Why doesn't Captain America approve of Frank's American ways?
>>80878588
Frank is a psychopath
>>80878588
because franks "american ways" were spawned by Vietnam war era thinking and the cold war.
captain America is the embodiment of ww2 and pre ww2 American optimism and hope. thoose two ideologies clash so horifically i have no clue how we went from one to the other so quickly.
also i find it funny how people that grew up in the cold war and veitnam generations find the youth of today to be un-american.
>>80878736
War never changes.
>>80878758
i hate that line from fallout.
its a bald face lie for one and a non sequitur comment
war is always changing. in the napoleonic wars they used to line soldiers up with guns march them to stand 20 feet away from eah other and shoot and reload till the other side died. no cover, no protection, no real tactics, no strategy. just who had the most men willing to die and were the fastest at reloading.
compare that to the gurilla tactics and airplane bombings of today. war has changed alot
>>80878922
Which is exactly why MGS4 > Fallout (series)
>>80878922
people don't want to believe war has changed
people want to believe wars can still end with a clear winner, which just isn't too
>>80878922
when they say that im pretty sure they mean why war is done and what the result of it is. not how it is preformed.
>>80878922
I believe that when it is said that war never changes it refers to the nature of the man. It will be war for the same desires with the same lame excuses.
The tatics and weaponary sure have changed throught time but the reasons are the same.
>>80878922
I think the context of the line means more regardless of humanity's state we'll always be warring monsters be it a gleaming jet age future or a bombed to shit apocalyptic wasteland, conflict is a constant.
>>80879061
>The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth
>Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory
>Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower
>But war never changes
>In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired.
Yes, I think that's exactly what they're trying to say.
>>80878588
It is not american unless you shoot a theater, or a school, as a matter of fact anything that involves innocents will be enough.
>>80878922
It's a commentary that no matter how far our society progresses war is still a savage thing that kills multitudes at the whim of a few.
>>80878922
>missing the point this hard
Did you at least listen to the rest of the speech?
>>80878680
Not really. A psychopath lacks certain emotions such as empathy and a sense of right and wrong, both of which Frank has been shown to have.
>>80878922
End result is the same and so is the cause. Power and money, people want it, people kill for it, and the common folk get fucked in the end.
>>80879238
>>Land and Monetary value
>>Land and Monetary value
>>Land and Monetary value
>>Land and Monetary value
Same shit faggot
>>80878922
Are you retarded?
>>80879383
That's a sociopath. "Psychopath" is a broad term that could be applied to Frank.
>>80879383
bullshit, when has Frank ever showed Empathy even once?
>>80878736
This.
Cap was molded by WWII. Friends and foes were clearly defined and there were winners and losers.
Frank was molded by Vietnam. The polar opposite.
>>80879542
Yes, many times, actually. Especially with kids.
>>80879542
FrankenCastle, shortly before he agreed to fight for the sewer dwelling monsters.
>>80878922
But people always dies for someone else ideals, you fucking idiot
>>80879527
There is no difference between the terms, nor have they had very consistent definitions in the past. They have both fallen out of use in favor of anti-social personality disorder
>>80878922
You're taking the line too literally.
>>80879633
DadFrank is best Frank.
>>80879633
ok, so you have no idea what "empathy" means.
it does not mean "advice" nor "harshly enforces rules", nor "make sure he's the only one armed"
>>80879859
It's really sad when writers forget that the whole reason Frank started his war on crime is because he lost his family to it, not because he likes killing criminal scum, which he admittedly does.
>>80879934
It's best however when the writers show that Frank has forgotten that he started his war on crime because he lost his family to it but keeps doing it just because it's the only thing he has left and he enjoys his work.
>>80879934
do you honestly see Frank as a man who was ever a decent suburban father?
>>80879934
That's why he's based in the new season of dd
>>80879868
He's helped kids find their parents before in the middle of him trying to murder thugs and shit. He is very empathetic and caring towards children.
>>80879868
Okay, what about that time when he helped a lost little girl find her parents? Or saved all those kidnapped women from being sold into sexual slavery? Or >>80879667 ?
>>80880146
One Bach two batch
>>80879868
Anon, I think it's pretty clear that you just don't like Frank. The guy's done plenty of helping people in between all the killing.
>>80878922
>autism
>>80878922
>I havnt the slightest clue on rhetoric and history
The post
>>80880210
And then he uses her father to steady his aim to make sure he could kill a mobster. One day, that little girl's going to realize that nice man that helped her on a snowy Christmas eve turned her father into an accessory to murder.
DadFrank has his great moments, but I don't count this among them.
>>80878922
>the tools to kill have changed
>that means killing another man changes too
Hurr durrr
>>80880234
so did John Wayne Gacy, that does not mean he wasn't a psychopath.
You either have no idea what your talking about, or are seriously Frankwanking
>>80878588
Because Frank is a deranged serial killer whose actions would create a lot of collateral damage that the comics never really deal with.
>>80878588
>>80878588
Cap believes in justice, which (to him) means holding people accountable for their actions via the legal system. Killing is a last resort.
By contrast, Punisher believes "killing criminals" equals "holding them accountable for their actions". He's a sociopath, plain and simple.
>>80881376
>so did John Wayne Gacy
No one's talking about JWG except you.
>>80878758
Those were strange times.
>>80880192Is this just me now?
>>80881545
oh, so you also don;t know what an "example" is? or are you deliberately being obtuse and irrational?
>>80882057
Anon, are you stupid or something?
No one is talking about JWG except you.
At this point we're talking about whether Frank is empathetic.
And he is. He's displayed empathy in between his criminal killing sprees.
The fact of the matter is that he has little empathy or sympathy for criminals.
>>80878736
I would say that Frank is the pent up frustration of the American Criminal Justice System and it feels that it doesn't go the way we want it to go.
Also pic related.
>>80882907
So we shouldn't put our safety in Frank's hands, either?
>>80882183
no he hasn't, he's displayed some sort of personal code he keeps. he has never once displayed actual empathy.
people can be nice sometimes despite being psychopaths, that's why I brought up JWG. I have no idea how a human being over 8 wouldn;t be able to make that connection
>>80883136
>no he hasn't
Yeah, he has.
>people can be nice sometimes...
Of course.
>that's why I brought up JWG
And still no one gives a damn, except you.
>>80878922
>Takes "war never changes" line literally
>From a game with hand-held GAUSS rifles, hand-held nuclear missile launchers, and laser Gatling guns...
>>80878922
It's metaphorical. The tools have changes but the reasons and results remain the same, you fucking autistic cunt.
>>80882982
Absolutely. Frank doesn't go around assuring people's safety. He's not a safeisher. He goes around punishing motherfuckers. Many of who have dozens if not hundreds of victims.
I can't imagine Frank being anti second amendment either.
>>80883295
So is he an anarchist?
>>80883307
no he is a libertarian
>>80883172
you clearly give a damn, else you would not have responded.
and he has never demonstrated sympathy, you just have no idea what sympathy is.
>>80883337
>you clearly give a damn
Not about JWG, you tool.
>and he has never demonstrated sympathy
You must be retarded. He has absolutely shown sympathy.
>>80883295
>Frank doesn't go around assuring people's safety.
True, but he does go out of his way to make sure nobody innocent gets hurt while he's Franking.
>>80879728
A Sociopath has no emotions
A Psychopath has the wrong emotions
If applied to Killing SP's usually don't kill as they get nothing out of it, a PP kills because they get some kind of positive feeling from it.
SP's are usually manipuative, while PP's are usually violent
>>80878922
>in the napoleonic wars there was no real tactics or strategy
You're talking about the wars named after one of the most famous military minds of all time. How fucking stupid can you be?
>>80878588
Because Frank solves the problem permanently and Captain America is a naive fucking idiot.
>>80883394
If your going to put no effort into explaining what you mean, people are going to misunderstand you. it helps if you make even the slightest effort to exontextualize what your saying.
furthermore, you obviously give a damn about JWG, or else you would not be responding
and no, he didn't. I understand, you have absolutely no idea what sympathy means. You don't need to keep repeating that.
>>80883488
>Frank solves the problem
>>80883466
>A Sociopath has no emotions
No, they have emotions. Just not empathy. They can be happy or angry of sad or scared, but all in self-centered ways.
>>80883506
The crime rate goes way down wherever Frank is and in some circumstances he has practically stopped all crime. Even the "moral" super heroes are forced to question whether he is right because of the results of him being in area for a long period of time.
>>80883490
Anon, I apologize. I should have known you were retarded.
Chances are that you probably think empathy and sympathy are the same thing.
>>80878588
>>80881446
So, how does Cap feel about Ghost Rider?
>>80883472
A million times this.
Do you have any idea how many thousands of books and theses have been written on the strategy and tactics of the Napoleonic Wars alone?
Let's not forget about cavalry, artillery, naval warfare, and all that. Not to mention the insane discipline the soldiers had to have in order to not flee in terror.
>>80883596
You have quite blatantly asserted that rule enforcement is automatically empathy. maybe you should think for a second before you say someone else does not understand it.
>>80883599
probably thinks he's a hothead.
please don't revoke my posting priveleges
![10838747_862192667159865_1781487970_n[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oMPqXpw.jpg "10838747_862192667159865_1781487970_n[1].jpg")
>>80883472
He's stupid enough to think that the "war never changes" quotes are about order of battle, or the kinds of weapons or tactics and strategy. Not exactly your next von Clausewitz .
>>80883307
>>80883324
Considering how he feels about the police and the millitary, I don't think he's really that libertarian, and he's definitely no anarchist. I can't remember him ever expressing an opinion on social spending or taxation.
>>80883453
Sure, but that's a very different beast.
Protect and serve is a slogan.
The police have no duty to protect you or even show up, even if you're repeatedly calling 911 locked in your bathroom with a guy in your house, and he ends up raping you and your roomate for several hours.
>>80878736
>also i find it funny how people that grew up in the cold war and veitnam generations find the youth of today to be un-american.
Probably because they see that same "youth" walking on American flags, calling for American flags to be banned, calling basic patriotism fascism, so on and so forth.
>>80879033
Well in MGS4 the point was that war indeed DID change. It was no longer about power, resources and territory, it was war for the sake of war with one side fighting itself in order to create artificial demand for products it sold to itself.
>>80883788
Don't you mean GRAPE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqgiEQXGetI
>>80878922
>>80879033
The comments "War never changes" and "War has changed" are actually both correct. The first one refers to how the base idea of war and the primal reasons we fight never change to the point war will probably always exist. With the second comment, it's referring to the way we fight war which is always changing. So yes, war never changes and war does change effectively.
>>80879033
>liking shitty Kojima writing that produced the "nanomachines" meme due to how bullshit it was
>>80879868
He essentially went against orders from high ranking US officials because they wanted to extract some weaponized disease from her and protected her better than most fathers. He also almost missed an important target he was trying to kill because he was helping a girl that lost her parents. Frank is best dad.
>>80878680
Really, this thread should've ended here. He literally murdered two people willing to help them, of course he wouldn't approve. The fact that people are actually saying otherwise is pathetic.
>>80884344
>>liking shitty Kojima writing that produced the "nanomachines" meme due to how bullshit it was
Kojima wasn't the writer for Metal Gear Rising.
>>80884486
Anon, MGS4 used nanomachines before as a bullshit plot device.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kNrIn8H32c
>>80884428
So having a spine is now considered to be a psychopath.
>>80884507
I thought you were specifically referring to the "NANOMACHINES, SON" line.
>>80884344
You may recall nanomachines have been a major plot element of MGS since the first Solid game
>>80884582
Yes, it was a meme before that even. I actually consider it worse considering how serious MGS4 was supposed to be. Metal Gear in general is overrated as all hell in my opinion.
>>80884597
>it was a meme
please stop with that bullshit.
Just because you deem something to be a meme doesn't make it bad writing or not serious.
Also the word overrated doesn't mean anything.
Since it conveys your subjective observation of the subjective feeling of others about a specific thing.
>>80878588
Why the hell does Frank respect Cap? He's no different from Spiderman and the dozen other heroes who lock guys in jail so they can escape a month later.
Non-cape veterans don't get this kind of bootlicking from Frank.
>>80884669
Because Cap is an american soldier and Frank has shown to respect all american soldiers and non corrupt policemen?
>>80884322
>>80878922
>>80878758
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE25wHQPHIE
>>80884690
Like I said, that usually amounts to an equal form of respect, not this idolizing that he does for Cap.
>>80884660
Kojima is a hack, that is my objective opinion on the matter
>>80878922
>no cover, no protection, no real tactics, no strategy. just who had the most men willing to die and were the fastest at reloading
Open mouth spout ignorance.
If Frank wasn't a Comic Book Main Character there wouldn't be a hero in the Marvel universe that wouldn't devote time to putting him into the deepest super villain prison on the planet.
>>80879238
>>The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth
>Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory
>Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower
>But war never changes
>In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired.
wealth, gold, economic power, resources.
same shit you idiot.
>>80878736
Because anybody what fought in 'Nam has something of a hateboner for flag-burners, actual communists, and hippies, all of which seem to have come back in vogue as of this decade.
>>80878588
because tht writer is a idiot who was trying to make caps more like bats
>>80884754
Well he DID start as a villain
>>80883599
The Rider answers to a higher Law. Cap might consider him a little extreme, but he's also a good Irish Catholic, so a literal angel of vengeance probably gets a pass.
>>80878736
>i have no clue how we went from one to the other so quickly.
because the optimism and hope of pre WW2 is a lie bestowed on that period retroactively.
>ahh things were better in the past
>it was agolden age
>how did things go so wrong
it's a comon way of thinking among all cultures
>>80884883
reminds of white people loving the fifties
>muh milkshakes
>muh grease
>muh segregation and rampant racism
>>80884690>>80884669
Because Cap is quite possibly the most objective "good guy" in the Marvel universe, and a fellow warrior at that. Not only that, Cap fought in The Big One. You have, like, no idea how much weight that carries with the average vet. (Especially Marine infantry like Frank, they're the most sentimental of the lot, no matter the tough guy image. Really rather adorable how easy you can get a jarhead to tear up at a good song or service. But then I'm a jaded sonuvabitch at the best of times.)
>>80883506
Frank has saved millions of innocents simply by eliminating figurative and literal monsters.
>>80884953
How many people who could have achieved redemption are gone because of Frank's indiscriminate blood lust
>>80884669
Because Captain America actually is capable of killing, he's killed before (he once snapped a terrorist's neck on live television), just never in cold blood.
Spider-Man. like Batman, isn't capable of killing even in legally and morably justifiable situations like self-defense and the defense of others.
>>80884966
Depends on the run. Frank's bloodlust is very discriminate depending on the writer. Nevermind that you could apply the same bullshit logic to any hero who orders or carries out the killing of henchmen and the like.
Maybe one of those hired guns was literally about to call it quits and go straight right before SHIELD decided to wreck an evil base's shit? Who gives a shit. It doesn't fucking matter in the realm of fantastic realpolitik and actual global defense.
>>80884979
remember when spidey killed a woman?
>>80885065
Yeah, by accident, and he still feels guilty about it to this very day
>>80881224
If the little girl doesn't grow up to be a pussy she won't get teary-eyed over a fucking killer's death.
>>80885065
What's the story there? You mean Gwen Stacy? That's not an intentional kill, that's a failed rescue attempt.
>>80878588
germans
-------the line
rapists
murderers
drug dealers
>>80884966
>indiscriminate bloodlust
There's nothing 'indiscriminate' Frank's killing. Drug dealers are about as low as he'll go, and even then he's known to punish by increments.
A broken bone or scar can be a helluva warning.
>>80885177
Not all of the HYDRA agents or crazy shit he fought in WWII were krauts, which is why I've always kind of called bullshit on the "he only kills in wartime" excuse.
The US simply sanctioning a scuffle is apparently enough to deactivate his moral code, but guys that are basically mecha-Hitler don't deserve death?
>>80885234
Cap has killed Hydra agents before, as well as the Red Skull's men and arab terrorists
>>80885112
the wolverine vs spidey mini
>>80878588
Doesn't Cap kill people too?
>>80878680
>Cap beats up the mentally ill
AMERICA!
>>80885425
It's ok when he does it
>>80883337
WE GET IT YOU HATE FRANK
JESUS
>>80883506
You know, except the kids of all those people Frank kills who grow up wanting to kill Frank.
You've seen Kill Bill, right?
>>80885673
has there been a story about that yet?
children of deceased criminals who all team up to gun for frank.
sounds like a good story.
>>80885687
I feel like that would make a good "Punisher: The End" story, and could bring up a decent discussion on what the Punisher considers someone worth "punishing".
If someone is innocent, if their only crime is wanting to kill Frank for killing their family? As I hear in every Frank thread, he never kills an innocent. What if an innocent is trying to kill him? Does that make them not an innocent?
If this story did get told, I bet the writer cheaped out by having the person hire somebody else to do it or was otherwise unable to themselves, which rather ruins the point.
Cap is a SJW PC cunt.
>>80885751
>What if an innocent is trying to kill him? Does that make them not an innocent?
There are several stories where the police/army tries to kill frank. He doesn't retaliate in any way
>>80881414
A poet
>>80884543
>killing allies for no reason=having a spine
Fuck off, Dio. That's such a massive leap in logic I don't even know where to begin this argument.
>Punisher is a good guy
>Still lets the Kingpin live
What would MCU Cap think of Punisher?
>>80888321
I don't know, the MCU Avengers kill and no one gives a shit, Cap can't say much about Frank if he doesn't give a damn about Black Widow and Hawkeye.
>>80878922
Not only are you laughably ill-informed of historical war strategy, but that's not even the point of the line. Its original meaning is that the cause of war never changes; it's about armies killing themselves for resources and profit.
>>80885433
come on, that's like 90% of what superheroes do. and like, 70% of what supervillains do
