'
i immediately took this to both signal the people in metropolis but the movie audience as well
>>81287347
No shit, we knew this when the Comic Con trailer dropped. This movie was entirely a reaction to MoS and how society views Superman as a character. Lex and Bruce are analogues for the asshurt faggots who spent 3 years shitposting about Man of Murder.
>>81287477
>>81287497
Too bad this entire idea falls apart when you realize that this Superman they've put out fundamentally misses the mark as a character
>>81287392
superman has near absolute power that informs his view of justice
batman doesn't have that same power so he resorts to other methods to both gain power and enact justice
superman avoids violence, he doesn't kill anyone
batman enacts violence out of necessity
the idea of superman is the center of the movie
it's already establish that he's a symbol for hope, by the end of the movie bruce is convinced and the world recognizes his sacrifice
superman is only concerned with enacting good, and after having been made to bleed by superman enacts a true act of good through self sacrifice all while the movie combines literal and figurate and everything on screen literally devolved into simple narrative abstractions
>>81287561
I agree. I thought they were going to redeem him in this movie initially, but he's just as dour and emotionless as he was in MoS. Maybe when he comes back from the dead he'll stop being such a pussy about people not liking him and just be a fucking hero.
>>81287561
how? he never commits a bad act in the movie, not once
he wants to save everyone yet is made aware that he can't
that's why his statue gets destroyed, that's why the movie is the dawn of justice
he gets more heartbroken as the story goes on yet never once falters from his choice to do good, even when he goes to be alone in the mountains he is set up with what is the resolution to the tension of the movie, love
>>81284097
>The theme seemed to be that a hero and messia-like figure like Superman wouldn't fit in today's world, some see him as a saviour but there's too much cynicism and wariness for most to accept him.
wow it's almost like that news report scene at the end of the avengers
>>81287646
Again, you and the movie both fail to form a clear conception of what power actually is in any coherent sense, and fail to understand either Batman or Superman as characters. The stories failing to capture who Superman is makes the entire concept collapse upon itself
>>81287831
i'm just going to take this to mean that the movie didn't present a vision of superman that you wanted
what i think the movie tried and succeeded in doing is having the superman idea triumph over doubt and fear
>>81287734
The movie has a confused, undefined conception of what it actually means to "do good". We never see Superman uplift people in any real way. He saves people in a manner that's more than just pulling them from danger. The movie literally fails at capturing who Superman is on every single level
Superman kills a fucking African warlord. What the fuck are all of you people on about?
>>81287831
i also don't understand what you mean by fail to form a clear conception of power, although that may be because you haven't tried to explain what this clear conception of power is or how the movie fails in expressing this conception of power
>>81287949
There was no real Superman idea in either movie, that's the issue. Snyder never once in either story understood who Superman was, and his version of him is just a meandering, vague undefined mess of a character.
>>81288034
You wanna know the reason he killed him at the end of this movie? Because he thought it would be cooler for Batman to form the Justice League on his own without him.
>>81287992
But he didn't kill him at all. If he did the movie would say he did but he didn't so we're gonna have to assume that the dude is still alive.
>>81288003
In a philosophical sense, where does Synder's story assert that power is derived from? Because it doesn't actually have any idea whatsoever what power or justice are as concepts.
>>81287988
what you're seeing is the central tension that movie is about. he tries to do good things in the way the statue depicts him, an otherworldly larger than life figure who comes down from above to pick us up,
that is where the mythic arthurian/christ/etc trope comes in and he is made to feel his mortality
'you aren't brave, men are brave'
the statue is destroyed and superman himself lets go of any doubts and fear commits to the act.
>>81288107
you don't have to assume, superman himself says he didn't kill anyone.
Man with Snyder directing Justice League and Chris Terrio who may be a good screenwriter, but has no experience with writing Superheroes. JL already looks like it will share the same fate as BvS. The fact that they've already started shooting means they have a pretty much finished script in some kind. I mean sure they can continue to modify it as we speak because BvS completely failed in everything except box office.
They really need to make a Man of Steel 2. Like 'Man of Tomorrow.' Cavil Supes has had 2 movies, 2 fucking movies to develop this character and hopefully BvS finally ends this brooding character arc. I mean it won't be immediately joyful, but people saw his sacrifice and mourned his death post-BvS. When he comes back to life and humanity has accepted him. Maybe we can get a fucking Supes who smiles once in a while.
The Villain will not be some world threatening level like Zod or Doomsday. But Lex Luthor, not Alex Luthor Eisenberg. Not the real estate business shit, but a manipulative narcissistic magnificent bastard. Maybe in this movie he's an ambitious politician weaving all the strings. He's pretty relaxed, maybe even bored because he's reached the mountaintop, and other human ever will. Until Superman gains more popularity.
Alex Luthor is just a kid who will always be in his father's shadow. Probably why his dad belted him as a kid, because he will never live up to expectation geez.
>>81288131
Again, the entire concept falls apart when you realize the story utterly fails at forming the character of Superman in a way that even comes close to this. It's seriously a fundamental misunderstanding of Superman as a character that destroys any attempt at thematic meaning. Batman's line about men being brave is ridiculous. In a totally unaware fashion, the movie made Batman a bitter child who's mad at God for his parents being killed and is trying to make Superman answer for it. This is in no way a good Batman vs Superman conflict. Snyder really failed to understand either character
>>81287988
>The movie literally fails at capturing who Superman is on every single level
I'm baffled every time I see a post like this because literally every person who claims someone doesn't 'get' Superman not only fails to distinguish the 'right' interpretation of Superman, but also fails to remember that Superman's possible interpretations are probably the most open-ended for any comic character in history.
How is it that people on /co/ can clearly define Batman down to the nitty gritty but can't interpret Superman beyond "HE SHOULD DO GOOD AND NO KILL"
>>81288374
>this movie really didn't get Superman you guise
>it just didn't
>so pls stop liking what I don't like
There's no pleasing the purist.
>>81287988
>superman is supposed to be inspire people
He did inspire people though.
>>81288444
>>81288445
Superman is almost like Bugs Bunny, he's the thoughtform of the writers imagination who is the bridge between the world of dreams and fantasy and the mundane world that we live in. He's supposed to be a character that not only has read the script, but can change it as he sees fit. He's the antithesis to the cynicism of our reality, he's every dream and fantasy you've ever had about being able to leap into the sky and ride the shooting star you just saw fly above you. Superman is our imagination incarnate.
>>81288559
I'm talking about individual people in small ways, a knowing wink after he saves you that makes you feel like he's a genuine friend of yours that knows you personally. That's what was missing. Superman is supposed to feel like everyone's best friend, even Batmans.
>>81288559
He inspired Batman to lose his mind and go into a murderous fervor to kill him and was seconds away from doing so.
>>81284097
>The theme seemed to be that a hero and messia-like figure like Superman wouldn't fit in today's world, some see him as a saviour but there's too much cynicism and wariness for most to accept him. It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical, which I found very clever.
So it's like Kingdom Come, except stupid?
Subversion of the superhero genre and the ideals that surround it has been done to death, and it's also been done in live action.
>>81288110
superman is unarguably a person of immense power, the whole thing hinges on taking someone of this literal power seriously
batman derives his power through fear and violence
in a way superman does as well, these being people's spontaneous fears. still, superman always tries to show good faith by always being shown as descending to humanity, which again is part of the problem
justice is derived in the act of enacting their will on a situation, superman ties to help as many people as he can without resorting to violence, he commits altruistic acts for those in need
batman uses violence and pain to beget justice, he saves the trafficked women but they see him as a demon and he brands people, thereby signaling his brand of justice
the movie doesn't take a side, and implies that they both need each other in the literal and the abstract to try to reach a higher understanding of justice
>>81287347
The thing is Marvel has been very succesful having a character like Cap, who's just as obsolete as Supes, being a central part of their franchise.
So sure, blame Marvel.
>>81288677
That's what all of the most beautiful Superman moments are made of, Superman not being there as a savior, but just as a good friend to someone who has no one else, even if it's just for a brief moment. It's not pulling them from danger that saves people, but rather sharing that one moment with them. There are no strangers to Superman
>>81288626
Morrison please
The guys who thought him up were kids applying cartoon physics to a generic 30s strongman character because they thought it was hilarious when he jumps 80 stories from the ground just slap a guy's face and call his wife a retard
He's quite possibly the first real product of autism
>>81288769
Captain America isn't Superman though. They can take liberties with his character and no one will give a shit, whereas if Superman sneezes the wrong way it throws people into autistic fits of rage.
>>81287988
Snyder is a convinced Randian. To a guy like that, saving people is a chore, maybe a duty, but certainly not something you're happy to be doing.
>>81288732
Again, a confused and poorly conceived idea of power and justice, with a totally unfocused narrative and thematic element. It was just a total failure at portraying Superman as a character
>>81288374
we know what superman is capable of but both us the audience, the world and superman himself is full of doubt as to whether we can form a bridge
and you're absolutely right about batman, this is what he himself realizes
the point of the movie isn't the full concept of superman, it's to show that the concept of a god that comes from above to intervene is ultimately not what this world needs
>>81288626
this
>>81288677
That's not really inspiring as so much as being friendly.
>>81288823
>They can take liberties with his character and no one will give a shit
Because the changes made to Cap are honestly window dressing, they still have the core concept of "A good man out of time" nailed down.
People are so interested in making Superman movies into 2.5 hour long thematic diatribes about what Supes means to them or whether he matters that they forget to actually write a fucking movie.
>>81288827
Could you even imagine a Zack Snyder Question movie?
>>81288823
I guess, I'm just saying there's no reason to assume that people are too cynical for characters like that when it's proven that they aren't.
And the only reason they changed Supes so much is because of that assumption.
>>81288769
>Cap being used to showcase American federal and military politics in every decade since his debut
>Cap acting as a metaphor for veterans and servicemen in almost every story he's in
>obsolete
>>81288810
Superman is meant to be the avatar for the writers fantasies. If you don't have a whimsical mind prone to escapism and fantasy, you shouldn't be writing Superman. Superman's true power is manifesting his imagination as reality, allowing to live out anything he dreams. That's why he was able to have all of these bizarre situation specific powers. He conceives them through his childlike imagination.
>>81288677
>>81288785
this is the problem
superman is not god
he's not all powerful
he can't know all of our names
he can't always be there right when you need him
you can't get mad because he wasn't exactly where you wanted him to be when you wanted him to be
superman cannot save everyone, and that is okay because we ourselves can strive for that ideal for each other
that's the fucking point of his sacrifice
i think i finally understand
>>81288917
>Could you even imagine a Zack Snyder Question movie?
You mean Watchmen?
>>81288196
I bet he lied
>>81288869
Any Superman story at it's heart is meant to be that bridge, it's meant to uplift us into that world of fantasy away from the world we live in. The experience of taking in a Superman story should be an experience of dream like escapism.
>>81288894
Exactly. No matter what danger he's faced with, Superman is just a genuine friendly man, a whimsical and innocent character that overcomes evil with a knowing wink and smile before signing off.
>>81288831
can you fucking at any point flesh out any of what you're talking about?
so far all i've seen is specific situations people want to superman to be in but no one is talking about the nature of power and the ability to enact justice
i try to explain what i think the movie says post after post and all i get is nope! uh uh! failure to present superman as a character! for fucks sake that's the failure inherent within superman, everyone wants their own personal allpowerful being that acts in accordance with their own private thoughts
>>81288947
I like all star superman too anon but that doesn't mean the character is entirely beholden to H-HYPERCRISIS. If being a true superman fan means I have to drink this Kool-aid then I guess I'm not a real Superman fan.
>>81289005
>world of fantasy away from the world we live in. The experience of taking in a Superman story should be an experience of dream like escapism.
which eventually is exactly what the movie turns into. it starts in a world where a man can do incredible things and turns into pure mythic fantasy
>>81288869
>the point of the movie isn't the full concept of superman, it's to show that the concept of a god that comes from above to intervene is ultimately not what this world needs
Yeah and I would probably agree with that irl, but a Superman movie going with the message that the world doesn't need a Superman... I mean that just sounds like a Lex Luthor movie.
The goal of a Superman movie isn't to debate whether Superman is an interesting character and whether the ideals presented by his concept are correct, it's more or less to present those ideals as being correct, whether you agree with them or not.
The movie isn't about you (Goyer, Terrio, Snyder, creatives in general), it's about Superman. If you want to make a story to illustrate your opinion on Superman, then just do an Alan Moore and create an expy, don't use an IP that's corporate-owned and comes with a history and expectations.
>>81288956
The point is, the narrative of any Superman story would only show those moments where he comes as a friend to the friendless, where we see the world fall into chaos and Superman arrive to set it all straight in the most fantastical ways possible with a smile on his face. Superman is a dreamer at heart, his mind is not in the same world we live in. He's the bastion of childlike imagination in our world.
>>81289089
Pure mythic fantasy? I don't think you understand what I'm talking about or what mythic fantasy is at all.
I dont understand why Superman made himself so impersonal to the people of Earth. Why not give an interview so people (and audience) know what hes about? The one chance they had they blew by blowing up the congress building
>>81289016
i don't think that anon is talking about the literal character superman but the subconscious appeal we have of him in the first place, the true meaning of what superman is for the individual underneath it all
we want that power and the freedom and ESCAPE we imagine he has
>>81289108
Exactly. A Superman story needs to be made by someone who loves Superman and wants to create a story where he saves the day and pals around with Jimmy Olsen.
>>81289152
Probably cause he doesn't want his secret identity to be found out. Lois and Lex managed to figure out so whose to say that someone can't figure it out.
>>81289174
I just sick and tired of people freaking out any time someone colors out of the Superman line. I'm surprised Superman ever got as big as he did, because apparently his "true" character is meant only for this specific niche of feel good.
>>81289108
the fucking point of the movie is that superman was right all along, he does what's right at all times, he seeks to hurt no one
it AFFIRMS that superman can indeed be an ideal, but not the ideal of someone who comes from above but of someone who lives fully among us, it also addresses our need for a savior, the desire for escapism to ignore our personal responsibility
'if you seek his monument, look around you'
literally us. if we're so inspired by superman, why aren't we acting like him? why aren't we doing what we think he should do?
>>81289174
Pretty much. Through Superman, we are allowed to escape this world into our imaginations and play in the cosmic playground. Superman is the spirit of that kind of playful imagination we all had as children that was dimmed as we grew older, reminding everyone that it's still within us somewhere.
Like >>81288810 said, his great feats of power are just thoughts that his writers found hilarious, but those laughs from creating those absurd and whimsical situations are in and of themselves the point of Superman. In those moments nothing else matters.
>>81289152
Because otherwise the movie doesn't work. The movie doesn't work if Superman manages to prove to the world he's a good guy, it completely invalidates the enitre premise aswell as Batman's motivations.
No it's much better to do it with a Martha.
>>81289199
I mean, he doesnt gotta go into specifics. The whole movie has Clark like, "finding his humanity" but that isn't who he is. Earth has always been his world, he just comes from Krypton.
He feels really alien, which they were probably going for. I just wasn't a fan of the interpretations
>>81289174
But at some point conflict and tension has to come in play and yeah some level of grit will seep in but if Superman is this icon of heroism you say his than a little grit and cynicism shouldn't be a big deal.
>>81289013
Power and justice are inner, spiritual ideals, which are things Snyder rejects to the point where he gets confused trying to tell a story about them. He just wanted to tell a story about a ostentatious demon knight Batman Chaos Space Marine with no sense of self awareness.
>>81289372
He doesn't feel alien, he feels isolated. He isn't some dour face alien overlord but just a lonely guy. I like that because that's something that has been discussed in the comic.
>>81289377
it isn't, not for me, especially in the movie that goes *all* the way with it's metaphors
i've been trying to understand what's wrong with the movie and it is ultimately the 'it's not what he should be' thing
then we get an explanation of what he should be, and those are things that are directly addressed in the movie
further still, superman is not real at all, yet he is treated as a holy concept, one that seemingly no one actually cares to uphold
this thread is giving me the impression that some people care more about seeing some guy on screen doing some specific thing to validate some need in their life than they care about carrying the ideal for hope irl
>>81284097
wish I could share your opinion anon. I really wanted to like it but Snyder made that physically impossible. I found the 8000 Jesus references annoying and the 1938 line was trying way too hard.
>>81289449
I got much more alien vibes. He continously called Kryton "my world" throughout the film, and during the climax he finally said "this is my world" to Lois before sacraficing himself. I really feel like they dropped the ball with the Superman/Clark Kent dynamic.
>>81289318
But pretty much all the conflict in both movies is entirely caused by Superman merely existing.
What personal responsibility does Joe Schmoe have in this whole Zod thing, or in the piss-jar affair?
For all we know Joe Schmoe in those movies is already a good person, and comes with the added benefit of not causing people to go power-crazy like Supes does.
>>81289449
He's supposed to carry his loneliness with a dignified contentedness, spending time in his Fortress of Solitude, caring for the other aliens that are the last of their kind that he's collected across the cosmos and keeps in his habitats and watching over the bottled city of Kandor. He absolutely is a lonely man because his power and cosmic awareness sets him apart from everyone else, but this is something he accepts.
He's like Achilles in the Iliad, always sitting on the hill above the other heroes playing his lyre and dreaming of the Cosmos.
>>81289479
The hope Superman represents comes in the form of fantastical escapism from the world we live in into our imaginations where we can be whimsical
>>81289479
>i've been trying to understand what's wrong with the movie and it is ultimately the 'it's not what he should be' thing
Well there's that, the confused storytelling, the editing, etc, etc.
>this thread is giving me the impression that some people care more about seeing some guy on screen doing some specific thing to validate some need in their life than they care about carrying the ideal for hope irl
Well we are talking about a movie, anon, not trying to discuss whatever we do (or don't) to make the world a better place.
>>81289434
what do you mean synder rejects these things as inner spiritual ideals?
by the way, power in no way is an inner spiritual ideal, it is something that is always physically enacted. you can't wish power onto yourself, you either inherently have it or you take it that is something so demonstrable within our own history i- i'm lost as to what we're even talking about anymore
the movie clearly depicts certain characters having inner struggles that eventually get externalized this isn't something unique or new except to the extent to which figurate and literal are blurred
i'm not even trying to defend the movie, it's just weird to me that people are saying no! that's wrong! all while the goal posts are always changing
when it came out no one talked about all these themes addressed, the elusive objective quality of i'm not going to comment on, yet in one day the movie suddenly missed the mark that a day ago no one was claiming it's missed
this whole situation is so bizarre to me
>>81284097
Very good post most intelligent anallasis yet. I am curious about what you think of the Excalibur and King Arthur references
Was it just the fight scene and the idea of a round table or possibly more?
>>81289724
Superman was an undefined mess of a character where he should have been the spiritual ideal of power and justice that the others strove to be like. The entire conflict between Batman and Superman that the story was built on was a mess and shattered the potential of the story.
>>81284097
I wish it was 1939 though.
>>81289724
When it came out literally nobody was talking about Superman, they were too busy criticizing the storytelling and other technical aspects as negatives, and praising Batman and/or WW's characterization.
It's just not the most evident thing in the movie I'm guessing, it's pretty often that it takes a while for people to actually discuss themes over more evident qualities of a movie.
>>81289680
>Well we are talking about a movie, anon, not trying to discuss whatever we do (or don't) to make the world a better place.
my point there was trying to sort of point out the catch 22 that depicting superman hinges on
i'm not going to argue whether it's true to superman or not, i don't know what that means at all anymore. the only concrete desired depiction of superman i've seen itt is one of a personal guardian angel like figure
while i do think i have an understanding of the movie and what it is, i feel i can't talk about superman at all anymore
and i'm also now realizing the absurdity of even being involved in this type of conversation
>>81289843
>the spiritual ideal of power and justice that the others strove to be like
in the end that is exactly what he is
I look forward to when I will find these memes funny
'What we call God depends upon our tribe, Clark Joe. Because God is tribal - God takes sides. No man in the sky intervened when I was a boy to deliver me from daddy's fist and abominations. Mm.
I figured way back: If God is all powerful - he cannot be all good. And if God is all good, he cannot be all powerful. Just like you.'
K I N O
I
N
O
>>81289861
>I wish Hitler was still alive
OP, the entire point of Superman's comic book characterization is that all the critiques of him in BvS are invalid. Superman is as good as we all want him to be. He fights for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. He's honest and trustworthy and friendly and kind. Every other hero can falter, but he doesn't.
People may say it's difficult to write a character like that, but I think people who say that have never actually met a fundamentally good person. Those people have their flaws and their failings, but for the most part they are authentically honest and decent. "Decent." That's the perfect word for Superman. He's Midwestern decency with the power of a god.
Snyder doesn't understand this at all and that's why his Superman is terrible.
>>81289969
Too bad the two movies he was in before those few minutes botched everything about his character.
>>81290016
We see this failing most clearly in his Pa Kent. Pa Kent is supposed to be the man Superman models himself after.
>>81284097
I loved it as well...
>>81289920
Ah I guess I understand what you mean.
As in Superman is both there to solve all of our trouble but also supposed to be an inspiration of hope (despite seemingly making that unnecessary in the presence of said guardian angel)?
Is that what you're trying to say with "catch 22"?
It's been explained away plenty of times. It's not exactly the greatest handwave in history but it works. Basically Superman can't save everybody, sometimes you need to save yourself, and the best way to do that is to be like Mik- I mean Jesu- I mean Supes.
>>81289989
Pretty childish honestly.
>>81290066
Costner's Pa Kent is the rotten heart of this disgusting fucking movie universe. I fucking hate, HATE Pa Kent in this universe. He's absolutely fucking awful. I want to bash Snyder's fucking face in for ruining Pa Kent, it makes me genuinely angry.
>>81289989
>having your characters shitting out a bunch of philosophy 101 platitudes that just sound challenging in the hopes of fooling idiots
See? It's still like Nolan.
>>81290142
>how dare Synder portrayes Pa kent as an actual father and not some folksy cliche.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRmMQaLZz8
This video nailed it for me. The entire point is that these AREN'T the characters we're used to at the start, but they grow into them at the end.
>Superman doesn't inspire anyone
He inspired the fucking Bat.
>>81289989
>lex finally found his all powerful god
>>81290016
>People may say it's difficult to write a character like that, but I think people who say that have never actually met a fundamentally good person
Or maybe writing something well isn't the same as knowing that something exists. I means sure, write what you know, but some things are inherently harder to make engaging.
>>81290142
Seriously. Pa Kent is the soul of the Superman mythos, and Snyder botched him completely.
>>81290180
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what these characters are supposed to be anon. Seriously. The Pa Kent Snyder put out isn't more "real" because he's cynical and disillusioned. He just misses the point of what the character actually is.
>>81290180
I've never known a father that grim and joyless. That's like depressing-your-kid-into-committing-suicide tier.
>>81290180
No, FUCK YOU.
That's the entire point of the entire counterargument to this. Pa Kent is NOT a folksy cliche. THERE ARE REAL PEOPLE LIKE PA KENT. There are real people like Clark Kent! There actually are people that are decent and kind and upright. That's what Superman represents. It's not unrealistic, it's rare, but it does happen.
I feel like Snyder has somehow never met one of them, though.
>>81290085
yes exacty the contradictory nature of a guy who literally can't be everywhere at once, exactly we're now full circle back at the movie
what the fuck
>>81290142
It's a different Pa Kent, get over it. Pa Kent in Snyder's universe is conservative and pessimistic, but it's because he loves his son. He knows that Clark's existence alone will change the world, which it realistically would.
While in contrast, Jor El wants him to be a savior. If Pa Kent was also the same, one of the 2 dads would be redundant. Since MoS is going for the dual father juxtaposition.
>>81290286
jor el is optimistic and pa kent is cynical
that's all it is
superman as has been hammered through both movies, has to decide for himself spoiler as do we spoiler
>>81290193
Too bad we had suffered through 4 and a half hours of Clark being a mopey ass to get there.
For all the talk about "not an origin story", Jesus fuck, 4 hours to establish Superman's character?
>>81290286
Nah, it was honestly just a total misunderstanding of the character and what he means in the context of Superman as a whole.
>>81290286
>MoS is going for the dual father juxtaposition.
Yeah, but the audience shouldn't feel relief when Clark's father dies, yet it's hard to feel sympathy when he's been so dour. If I feel like Clark is better off when his father gets sucked into a tornado, that's probably a bad thing.
I saw it for the third time tonight. Affleck and Irons just straight fucking kill it as Bruce/Batman and Alfred. Affleck is in my opinion by far the best Batman of all time. He has the looks, the physicality, and the acting chops to put it all together. I also would like to say that I was pretty pleased with Gal Gadot. I thought for sure she was going to be a complete shitshow but am very happy with her performance and am really looking forward to her solo movie. Although she is still too fucking skinny, her face and length are very much to my liking for Wonder Woman, and her acting was pretty solid in her limited role, I will however reserve my final judgement until I have seen more. Henry was solid, not fantastic but did fine. I actually kinda liked Eisenberg as Lex, and I dig the new take on the character.
Finally I would like to add that the Batmobile is fucking titties. It's like the bastard son of a Formula one car and an Abrams tank, and all the advantages of both with none of the weaknesses. That thing is a fucking fighter jet with wheels hot damn I loved it.
>>81290282
>the contradictory nature of a guy who literally can't be everywhere at once
So sometimes you have to make do without him, and in those cases emulate his behavior.
It's really not that confusing.
Also don't confuse the people in DC and the audience. The escapism is supposedly only appealing to us, while the "symbol of hope, great guy you want to emulate, yadda-yadda" si supposed to appeal to both. Which, yeah that's a bit weird.
I'm not entirely sure what you're confused about though.
>>81290380
Too bad this Batman had no real personality.
>>81290286
Well yeah but the human guy should be the one who's an inspiration for him to be a hero, that's literally all that tethers Clark to Earth, is having his inspirational father figure, and henceforth his morals, being a literal down-to-Earth thing. God fucking damnit it's so damn obvious.
I fucking hate Jor El being so involved as a concept, you don't want Superman to be MORE alien when that already puts off too many people. And yeah I know it's like that in his comic origin too these days but I can still hate it.
>>81284097
OP, while I loved the movie and that stuff may be there. It's buried under the atrocious editing, transitions, and overbearing music and blatantly non subtle symbolism. I love the movie and you can too, but to claim it was well made is just a lie.
>>81290366
You sound edgy as fuck.
>>81288107
Um, no. I'm going to assume that the unpowered human that got blasted through 3 concrete walls is dead.
>>81288361
>they've already started shooting
They haven't.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/02/21/justice-league-starts-April-11
>>81290513
You sound like you need to learn some reading comprehension. The other guy isn't approving of it, the reverse in fact.
>>81285733
2deep4me
http://strawpoll.me/7206802/
http://strawpoll.me/7206802/
http://strawpoll.me/7206802/
>>81290709
>nearly neck and neck on all 3 choices
what even was this movie?
>>81290739
It was bad. As someone who loved it I can say that for sure
>>81290892
Bad as a film. Perfect as a movie. I hate to meme it up here but I don't know how else to explain myself.
>>81290400
that we're full circle back at something the movie depicts, yet somehow the movie is a failure
i've given up trying to prove it as a superman think i'm giving up trying to show the overt thematic connections and how they're all sewed through the characters into the abstract climax
i'm not a film expert, but the experience of watching it was a mythic surreal fantasy
>>81290193
i agree with they completely
Man of Steel should have been a reconstruction of Superman, not a deconstruction. Do you know one of the best ways that they could have done this? With Zod and Luthor.
Instead of being the maniac that we see in MoS we see a man who desperately wants to save Krypton and the constitution which is basically 'Truth, Justice and the 'closet thing to the ideal American Way'', but at the same time shows compassion to both his enemies and allies. In short, in a different story, he could have been the hero.
Meanwhile Luthor could have been one of those cynical bastards who mock the very idea of heroes.Those who say that heroes could not exist in the real world and believe that Zack Snyder's Watchmen has the most accurate depiction of a society of Superheroes.
Anyway, getting back to the point of how these antagonists could serve as good points of a reconstruction. Zod could react to Earth how MoS Superman reacted to the idea of Krypton reappearing. When he sees the evil and cruelty man can do, he believes that they pose a threat to Krypton and vows to destroy them. Superman could kill him again, but it would have to be in a less direct manner then a broken neck.
Meanwhile, Lex would have to be introduced in the first movie, not the sequel. He wouldn't need a big part. Just enough that so that we could tell a small subplot of him believing that Superheroes like Superman are unrealistic, .i.e. He sees the culture of Krypton somehow and sees how violent it became in its last moments, or maybe just how powerful Superman is. Therefore he believes that Superman has an ulterior agenda to heroism which ultimately leads onto BvS as he thinks someone like Batman will agree with him.
With these two characters, we have captured two ideas. They are how the general public perceive Superman (Luthor) and how that would be expressed (Zod).
In the battle of this rewrite, the destruction can be on the same scale. However, Superman has to prioritize saving life over stopping Zod.
CONTIN
>>81292428
completely redundant anon
>>81292428
CONTINUED
Another element that you could add to it, is how the plot of being a child of two worlds is concluded. Due to Krypton's destruction, there were multiple Krytonians, adults and children sent out to find new planets, not just Clark. Instead of simply destroying the ships which could form a new Krypton, Superman could instead decide to use his powers of memory to know how he can build a new planet from the Kryptonians that were sent out into space along side him. To find them, he could use a beacon or some shit like it which could also set up a potential Brainiac or cosmic movie.
Also with BvS, the conflict would come from misunderstandings on both of the heroes parts, not just extreme paranoia from Batman. Also, with Wonder Woman and Batman, their joint motif of the film could be 'A deconstruction turning into a reconstruction', something which has come from the existence of Superman and his idealistic ways.
>>81288917
>they still have the core concept of "A good man out of time" nailed down.
Only because they make fun about it constantly. His defining character trait is the butt end of jokes.
>>81284097
>Superman saying "My world doesn't exist anymore"
Yeah because you fucking destroyed it you fucking psychopath. Zod said," Now I have no people" because you destroyed the remains of Krypton and any future it had. This is an atrocious fucking Superman who isn't a hero at all.
>>81292697
Sure jokes are made about it, but you forget this. Captain America's war is over. He doesn't have to fight anymore and hell, no one would blame him if he retired. Still, he fights for what he believes is right and will continue doing so.
Also, unlike Millar's Cap, he doesn't make racist comments and keep saying 'MUH AMERICA WAS GREATER THAN YOUR AMERICA" and being an insensitive racist, sexist jackass
>>81289152
>I dont understand why Superman made himself so impersonal to the people of Earth.
Same reason you don't see firefighters, paramedics and cops interviewed every time they save a person. He's there just to do a job and help, not schmooze with journalists that try to deconstruct and manipulate his image for clickbait articles.
And the movie does point out via Bruce Wayne that Daily Planet writes stories about him all the time that glorify him, only for people (like Bruce Wayne) to scoff at that and still consider Superman suspicious and scary. It's a direct statement on how people today will rather hold onto their own biased opinions and only go to places that only reaffirm those opinions rather than seek an impartial news source that might challenge their beliefs. Nobody cares about objective truth anymore, it's selling slanted opinions to get clicks online.
>>81284097
Subversion is only clever if there's something to subvert. Without the context of a decent live action Superman in recent cinema, a "subversion" completely misses the point, because there's no proper context.
>>81292782
>He doesn't have to fight anymore and hell, no one would blame him if he retired.
He keeps fighting in the movies mainly because he literally has nothing else to do with his life, beyond hitting the gym. You never seem him even really care that he has no proper civilian life. SHIELD took care of his bills, his apartment, etc. He's ridiculously disconnected from the people when you think about it. The only reason he befriends Falcon while jogging in TWS is because the movie needed Falcon introduced and them become bffs in five minutes or less. And they still had to do it in a jokey way.
>>81292865
That is correct. Most people who saw these movies probably hadn't seen/read something with Superman 10+ years (and even then that's cartoons).
>>81292865
the subversion isn't of superman himself but the idea of the type of being he represents
the movie addressed tropes themselves
>>81290484
Snyder's Pa Kent is more realistic person with flaws. He inspires without making completely campy, life altering speeches at the drop of a hat. He inspires Clark by his deeds, like rushing to help people during a tornado and rather risking his own life to save a beloved family pet than go "you know what, let Clark do it. I'm not going to risk my neck over a fucking dog." And ultimately, he sacrifices his life in order to guarantee that Clark can discover and decide his own fate, to choose to be Superman, rather than instilling a "you have to be the perfect boyscout, invincible son. The capeshit genre demands that this speech means you turn to the perfect hero!" type lecture.
>>81292921
Those tropes haven't been that naively represented in recent movies either. I mean the most succesful cape movies of the last decade were Iron Man and Batman, neither are really seen as idealized or godlike by the public.
Even Cap has had his naivete shoved in in Winter Soldier.
Maybe if you made BvS after Raimi's Spider-Man went with the shallow Jesus angle itself.
>>81292865
The subversion is of the pop culture idea of Superman that everybody is vaguely aware of. The one people make fun of all the time because they think he's this boring, super cheesy, invincible boyscout character with unlimited powers who can never lose or make mistakes.
>>81292941
There's sort of a middle ground though. You can have him lead by example without being so much of a downer through the whole damn movie. You don't even need to have him give grandiloquent speeches, just show that he believes that Clark can use his powers for good, at least one day, just have him instil some of the hope that Superman is supposed to give off afterwards.
As is, yes his protective instincts as a father are realistic and endearing, but it doesn't serve Clark becoming heroic later. Which, wouldn't you know it, took him 10 years of randomly wandering around the Earth and finally getting a boner for a lady to figure out.
And I mean fine, if you don't want Superman to be a "boyscout" this movie was made for you I guess, I just don't think that's doing the IP much justice. There are a lot of other characters in the "capeshit genre" that are better suitted for cynicism, including a handful of Superman expies.
It's not interesting, it's been done tons of times. Playing the classic characterization of Superman straight would be much more of a feat of strenght than going full disillusionned teenager with it.
>>81292967
That already gets subverted in like, every Superman cartoon and half of his comics
>>81292941
>He inspires Clark by his deeds, like risking his own life to save a beloved family pet than go "you know what, let Clark do it. I'm not going to risk my neck over a fucking dog."
>people still defend running into a tornado to save a dog
>>81293022
Which, wouldn't you know it, took him 10 years of randomly wandering around the Earth and finally getting a boner for a lady to figure out
He was searching for his origin. Meanwhile Reeves Superman sat at his fortress of solitude for ages listening Marlon Brando lecture him and then he just is Superman. Realistically you don't just decide to put on a cape and become a superhero. Clark wanders around, helping people occasionally, and only through the combined effort of discovering his roots and fighting Zod's does he find the answer in what he will become now: A Superman.
>>81293075
>but the other movie was shitty too
Yeah I'm sure that's comforting.
>>81289562
>But pretty much all the conflict in both movies is entirely caused by Superman merely existing.
Isn't that the point? It's everyone's reaction to him that causes shit, Superman can't help being here and has the best of intentions.
>>81289843
>he should have been the spiritual ideal of power and justice that the others strove to be like
His arc throughout the movie is achieving that. He didn't arrive as the fully-formed Superman from the comics, he arrives in our world and doesn't know how to deal with it despite having pure intentions. People do look up to him in the movie (Momma Kent says he's all the hope some peole have) but purely as a saviour, which is blatantly laid out in the Day of the Dead scene where people are essentially worshipping him. Then he realizes what he has to do and sacrifices himself to become a true source of inspiration. At the end Bruce says he doesn't want to fail Superman in death and that people can be good, it's actually an uplifting conclusion that despite all the misery in the world there is a way forward. And of course, all that is reinforced with the religious imagery, which some people thought was only there for the sake of it.
>>81290177
It shows his motivation, you're not really meant to agree with his philosophy.
>>81293221
>Isn't that the point? It's everyone's reaction to him that causes shit, Superman can't help being here and has the best of intentions.
Well sure but why not have the biggest problems coming from things actually outside of people hating him for various reasons?
Him mostly doing literal damage control on people just trying to fuck him up doesn't seem that... heroic, or interesting even.
>>81284097
>The theme seemed to be that a hero and messia-like figure like Superman wouldn't fit in today's world, some see him as a saviour but there's too much cynicism and wariness for most to accept him. It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical, which I found very clever. The courtroom scene illustrated it perfectly: thinking a god is subservient to civil laws.
Nigga you might want to familiarize yourself with the story of Jesus. That shit was written more than two thousand years ago. BvS didn't add anything new to the topic.
>>81290193
The fucking Bat is an insane murderer with mommy issues.
It was okay, and it doesn't deserve the harsh reviews.
Story was shit, but even so there were good things in the movie
>>81293271
Well I found it a very interesting take on heroism. The flipped painting is important because angels needs to struggle upwards, Superman has been buried and will rise up. I got the impression that this Superman is very noble and not the angsty guy people seem to be seeing him as, he's not angry at the world, he's dissapointed in himself and thinks he's not good enough, "Superman never existed". He's struggled and has managed to inspire people.
I prefer this arc to seeing the Superman we all know off the bat, but I can understand that if you love the character you can be pissed off by this subversion of him.
>>81293327
It didn't add anthing new about Jesus, but it applied it to a story about how we view a pop-culture icon like Superman. It's still shlock, but interesting shlock.
>>81293392
Honestly the thing I mind most with Supes is he doesn't interact and bond with people beyond Lois and, well, ultimately Batman but it's almost accidental.
I'm not pissed off, I'm not even a big Supes fan, I just think they fail to humanize him and make him properly connected with the world and the people in it and that's just doing him wrong.
I mean we'll see what the next movies but I'm not sure this 4 hour struggle to bring that was worth it, or even that well done, even if understand why you would want to subvert the general Superman idea normies have. The concept is not as wrong as the execution.
>>81293457
You've got a good point there. I thought the movie got across Superman's sense of moral duty to people pretty well, but he did seem distant. We his discomfort at being worshipped by some and rejected by others, when really he just wants to be a good example. For me that got the point across just fine, but yeah, maybe it was too indirect and he should have interacted more with the world.
>>81293359
After yearly ten years of Marvel films, it's just different. A lot of people, RLM included, use the "Movies should be fun" excuse. I'm not a huge comic fan myself but I used to read Batman when I was a kid and I really enjoyed Justice League/JLU and I felt like I could make sense of the movie just a bit better. Like when the 'Martha' thing came up. When Batman fought his Justice Lord counterpart bringing up his parents caused him to surrender. It's like they were too busy listening to Rich's forced laugh than watching the movie itself.
Not perfect but I really enjoyed it.
>>81293392
>It didn't add anthing new about Jesus, but it applied it to a story about how we view a pop-culture icon like Superman. It's still shlock, but interesting shlock.
What's the point of all this though? Just to say "it's not 1938 anymore"? Well, duh! I'll agree that the movie has a lot of neat ideas, and themes, and symbolism but nothing is explored in any meaningful way. There's nothing at the core of it except for a desire to make Batman fight Superman on a big screen. They built this giant artistic shell around basically nothing, vulgar commercialism. Man of Steel had the same exact problem. They're not horrible movies, I didn't hate them but I never want to watch them again despite them having all those metaphors. Analyzing them feels like a complete waste of time because there is nothing underneath of all those Jesus allegories, and mythology allusions, and horse symbolism. It's all empty, it's all hollow. Marvel movies are very simple at the core, they're movies for children. They're about working together as a team to overcome obstacles or learning that even the weakest man can make the difference if he has courage. Not saying that all movies should be like that but give me something for crying out loud.
>>81293761
>Analyzing them feels like a complete waste of time because there is nothing underneath of all those Jesus allegories
I thought I laid it out clearly, the Jesus allegories have a purpose. In a nutshell they represent our attitudes towards morality and religion, and tie that in with our attitudes towards Superman as a pop culture symbol.
I'm analyzing it because I felt the movie has a lot to analyze. The novelty of a film called Batman v Superman having these themes caught me totally off-guard and made me interested despite being joe shmoe who doesn't care about Superman. I'm not saying the film's amazing, but it's very interesting to me.
>>81284097
>This delusional faggot.
>>81293392
Exact same thoughts.
Superman and Batman are both broken heroes trying to rise again. That's the whole point of the intro video: Bruce witnessing loss and the running away from it and falling into a pit, only to later rise towards the light again. That intro is a foreshadowing of both heroes' arcs.
Despite this movie being terrible, I still kinda liked it because it unintentionally showed why Batman is evil and Superman is useless.
>>81294128
This is so true. Everytime one of these faggots try to do something, people die. So God damn it, just retire already.
>>81290512
>atrocious editing, transitions,
every time someone brings this shit up, I can't take it seriously. What does this even fucking mean? It sounds like you're just parroting. Why not throw in "pacing" issues, too? That's a popular word, and it really makes it seem like you're critiquing the film on a higher level than most.
>>81284097
Great film. I like how it flies over the heads of stupid people.
This film took a complete shit on Superman
Everyone hates him
Even when he does good things people still hate him
Bomb kills many people because he wasn't looking
Loses the fight against Batman
Gets nuked and dies
Beats Doomsday and dies
The only time we see people actually appreciate him was when he saved a girl in Mexico.
>>81296524
>everyone hates him
Yeah that's why they build him that monument and threw that lavish state funeral.
>>81289117
>his mind is not in the same world we live in. He's the bastion of childlike imagination in our world.
Yes, the alien kryptonian is the epitome of human childlike imagination, not the man-child dressing like a bat because his mentality and reasoning is literally stuck at the 10 year old level.
>>81284097
I can't understand how anyone can hate man of steel and then like this.
>>81286242
>Batman is the Ubermench
really anon?
>>81294128
This whole thing is just Watchmen all over again.
>>81284097
The movie presents a teenager's idea of intelligence and maturity. And you praise that?
>>81288711
>So it's like Kingdom Come, except stupid?
>Kingdom Come
>Not stupid
I mean sure he apologized at the end but he didn't even let himself be judged for almost murdering the UN
>>81284097
>I loved it, despite disliking Man of Steel and superhero films in general.
Well. I hated it, despite liking Man of Steel and superhero films in general.
It was everything bad about Man of Steel, but this time it was only that.
>>81284097
>>81287347
>It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical
>This also applies to Superman as a cultural icon; it's uncertain whether Superman is unpopular because he's unapplicable and obsolete in modern pop culture or because capefags are too casual and swept up in the Marvel monopoly to fully appreciate him.
MAYBE people would like him if he smilled on his own fucking movie. Or of he wasn't cold and distant, unlike all the other representations. Or if he didn't identified with kryptonians instead of humans for most of the time. Or if the movie didn't deliberatly made his parent figures try to remove his autruistic tendencies at every moment, just to nail the "you are distant of humans" narrative.
This movie doesn't question Superman on today's society because Sniderman rarelly feels like Superman but like Mr. Manhatan.
And if he has? What is the point of studing "today reaction to Supes" if you make the character and the cast completely different to fit your narrative?
It question Sniderman view of godmen, the same guy that killed Jimmy Olsen at the start just for shock value. That scene alone shows that Snider has no grasp of the mythos.
Its a good theme, but terrible in execution
>>81297214
I'm not going to argue that Kingdom Come wasn't stupid in some aspects, like notably the "Oh yeah 90s? Get off my lawn!" message, But even that was both more subtle and stairghtforward than Snyder's stuff. In other words similar concept just better execution.
>>81284097
>It seemed to be ambiguous about whether Superman is the wrong hero for today or if it's the fault of society for being too hubristic and cynical, which I found very clever.
It all fell flat, because they did a truly terrible job at presenting either of Superman or Batman as respectable and heroic figures.
The movie brought up past heroics in passing, but always immediately followed it up with heavy criticism with a focus on fear and dangers. For both Superman and Batman.
Even the little montage of Superman saving people in the first quarter of the film, was narrated with heavy criticism condemning Superman with fears of what he might do.
You saw the memorial supposedly in Superman's honour and in gratitude for what his deeds and heroics, but you never actually saw people being thankful or happy about Superman. Even when we saw a glimpse of a Superman fan, it was portrayed as a fanatic with the anti-alien crowd taking all the focus.
Same with Batman. His methods and end results are repeatedly put into question. And Batman has like the highest bodycount of the movie, killing criminals left and right. And with his methods and result put into question they even paint the police force working with him in a bad light. Everyone fears him and yet again no one is seen to respect or be happy about him. Fuck, he messed with that one police officer's head so much in the beginning that he almost shot his buddy.
We know from outside knowledge of the source material and cultural heritage, that Superman and Batman are heroes. But while the movie does briefly mention heroics in passing, it does such a terrible job at presenting either of them as respectable that you really wonder why Superman has monuments after him, or why the Police force even works with Batman. Supposedly people like them, but the movie does a piss poor job at justifying why.
It fails to establish a contrast. It is so incredibly one sided that the legitimate criticism of them both falls flat.
>>81298027
>>81298081
Snyder is objectivist trash so of course he hates Superman being the embodiment of altruism he's been for the last 60+ fucking years.
Much easier for Snyder to hammer us all over the head with "BLEEEAH YOU'RE A GOD THEREFORE YOU'RE A THREAT AND I MUST DESTROY YOU" extinction-level fedora tipping for 2 1/2 hours
I gotta be honest. I loved the Batman vs Superman fight. It was really intense and really well done. Great shots and pacing and editing. From a technical standpoint it was pretty much flawless.
But why the fuck would Bruce decide to use those fucking tiny gas grenades for the kryptonite? Why not kryptonite brass knuckles? Or spraying it on his armor, covering it in a thin layer of that stuff? Or why not rig the bat plane with a launcher and let it hover a couple miles above and away from you and then activate it which would make it shoot a big kryptonite grenade at your location, exploding 20 feet above your head covering the entire area in kryponite dust/gas?
But aside from that I loved the fight.
>>81284097
Memes aside, Max Landis did way better all of this on American Alien.
If the pa Kent of the movie was like the one from the comic, we would have memes until this day and age over how based of a dad he was.
>>81298640
>Great shots and pacing and editing. From a technical standpoint it was pretty much flawless.
I liked it too. But it had far too many rapid cuts. The longer cuts of Man of Steel's action scenes were much better.
