I wish there were more cartoons that were morally ambiguous.
Especially in the action genre where you find a nauseating overabundance of the very simple guideline of Manichean Good vs. Evil. The good guys are actuated by a desire to save the world from the bad guys who always personify some vile dimension of humanity. Greed. Avarice. Pride. Vengeance.
The good guys are always good, except maybe the one episode where they're not and in a cliche redemption story they learn the error of their ways and are accepted back into the fold to fight for justice, freedom, liberty and all things GOOD. At least once I'd like see a series where there is no definitive GOOD guys. Where both sides are fallible to vice and self-interest. Both sides have some reason to claim the righteousness of their convictions. Both sides must sacrifice principles in the abstract when faced by cold reality.
It doesn't mean that GOOD can't exist. Or that nobody can be a downright vile being, but to see that those qualities exist on both sides, like they do in real life.
>>79764972
I wish Kaneoya Sachiko had more stuff that was easily available for Americans to buy.
>>79764972
You've got adult cartoons like Bojack Horseman, Moral Orel, and Venture Brothers that examine morality a lot. What makes a good person, what makes a good person with flaws, and what makes a complete dickbag (damage optional) that likes to think he's one of the other two is a big subject in more pensive shows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tV29aD7dFI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45a1NTArG-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9FocQK9L4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjDPRaD5w5g
>>79764972
OP, you need to
1. read more comics that aren't written by the Big Two
and 2. read more manga
>>79764972
Then get to making, OP WHo knows, perhaps in a few years if you keep at it you'll be able to make it.
Just give in and watchmagical girlanime.
>>79764972
Who is this semen demon?
>>79764972
How many cartoons have you actually watched? There are more than you remember, not all of them are "good" or famous. The Legend of Prince Valiant, a show made for The Family Channel in the early 90's, is pretty good about morality, but there is a definite right and wrong side for most of the conflicts. Liberty's Kids is probably better for this, because it depicts actual historical events from a relentlessly evenhanded perspective and thus has to actually acknowledge the real scope of human psychology.
>>79765079
Kaneoya Sachiko's generic male figure.
>>79765131
Cadillacs and Dinosaurs has a little conflict over the acceptable scope and pace of development, but it's a very small part of a show that didn't last very long or have a well-developed central theme.
>>79765131
>Liberty's Kids
Don't give me that educational junk. That's made for kids who can't be arsed to read books.
>>79765039
Seen all of them. Don't have good things to say about Bojack except that it at least incorporated overarching narratives and mature themes.
VB is arguably the best original [as] show ever produced, and MO could arguably hold that spot as well, even though its first two seasons (barring Nature) are largely bland, formulaic and forgettable as well as heavyhanded with its scathing judgements.
>>79765236
There is nothing inherently bad about Liberty's Kids. History is important, and dramatizing it makes it more alive than books, which are available quite abundantly if the show sparks an interest in history.
Or do only shows made solely for their entertainment value by conglomerates count to you?
>>79765322
>History is important
I agree, that's why I like reading non-fiction. I'm not exactly the target audience of an ADHD riddled child or a lazy educator so it's not really up my alley.
>>79765039
Something notable about all the clips you've chosen is that they either aren't really about moral ambiguity, or otherwise approach their issues with a fundamentally cynical attitude.
The Bojack example takes the form of apology for not previously being willing to compromise, simultaneous shame for admitting they were wrong and desire to know if the other party sees them as being forgiveable. This unwillingness to see other points of view, until the last minute, is a very American attitude towards drama, and something that causes it to lack appeal to me.
On the whole, the clips in question are more about portraying the world as a cruel, unideal place, rather then throwing genuine virtue into fundamental conflict, which is far more interesting.
Anybody else deja vu or is it just me?
>>79764972
feels like im looking in a mirror
>>79765322
>There is nothing inherently bad about Liberty's Kids.
I was actually quite surprised by how it didn't exactly whitewash the American side. I was mainly actually bothered by how the kids didn't age; I recall the whole reason the main character didn't enlist was that he wasn't old enough, but he would have been latter down in the series.
Anyhow, just Watch more anime, OP
>>79765378
The central conceit of the show are the two main characters presenting the viewpoints of the opposing sides of the Revolutionary War. It is literally about presenting all sides as human, and about the toll the war takes on everyone - they do not gloss over British tyranny or the horrors of slavery or the treatment of Native Americans. It is everything you want in a show. The Bunker Hill episode is particularly good about the theme of common humanity, but the entire show is worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEtKZxoGie0
>>79764972
Full on cold reality sucks. I don't pay my internet provider to pirate fiction works in order to get the shit I already deal with everyday.
>>79765153
Nice.
>>79765402
Well yeah. If being good was easy, all those sad sacks wouldn't have become assholes.
>>79764972
I don't know about action cartoons, for that you'll probably have to switch to anime. A lot of older comedy cartoons were somewhat morally ambiguous though, like Pinky and the Brain, Invader Zim, Ren and Stimpy, Ed Edd n Eddy, Aaah real monsters, Grim adventures, etc.
I kinda miss that, today cartoon main characters are almost always good and nice and generically likable.
>>79765488
>black dick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFRdx7xFsrI
>>79764972
>>79765009
>>79765655
>tfw girls love anime guys that look like gross mexicans but wont give you a second glance
>>79765874
You can't see the imperfections on a drawing's face, the light is always in his favor, "hair" doesn't actually looks like hair, and so on. The only reason why it looks good is because it's generic, imagination fills he gap and that's why it looks "good".
>>79765629
>>79765753
This is exactly the 'American' attitude I was talking about. Rather than seeing moral ambiguity as a fundamental, natural aspect of reality, like the passing of the seasons, and capable of as much beauty, it is seen as a specific choice to portray the world as less then some imagined pure ideal where heroes are good and win because they are good. They 'grey' is treated as something lower, a place where anything is permitted and people do cruel dirty things because the horrible world makes them lesser people.
As such, in this worldview, tragic heroes are seen merely as people who have fallen short of some objectively positive trait in a lamentable way, as opposed to someone gloriously caring and independent of spirit to the point that they are able to test and warp the very nature of virtue. I feel sorry for those who have been raised to see things this way.
>>79765919
christ reading all of your posts you're literally the most pretentious person i've encountered today
>>79765874
Yeah and guys like Super Pochaco and Tomoko but wouldn't into a 3D girl anything like that.
News flash: 2D is infinitely better-looking and more attractive than 3D, especially for features that would be gross. Chubbies are perfectly proportioned and bags under eyes are endearing.
3D is overdesigned and flawed.
Honestly I never understood why people with insane amounts of personal power pay any attention to the common vermin, yet alone follow their slave morality.
Yeah I know how it sounds but consider you have actual power like Superman or the PPG's or any character that truly towers over humanity. You wouldn't give two fucks about them.
>>79764972
Stop watching anything related to marvel
>>79765928
Thank you, its appreciated.
>>79765929
then why do faggots by 3D shitty figures of them for hundreds of dollars to jerk off on to
CHECK AND MATE2D is a lot better, but I'm into girls with the qualities you've listed
unfortunately even the lowest-tier girls have the highest standards when it comes to a partner's looksLOL
>>79765935
because not everybody is a psychopath and in general really like helping.others.
>>79765919
it's not an american thing, it's a human thing. Read Hero with a thousand faces. Then stop acting like you're better than everybody else.
>>79765935
> You wouldn't give two fucks about them.
Why wouldn't I?
>>79765971
Forget it Jake, it's Kaziklu.
>>79765959
That's 2.5D. Still lacks the flaws of reality.You're not in deep enough, my friend. It's better here at the bottom.
>>79765960
The use of Hero with a Thousand faces to claim all myths amount to Hollywood movie style heroism is exactly as reductionistic, and American, as anything.
>>79764972
>I wish there were more cartoons that were morally ambiguous.
I've just watched a bunch of Gundam and it's pretty exhausting.
Thing is, morally ambiguous is what we have in real life.
>>79765919
I think I get what you mean, and why people keep telling you to better look for anime. Even in something as mainstream as One Piece you can see that. The protagonist's morals are a bit off when compared to a more abstract, greater scope sense of good, only doing good deeds for those that directly affect his life, and only acting in response to his friends and close ones. He didn't even give a fuck about releasing dangerous criminals to the world.
>>79765935
Because they were raised that way, duh. It actually makes me wonder about a world were Supes is raised with today's spechul snowflake, everything-you-do-is-perfect mentality.
>>79765929
>but wouldn't into a 3D girl anything like that.
You'd be surprised.
>>79765971
>>79765960
I can see what you mean, but consider the effects knowing and having power like that would have on your mental state. You can't project us into them so to speak.
>>79766105
I think he'd become a true tyrant to be honest.
>>79765919
The problem is Americans are overwhelmingly cynical and mistrusting.
We don't want to see a depiction of reality and choose to see happy, simple things because we don't think they exist in real life, yet are still idealistic enough to pine for it.
Having to lock your door is reality everywhere. Americans are safer than most of the world, yet would prefer another bolt on that door.
But Americans want to live in a place where you don't have to use locks. Americans want to turn on the TV and have neighbors just stroll into the story on a sitcom.
>>79766069
But that's exactly what the book is about, not myths, stories. We've been telling the same story around the world in different cultures for a millennium and it's not going to stop anytime soon. Robocop or Die hard share similarities with stories like Siegfried or Perseus.
Good vs evil or Man vs Challenge will never go away, it's what humans like hearing and writing about. To say it's an american thing is uneducated as fuck.
>>79765935
Superman was created by two depressed Jewish guys who were sick of reading about bad things happening in the newspaper and wished some awesome dude could swoop in and make everything right.
The entire point of superheroes is a normal person given insane amounts of personal power continues to be a normal person while making the world a better place when they can.
>>79765935
The difference is those characters are literally ideals made flesh. They aren't intended to act like real people. The PPG aren't even meant to be taken seriously.
>>79765919
I seriously hope you aren't claiming no culture in the history of man chose to portray and instill lofty ideals via fictional characters before some colonists got really butthurt at their overlords.
>>79766092
>Thing is, morally ambiguous is what we have in real life.
Yes and no.
The problem with Japanese moral ambiguity is its about a passive character who is forced into a heroe's place but actually giving no fucks/too messed up to take control of their lives, or a complete dick/literal monster who's there for the gain and just happens to be working for the moral side.
Americans love Walter White moral ambiguity, the fall of the hero into the neutral. Alucard is awesome but not what anyone thinks about when they want their perspective challenged, and Shinji is a character so weak he crosses from pitiable to someone Americans root for the death of.
Americans will take amorality only to a certain extent. Then there's a gap in the bell curve before they become love to hate characters like the little shit from GoT.
>>79766298
>Americans love Walter White moral ambiguity, the fall of the hero into the neutral.
I'm pretty sure Walter White was the fall of the hero into the straight up evil, not neutral, man. Like, by the end there wasn't a lot of moral ambiguity left. Just pity.
>>79766330
When was he ever a hero?
>>79766298
>Shinji is a character so weak he crosses from pitiable to someone Americans root for the death of.
The Japanese fans also hated him. Because he wasn't a badass like Ryouma and Gai and other Super Robot mains, mostly. People want their main characters, be they good or evil, to be badass and "cool", they want the traumatized teenager to kick ass and take names and spout one-liners. But Shinji was outrageously uncool on purpose, because he was just a messed up teenager.
Amusingly, on the whole, if you actually pay attention to what's happening, Shinji actually does pretty ok until like the very ending when everything goes to shit. But he's not smirking while doing it and he feels like shit from a lifetime of emotional distance and abandonment he has no idea how to get out of (because child psychologists are not a thing in Evangelion's universe), so he's just a useless whiner in the eyes of the audience.
>>79766377
He initially tried making some quick cash for his family with a harebrained scheme.
Those are vaguely good intentions.
>>79766377
Okay, fair, more like the fall of the well-intentioned person into the straight up evil. Walter starts the series with the intention of providing for his family after he's gone, which is a very understandable and fairly noble motivation that most people can empathize with. And then he goes WAY off the rails.
>>79766421
If I remember right didn't he know some super rich science guy in season 1 who offered to give him enough money to solve all his problems but he said no out of pride? I think he was always kind of a dick
>>79766445
Can't say I remember much, but I think that was after he was already in somewhat deep? Basically if he accepted that he'd be admitting that all the wrong shit he'd done had been all sorts of useless and unnecessary.
People are known to do some seriously retarded shit out of sunken cost fallacy. Prideful, uncompromising people like Walter even more so.
>>79766218
A large number of stories sharing similarities in structure doesn't mean everything should be seen as cape hero style antics, regardless of the world view it portrays.
>>79766266
Of course not. Simply that this doesn't need to be done by reducing things to a pure fight between the good and the monstrous.
>>79766502
>A large number of stories sharing similarities in structure doesn't mean everything should be seen as cape hero style antics, regardless of the world view it portrays
you're right, but that wasn't the original argument.
this was.
>This is exactly the 'American' attitude I was talking about. Rather than seeing moral ambiguity as a fundamental, natural aspect of reality, like the passing of the seasons, and capable of as much beauty, it is seen as a specific choice to portray the world as less then some imagined pure ideal where heroes are good and win because they are good
you just moved the goal posts.
