>"i hate that he used guns it was so out of character"
>"it was good but Batman doesn't kill people, they shouldn't have changed that"
I mean, i don't expect normies to know that there is lots of material to contribute to Batflecks ethics, but really? some scenes in the film were taking straight out of TDKR. i'd say this is the most accurate portrayal of Batman yet.
i need your opinions, /co/
The no killing rule is ridiculous considering how Batman is portrayed as a total pragmatist when it comes to literally everything else.
>>81154972
/co/ doesn't actually read comics so don't expect them to abide anything that conflicts with their own head canon
>>81154972
As you can see, no one died in the page you just posted
>>81155019
mutant's dead. they even decided to botch it in the animated movie.
>>81154972
did he shoot the mutant through the mouth? where's the bullet hole in her?
>>81154972
>>81155043
>Honestly believing Batman kills some random gang member
>Even though 1 issue later a major plot point is he doesn't have the nerve to kill Joker
fucking speed readers.
>>81154972
>normies
Why are you insulting yourself by referring to everyone else as "normal"?
>>81155120
>wanting to be a normie
Kill yourself tripfaggot.
>>81155113
Joker didn't have a baby held at gunpoint. Context, motherfucker! Just because Batman kills under certain circumstances where innocent lives are under direct threat doesn't mean he will murder when there is not absolute need for it.
>>81154972
TDKR is just a single portrayal of Batman, not a universal version of him.
Miller's Batman is, by admission of the author of that very comic, a borderline lunatic who has no business being in a superhero costume at all. TDKR's Batman is something of a deconstruction of Batman who fights for justice because he is an insane person, not because of a drive to ensure no one suffers the way he did.
If you want a Frank Miller character who DOES have business being in a superhero costume, read his Daredevil.
>>81154972
Affleck wasn't a bad Batman.
It was just a bad script and film.
I mean it's a Robert Zemeckis film. You literally knew exactly what you were getting before you paid the tickets, and quality writing wasn't part of it.
>>81154972
I think it falls on the same category Batman 89' was. Unless they explicitly show that they're dead, they're just really really REALLY REALLY badly hurt. Knightmare Sequence fucking sucked though, they didn't even fucking justify him using guns or killing people
>>81155137
I'm serious, though. Why do you use "normie" as a way of referring to people who don't share your interests? It makes you sound fucked-up for having an interest in comics, vidya, etc.
>>81154972
TDKR is an overrated comic book only praised because it was peoples first grimdark superhero story. To think the only thing Zack did about all the complaints about man of steel is to take it up to a fucking eleven and ignore most of the good parts shows just how out of touch he is with the stories he's adapting or how up his own ego he is.
>>81155241
People like being separated from the pack dingus. Counter-culture movements don't pop-up for no reason.
>>81154972
>i'd say this is the most accurate portrayal of Batman yet.
A somewhat meaningless accomplishment since Batman has been written so many ways by so many different writers that practically any personality and portrayal is accurate.
It's like saying a movie about a sunset is accurate when there's two prequels to it, one about a sunrise and one about a midday sun; they're ALL equally accurate portrayals of the sun ya fuckin' idiot.
>>81155159
That would make him Daredevil, though.
>>81155318
Daredevil's actually usually pretty hesitant to kill people too though for his entire comic's history, even when Miller wrote him.
He doesn't really precisely KILL The Hand ninjas himself; they tend to kind of suicide whenever you do anything resembling restraining them or knocking them out to prevent themselves from being captured.
>>81155352
Well, in Man Without Fear he deflected bullet into a guy's head. And in Frank Miller's run he had full intention to kill Bullseye even if it's something he wanted. Only problem: that fucking asshole always survives.
>>81154972
too many comics have been written in the past thirty years about how Batman hates killing to just go against that with no more than a throwaway line.
If Snyder wanted a murdering Batman to resonate with contemporary audiences he should have made a bigger deal about it, done it narrative justice.
No excuses, either put the effort into it or don't make it a thing at all.
>>81155396
>Well, in Man Without Fear he deflected bullet into a guy's head.
That ones dubious; he deflected it but he sort of might not have knocked it there on purpose. Though he likely did because....well Miller.
>>>81155396
>And in Frank Miller's run he had full intention to kill Bullseye even if it's something he wanted.
He never ended up doing it. Or even tried, actually. Saved him from certain death twice in fact.
>surprised that DCEU Bats is a motherfucking monster.
We're talking about a bitter old bruce who saw his one man crusade against crime as pointless. This Batman is seriously jaded, probably because he didn't have a Superbro like Normal bats does.
>>81155500
No, in #181 he let Bullseye fall with full intention by saying "you will never kill again" or something like that.
>>81155236
Except it did. In the Knightmare, batman had become something he hates everything about. He was killing people like it was nothing, and even more, using guns to do it.
>>81155506
and that's lame
so lame that in the comics they invented Tim Drake to drag him out of his emo funk by force
>>81154972
Batman's no kill rule can work if you do it like Nolan did it.
He paid it lip service but basically ignored it for the majority of the trilogy
I like seeing Batman kill though it just shows you how much they make him hold back in the comics.
>>81155113
I'm pretty sure he said he was gonna kill Joker and he fucked him up enough to give him a slow death either way you look at it.
>TDKR is the only portrayal of Batman that matters
>Let's ignore his 75 years of history and entire stories based around his One Rule. If TDKR did it, everything's okay
Batfleck is the one universally praised aspect of the film anyway
>>81155113
as a person who's studying health sciences, this scene hurts.i still love it though
>>81157608
You do realize he didn't actually snap his own neck?
>>81156112
The difference is his character is based on the TDKR version. There's a difference between citing something he did in TDKR as a reference and citing fucking Batman Odyssey or some shit.
>>81154972
He clearly shoots him in the shoulder. I've always wondered why everyone assumed it was meant to kill.
>>81157666
ofc. i was referring to the fact that batman breaks his neck 'only enough to paralyze him,' which is both kind of unbelievable (since spinal fractures are pretty unpredictable) and contradicts what happens only a few panels later.
if he did BREAK joker's neck, i don't really know what the latter could have done to further the injury to where it would kill him. maybe batman broke one of his cervical vertebrae to where it was sharp enough to penetrate the spinal cord, and then joker turning his head severed it? but then he wouldn't have been paralyzed to begin with. so, there's the contradiction i mentioned.
it just doesn't make sense. but it's still one of my favorite fight sequences in comics so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>>81154972
>>81154972
>So let's see, we have a handful of either very early or out of continuity comics where Batman kills
>And the entire rest of his 77 years bibliography where he has a strong unbendable aversion to killing/using guns
FUCKING NORMIES DON'T READ MY CHERRYPICKED COMICS REEEEEEEEEEEE
>>81155189
And that was Batfleck's interpretation too. The point was, without Superman as his friend/inspiration, Batman goes off the deep end. Which fits pretty well with works like Death in the Family.
>>81158005
What did he see?
Two things to keep in mind:
TDKR is an elseworlds, so it's just one brief interpretation of the character. It's utterly incongruent with the portrayal of the character for the last 75 years (yes, I know he killed a few random thugs in the 40's before mellowing out with the introduction of Robin)
2. The Batman is TDKR is a borderline suicidal nihilistic psychopath living in the end times. Is that really the interpretation DC/WB should be focusing on as the first motherfucking building block of a potential film series?! If they made Dr. No back in the sixties but had Connery play Bond like Craig did in Skyfall (i.e. A beaten down, nerve-wracked agent at the end of his career) where would they have been able to go with the story?
It's called character building. I just watched Batman turn a car full of thugs into a wrecking ball, culminating with him slamming them into another car full of low level thugs immolating both parties in a towering fireball. Then he turned yet another car into Swiss cheese with his bat-mini-guns. What was his heroic goal? He wanted to steal a rock that had been shipped to a company and the private security thugs had the audacity to protect it. Yeah they were criminals up to no good but it's not like they were eating babies, Batman using lethal force is understandable in dire situations but this was just a heist.
>>81154972
>some scenes in the film were taking straight out of TDKR
Doesn't TDKR take place in a what-if scenario after Bruce has retired as a crime fighter? That's the Batman you're going to sorta reference/adapt when getting ready to set up the creation of the Justice League?
>>81158103
He sees a room inside the Joker's head where things are plugged in. Each plug reads something like "Intelligence" and there's another wire that's not plugged in that reads "conscience" which isn't plugged in.
This is where it gets shitty and retarded. While the Spectre is in the Joker's head he sees the Joker. He says "Being in my mind is a 2 way street, while you're in my mind I can get in yours." So the Joker possessed the Spectre and uses his God-like powers to kill thousands. At the end of the comic the Spectre gets his powers back and plugs in the Joker's conscience. The Joker regrets killing all the thousands of people he's killed and I think he wishes to go to Jail.
>>81158198
Jokerwank, the only force stronger in comics than Batwank.
>>81154972
Is this some movie tie-in comic? Layout's pretty lame desu...
>>81158105
Wasn't even a heist. Lex Luthor was smuggling something he owned into the country. Batman not only wanted to steal it for himself but he felt that he had to kill people to get it.
I was wondering why Superman didn't realize that Batman just killed some guys and didn't fight after ripping his Batmobile apart.
>>81158283
Didn't Lex later imply that he let Batman steal with to give him a chance in his "gladiator match"? So all those people died for extra-nothing.
>>81154972
Batman didn't kill anyone in the movie or use guns. No more than Batman TAS did.
>>81158324
I'm not sure but I think so, which fits Lex's character but makes Batman seems even more far gone.
>>81158266
kill yourself
>>81158324
>Didn't Lex later imply that he let Batman steal with to give him a chance in his "gladiator match"? So all those people died for extra-nothing.
Classic Luthor
>>81158354
No need to be so damn hostile because I don't keep track of everything DC does, mate. Anyway, is it good or just a completist thing?
>>81154972
The storytelling's kind of muddled here, which is funny cause it's suppose to be Miller's strongpoint.
I guess it could be a hollywood fleshwound type thing. Although those bullets look like something that would make his shoulder explode.
I read somewhere that when a panel is in grayscale it's Batman's imagination. Like he dreams of killing the punk. But, I haven't read DKR in along time to see if it works.
>>81158283
They were all into human traficking, thought. And they were firing at him with machine guns. It's not as if he was just killing for the sake of it, otherwise he wouldn't have hesitated when he had the chance of shooting kgbeast just when the heist started.
>>81155013
The new killing rule didn't start till issue 33 anyway. Batman originally did kill. But due to the whole censoring of comics/rating, Batman needed to have a change in order to keep younger readers.
>>81154972
>calling people normies
>citing the most normie Batman comic in existence to justify the Batkiller
>>81159190
This meme needs to die. The Comics Code Authority didn't come to be until over a decade after Detective Comics #33.
>>81154972
Ah yes, that's why there's a hole in the wall and not in the thug
>>81157712
It is a damn light machine gun, I wouldn't necessarily expect someone to live.
Yes, from my perspective it's the right call. From the perspective of never killing and never using guns, less so... not to mention that's good shooting holding that thing like a damn pistol.
>>81154972
I've always found that scene to be ambiguous.
Even as a 16-year-old neophyte comics reader, it seemed to me that the bullet hole in the wall and the splatter pattern suggested that Bats got him with a shot in the shoulder or neck.
Shit, pic related is all you needed in BvS- A simple throw-away line like this that suggests Batman still sticks to his I DON'T KILL PEOPLE code, despite the fact that he's mowing down dudes with machine guns.
>>81155279
This is the only correct opinion. There is no one Batman. You can't say Snyder didn't understand the character because all Batman really is is an IP. BvS is Snyder's batman just like there's been a Miller, Dini, Dixon, Morrison, O'Neil, Finger, etc... Batman for the past 75+ years
>>81159282
This is true. The no-kill thing was just editorial mandate to keep it kid friendly
>Snyder took inspiration from TDKR Batman instead of the Batman everyone likes
>Snyder took inspiration from Injustice Supes instead of the Supes everyone likes
>Snyder took inspiration from Riddler/Joker instead of the Lex everyone likes
this was all a smart move
>>81154972
You can clearly see the shot went through the shoulder.
This is the ironic thing, everyone remembers DKR Batman killing people left, right and center - but he actually doesn't kill anyone.
Hurts them extremely badly yes, kills no. Even when he's roiling through the Mutant gang at the scrapyard in a tank he makes a point of mentioning he's using rubber bullets. He cripples the mutant leader, but doesn't kill him.
Snyder has never actually read the fucking comic and neither have you, OP.
>>81160226
>there is no single Batman so every depiction of Batman is ok
no there can be shitty depictions of Batman too
this one was shitty
>>81155236
They didn't have to justify anything for the Knightmare sequence. It's a visual presentation of "the worst possible world," and in that worst possible world, Batman shoots people and snaps necks. It's a dream sequence that's supposed to make you think, "whoa, what the fuck happened that would yield this scenario?" If they were to waste time explaining the context of the dream sequence, it would 1) destroy the main effect of the sequence, and 2) put a story within a story within a story, which would be even harder to follow than it already was.
>>81160335
>>Snyder took inspiration from TDKR Batman instead of the Batman everyone likes
TDKR is one of the most iconic & acclaimed Batman titles though.
>>81155279
>>81160226
I think what he means to say is that this is the first time we've had a live-action Batman that resembled anything out of the comic books. Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan crafted their own ideas of Batman using just what they know of Batman as a character, they didn't draw from any source material. Snyder, on the other hand, practically ripped Batman out of a comic book and put him on-screen.
>>81160417
are you me?
>>81157698
Lol nice strawman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6UDEi8H43M
This should be posted every single goddamn thread.
>>81157954
No, I meant that he really did kill the Joker and he's hallucinating.
Next issue begins with Bruce telling Joker's corpse to stop laughing.
I'm starting to think everyone forgot this exact panel from Dark Knight Returns.
Including the person who wrote it because wow does Frank teeter on whether or not Batman uses guns.
It's about deadly force in the end... Should Batman use lethal tactics on anyone at any point. Which has been a debate point for decades and will never be settled satisfactorily
>>81160494
Except it's chock full of iconogrophy that screams Darkseid, for no other reason than, I'm assuming, to hint at future movies. Same with the weird "Flash from the future" dream sequence; It has absolutely no bearing on the movie at all, and Flash ranting about how important Lois is literally has nothing to do with how the plot plays out. It could have been removed entirely and not only would the movie not lose anything for having done so, it would have made things easier to follow.
>>81160909
Writers have been desperately clawing for reasons to keep Batman above the line of killing his targets, massive sprawling morality plays tied into corporate and public oversight that demands one or the other as time moves forward inexorably.
References and morals become dated, ideals and hopes shift, you're pointlessly driving a theme that must be acceptable to the most people it can, while still staying true to the characters Modus Operandai.
It's impossible and we'll keep arguing about it till we're dead and someone else argues in our place.
>>81158198
Jesus, I thought it was bad when Martian Manhunter couldn't read Joker's mind because he was 2CUHRAYZEE4U.
>>81160963
You're 100% right about the sequences not having anything to do with the movie and being there solely to set up the next movies. That's kind of the fucking point. And if confused you to the point where you decided where you couldn't enjoy the movie anymore, all I can tell you is to read more comics, because they do that shit all the time. Not everything has to be resolved at the end of the 2.5 hour mark, especially when we all know there's going to be more movies.
>>81161208
I see somebody's never heard of Chekhov's Gun
>>81155241
Wanting to be just average AKA "normal" is bad. In order to enjoy a medium properly you have to engage with it more than the average person. It's similar to the word "casual." That's just what I think about the reasoning though.
>>81161025
The thought is ultimately that Batman MUST be above his enemies. His methods, tactics, thinking MUST be morally superior to those he fights. Does it work? No, it can't work, not in the manner in which the character exist... Perpetuity damns him to a pointless crusade.
But only if you willingly perceive it that way.
See that's the thing, continuity and marketing weaken every conclusion where the sinister villain can return and menace innocents because stories with that antagonist are the most entertaining of the bunch.
We want more Batman and Joker stories, so Batman will never truly defeat the Joker.
We don't want Batman to face a brand new menace every month.
You'll say "That's not true" but we've got 70 years of proof that writers and readers want that and will continue to want that.
So just take every story arc, every run, and encapsulate them as single measures and try to be satisfied by the moral imperative that Batman operates under indicates succumbing to the lesser tactics of those he peruses is a loss condition. Batman believes absolutely that he will lose if he simply slays his enemy. That the wheels of justice must turn for all, and that while he may intercede where normal or fractured authority cannot, it must be made to function without him.
Logically, if you were Bruce Wayne, you'd be devoting your intellect, will, and finances to turn the police force into squadrons of Batmen with the training, armor, weapons, and likewise to face these threats.
... But that's not gonna happen. Batman Inc got cancelled after all.
>>81154972
What doesn't make sense is if Batman kills, why does he have a rogues gallery? Shouldn't they all be dead? Especially after Joker killed Robin and there was no Superman to calm Batman down.
>>81160788
oh yeah, i heard that somewhere. because of the different color speech bubbles or whatever. did miller ever officially confirm that or is it just a theory?
>>81155159
sorry what?
>>81155189
I don't think it's proper to loop in DKR Batman with all the post 9/11 Miller Batman. DKR Bats, at his core, seems to have a degree of...wholesomeness that the others don't.
>>81161516
In the scene where Batman breaches the warehouse to rescue Ma Kent, why didn't he just come in guns blazing instead of having a lengthy wire-fu fight? It couldn't be because he was worried the captors would listen and execute Ma, he made just as much noise by fighting them.
>>81162474
If he can disable Joker enough to send him to jail, why not just kill him
>>81161516
We don't know if he has a rogue's gallery anymore. The only ones we know are still alive are the ones in Suicide Squad.
>>81161805
in that situation it would have been ok, not five minutes later when they've homoerotically tussled and the kid is already safe
>>81155159
Your argument actually works more for Two-Face's death in The Dark Knight.
