>>http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/03/08/the-killing-joke-was-never-meant-to-be-part-of-dc-continuity-and-now-it-no-longer-is/
So.... DC shit in one of the his best comics with one hand, but with the other keep selling it online and is producing an animated movie...
If they shoot themselves in the foot any more, they'll be taking Oracle's place in that wheel chair.
>>80770157
Eh, it's like All-Star Superman. Love the story for what it is, not how it connects back to everything.
>>80770157
>being a continuity fag
so is it not canon or "not canon".
>>80770157
I really don't mind.
Cape stories work best in standalone arcs, with nebulous canon before and after.
>>80770157
>DC shit in one of the his best comics
did you mean to say "their" or "his"?
so what's the new story since she's still crippled. is Babson being cripple kin true?
>>80770157
You know, it's not canon since new52. But regardless of what the Batgirl team of fags say we all know is the most important Barbara gordon story.
She is a shit character and KJ and Oracle made her great
>>80770368
doesn't matter. hypercrisis
Stop posting bleedingcool articles you fuckheads.
Besides >>80770481 is correct and KJ has been not canon for the last 5 or 6 years
>>80770441
She hasn't been crippled for 5 years
>>80770546
I mean in her current run she's still crippled at some point. Isn't that how she meets the cripple black chick since they did rehab together?
>>80770513
>>80770546
But don't the new stories still mention how.she was crippled before? Why would she be triggered by that statue of Batgirl on a wheelchair otherwise?
>>80770513
Im pretty sure he being crippled is still canon thus some form of this is canon. Its been brought up multiple times.
Didn't Moore feel it shouldn't have been canon, and kind of regretted it becoming so popular?
>>80770629
It doesn't matter what he originally intended, it lead to a great character in Oracle.
>>80770294
Well All-Star Superman don't create a new status quo for more than a decade and result in the creation of a team(birds of prey) and all kind of shit through the years.
>>80770368
Now is a fake memory
We Wolverine now
>>80770413
English is my second language
>>80770580
You, I honestly hate this approach for Nu52 stuff. This only really works if we were currently in a second Silver Age; where most issues are standalone and everything is lighter in tone. But the fact that DC tried it's best to build a fuckton of continuity for their reboot only to pull this shit half a decade later really puts a bad taste in my mouth. They should've did this from the start, not when blatant continuity errors started popping up.
Looks more like they were trying to suggest nothing in the character's history prior to being her creative team should be considered relevant. Based on the panels showing other supporting characters, I mean. Really cheap and egotistical, but hey, I don't give a shit about the character or her books anyway.
>Killing Joke was never canon
>Oracle was never canon
>Barbara never had to deal with the horrific consequences of losing the ability to walk
Yeah, fuck character development.
When the fuck did this happen? It was specifically referenced by multiple characters in Death of the Family post-Flashpoint.
>>80770932
Obviously, you aren't supposed to pay attention to stories featuring Batgirl outside of this very specific run.
Stop talking about this
It's only the writer's opinion, which clearly doesn't matter
Implying something isn't canon doesn't mean shit in comics where anytime you could be fighting against editorial or other writers for your job
>>80770157
>There’s no right, and no wrong, way to read that page. It is what it is to you. We deliberately set it up that way.
>If you want to read it as retcon, you’re welcome & encouraged to do so. If you want the timeline as-is, you are also encouraged to do so.
>Your own personal “truth” in this story is what we want you to take from it. How you read that page is how it is.
>“This is an imaginary story….aren’t they all?”
So in other words nothing's changed, it's still canon after all, and OP's a cockguzzling shitstirrer. Wowee.
>>80770157
welp, sjws have won
>>80770668
>It doesn't matter what he originally intended
and you guys wonder why he's a bitter old man
>>80770157
is.. is that a tittie
>>80770777
Killing joke had no absolutely character development for babs.
>>80770584
>>80770574
She was crippled but she wasn't crippled by the joker.
>>80770777
Well first off Babs still lost the ability to walk for five years so abloo abloo there to tou and second of all stop giving the killing joke credit for what Ostrander did.
>THE KILLING JOKE HAS TO BE CANON!!!
why?
I SEE A TITTY
>posting an article from March 8th
>article includes the "killing joke wasn't meant to be canon" with no source meme
>>80771577
Because its babby's first Batman comic, so all the people that only read comics that "matter" feel betrayed.
>>80770157
>giving joker a backstory before the vat of acid
killing joke did it well but making it canon? his origin pre-acid should just be left to speculation
>>80771753
Too late for that, according to Snyder he was a gang leader who didn't act any differently before he was the Joker.
>>80771577
If it's not canon then it doesn't matter.
>>80771777
But that's objectively untrue. It matters in and of itself, as a work.
>>80771772
Snyder isn't canon
>>80771819
Even Morrison mentioned the Zero Year at the end of his run.
>>80771777
Fuck off Owlman
>>80770157
>>80770670
>>80770441
>>80770481
>>80770682
>>80770777
>>80771499
>>80770932
>>80770993
>>80771753
Multiple choice.
Also you guys are idiots.
>>80770157
DC story was never meant to take as a continuity to begin with, even the one that they brand as continuity does not make much sense. So, KJ is not canon is no shocking for me.
>>80770157
The Killing Joke is still canon you fucktards
It's not like they replaced it with anything
>>80770157
>killing joke
>one of the best comics
Maybe you should try reading DC comics that aren't about Batman.
>>80771989
DC has comics that aren't about Batman?
>>80771989
The Killing Joke is DC's best selling comic even now 20 years later.
>>80770629
Batgirl is supposed to be somewhat lighthearted in tone they decided that being shot and possible sexually assaulted by the joker was a bit too heavy going to fit into that, essentially though it was that cover from a while back that everyone lost their shit over that started this.
> people thinking that having nothing bad happen to female characters is feminist
> people thinking that getting rid of a disabled female superhero and an Asian Batgirl is somehow making things more diverse
Why is DC so fulla shit?
>>80770157
And nothing of value was lost.
>>80772074
I guess Civil War and The Killing Joke now have 2 things in common.
I stopped caring about canon long time ago. But if I'll ever get to write New 52 Batgirl I don't care, Barbara was an Oracle once.
>>80772109
>Cassfags still whining.
>>80772135
What? DC keeps bragging about how wonderful and diverse their New52 is, but they got rid of what could be a lead Asian character in the Bat books.
>>80770157
KILLING JOKE WAS NEVER CANON. Whoever told you it was lied. Batman kills Joker at the end. Bryan Boland's secrecy about the whole thing makes Moore's original intentions even more clear. If Killing Joke was actually canon, Joker wouldn't be running around 20 years later.
>>80772162
You do know Cass is back right? The war is over and you've won.
>>80772169
Batman never killed Joker at the end of Killing Joke. Whoever believes that is gay or worseKevin Schmidt
>>80772162
Damian is 1/4 Chinese.
>>80772169
>Batman kills Joker at the end.
But that's false.
>>80772169
Joker shot Barbara though.
>>80772201
Grant Morrison believes that.
>>80770157
Why the fuck is she naked, I thought she was dressed and they just took the pictures.
Some asshole on the Indoor Kids podcast years ago said she was raped too and I lost my shit because I thought he was making shit up.
>>80772258
>Why the fuck is she naked
Because Alan Moore's wife left him for another woman. Ever since then he's been a bit "funny" about female characters.
>>80772373
>Alan Moore's wife left him for another woman
I'm sorry, what?
>>80772388
Al tried to play Mr. Mormon and ended up getting cucked by his intend Wife #2 when both women decided they didn't want to be with him anymore but stated together with eachother.
>>80772191
She's some shitty side character with some new revised backstory and outfit.
I guess Wally's back too then. Can't complain if DC says he's back.
>>80770682
Shut the fuck up, continuityfag. It doesn't mean NO CONTINUITY ALLOWED it means that the quality of stories is more important and that what's canon is what's remembered, so you don't have to waste time retconning what some idiot like Lobdell did to ruin a character. This is exactly how Marvel has always done it and yet nobody complains about that.
Continuityfags are the worst goddamn retards on the planet, I swear. You need everything spelled out for you, take everything completely literal, think if a story is non-canon it's not worth reading and judge books by how much they matter. I couldn't possibly put enough quotations around the word matter so I'm not even going to try.
People like you are how we got 25 years of editorially dictated stories and how horseshit like Avengers Disassembled managed to single handedly ruin characters for decades.
>>80771872
That's how stupid the people who are upset about this are, they actually got BTFO by fucking Cameron Stewart.
>>80772543
When you jettison 75 years of stories to draw upon and replace it with a plastic bag of shit, people have a right to be angry about it.
Damage Control Comics strikes again!
You guys drooling all over TKJ and insisting that Barbara was only good because of it are idiots.
Look, I agree that Babs as Oracle >>>>>>> Babs as Batgirl. No question there. BUT GET THIS: a non-crippled person can serve as backup/tech guru/mentor/surveillance just as well.
Make Barbara become scared or disillusioned with nightly patrols. Make her feel like she's too old for it. Whatever. Have her be awesome as Oracle.
There's no need to take her legs to accomplish any of that.
>>80771872
>>80772588
Saying that a character defining moment may or may not have happened because art is sometimes ambiguous is not "BTFO" anyone.
>>80772616
Remember what happen LAST time DC made Babs scared?Damage Control
>>80770157
Its a shit comic, even Alan Moore agrees.
>>80772616
I don't think that's the point, and it's not like she's going back now anyways.
>>80772596
Nobody jettisoned anything, moron. That's the point I'm making. Writers should be allowed to draw upon whatever stories they want and not draw upon stories they don't want. If a new story contradicts some old story, but the new story is way better and more memorable, that's the new canon. If a new story contradicts a famous old story but is a complete piece of shit, then the new story doesn't have to replace the old one just because some editor said so.
Morrison's Batman is a perfect example. It acknowledges all of the Silver Age stories as having happened, but other writers don't want that amount of baggage so ignore it.
Your accusation is completely wrong anyway since everything pre-Crisis has been non-canon since Zero Hour, and Infinite Crisis wiped like 75% of post-Crisis out of canon as well.
>>80772648
>character defining
It doesn't define Barbara as she is now.
>>80772616
What's your argument? Oracle is a better character but her defining characteristic should be taken away? Are DC shills even trying any more?
>>80772669
As if anyone should ever listen to that cuck
Killing Joke didn't make Barbara relevant through Oracle. She was disposable. Credit Ostrander's Suicide Squad for that.
It even has a page where Barbara calls Bruce out on his laughing with the Joker
>Were you laughing about me?
>>80772690
So being a cripple was the only thing that defined Oracle?
>>80772648
Why does it matter if it "happened" or not? You read the story, it's not like they erased it from your memory.
>>80772704
No being Oracle was what defined Oracle.
>>80770580
>>80770584
>>80772687
So reboots are unnecessary? And continuity is fluid and doesn't need to be rigidly and arbitrarily defined? I'm glad we agree.
>>80772709
No, they lack that technology at the moment.
>>80772715
Well how would you define oracle?
It's comic books
Nothing is "canon"
Capeshit is cancer
>Harley was only pretending to be dumb the whole time
>Babs only thought she was crippled
Man, I'm so glad I don't read any of the Bat - shit books, being a Batfag has got to be as bad as being an Xfag.
>>80772704
The way she overcomes her paralyzation is her defining character trait, yes.
>>80772731
Not Batgirl
>>80772732
How about you stick to reading your 'graphic novels' faggot and stay the fuck out of cape threads?
>>80771872
>BUT MUH ORACLE
I like her as Oracle more than Batgirl, but she's NEVER going back in the wheelchair in main continuity. Even if Gail Simone tried to leave an opening to where she could later.
All we're left with are people either mostly ignoring the elephant in the room (Burnside) or desperately trying to address it and coming off as annoying (Simone).
If fans and writers want TKJ to not be canon in their heads then they can, because writers and fans do it with literally everything else. TKJ is still a best seller, is getting an animated movie, and will most likely be done and referenced in the DCEU. It's not going away even if they stop referencing it in the comics nonstop like Simone did, so people here need to stop getting their panties in a twist over others' interpretations.
>>80772762
You mean by realizing that her handicap was all in her head? That all she needed to do was fucking stand up? I liked Babs a lot more when she had an actual handicap to overcome. In a world full of invincible, master ninjas and gods, she was actually hurt, and loved with the results of her lifestyle, but despite it all she became the most useful member of the Batfamily, so much so that she became a crutch (hehe) for Bruce and he even admits that in No Man's Land.
>>80772775
It also would be dumb to cripple and then put her back in the chair as oracle. Oracle was kinda a slow burn characterization.
>>80771872
>Killing Joke IS a multiple choice past now
HYPERCRISIS
>>80772802
You realize that overcoming paralyzation does not necessarily mean walking again right?
>>80772775
Also if they want her back in a computer again, they don't have to paralyze her again, and it would be a massive controversy if they did, so they probably wouldn't. They can just have her outgrow the Batgirl name and think she's more useful with computers.
>>80772833
Oh I totally get that, but in this case Babs has no lasting effects of being paralyzed, it's almost like it was all just a dream.
I just hate Babsgirl so so much.
>>80772855
Of you want babs to angst about beong a wheelchair for five years than go read Simpne's Batgirl.
>>80772855
>>80772880
I want an actually interesting and unique character that helped define the DCU.
>>80772928
>interesting and unique
Than why are you reading capeshit?
>>80772434
The beard was such a cuck, heh.
>>80772880
Not angst about it so much as just overcome it, that's what made Babs just a great character, dispite the massive handicap making her unable to thrown on the cape and cowl, she was still an irreplaceable part of the team. On a team filled with master level gymnastic fucks having the cripple being the most useful member is kind of inspiring. I mean, what did Batman do when he was paralyzed? Not a damn thing? What did Babs do? She became the Bat computer in human form.
Now she might as well just be generic girl hero #5, she's not speical or inspiring anymore on any level.
>>80772933
Because I'm embarrassed to read Graphic Novels without my fedora on.
>>80772933
Because genre isn't restrictive to quality.
>>80770629
It was intended as an Elseworlds story by Alan Moore, in the first place
>>80772978
>>80772978
>what did Batman do when he got paralyzed
Got better.
>>80770994
Since it's been brought up, what the hell is hypercrisis?
>>80772729
Ah yes, comics in in the near future of 2017 now have the ability to actually RetCon the reader's memory how foolish of me. Don't be a fucking idiot, Grant Morrison said it best during his Animal Man Run
>"Our lives are replayed every time someone reads us. We can never die. We outlive our creators. We outlive our gods!"
The Killing Joke won't cease existing because of this, don't be a fucking dumb fuck. They're fucking stories. How will them being non-canon make them not as existent as other stories?
>>80773024
The synchronicity of the DC universe.
>>80772978
>what did Batman do when he was paralyzed?
Got better and trained fast enough to be Batman again
You can claim something isn't canon all you want
The killing joke is the most popular joker story and will always be referenced
So I'm not sure if this is a victory or not
DC will put the status quo back in place whenever they want
>>80770668
>Elsewhere on /co/
>[INSERT CREATOR] ENVISIONED THIS FOR THE CHARACTER. THEY ARE RUINING [CREATOR]'s LEGACY!
>>80773024
Everything is canon, and part of continuity. It's much more true for DC than for Marvel since each past continuity for DC is actually still part of continuity and stuff like retcons are explained also explained in continuity (Most of em' anyway).
>>80772709
Because they replaced a perfectly good and valid universe with a flaming shit pile. If it doesn't matter if the story didn't happen than it doesn't matter if it did either. There is no reason to get rid of decades of rich history outside of cynical cash grabs. This isn't rocket science.
>>80772616
She was not popular as Batgirl and was going to be killed off and retired as character
Once that story happened people became interested in her character again similar to how Jason dying revitalized the Robin role for Tim.
>>80773125
So? does it not being canon make it invalid to you? You're using replaced as if that story will never be stocked in stores again in favor of some other story that is now canon over it. The Dark Knight Returns isn't canon, it was a perfectly good book, did DC not making it canon somehow ruin it and the actual canon DC Continuity then for not making it the possible canonical future for the continuity? Let's see, how about something less removed from continuity then? All Star Superman was also a tremendously great book that was never made part of continuity (Unless you're into Hyper Crisis which you evidently are not seeing as how you're panties are getting tied over a story being "Non Canon"). Would you call CoIE a cynical cash grab? It completely retooled majority of the DC Universe with certain names being MiA for years and certain events never being considered canon or altered to point where they're not really the same event anymore.
>>80773222
To be fair, TDKR takes place in an ambiguous future in which everyone's dead or retired.
>>80773262
Frank Miller's confirmed that every Dark Knight takes place during the year it was published.
>>80773222
Please reread what I wrote slowly. You are arguing that those stories still exist and that continuity should be able to be fluid. I am saying that this is possible without rebooting the entire universe and history that has been slowly built up over time. If canon doesn't matter, than there is no reason to wipe the slate clean. I am all about the Hyper Crisis, it's too bad that DC isn't.
>>80770394
this
>>80773095
Being Canon or Non Canon is nothing of concern for DC or Marvel, it's all about what's more convenience at times.
You better not obseses with it too much, it will always be like this.
>>80773295
> it's too bad that DC isn't.
Yet DC keeps reintroducing past continuity doesn't it not?
>>80773339
I'm not obsessed, I've long since given up hoping that DC can somehow right the ship. I'm just disheartened.
>>80770157
Killing Joke was never meant to be canon and it was stupid of them to try to make parts of it canon in the first place.
>>80773344
Do you not see how this completely invalidates your opinion?
>>80773364
With this age and time there is no 'right the ship', anon. There is no canon or non canon for cape shit, it's all about business and convenience.
When you read cape shit, you better read it as a stand alone rather than a continuity it never make sense even for Marvel.
>>80772258
>>80773389
>"the definitive joker story" was never meant to be canon
It's amazing the kind of headcanons that become memes.
>>80773420
I mean the literal past continuity, I don't meant retconning out a retcon. For the Pre-Crisis it was Earth 2, Post Flashpoint it was the return of the Multiverse and Infinite Crisis, and now Convergence for Post Flashpoint. Everything is still canon somewhere, it just depends on what earth/multiverse you're looking at.
>>80773439
Thanks for the condescension, I'll strive read comics the way you tell me to from here on out.
>>80773453
>"the definitive joker story"
That's called hyping your product you aspie and that doesn't imply it's meant to be apart of the larger continuity from there forward. They saw how popular it got and tried to apply some of it to the DCU. Alan Moore and Brian Bolland wrote it as an Elseworld's story.
>>80773453
Well, a lot of people consider All Star Superman the definitive Superman story and it's non canon. same with the Dark Knight Returns (Though I guess some can argue Year One is too but that's also no longer canon sans the Post-Flashpoint).
>>80773468
No, it depends on arbitrary editorial mandates whose sole design is to make as much money as possible with the least amount of effort.
>>80773509
Do you have a single first-hand source to back that up?
>>80773545
So a business then.
>>80773032
>implying they're not currently working on that device so Babsgirl can never be marred by icky feelings ever again
>>80773619
Or a general-consciousness-shaping mass producer of art. However you want to define it.
>>80770157
This isn't about whether TKJ is canon. It's all about how DC is trying to pussify its canon so that casuals who luuuurve the new liberal batgirl shit don't throw bitch fits about their new wholesome family friendly batgirl being exploited and tortured
>>80773729
Damage Control
Let's not forget that Harley is no longer aloud to be a mass murder (or at least the subject is never touched apon again) and an idiot. She was just pretending to be both for Joker.
>>80773766
You can't pretend to be a mass murderer if you have actually murdered people
>>80773766
Harley was never an idiot tho...
>>80773729
I didn't knew Babs was a conservative.
>>80773766
Harley kills people all the time in Suicide Squad and made a huge mistake in the latest issue, those rules are just specific for her solo which doesn't particularly fit anywhere and might as well take place on Earth Harley.
>>80773729
It's all about feminist trend, to be honest. They got bash about this a lot lately so they pull this to tone it down. Cape shit is all about business.
>>80773804
She tolerates everyone being super liberal and loves her tranny hipster friends.
>>80773804
Oracle as written by Chuck Dixon definitely was. She refused to have handlebars on her wheelchair because she didn't want to accept help from anyone. Gen X, daughter of a cop, made sense.
>>80773811
Or in her own messed up head like how in her last series the violence was all cartoony.
>>80770157
The creative team claims all they did was implement ambiguity. Which is nice, in theory, and indeed, as they say, something the medium isn't used to. What they forget is, that there's a reason for that: Comic books creators don't work in a vacuum. Everything in a comic is foundation for the next creative team, who cannot let things remain ambiguous, because they have to further the story. They have to pick an interpretation. That is how the medium works.
So what we have here is a creative team that simply failed to understand how their own medium works.
>>80773786
True, she was smart enough to fuck her way to A's in collage, but not smart enough to know the diffrence between a veterinarian surgeon and a psychiatrist
>>80773852
Keep your voice down, if you start spouting radicalism like continuity is one of the backbones of the medium they'll come for you with pitchforks.
>>80772688
This brings us back to the question of why are we even talking about it then?
>>80773929
To be fair, the future team is fine since all they do is destroy the ambiguity it's not difficult.
And It's not so much the medium as it is the psuedo-genre of Big2 capeshit.
If this were a standalone story it'd probably be abe to maintain its ambiguity.
>>80772720
Moore BTFO lmao
>>80774063
Because it was made non canon and now autist are infuriated.
>>80774063
Ivguess people just assume the killing joke is somehow super important to Barbara.
>>80774150
An artist's tweets about how a reference to the most important moment in a character's history is deliberately ambiguous is no longer in continuity?
>>80774077
If you're going to nit pick at least spell correctly.
>>80774255
>assume
Name one event in Barbara Gordon's history that is more important.
>>80774300
Her becoming Oracle.
>>80774315
>what is a catalyst
>>80774399
You can't really give the killing joke credit for Ostrander's work. DC would've let babs fade into obscurity if it wasn't for him.
>>80774636
There is no Oracle without The Killing Joke. I thought you were trolling.
>>80770157
the article says it's meant to be ambiguous
>>80774762
Barbara being in a wheelchair wasn't necessary for Ostrander to turn her into Oracle. She was already retired, all he had to do was make her decide to approach fighting crime on the macro scale as opposed to the micro.
>>80772816
Remember Stewart has frequently worked with Morrison.
>>80774799
You don't need to read the article when the issue has been storytimed here at least twice since it was out, but people on /co/ who don't read comics still like to pretend as if they know what they're talking about so we get 100+ reply posts based on literal clickbait.
>>80774861
Are you genuinely trying to argue that overcoming the events of The Killing Joke isn't basically Oracle's origin story?
>>80775209
Yeah because it wasn't.
>>80773852
>>80774077
DC editorial is probably the one who will choose especially with Rebirth coming. Has little to do with creative teams who might not bother to mention it at all anyway in their run. It's not even actually relevant to the current arc.
Pretending like creative teams actually follow up on previous runs in the modern industry is laughable. The days where a writer will pass their notes along to the next so that the plots can get proper continuation are long gone. It's time to stop thinking about comics like TV shows. A previous creative team doesn't set a foundation, they merely bring another dish to the buffet table of things that could be sampled or ignored in future stories.
>>80770255
First post, best post
But Dick talked about it with her earlier in this run? Did they forget their own writing?
>>80775645
Maybe that was an altered memory.
>>80775345
>It's time to stop thinking about comics like TV shows.
Good because they're not fucking TV shows.
>>80775645
That's why it's not truly ambiguous.
