Anyone feeling kinda let down by Rebirth?
I mean Johns got us hyped up with this grand philosophy of taking all that came before and growing forward based on a book's core. It was great the same include and transcend style that got us Green Lantern and Batman back in the Archiect age.
But I see these announcements and it doesnt seem to follow through. Its mostly just some new titles with mostly new creative teams, Where is the include and transcend, where is the getting to the point and making it a line?
It really feels more like a nameslap to the new wave rather than a real creative statement, which is a shame Sinestro Corps War, Batman Inc, 52...these were some great books built upon what dc has forged that took it to new levels. Rebirth just feels...off.
>>81198443
I think you're just one of those people with impossible expectations who will never be 100% satisfied by anything in life.
>>81198575
This. OP you're a faggot.
>>81198443
I actually don't understand what the point of rebirth to be honest.
>>81198575
>>81198602
What's the creative statement of Rebirth then? Why is it necessary if they are just continuing down the path that they have admitted is not working? How the fuck is it a good idea to revert back to number ones again after five years, but only for some titles? Where is the commitment to honoring DC's legacy that was promised?
>>81198660
People bitched about no legacies like the Titans, Ted, etc and DCYou flopped, so they're giving people what they want while relaunching for a quick buck.
It's basically the New 52 still with just a fresh coat of paint. They did hype it up where it felt like they were going to do a lot more bigger, sweeping changes, like here is the JSA back in their full glory, but it wasn't really like that.
Though they still don't seem to know what to do with the Superman line. It seems like they are just throwing out whatever and hoping something sticks.
>>81198674
>Where is the commitment to honoring DC's legacy that was promised?
There are multiple books that fulfill this promise dude. Even if you aren't happy with them.
This seems to be the entire point of bringing back Blue Beetle, the current pitch for Detective Comics, Super Sons, and Kid Flash.
>>81198718
>bringing back Blue Beetle
Why was he gone? How is bringing him back a return to legacy? Didn't Ted Kord already appear in the New 52? How is shuffling around mishandled Bat Family characters honoring legacy? Where are the actual legacy characters that existed pre-Flashpoint?
Nope not at all. Actually the creative teams and everything that DC pulling out now, sounds far more interesting, in comparison to Marvel's Bendis's crap.
>>81198674
>>81198674
>Titans
>Teen Titans
>Blue Beetle
>Supersons
>'Tec
>Helena B being Huntress again over Helena W
>Dick being Nightwing again
That's 7 out of 32 titles dedicated to legacy or giving people what they've been bitching about for a while.
It's exactly what I expected and I'm mostly excited. Only the Superbook and GL announcements kind of let me down.
Also having 2.99 all the books it's a great move from DC, instead of paying 3.99 or more at Marvel, for reading their fat pig's BS stories.
>>81198694
Fans wanted omega man to stay and they did, but the sells got worse than before.
So when will dc stop listening to these people?
http://www.newsarama.com/28578-dc-comics-rebirth-recap.html
>"DC Chief Creative Officer and the architect of Rebirth Geoff Johns also confirmed that the Legion of Super-Heroes, JSA, New Gods, and Shazam would all have a place in the post-Rebirth universe, but that each of these properties warranted a major story to herald their return, and needed room to breathe and not get lost among today's announcements. As for pre-Rebirth titles, several, including the previously announced Gotham Academy and Earth 2, will simply be continuations of their previous incarnations, and weren't considered Rebirth properties."
>>81198930
No but trust me, if they went back to pre-Flashpoint, sales would be higher than ever, even though sales were really low then.
>>81198575
>>81198602
I wasnt talking avout quality but they really hinged this whole thing on the Rebirth concept and almost no books seem to use it.
It was pitched as a bold new creative atmisohere what we got was... new runs
>>81198807
Oh and Green Lanterns kinda, if you count GL as a legacy. They're going back to them being more like cops.
>>81198807
Teen Titans have a comic that is coming out currently. Titans have a comic that is coming out currently. Ted Kord has been promised and appeared in Justice League. Detective Comics is nothing unique and seems like a containment title for the characters they have no idea what to do with. Dick being Nightwing again is more of a regression of the character than Grayson was. As far as I can tell Huntress is still a different character than she was. The only truly unique thing involving legacy is Superman's new son, and even that stems from a title that undermined their entire creative vision from the past five years.
>>81198971
Johns needs to be on JSA, LoSH, or Shazam
>>81198971
How can you trust anything Johns says at this point?
>>81199116
Wow you are really pedantic.
No wonder nobody likes comic fans.
>>81199161
Johns BSs about his titles, but he's speaking for DC over here.
>>81199090
Yeah nothing screams legacy like eschewing the literally thousands of characters in the Corps for two new Lanterns that were so superfluous and boring that they were forgotten immediately after they were created by everyone except the person who create them.
>>81198443
Or you're butthurt because muh Wally isn't announced.
>>81199185
Pedantic how? You are claiming that these titles somehow are bringing back a commitment to legacy and what fans want when there is nothing to back that up.
>>81199050
bwahahahaah dude, quick bump at best>>81198807
Wait whats with Tec
And you guys keeo missing the point, a Rebirth isbt just spamming legeacy heroes , its a deliberate design of a concept to isolate its core values, and assemble all its past narrative reasources around that armature.
Look at Green Lantern Rebirth, Seven Soldiers, Batman and Robin. Batman Inc,Miller's Batgirl,Waid's Legion of Superheroes, Legion of Three Worlds, 52 or The Sinestro Corps War.
THATS a rebirth, breaking down everything that a concept is, aligning everything that came before into that, and growing it from there.
None of the books have presented them as such.
And its messed up because Johns himself wanted to make sure that this wasnt just a nameslap, but its looking exactly like a nameslap.
>>81199116
Ted and Jaime teaming up is definitely a point toward legacy though. The BB legacy was destroyed in the new 52.
>>81199193
Best case scenario, if those titles are happening, the priority is still obviously publicity and sales over honoring those properties. If they were so important why would they be announced in an interview that is tangential to their big rebranding?
I'm kinda underwhelmed. King on Batman is great and so is Rucka on Wonder Woman but everyone else is kinda mediocre and inexperienced.
>>81199224
I really dislike the guys ranting about Wally dude.
>>81199339
Jaime never even knew Ted pre new 52, what the fuck are you talking about?
>>81199339
So were a number of way more important legacies. And they are being ignored.
>>81199224
>>81199401
Yeah, fuck the people who enjoyed reading a character who held the mantle for two decades and arguably had the best stories The Flash had ever seen. How dare they enjoy good characters and good comics.
>>81199436
Jaime's old title was all about living up to Dan and Ted's legacies, while forging ahead with his own identity. The nu52 severed those ties right out the gate, and Jaime never recovered. No one knew what to do with him.
>>81199340
>>81199340
Obviously the priority is sales. The priority is always sales. They're a corporation. All the stuff about legacy is shit they'll try to do, sure, but at the end of the day it's mostly just a bone they're throwing to nostalgiafags. Reburth is basically them doing the opposite of DCYou, cause that failed: Focusing on core characters, instead of adventurous ones, and relaunching to make sure they get attention. And looking at sales percentages, and the general perception of DC, I can't really blame them.
>>81199443
I don't really care about the larger argument, it just seems dumb to suggest BB isn't a return to legacy when it's probably the most obviously one.
>>81199611
So why be excited at all? There's no creative shift happening and they are still nakedly trying to inflate sales with marketing gimmicks.
>>81199726
Actually, now that I think about it, Jaime had a new 52 title too. So once again, this has nothing to do with restoring a legacy.
>>81199340
He just said that they'd have a place in the universe, not that they'd have a book centering around them. That's not a big announcement. They didn't require some big public announcement when they brought back PC Supes and Titans.
>>81199908
Because those characters directly undermined their previously established "creative vision".
>>81199794
It's turning a character who was rebooted into a solo back into a legacy, it is definitely restoring a legacy.
You seem to think legacy only means the specific continuity involved rather than general expectation and relationships so maybe I'm wasting my time now.
>>81199751
Because I care about creators, not continuity or (most) characters. So Rucka, King, Orlando, Priest, Seeley, Snyder without Joker, Giffen, maybe Williamson, and Mann/apul art all have me excited.
>>81199436
Didn't they meet briefly in Johns's Booster Gold run?
>>81199541
There is a difference between liking him and becoming raving HEAT tier mad men
>>81198971
>Legion of Super-Heroes, JSA
Hell yes.
>each of these properties warranted a major story to herald their return
HELL yes.
Still not in on the Cereal Lord meme, but damn Geoff, you made me happy with this.
>>81198971
How would you tie JSA, Shazam!, and the New Gods together in a major story while retaining the concept of rebirth as well as honoring their legacies?
>>81200053
It's not restoring a legacy if we are still in a fucked up continuation of a universe that ignored the characters' previous relationship and will undoubtedly gloss over the fact that they existed in a completely different state less than five years ago.
>>81198443
It's a bunch of the same talent shuffled around on a largely similar line with a few half decent surprises (Rucka WW, Jaime coming back).
The interesting thing to me about Rebirth is the explicit level of interaction Geoff Johns seems to be having with each book.
We've basically reached the point that his level of involvement has made him essentially the EIC for DC going forward. That's pretty exciting and I fully expect that to be reflected in the books.
The way EVS tells it, Johns is basically co-piloting the Green Lantern books right now, even if he doesn't have a writing credit.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/28/green-lantern-has-shrunk-ethan-van-sciver-on-making-it-big-again-dcrebirth/
>>81200301
The character has been shat on or ignored for 10 straight years. HEAT was bad but it wasn't this consistent, almost sadistic putdown that DC's done to anyone who likes Wally.
Like, Black Wally is 10x worse than HEAT. They tried to replace a major fan loved character with a racist diversity fill in.
>>81200520
I guess we'll just have to disagree then because that's exactly the sort of thing I expect and what I consider a fix.
>>81200264
That's a nice thought, but creators mean absolutely fuck all if the state of the company is still in shambles. Remember all of the all-star talent that DC drove away in less than a few years at the start of the New 52? Also, the fact that the most critically acclaimed titles of the past few years were largely unceremoniously cancelled due to low sales and the flagship characters have been repeatedly floundering (I guess you could argue for Snyder not being terrible but I think it is) should give you pause.
>>81198971
>As for pre-Rebirth titles, several, including the previously announced Gotham Academy and Earth 2, will simply be continuations of their previous incarnations, and weren't considered Rebirth properties."
I wonder if Dr. Fate and Constantine Hellblazer are still running? They got #13 issues and didn't get FINAL ISSUES the way a bunch of other books did in today's solicits.
>>81200677
Give it a rest dude.
>>81200708
I doubt it with their sales and Constantine the hellblazer will end when Hellblazer starts.
>>81200701
>the fact that the most critically acclaimed titles of the past few years were largely unceremoniously cancelled due to low sales
What the fuck are you talking about? Lots of critically acclaimed DC titles that sold like shit lasted way longer than they should have. Do you really think I, Vampire could've lasted 20 issues at Marvel? Or how about All-Star Western? Demon Knights? Frankenstein? Sword of Sorcery? All those war comics? Omega fucking Men?
>>81200410
>EACH of these properties warranted a major story to herald their return
Pay attention to words, anon.
>dedication to legacy
>hand coming out of lightning
>major revelation in Titans Hunt that is relevant to Rebirth
>both Titans Rebirth and Flash Rebirth have a big fat READ THE SPECIAL FIRST warning in the solicit
WALLY
A
L
L
Y
>>81200797
It's going to be the same series but with a different title
>>81200821
Twenty issues is now the benchmark for giving something a chance? Where are the Demon Knights now? Where is Jonah Hex? Where is Amythest? Frankenstein? Omega Men? We should be applauding the fact that they threw shit against the wall and then scraped off the stuff that actually worked well so they could throw more shit on top of it?
>>81200793
I'm actually a different dude than the dude you were talking to, dude. I just chimed in to point out how HEAT and the Wally situation are too different.
>>81200701
>the fact that the most critically acclaimed titles of the past few years were largely unceremoniously cancelled due to low sales and the flagship characters have been repeatedly floundering
But that's the point of this creative team shuffle. Take the acclaimed writers and put them on bigger properties.
>>81201148
>Twenty issues is now the benchmark for giving something a chance?
In this market, yes. Anything more than 6 issues is a blessing, and things get cancelled before even that much.
>>81201148
OK, now I know you're goddamn delusional. THEY GAVE THOSE BOOKS A FUCKING CHANCE YOU THICK FUCK
What, do you want them to publish 50 issues of I, Vampire that sell like shit while their company goes to hell? Goddamn, now you've gone and made me mad, you fucking imbecile. I can't believe you're able to use a computer, let alone read and write.
>>81201148
>Twenty issues is now the benchmark for giving something a chance?
Considering the state of the industry over the last few years, 20 issues is VERY generous these days. DCYou could barely sustain 12 issues.
>>81201148
>twenty issues is now the benchmark
Considering the sales of a lot of those books? Yeah, twenty issues is damned good. Remember, the Big 2 are companies first, artistic outlets second.
>>81201148
20 issues is more than 6 or 12, which is what so much more don't get
>>81201220
Once again they are prioritizing sales over good comics over the protests of people who actually enjoy quality creators and their creations. It's editorial meddling that further solidifies the fact that quality comics take a back seat to the bottom line every time, which is a depressing way of running a creative business and has repeatedly shown to not work.
>>81201148
I wish Frankenstein was still around but Lemire was clearly writing all of those scripts in some kind of drunk coma.
>>81200999
you know full well they'll bring back wally only to have him say blackwally is faster and has a better costume before fucking off to never be seen again.
>>81201389
I never got the love for nu52 Frankie. The whole series was humdrum, and Frankie himself felt like an old curmudgeon, rather than world weary warrior.
>>81201359
Okay, one, it's not a creative business, it's a corporation. If you're looking for a dedication to art, no matter the sales go to, fuck, maybe Fantagraphics or D&Q? Pretty sure they still have bottom lines.
And any creator worth their salt can put out good work on a big title, unless the editor is really shit. (And the Batbooks, at least, have a good editor).
>>81200701
>Remember all of the all-star talent that DC drove away in less than a few years at the start of the New 52
No? Most of the books were fucking hideous from the get-go and were just reshuffling a lot of DC's garbage talent from the previous slate of books. No one who was sensible was gettig excited for Judd Winick books. Most of the books that actually were good ended up going on for a while.
>>81201148
>Where is Amethyst?
On my self and in my heart. Read both this and the OG series. Now I'm sad.
At least she was in Future's End? ... Yeah, Amy's done. Dammit.
>>81201288
The company is already going to hell, or has been there for a while depending on how you look at it. The fact that you are defending business practices over creative decisions as if sales are everything shows that you are the delusional one. If you're caring about how much money DC is making as opposed to the content they are putting out then you are not much of a comics fan.
>>81201469
*sales, go to
>>81201359
are they though? The good writers will be writing good comics no matter what. They haven't fired any of the good writers, just moved them to higher-profile books, and that's great for guys like King who are great writers but don't have widespread name recognition yet
>>81201468
One of the biggest problems with it was that Lemire only focused on Frank and everyone else was background noise at best. It was very disappointing because it could have been a really great book.
>>81200701
what all-star talent did they drive away
>>81201499
If you think DC is the company to look to for dedication to art, then you're not much of a conics fan.
>>81201359
>Once again they are prioritizing sales over good comics
Are you fucking stupid? Even with DCYou, the prioritization was always sales. They simply thought the manner in which they were releasing books would lead to bigger sales than their previous methods.
>>81201438
Black Wally is being put in Wally's costume, tho.
and it looks like shit because, go figure, he's black and has short hair and the costume was designed for a white dude with longer, wavy red hair.
>>81200701
>All star talent
>>81201499
how is giving all those critically acclaimed DCYou titles that did poorly in sales a full twelve issues in a market where new series are lucky to get 6 issues not giving them a chance?
>>81201611
I actually kinda like it. Yellow on black looks good. That said, I want OG Wally back too, but I want him in a Flash costume.
>>81201469
What is this mentality? Do you actually enjoy reading comics or just following DC's stock? How can you call a company whose whole creation and purpose is making art a corporation first? Especially since their business practices have been prioritizing the bottom line over creative focus and it has been repeatedly shown to not have been working for them.
>>81200701
You could make a point about flagship characters floundering, but how is cancelling acclaimed titles DC's fault? Do you expect them to keep books that sell 10K for 40 issues?
>>81201665
>How can you call a company whose whole creation and purpose is making art a corporation first?
lmao they're superhero comics you unbelievable blowhard
>>81198443
All it ever is is hype, you'd have to be crazy to buy any of it. First rule of comics is expect nothing until you see the creative teams, and even then still expect nothing.
>>81201494
DCYou was the perfect chance to bring her back.
>>81198807
Helena B isn't Huntress, though. Helena B died with her parents and a super spy is using her name as an alias.
>>81201072
It's not. The creative team, including that great artist, is out. It's starting back from #1.
>>81201665
Ahahahahahaaaaaa
Sorry, but what you said is fucking crazy. DC's purpose is not making art. It is making money. If I want art, I read Delisle, or Moebius, or Ware, or Pekar. I read DC because they still have solid creators, capeshit is fun, and there can be some really amazing stuff once in a while. But I don't expect them to be more than a corporation.
>>81201665
Hey dude. You know that period of DC that you really liked? That time you cradle in your heart and fuels your bitter resentment for the current state of affairs at DC?
They were putting the bottom line over creative focus then too.
>>81201657
If you think that open cowl look is good with flat black hair then you've got shit taste, mate. Even Booth realized how bad it looked.
>>81201499
Wow, you really are an idiot.
>>81201564
>>81201639
Morrison off monthlies
George Perez
James Robinson
JH Williams
I'm sure there's more that's off the top of my head.
>>81198785
>not knowing why Blue Beetle was gone
Neck yourself
>>81201898
The open cowl isn't great, but I can live with it, and I like the face, and the body is pretty much the same no matter the skin color.
>>81200410
Billy just got Darkseid's dad as part of his pantheon in Darkseid War senpai
>>81201943
>Morrison off monthlies
I don't think that had anything to do with DC specifially, I think that was more of a personal choice Grant made that he happened to make at the same time.
>>81201943
Robinson sucks now
Perez fell off
Morrison will still be writing
>>81202022
Well, that was easy.
>>81201943
Perez's Superman was horrendous, and Morrison's still doing a lot of work for them even if it's not in monthlies (and that may not even be directly tied to New 52)
true life on Robinson and Williams though
>>81201665
the purpose of a company is to increase owner's equity
this is literally the first thing they teach you in any business-related class ever
>>81201943
Morrison off monthlies has little o do with being driven away, and Robinson is too much of mixed bag to be called all-star. I'll concede Williams. I dunno about Perez, maybe he wrote some great New 52 stuff, but I read his Superman and it was mediocre.
>>81202081
he's pretty OP now
>>81201943
>Morrison off monthlies
Morrison was headed that way regardless. Batman Inc was to be his final monthly work, with him focusing more on one-shots, minis, and OGNs in the future.
>>81201729
>>81201811
>>81201827
>>81201933
You guys are what's wrong with the comics industry. Keep perpetuating the false notion that superhero comics can't be art due to some inane arbitrary reasons and appealing to the notion that the only thing that matters in this medium is how many books you sell. It's blatantly obvious that in recent times all creative industries are apathetic about creating anything of value and substance as long as it sells and we are all suffering as a consequence. Keep fighting that good fight for the almighty dollar, you are doing wonders for comics and creativity in general.
>>81202137
Wait, wasn't H'ronmeer the Martian name for Dream of the Endless?
>>81201982
The open cowl is literally the whole point of the Kid Flash design. That's why it's so bare bones. The entire point was to contrast Flash's more adult, cleaner cut appearance with the wild haired kid riding by his side.
Infantino got it. That's what made Flash so damn popular in the first place and launched the Silver Age. It's startling how little the people working on the comics understand about comics. You gotta tell a story with the art.
>>81202137
Wasn't he always? I mean, isn't he technically stronger than Superman since he's magic?
>>81202191
yes
>>81202182
no one is saying superhero comics can't be art, they're just saying don't blame DC for thinking of the bottom line, even though they give comics with poor sales pretty long print runs compared to other companies
>>81202027
>>81202094
>>81202105
>>81202138
Does Morrison have anything lined up for DC after WW Earth One?
>>81202272
Multiversity Too and Batman Black and White.
>>81202272
Multiversity Too and Batman Black And Whiteand maybe Seaguy Eternal
>>81202272
Multiversity Too (Flash story) and Batman Black and White. And probably whatever else he might want to do.
And if you count Vertigo, with Stewart not on a DC ongoing I'm hoping Seaguy 3 is coming.
>>81202272
If WW E1 sells well I wonder if he'll do a volume two.
ACTION COMICS #957
Written by DAN JURGENS
Art by PATRICK ZIRCHER
Cover by MIKEL JANIN
Variant cover by RYAN SOOK
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“PATH TO DOOM” Chapter One
Superman returns to Metropolis just in time to meet the city of tomorrow’s newest protector: Lex Luthor. But it’s not long before these dueling titans meet someone unexpected — the new Clark Kent!
DON’T MISS: ACTION COMICS returns to its original numbering with this issue!
On sale JUNE 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
>>81202311
>>81202331
Quit trying to make Seaguy 3 happen. Seaguy 3 is never gonna happen.
>>81202182
I'm not saying capeshit canny be art. Ostrander alone is proof enough that it can be. But expecting that to be the foremost goal of the Big 2 is inane. Why would you expect a major corporation to focus on art over profit? That's literally not why they exist. Maybe if DC collapses so utterly that IDW and Dark Horse are doing better, then maybe they can say fuck it about sales, but as long as they're making revenue, their main goal is to increase that revenue, and if the way to do it is to reduce the quality of the product, then that is what they will do.
>>81202396
It'll come out just after HL3.
>>81198706
JSA and Wally coming back... Not every book was announced at the event. Got some more coming. Wait to read Johns's Rebirth one shot. It'll shed a lot of light on these ideas.
>>81202251
Shouldn't that put Batson at a fucking insane power level? I mean, Superman-tier is one thing, and Endless-tier is a whole other animal.
>>81201943
>Morrison
had nothing to do with the editorial. He wants to do films and tv now.
>Perez
Past his prime
>Robinson
See above
>JH Williams
Agreed with this one
Anyways, n52 is old news. You'e ignoring the quality they brought in with DCYou. It was the best period for them since some time in terms of quality, if not financially.
>>81202396
h-he said it would
https://twitter.com/cameronMstewart/status/518128238087110656
>3 Oct 2014
>>81202396
let me dream, anon
>>81202492
don't forget the source manipulation too
>>81202492
And he still can't beat the Superman Thought Robot.
>>81202517
Uh-huh, and Warren Ellis also said he'd continue Fell.
>>81202492
H'ronmeer is just the Martian god of fire, not all of Dream
The Source manipulation from Yuga Khan is way more OP
>>81202591
>Martian god of fire
Heh.
>>81201665
>How can you call a company whose whole creation and purpose is making art a corporation first?
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
Are you retarded? It's fucking capeshit you incredible dumbass. It's put out because it sells. DC and Marvel care about sales above anything else. If the things that sell a lot happen to be of good quality that is a happy side-benefit.
That is how it's always fucking been, no matter what. Whatever "Golden Era" you think exists in your delusional mind? All they cared about then was making money too.
>>81202573
>>81202591
Oh, damn, right. Jesus Christ.
>>81202517
>>81202591
>after Batgirl
>2016
>>81201176
You have the same attitute as heatfags
>>81202675
Okay, what's HEAT?
>>81202182
Capeshit can be art, but creating art is not the goal of the Big Two and never has been. Increasing sales so they can pay their workers is their goal.
You are a fucking moron for not getting that.
>>81200410
Old Gods vs New Gods vs Fifth World
Fucking done.
>>81202675
Speaking as a Halfag (not a HEATfag), at least we got Parallax, who, while kind of a character fuck-up, was really cool, and Spectre. Wally fans have gotten their fave replaced by an utterly different character who happens to have the same name.
>>81202775
It's literally a company that mass produces art. You are the fucking moron.
>>81201148
YES
>>81202675
The attitude of Wallyfags is "New 52 Wally is garbage and we want old Wally back. Don't you just miss all those great stories?"
The first part's completely different from HEATfags where it was just "FIX IT." The second part, sure, though citing nostalgia is what literally ever Characterfag does. Not really unique to HEAT or Wally fags.
>>81202853
I think there's some definition confusion going on here
>>81202780
>Fifth World
You mean picking back up on the idea that Morrison was putting forth in his Batman run that Bruce was the new Orion?
>>81202775
You're asking why McDonalds doesn't make artisan steak dinners, you idiot.
>>81202888
Yeah the elitists of /co/ have deemed that drawings and stories cannot be art based on their subject matter.
>>81202981
literally no one has said capes can't be art other than you
So old superman is coming back while nu supes is just going to be Clark Kent. That seems to be the only return to legacy if you don't count ollies goatee and night wing in black and blue.
>>81202182
All companies exist prinarily to make money, that is the definition. DC makes money by selling books they try to make good.
,How the hell are they going to make art if they go broke?
>>81203034
Blue Beetle is all about legacyplus Wally
>>81202137
Who are these guys
>>81202920
And you're arguing that we should be happy eating shit that comes in a McDonald's box because that's what we're served.
>>81202853
There's multiple definitions of art idiot. One is the literal definition, colorful pictures designed to amuse children and autistic man children. That's the one the Big Two produce. The other is ised to signify quality work composed not just of art but story and characters as well. That's the one that's secondary to the Big Two.
>>81202878
>>81202911
Superheroes are the New New gods. JSA are the first superheroes,
Old Gods vs New Gods vs New New Gdos
>>81203109
No, we're arguing that if everyone else buys shit in a box instead of a cheeseburgers, of course MDonalds is going to push ShitinaBox and stop selling cheeseburgers.
>>81202878
honestly my biggest problem is nuwally is a kid. christ i think he's younger than Damien!
>>81201794
cross your fingers hoping they do it right this time
>>81203105
I forget who S and the As are, but H'ronmeer is the Martian fire god, Zonuz/Yuga Khan is Darkseid's dad, and Mamaragan is the Shazam Wizard
>>81202733
A really, really forced acronym. It stands for, I shit you not, "Hal's Emerald Advancement Team".
It's what 90's GL fans who were mad about Emerald Twilight called themselves.
>>81203244
Damian's 10, maybe 11 by now.
NuWally's supposed to be a teen, he's just drawn pretty short.
>>81203146
The literal definition of art is colorful pictures designed to amuse children and autistic man children. So Michaelangelo made colorful pictures designed to amuse children and autistic man children. Fuck you, fuck this thread, and fuck this board. Enjoy discussing public relation events and business practices while the medium continues to slowly die.
>>81203272
Ate is from rl myth, I think the other one is too
>>81203403
I thought he was 12?
>>81203410
you're being weirdly thick-headed, anon
>>81203208
And there would be no public outcry because "hey, they're making money who gives a fuck?". Defending the shit serving status quo and money grubbing corporations is a noble task, you are the hero we all need.
>>81203410
I like how you think a change in anything could save the medium from slowly dying.
Maybe fucking comic books just aren't the perfect storytelling medium you think they are and the only reason the industry's still afloat at all in the age of video games and smartphones is because of the people who will blindly follow and support their favorite cape characters?
>>81203534
shit, anon, no one's saying it's a good thing that DC and Marvel focus on money over artistic value, they're just saying they are
>>81203458
He was 10 when he was introduced, the passage of time since then has been completely unspecific.
>>81203534
Understanding something doesn't mean you're defending it. It's just that bitching about it is merely stating the obvious.
Yes is sucks that the comic market is so shit and people don't buy good books, but the companies still need to try to make money at times instead of printing weirder and good shit as a loss. There's only so much one can get mad about it in every thread that features comic news. What exactly do you want people to say at this point? Bottom line is that if you don't like the books coming out don't buy them.
>>81203572
I wouldn't say "not as popular as it used to be" and "dying" are the same thingnot like this print news
>>81203578
And I'm saying they shouldn't and I'm getting my head bitten off.
>>81203672
I don't have figures to back it up but I'd be very surprised if print news is smaller than comics.
>>81203691
You're yelling at the clouds.
>>81203691
Because they always have, and always will. You whining about how you don't like that means capeshit isn't for you. Go read indieshit
>>81203691
How is it a matter of "should" though when there's no realistic alternative? They are doing the only thing that allows them to survive.
>>81203572
>>81203659
You guys are right, I shouldn't voice my opinions about something that matters to me and just let the apathy wash over me until I don't care about being carried away by the massive river of shit that everyone seems to enjoy swimming in. Thanks, you've been really helpful.
>>81203410
>medium continues to slowly die.
Kek the medium has been dead for ages faggot. DC and Marvel are IP farms now for Disney and WB. Also
>Comics
>Anywhere near Michelangelo
Kill yourself my man
>>81203714
but print news is unequivocally dying. Sequential art is literally the oldest form of non-verbal storytelling, and as long as people want to make comics, there will be comics
>>81203410
He said that was ONE definition not the literal one you brain dead retard. He also said there were multiple definitions.
>>81203860
That doesn't mean they'll be selling comics. Big difference. Superheroes are the most mainstream they'll ever be and the industry's still lagging behind.
>>81203691
You're getting your head bitten off because you're stomping your feet like a child and acting like you're the first and only person to come to such conclusions.
>>81203827
literally all anyone is saying is DC and Marvel are not the places to go for comics-as-art
they CAN put out good comics that can be considered good art, but their output is far more focused on sales than artistic value
>>81203672
Looking at sales numbers, comics get more and more "not as popular as it used to be" literally every year. It spikes whenever they fucking reboot something, sure, but then it goes right back down, worse than it was before, every single time.
And all the Indiefags who swear up and down that it's capes holding the medium back, you think if Marvel and DC suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth, Saga would miraculously sell millions of copies a month? Image and Darkhorse would become unimaginable publishing juggernauts with sales way bigger than what Marvel and DC are getting right now?
Books with pictures won't ever go away, but it's shrinking for a reason.
>>81203822
How about learning the basics of the medium and the characters that have been resonating for almost a century and applying creative thinking to your products and how you market them? It's not a mutually exclusive thing but somehow everyone thinks that it has to be.
>>81203827
It's mostly just you're acting like you're trying to open people's eyes or something. As if the rest of us are too stupid to understand the reality of the market.
What's your point man?
>>81203827
If you think voicing your opinion here will change anything you're even more delusional than I thought. You know what sells? Number 1's, big events with explosions, and EVERYTHING WILL BE DIFFERENT EXCEPT WHEN IT WON'T. Omega Men was an amazing comic and so was The Vision. Guess what? They didn't fucking sell, because people don't want that.
>>81203942
to be fair, we only have Diamond's numbers for comic shops. Nothing for bookstores and digital
>>81203991
And because places like this were storytiming them ridding a lot of anons of the need to buy them.
Not the anon you're arguing with and I don't disagree with your point, just adding something to it.
>>81203951
This is a lot of fluff that doesn't say anything that would help them at all.
>>81204037
Speaking personally, I've bought a whole lot of comics based on /co/ storytimes
>>81204037
Let's be honest, people aren't going to buy them even if there were no story times. They'd just read the Wikipedia entry. People just don't read comics anymore, movies, TV shows, and video games sell more than comics ever will.
>>81204092
This.
>>81203109
I didn't say you should be happy. I'm saying you shouldn't be surprised or upset that McDonald's is serving you McDonald's.
>>81203941
By that defintion, no one is, because all art is made by humans with material needs.
>>81204001
False, we get bookscan numbers from bookstores. Last year (and has previous years linked): http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/tilting-at-windmills-bookscan-2015-analysis
>>81204142
>bookstores showing more growth than direct market
>comics are dying
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>>81203928
>>81203959
>>81203991
My point is that it's not that hard to tell halfway decent superhero stories and the current state of DC is infuriating considering the wealth of great stuff throughout their history. My point is that the mentality that the quality of art somehow shouldn't matter because of the medium that it's in is ridiculous. My point is that although voicing my opinion on the Internet is essentially meaningless, apathetically accepting the status quo is the worse option and all you sanctimonious assholes who are so angered by my opinions and eager to stamp them out are directly contributing to the eroding creativity in popular art these days whether you realize it or not.
>>81204211
This is what DC Rebirth is really about, putting trades out faster so that they can benefit from increased bookstore sales.
>>81204211
Floppies have been cancer for a while. Comics need to embrace tpbs/hcs, and similar longer form formats.
>>81204241
You should give Dial H a read. You'd like it.
>>81204258
I've been hollering that that's what DC has been going for since DCYou and their ramping up of OGN production while leaving Marvel to squabble over the failing floppy market
>>81204241
But no one is saying that art (or speaking more largely, quality in general) shouldn't matter, but it's really not the priority when talking about any business. It's always about the money first. People tend to like buying things of better quality, but quality alone doesn't automatically well.
>>81203248
>>81204345
doesn't automatically sell*
Also I don't know what you mean about "accepting the status quo" as if anyone here is saying that you should buy books you don't want just because that's all that's there.
>>81204317
I have, and it's the best most original comic they've put out in the past six years.
>>81198443
Rebirth made me realize I am a massive character fag / Wally fag.
Real Wally back is all I want and I don't have that.
>>81204422
I'll be shocked if he's not back in Titans. It makes too much sense.
>>81204422
There's nothing wrong with being invested in a character. People don't bitch others out for being invested in a TV show (or any other media, like book series or movies) that has multiple writers because they're invested in that character's ongoing story.
There was some shit that made you really like Wally West as a concept because some good writers got a hold of him. Now you want to see more stuff happen to that Wally because, hey, you spent time reading and enjoying it. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's only really a problem when you get shit like "WALLY WAS THE BEST AND THEY SHOULD KILL BARRY AND MAKE THE FLASH ABOUT WALLY INSTEAD" because then you're just inciting fandom wars for no reason. The right thing is to just petition for that character to appear in more shit because you like that character.
The sad part with Wally is he's been on the backburner so long lots of fans just devolved into venom and spite from the mistreatment. So now we got this loud group of Wally fans making his fanbase look cancerous as fuck.
I'm just not a Wally fan. I'm more excited for middle aged supes taking over the superman books. I'll admit I like new supes I'm just ready for the hopeful and confident supes back.
Also I doubt Chinese superman makes it past 8 issues.
>>81204037
That's not how it even works.
>>81204574
>tfw you really want Wally back but acting rabid about it has been tongue in cheek and no one gets it
>>81204422
There's a good chance he's the hand reaching outward and that he's causing the speedforce storm in Flash as a result.
Flash and Titans having spoiler flags really sells it though.
>>81204919
>Also I doubt Chinese superman makes it past 8 issues.
I hope it does well, but you're probably right.
>>81205064
Yeah I'm really excited for that, but I'm scared they will go the "Wally is a villain now because Barry erased his family" route.
>>81205023
Well, sometimes it's hard to tell being glib apart from being stupidly fanatical. Like I said, no one should feel bad about wanting more or better stories about a character they like.
It's why I personally didn't begrudge bringing Barry Allen back form the dead (despite all the harm it did). Some creators wanted to make some Barry Allen stories in the modern day, cool. All the other shit that happened? Not so cool.
>>81205719
>Some creators wanted to make some Barry Allen stories in the modern day, cool.
Even whilst dead he was getting a good whack of stories. He appeared pretty damn frequently in Wally's run and saved his ass against Cobolt Blue as well as in Rogue War.
>>81205769
I mean yeah, he got cameos, but like I said I don't begrudge creators for wanting a legit Barry centric Flash ongoing.
The problem was it shouldn't have been at the cost of every legacy character. Legacy was too important to The Flash. What I was hoping for was we got the Flash Family backup and, eventually, the two titles would swap perspective between whoever the more important Flash member is.
Barry should've been more interested in his family than he was. Like, he literally never even bothered to ask Iris about *their two children who died*. And obviously the Tornado Twins would've come up in the big Flash Family vs Zoom Corps war Johns had planned but it all got scuttled by Rebirth being a financial disappointment.
Shame, really. If only Barry had been MORE popular it might've saved the rest of the Flash family. Feels so weird saying that but it is what it is.
>>81205719
Barry coming back was so much more than that. DiDio didn't listen to anyone and pushed forward for Bart to become Flash (Written by fucking Gugenheim) and when that turned out to be a reviled mess they brought Wally back but DiDio had thought Wally had grown stale, since he hates happy married life stories, and the WB execs were intent on using Barry for movies as they felt he was "most iconic".
And then Johns had to make Barry interesting somehow.
Barry Allen never should have been revived in full. His death carried too much weight. The future Barry popping up from time to time was good enough for him.
>>81206195
Movies weren't even on the radar when Rebirth happened.
Rebirth happened because Johns wanted it to happen. He pitched it at the same time he pitched Green Lantern Rebirth. It just didn't get pushed through because Flash was just coming of his own amazing run and Barry's death was way more important and final feeling than Hal's.
But yeah, then Bart happened. Then they coaxed Waid into coming back, but told him "Yeah we're scrapping this title next year anyhow" and Waid turned in a half assed script and fucking left in spite (the only reason he turned in ANY script was as a favor to his editor who was his friend) because all the shit he was promised to be able to do with The Flash was being thrown away no matter how good it was.
Lots of shit conspired to ruin the Flash family but Rebirth's failure was definitely the worst of it.
>>81205939
>The problem was it shouldn't have been at the cost of every legacy character.
Preach. My favourite 5 Flash characters:
1. Wally West
2. Impulse
3. Eobard Thawne
4. Hunter
5. Linda
None of those characters even exist any more, it's not like they were shelved. And for what? The most dire run in Flash's existence is currently going on.
>>81206400
>Movies weren't even on the radar when Rebirth happened.
Movies are always on the radar. They've been pushing for movies years before the MCU and DCEU came into existence.
>>81206467
isn't Eobard around
>>81206467
Thawne and Wally "exist." atleast they reused their names.
>>81198971
>LoSH Rebirth
H-HERE WE GO!
>>81206539
Not really. The writers didn't realize that Zoom and Prof Zoom were different characters and so sort of merged them.
He has Thawnes name (much like Black!Wally has Wally West as a name) but his character and power set is completely unrecognisable.
>>81206603
There are many people in the world called John Smith. That doesn't make them the same person. They differ by race, personality and lineage.
>>81206703
>That doesn't make them the same person
Suuurrreeee.
>>81206776
Dammit Mob Rule is the exception.
>>81206703
Yeah, but this is Wally West, Nephew of Iris West.
I suppose he technically does have a different Grandfather and his entire maternal side of the family is different but it's comics, it's not like genes actually do anything. He's actually related to Iris this time around instead of her being adopted.
>>81206855
>it's not like genes actually do anything.
They are pretty crucial in Bart Allen's origin. It's how he got his speed. Right now with Iris not being a soul from the future we have to completely redo Bart's origin and we have this Bar Torr garbage.
>>81207009
The entire issue with Barry and Iris not being together has so utterly complicated everything about The Flash. But yeah, I imagine Bar Torr is basically something that spawned from the fact that...Barry and Iris don't have kids, and certainly don't go to the future to have them, so Bart has -- if he ever exists -- has no reason to be a kid from the 30th century.
It's amazing how many things in The Flash just fall apart because of the reboot, yet they still want a Wally West and Bart Allen around. If you wanted these fucking characters around then why'd you erase them? Bleh.
>>81207202
Bart Allen is so heavily tied to events in the last universe that he is too complicated to reboot. I hope we see pre-new52 Impulse make it into this world via rebirth, it's the simplest solution.
I mean, the reason he is sent back into the past is because Wally has the same personality traits does.
>>81207382
The reason he is sent back to Wally is because Iris was from the future and knew Wally gets a sidekick and needed one. It's one of those self fulfilling time loops.
Also because he, you know, had control over the Speed Force which is something Barry never had.
As a batfag I'm super satisfied. Batman and night wing should be good, detective is a good idea even so if tynion blows it someone else cand do it right later and batman beyond is about terry, as it should be. Even lobdells anti trinity idea is kind of intriguing enough for me to hate his stranglehold on Jason a little less
>>81206400
evs was the one who pushed barry
and I hate the meme that Barry was. bland. read the Bates run
>>81207202
Who the fuck cares about him being in the 3000s? Bart is just Barrys natural grandkid from 20XX or whatever, Jesus so wrapped in canon you ignore simple solutions.
>Hey I am from the future, you are my grand pa
fucking done. Even Weisman got that.
>>81207613
I really an miffed Dick is Nightwing back again and not like, the Professor X headmaster of the Robin school, the spy school and the titans
>>81207809
But that was just shock tactics
Was it Alan Moore who called the New 52 "slightly different costumes and #1 issues"? Because that about sums up my feelings with DC and Marvel ATM.
>>81207809
Yes, everyone's seen the interview. EVS is the one who made the final push. Geoff Johns is the one who made the pitch originally. He always wanted to bring Barry back. EVS was pushing for them to green light Geoff's pitch.
EVS is a big ol Barryfag but Johns isn't innocent of what happened. He wanted Rebirth just as much as EVS.
>>81207809
The Bates run was literally "Barry is super bland, let's ruin his life because he's too perfect and maybe people will care."
No one cared. Because Barry was boring, even if you did shitty things to him. Making a boring guy sad doesn't make him interesting.
>>81208299
>Johns
His love for silver age characters is obnoxious. Try reading his Flash and GL runs in parallel. The sucking up is just way too much.
>>81208384
Agreed. The character was losing readers and so they started throwing out massive shocks to try grip people.
>Iris is murdered
>Barry murders
>Barry is guilty
>Iris is a soul from the future and back alive
>>81208539
Well that last bit was prep to give him a happy ending (and appease what little readership they had left that was annoyed) because they were killing him off. But yeah.
I mean the Trial of Barry Allen gets thrown around as seminal Flash reading but it's not good.
>>81208299
source pls?
>>81208418
>Johns hates legacy meme
did no one read his flash or jsa?
>>81207382
>I hope we see pre-new52 Impulse make it into this world via rebirth, it's the simplest solution.
Considering we went out in Flashpoint similar to how Barry did, it really isn't all that difficult to bring Bart back.
>>81208650
I would say it is good, certainly if you have read a lot of silver age Flash as you are somewhat invested in the character. The way it leaves the resolution open ended is a nice touch too. In saying that, it doesn't hold a flame to the best Flash stories.
>>81208720
All of the speedsters could have 'escaped into the speedforce without an anchor to bring them home'.
Best thing about Flash is that retconns and rebirths are easy.
>>81208672
>Johns hates legacy meme
I never said this, rather, his love for Hal/Barry really overshadows everything else in his books and if you try read GL/Flash in parallel it's too rich so to speak.
>>81207809
>>81208192
>>81208384
>>81208539
Wow, lot of oldheads on co
>>81209037
But he wrote a great Wally and he let other GLs shine in SCW and BN.
Johns knoes to check his nostalgia for the sake of a good run. Something deshfags cant do.
>>81208672
It was a video interview in a comic con, new york or san diego or something. This was way back in 2009 so forgive me for not having it saved.
Regardless Johns was super enthusiastic about bringing Barry back. It's silly to think the writer of the story didn't want to do the story and that EVS is the one with the creative control.
>>81208672
Did anyone read his Flash? You mean the book where Barry shows up and saves the day or where he spends all of his time trying to make Wally more like Barry?
ok
>>81209107
>let other GLs shine in SCW and BN.
I dropped it after GL after rebirth, so I can't comment on that.
>he wrote a great Wally
I don't disagree, but the Barry adoration was turned up a lot and it's okay if you are just reading one book at a time. I tried reading GL/Flash together, it was too much. That's all I'm saying.
For what it's worth, Flash: Rogue War is my favourite comic book story ever, and it wouldn't have been possible without Johns rolling in all the silver age rogues, all the bronze age rogues as well as some new faces. The introduction of Thawne and then Barry had me physically beaming whilst I read.
