The ending of this always bothered me. Superman never proved that his non-lethal methods were best, he just proved that he's stronger than the Authority. I expected some sort of moral triumph but we never get it unless we assume might literally makes right
Please storytime it, faggot.
>>81878306
I honestly feel like this was KIND OF Joe Kelly's own attempt at a much smaller scale version of something like 'kingdom come'
Except instead of the gritty heroes of the late 80s early 90s it was in answer to the all too short but burning hot popularity of the authority.
Personally I would like to have seen another swipe taken at the idea when the nu52 hit. With authority now in the dcu they could have easily had the actual ellis/millar style authority overthrowing regimes, killing dictators, crossing borders, doing crazy rockstar violent shit. Then have the JLA having to kinda put a stop to their shit. Have a nice little crossover JLA vs Authority story with competing ideologies and some damn cool fights. Maybe get to see Midnighter completely hand batmans ass to him.
But nope instead we just got that awful nu52 stormwatch.
>>81878537
I want this so badly now. And I want Grant Morrison to write it and I want it to be a giant middle finger to Mark Millar.
>>81878344
Not OP, but your dubs is forcing me to story time it
>>81879073
>>81879091
>>81879105
>>81879121
>>81879137
>>81879148
>>81879162
>>81879121
I love that supermans defense is basically
'but superman is really strong and could do it way more better'.
>>81879177
>>81879196
>>81878537
...you mean they DIDN'T do any of that stuff with the Authority in nu52? Well then what's the point? Wouldn't they WANT to distinguish them from the Justice League even more now that they all co-exist?
>>81879209
>>81879230
>>81879213
I feel like putting Wildstorm in the DCU did nothing to enhance either universe and was only done because Jim Lee is co-publisher.
>>81879213
They did. But they did it by reverting them back to stormwatch. And its basically a bunch of lame versions of the authority with a few changes and their schtick is they fend off alien threats specifically. theyre like what S.W.O.R.D. is to marvel but for DC. An absolute waste.
>>81879248
>>81879326
Manchester Black should be a permanent addition to Superman's serial villains.
>>81879340
>>81879292
>and was only done because Jim Lee is co-publisher.
That's a bingo
>>81879351
>>81879368
>>81879292
Do we know if any of that stuff will still be around post-Rebirth? I can't imagine WB is wringing their hands with anticipation of making Batman v. Grifter.
>>81879384
>>81878537
Goddamnit, man. Too bad DC would never do something this good.
>>81879406
>>81879434
>>81879248
Oh, it's "The Authority". So much for that.
>>81878306
He proves that whoever is the strongest decides what is right, which is true.
>>81879465
>>81879491
That Manchester black dude was cool, they should bring him back. Also Super Man should have fucked the bug lady
>>81879506
>>81879524
Favorite 2 pages
>>81879545
>>81879561
>>81879590
>>81879609
>>81879631
>>81878306
>Superman never proved that his non-lethal methods were best
Yes he did. Manchester didn't want to die, correct? Well, non-lethal methods are the best. What's so hard to understand?
>>81879643
>>81878306
His methods are better because he proved how easy and frightening the Authority's methods of wanton violence would be while his actually inspire something better. Yes it's not easy or 'practical' but it's something he's willing to strive for.
>>81878306
I agree, OP. And what's more, The Authority aren't even represented properly here. Yes, they once drowned an alternate universe's Italy because it was a nationwide rape camp used to breed alien soldiers, but that was war. They never caught a criminal and said "Let's kill his family."
>>81879675
>>81879213
Paul Cornell really shit the bed on Stormwatch and proceeded to shit the bed on Wolverine.
The man went from good writer to really fucking awful in the course of a year.
>>81879693
>>81879389
I know Midnighter will still be around
>>81879725
>>81879747
>>81879646
>>81879680
Yeah but he never actually showed how his methods were more effective in the long run. their whole point is 'you hit em they get back up in 3 months I hit em and they stay down'.
He doesn't actually do anything to change that idea.
I like some aspects of this, the final fight is good and Manchester Black is a pretty charismatic villain giving explanations of their technology that sounds straight from Ellis era Authority.
However as OP said the moral of the story is pretty weak and it's really just webcomic-tier "I am silly" type strawman for "not muh superheroes".
>>81879768
>>81879796
>>81879684
The movie was even worse. The Atomic Skull breaks out of jail, killing multiple people, and kills some named character. So the Elite kill him and the audience is supposed to think they're the bad guys
The whole story just relies on slippery slope bullshit.
> Oh sure they're killing aliens, giant monsters, and terrorists who want to do nothing but kill civilians
> But what if they randomly decide to kill good people?
>>81879803
I have to say, the movie made the ending fight a lot more fun especailly the 'pop' line
>>81879820
And that's it.
The dubs have been checked. Hope you enjoyed the storytime.
>>81879772
>He doesn't actually do anything to change that idea.
It's called effective prison reform. They didn't do that with the Atomic Skull but it showed they were trying to be innovative and failed. The premise, the intent, the concept wasn't bad. You commit horrendous crimes doesn't mean you deserve death but you do deserve to be in servitude to everyone else.
>>81879781
Yeah I really like the 'idea' of this. Of supermans idea of heroism coming into conflict with a wholly different one. but I felt that the idea behind this is what i like about superman (what he represents and how he transcends typical cynical modern ideas of heroism) but the execution is everything I don't like about superman (lol nope superman too stronk I win).
I mean he fucking lobotomises manchester blacks powers out of his brain. It's like Kelly had this great set up but no resolution so he just had superman win the day and everyone thinks hes right again.
>>81879796
>>81879803
>>81879820
>>81879837
Man, I really fucking love how Manchester is in tears here
>>81879713
They took away Captain Britain and MI-13 from him, they took away Demon Knights, and the poor bastard lost it...
>>81878306
"Might makes right," is only appealing when you're the mightiest. It should be noted that Superman is concerned more about their ideology than their powers and Lex isn't concerned about them at all; the Elite aren't actually that powerful, Coldcast is their heaviest hitter, they rely mostly on pack ambush tactics.
>>81879772
Allowing groups like Black's to exact vengeance on whoever they feel like isn't practical, it's just tyrannical vengeance. Especially since they have no qualms killing any heroes that disagree. If the courts sentence a villain to die then fine but taking that right into your own hands is not justice.
>>81879998
Yeah, but lethal heroes aren't new to DC. This was just Casey throwing a tantrum over the sales numbers on Authority. Lethal heroes and no-lethal heroes can exist in the same comic universe
>>81879772
>he never actually showed how his methods were more effective in the long run.
Neither did the Elite.
>>81879877
Did you actually read the fucking storytime
He said he lobotomized him but he actually didn't. It was a bluff. Fucking /co/ confirmed for illiterate.
>>81880119
>Neither did the Elite.
They don't come back
>>81880137
The Elite's methods involve a lot of civilian casualties though
So if the Elite are wrong for killing bad guys how is Superman right?
Like how many lives would be saved vs those lost if instead of superman just stopping a bad guy the Elite outright killed them?
I don't quite see how beating them up and convincing Manchester Black they are dead proves their methods aren't as effective as his own...only that his are more moral. And at no point did they ever seem interested in the morality of it.
>>81880086
Don't you mean Kelly?
>>81880232
Right, mixed up the Joes
>>81880137
On an individual level, sure, but not beyond that. It'd be like saying the death penalty keeps crime rates down.
>>81879998
Weren't they officially backed up by the british government?
>>81880274
It does in Latveria
>>81880208
That honestly was one of my biggest issues with this otherwise pretty cool story. The way Kelly paints the elite as evil is not by their actions toward evil men alone. No he has to make them so wreckless they just kill lots of innocent people accidentally by not seeming to give a shit.
I mean they're a stand in for the Authority at least make them an accurate one. The Authority didn't just not give a fuck about civilian casualties. They simply fought with the understanding the shit they were dealing with was going to cause them and there was nothing they could do about it.
Not to mention...hes fucking superman. It'd be like some maniac going on a shooting spree and a cop takes him out. But here comes superman to tell the cop off because well if he was handling the situation he could have resolved in non lethally. Well yeah superman you're fuckin bulletproof, sorry some of us have to utilize what tools are at our disposal and not just hope you come save us in as ethical a manner as possible.
>>81880326
Yeah, but the cops in this case can crush your head with precision and never be in danger.
>>81880137
Other people take their place. And emboldened by the violence of the Elite, are themselves worse.
There are many better arguments against the consequentialist "ends justify the means" ideology but they tried and I enjoyed this for the, albeit not perfect, attempt anyway. I think it would have been a more solid argument if Superman argued for more effective prison reform though.
>>81880423
Does the comic show that? No
>>81880426
>more effective prison reform
>DC
Yeah nah, never happening
>>81880423
The only reason you think that is that you've taken that preconceived notion into the comic. Superman nor Kelly never demonstrate that fact. You can't present the moral dilemma that lethal means help more people and then solve that dilemma with "yeah but I'm stronger than you."
>>81880387
They can crush a regular blokes head but the Elite aren't dealing with regular blokes. If they had the Elite shown as stronger than superman it might make sense. Cos then they could all just easily take out superman level threats without resorting to lethal force. But they aren't. So sure regular people wouldn't stand a chance but going against some of the ridiculous shit in the DC universe your choices might be 'kill it' or 'risk letting it kill lots of people as well as you try to take it down nonlethally'.
It just seems a bit fucked up for a guy who just wiped the floor with an entire team of super powered beings so effectively he convinced their leader they were all dead to then say they should just do shit his way.
>>81880461
Hey a bunch of The Rouges reformed in the 80's after Barry died and Wally became the Flash. Even the ones that didn't straight up become good just lost interest in being super villains and became mercenaries
Then Johns took over the Flash and undid it all in an Identity Crisis tie in. Reform? Development? No, mind rape!
>>81880461
Yeah good point but it would have strengthen Superman's position by 100 fold I think. Throw in why Superman is so against killing and it would have been a broken tier quality story.
>>81880461
That's one of the things I really loved in Invincible. It showed villains reforming into good people.
>>81878306
You missed the point.
He proved that Manchester Black didn't actually believe in the shit he was pushing. As soon as the tables were turned and Black was faced with an overwhelmingly stronger ruthless adversary he immediately started whining about how it wasn't fair. He only advocated "might makes right" as justification for his own behavior and only because he was the one with the might. When he got a taste of his own medicine he suddenly wanted rules to protect him.
>>81880326
The police do not have an alternative to shooting the shooter. They do not have the capabilities to handle a situation like that non lethally, like Superman could.
What they do have, is the authority to make a decision like that. Superman does not. If the police had Superman's abilities they more than likely would take the less lethal and/or safer route if given the choice.
>>81880612
Its one of the things you can do when the comic has one mind behind it and isn't part of a 70+ year universe. You can actually get development happening cos you don't need to worry about the same stuff being the same decades later for future writers and readers.
>>81880628
But the Authority never said that being strongest made them right or righteous. Their philosophy was "any means necessary." Granted, that can get pretty fucked up, but the word necessary was important there. They didn't kill bad guys' families or whine that the fights weren't fair. Hell, they didn't even get in fights with their world's nonlethal heroes.
>>81880671
You don't have to worry about someone, let's call them Joan Burn, stepping in and saying " Sandman isn't allowed to be a good guy!"
>>81880704
>They didn't kill bad guys' families
>>81879465
>Hat, tell the streets to swallow them all, then rain acid on their families. That out to send a message
>rain acid on their families
>>81880757
He was talking about The Authority, not the strawmen based on them
>>81880757
I said the AUTHORITY never did that. You know, the team this comic is supposedly such a great takedown of.
>>81880628
Honestly that is just kinda lazy writing. If you write a story about opposing ideologies. And make one side utterly limp wristed in their resolve the moment shit goes bad...well yeah it's pretty fuckin easy to paint the other guy in a positive light.
Kelly basically made an Authority analogue (the elite) to face up against superman. And then made them careless lunatics with a sniveling coward of a leader to show how much better Superman is than the Authority.
>>81880779
>>81880785
And he was originally talking about the Elite. Separate the two and you'd enjoy the story much more.
>>81880806
Jenny Sparks wouldn't puss out and cry if Superman killed her team.
She'd taunt him and dare him to rape her if he'd become such a badass now, so she could at least go out getting "some use out of him."
>>81880886
> Don't think about the comic this one is preaching against
Even then it's poorly executed and the art isn't very good
Sad because this is suppose to be THE Superman comic but it just missed by a hair. Don't writers talk to each other to strengthen their stories and get feedback? They really need to.
>>81880979
Editors should really have the stones to tell writers when their moral arguments don't hold water and need restraint.
>>81880979
>>81881018
They're monthly action books. The moral being dumb doesn't matter as much as meeting the deadline and the emotional beats getting hit in order.
>>81880928
Yeah, it's not so out of the question to distance the two and just focus on the story itself without trying to see some ulterior motive.
>>81881066
But really good arcs that stick with people sell for years and years. It's in their interest to deliver a quality product.
>>81881066
I take it you don't like the medium very much.
>>81880137
You're not too familiar with comic books, are you? Death is an inconvenience at best in comics.
>>81879346
He was, even after he killed himself
>>81881018
>>81881066
Feed back is so goddamn important in thousands upon thousands of ways in our lives. How can you be in the story telling entertainment business with 0 feed back.
>>81881076
The motive is the whole story. If the Authority didn't exist this comic wouldn't either
![[Frostii]_K-On!!_B-Side_Theater_-_Uraon!!_-_9_[D3B356B9].mkv_snapshot_02.37_[2016.03.08_23.35.19].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BgehyeE.jpg "[Frostii]_K-On!!_B-Side_Theater_-_Uraon!!_-_9_[D3B356B9].mkv_snapshot_02.37_[2016.03.08_23.35.19].jpg")
>>81880928
>art isn't very good
>Doug Mahnke
Never post again
>>81881085
>But really good arcs that stick with people sell for years and years. It's in their interest to deliver a quality product
That kind of thinking is dead with WB/Disney. Just push something out that well sell well and relaunch when the numbers drop
>>81881106
Barry Allen
The original Supergirl
Mar-Vell
Richard Rider
etc
>>81881106
Then Superman shouldn't be so mad about the killing
>>81881126
Editors mostly exist in comics these days to synergize wider tie-in marketing and movie stuff as well as push event comics and related issues. Nobody gives a fuck about helping a writer and artist tell a great story about a character by reining them in or encouraging them when that's the right thing to do. Too much work to be done gearing up for the next sales gimmick.
>>81881141
Stories like it were made before The Authority
>>81881143
He's serviceable at best. His best work was on The Mask, all his modern cape stuff is in the same tier as Van Sciver, Reis, and the rest of DC's house people
>>81881141
Explain Kingdom Come. Quit seeing this as an attack on your favorite comic and just enjoy it for what it is.
>>81881254
I'm not going to turn my brain off and enjoy it. The comic is trying to make a case against another, at the time more popular, comic and it resorts to lazy writing to do so
>>81881267
>Explain Kingdom Come
Alex Ross and Mark Waid are babies who hate Rob Liefeld
I don't even like The Authority
>>81881305
Maybe you should learn that it's okay to take criticism on things you like.
>>81881343
Criticism should be justified, not exaggerate the perceived faults of something to make it easier to call shitty.
>>81881343
except
1. it's a poor criticism
2. i don't even like The Authority
>>81881263
The part about him only being serviceable as he leaned more towards the house style is absolutely true, but this art is before that period from how veiny the muscles are and unrealistic the proportions of Superman.
The Mask, Major Bummer, his Lobo minis, this, all quality stuff
>>81881365
>>81881386
Subjective.
>>81881203
This hurt my heart anon. So backwards.
>>81881365
>>81881386
>these assblasted authority dick riders
Lmao
>>81881267
Dude its very clear the ELITE are based on the AUTHORITY. Besides the obvious name theyre lead by chain smoking superbrits.
>>81881333
>Rob Liefeld
Is it unreasonable of me to not be interested in this guy's work because he defended MOS on Twitter?
>>81881387
This art feels like an in between period. Not as exaggerated as Major Bummer which was about 4 years before this story
>>81881415
You guys realize people here aren't arguing because they like the authority and thats why this story has faults. Theyre arguing that if you make a story designed to show why the ideology of a comic book team is wrong...and then warp the ideology to a silly caricature so the viewpoint you want to put forth is effortlessly right, it's not really good writing.
>>81881403
It's not subjective if you deliberately make the bad guys in your story do stuff the people you hate don't actually do. Like a propaganda movie where they take a case about not reading the bible in school to the supreme court, even though in real life that's totally legal.
>>81881434
I find it's better to just avoid comic people on twitter unless they mainly post art.
>>81881457
This. Shit, I've only read the first two collections of the Authority, but I know for a fact that even if they're basically a fascist superteam junta that runs the world, they never murdered a defeated enemy's kids just to show him what for.
>>81881446
It's still pretty cooky compared to his Green Lantern stuff. Just look at the last few pages
>>81881505
>show him what for.
Love this phrase.
>>81881458
Again, separate the authority and the elite and just look at it for what it is.
Superman vs the shady morals of a new team.
>>81881569
OP here, I had never even heard of the Authority when I read the comic and I still felt the same way.
>>81881505
>a fascist superteam junta that runs the world, they never murdered a defeated enemy's kids just to show him what for.
That seems shortsighted. Those kids will only grow up to be a problem they'll need to kill later. Better to kill them now when it's easier and there's less collateral damage.
>>81881569
Okay. Sure. If you just ignore the authors intent entirely then yes its a very simple story about why supermans way is morally superior to that of people with no morality of conscience whatsoever. It isn't a very effective one though.
>>81881679
Nah, it's likely the new regime would have the children take care of.
>>81879684
What about the innocent victims who died when they sank that country? I don't mean the civilians, the actual rape victims. IIRC the Authority didn't even bother trying to save them.
>>81881711
As though children orphaned by the state don't grow up resenting the circumstances.
>>81881763
Which is to say, there are far better ways to criticize the Authority concept. Ellis didn't invent them to be "right."
>>81881763
Save them how?
>>81881691
Subjective.
>>81881763
In what way would you save them? It's the same deal as using two nukes instead of a land invasion of Japan, they say as much - all you can really do is hope that you saved enough innocent people to make up for the ones you killed at the end of the day. Not exactly pleasant, but hey, it's the truth, it's all the justice us mortals can make for ourselves, and boy is it ever the American way.
>>81881836
Why would you even respond to that when people are speaking of being critical over a piece of fiction.
Wow my point of criticism is subjective....holy shit go figure I guess it's an opinion. What a crime.
>>81878306
>he just proved that he's stronger than the Authority
Yeah he proved that the might makes right mentality is not so fun when someone who has better might then you shows up.
>>81881910
But the elites point was not might makes right.
It was about 'removing the cancers that fester in us and flushing them down the toilet'
>>81879631
Their point of view is they act so horribly to put down the bad guys while superman just slaps them on the wrist. How is that 'might makes right'. They aren't saying their strength makes them right theyre saying the way they choose to act is what makes them right.
>>81881962
>Rule number one: He who has the power makes the rules
What is that if not might makes right?
>>81881890
Why would you bring up the authority when we're talking about What's so funny?
>>81881992
Because if it's NOT a story about Superman versus the Authority (which it is) then it's just a shallow story that says "Wouldn't it be fucked up if superheroes murdered lots of innocent people for no reason? Superman won't do that though, isn't he cool?"
>>81882037
That's subjective. You're trying to push this weird agenda and can't see the story because you're so enthralled in seeing this authority parallel
>>81881992
Because it is clearly and obviously inspired by the authority.
Sure you can honestly try and say 'subjective' as if that means anything. But the similarities and intent are fucking obvious man.
>>81882088
>>81881992
>Joe Kelly: The germ for the story really came from a very visceral reaction I had to a comic I was reading at the time – The Authority. It was a dark anti-hero comic. I really like the Authority and its characters, but there was an issue in particular that felt like it had pushed the boundaries of what makes a hero and what makes anti-hero. I found myself getting ‘fanboy mad,’ which I don’t normally get. We had an anniversary issue, and I asked Eddie (Berganza) if we could directly address those characters. I wanted Superman to take those characters on. And that became the germ for Action Comics #775.
http://www.comicmix.com/2012/06/12/joe-kelly-adapts-whats-so-funny-about-trust-justice-the-american-way-into-superman-vs-the-elite/
Would you like me to provide you with Joe Kellys email adress so you can send him an email. Subject line 'your opinion on why you wrote the thing you wrote' with the body simply reading 'subjective'?
>>81882123
Say The Authority never existed.
Why is it bad for Superman to not want a violent group of vigilantes endangering civilians and murdering villans without being given the authority to do so?
>>81882175
It isn't bad. It's just a boring story where you set up an ideological argument and present one side as obviously wrong so the one with superman seems obviously right.
>>81882204
Thank you for giving a solid criticism without screaming
>AUTHORITY
>>81879837
Thanks OP, the follow up to this was also fantastic.
