http://www.comicscube.com/2010/09/why-nightwing-never-worked.html
>A lot of comics fans would name Dick Grayson as one of their all-time favorite characters. But then if you ask people to name an all-time great Nightwing story, you'd be hard-pressed to get straight answers.
>Dick was so well-versed in his role as the Titans leader that that's what he basically became at his core. He was apart from Batman and the new Robin, Tim Drake, and he became, for better or worse, a guy who was more defined by his ability to lead and interact with others on such a personal basis than he was by being his own character.
>At the end of the day, I've come to realize that the problem with Nightwing in a solo series is that he was much too well-balanced.
>He was the stage in between Batman and Robin. He was Robin without all the teenage anxiety, and he was Batman with emotional maturity, but not quite as good.
>In other words, Dick Grayson was too well-balanced to really have a serious hook with which to grab his readers.
>>79636516
Oh well if comicscube.com says so then that's that's.
Half the people who like Batman can't name a good Batman arc, doesn't make their appreciation for the character any less valid.
>>79636625
That's only true for the fans who literally don't read any comics. A number of Batman's comics are often listed on "greatest graphic novels of all time" lists.
>>79636516
Most people when asked to name great comics stories go for self contained stuff: events, minis, OGNs. B-listers don't get those.
I think the reason Nightwing hasn't worked is Chuck Dixon was a hack and he wrote like half of the Nightwing comics that exist.
>>79636516
>and he was Batman with emotional maturity, but not quite as good
He was better than Bruce fuck you
>>79636799
This is a good point.
Really, most non A-list characters are most loved for their roles in ensembles, or cameos in other books. Nightwing has been at his best on the Titans, or appearing in Batman/Detective or even Robin. Hell, he's headlined a main Batman title TWICE.
The only problem with Dick is he hasn't been allowed to grow past Nightwing and the rough age of 20-something, even the times he was Batman were fleeting, until finally Grayson took the character in a new direction. Dick is my favorite DC character and I'm hyped for King taking his development even further and I PRAY he doesn't just get demoted to "Batman-flavored Spider-Man" again.
But actually I think Dixon is one of those writers like Jurgens and Casey that is not good at all but is pretty consistently readable.
When I absolutely HAVE to have my Dick fix, Dixon's is entirely sufficient, unlike Devin Grayson which I only read for a laugh.
>>79637211
Is pic related from prodigal? I don't remember it.
>>79638114
Actually from the Denny O'Neil Nightwing mini that was shortly after Prodigal.
>>79636799
If Dixon hadn't be spread so thin across like 5+ books while he was writing it then he probably could've done better.
But it's obvious he didn't have a set gimmick to differentiate it like he did with Robin and BoP and he used all the big, better stories for Batman and 'Tec.
His Nightwing is okay but it is pretty safe in terms of what's happening. Dick being a police officer was probably the most original and creative thing he did on the title.
>>79638114
I think it's from his first mini before Dixon wrote his solo
>>79636934
Canonically wrong.
>>79636934
>Dick being as good as Bruce
That will literally never happen, especially if his role stays Batman Jr
>>79636516
I'm so sick of this very recent idea that Nightwing didn't work.
Read the first 50 issues of his Dixon comic, retards. Fuck, I hate it when people who bitch about comics don't even read them.
>>79638689
It works, it's just unambitious and redundant.
Kinda like Dixon's Nightwing run.
>>79636625
That's just because he's famous outside of comics as well. You can know Batman through movies, cartoons or video games, but the same can't be said for Nightwing.
>>79638822
Explain in detail what was redundant about it.
>>79638899
>remark explicitly on why it is unremarkable
Maybe you should explain why it's great
>>79638899
>street level like Batman, GA, 'Tec, Robin, Batgirl, probably others...
>no powers like Batman, GA, 'Tec, Robin, Batgirl, probably others...
>Blockbuster is literally a Kingpin knock off
>Superior when and after he was an officer is basically Gordon but a woman
>all those assassins when he could've done and built up just one or two
>Oracle telling him what to do like BoP and the rest of the Batfam
And that's not getting into the more generic parts like the civilian love interest, having to balance that with his superheroing (before she got kicked out of the book), having to balance his jobs with his superheroing (before Grayson got him fired), and his problems with Batman coming back and being worse than ever.
The most original parts were his romance with Barbara and becoming a police officer, and he should've done more with both of those.
If it hadn't gotten caught up in a bunch of crossovers and if he hadn't built up the batfamily as much, then there wouldn't be much about this book to write home about, nor would there be any memorable stuff.
>>79639262
Also McDaniel's art was just fucking horrible then and early Land can't fool me.
>>79639262
I just want to add that I hate Bludhaven and everything it stands for. Why move out of Gotham into a knock off of Gotham with a stupid name? It didn't even stop him from participating in constant Bat-crossovers.
Too many of the things writers tried to "make him his own man" and "get him out of Bruce's shadow" just made him a bad copy of Bruce.
>>79639317
It's hard to understand how Dick got his reputation for sexiness with such terrible art.
>>79639608
Oh yeah that too
Bludhaven being just "Gotham but worse"
I think that's why I liked the idea of him being a police officer. There could've been more opportunities to fight it in a way Bruce can't or wouldn't. Maybe more like Gotham Central before Gotham Central happened.
>>79639705
Just imagine this cover if it were done by anyone but McDaniel.
>>79639705
Maybe he was just coasting off of NTT
>>79639773
If he's going to be in a Gotham like place, he should just be in Gotham, I think. It's a big city, he could carve out a neighborhood as home turf. Even being a cop, there must be precincts of the GCPD besides the one Bullock, and Montoya work at.
>>79639705
McDaniel's art may not be good, but the stylized and DEFINITELY sexualized Dick is really hot for girls.
Like think of how you, presuming you're a straight dude, might view something like Chris Saunders' art that clearly doesn't look like actual humans but is still extremely fap-worthy.
It's just exaggerating sexual characteristics.
Pic related isn't McDaniel (I've got a huge folder of his "male power fantasies" somewhere) but is still part of why Nightwing is just kind of the default hot superhero to a lot of girls.
>>79640162
That underwear looks off
>>79640162
I'm a grill and McDaniel's Dick just looks deformed to me. Janin's Grayson is the best at living up to the rep. I think people looking for beefcake in comics lower their standards due to the lack of good material.
>>79640355
It doesn't have any depth, as opposed to the rest of his body. It looks like someone just placed a flat, underwear-shaped piece of cardboard over his groin instead of him wearing it.
>>79640025
They could have just done what Camstew Batgirl did and make Gotham even more analogous to NYC, and make "Batman's Gotham" Manhattan and give him a different borough.
literally the only good part of Nightwing was the costume and him getting the name from Superman
>>79639991
Taskmaster was in DC?
>>79640638
It's the same with cheesecake. A lot of poorly drawn and laughable anatomy that isn't fappable. A lot of comic artists are just hacks who get hired because they can keep up with a monthly schedule.
Nightwing is just Daredevil without all the things that make him interesting.
>>79642097
I think that's what Dixon was going for.
>>79638689
It's because people are loving Grayson (well-deserved), but because /co/ is full of spergs, they are unable to like anything without hating everything else with the fury of 1000 autists
>>79638259
But it was way better than either Robin or Birds of Prey, though. No one really gave a shit about either of those two series unless Nightwing was involved
>>79642097
Dick was Daredevil even before the Nightwing thing.
In Earth-2, before the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Dick was a lawyer who was also a super-hero as the not-Batman of his universe.
>>79642436
>or Birds of Prey
I'm not really a big fan of BoP, but the idea that people only read it for Nightwing cameos is blatantly false.
>>79642521
I read it for Benes's art.
>>79638282
That's because everyone sucks off Bruce
>>79642364
I don't think anyone's said they hated it. Just that Nightwing was largely mediocre and Dixon's run is disappointing as a holy grail for the character.
>>79638689
>Fuck, I hate it when people who bitch about comics don't even read them.
/co/ is basically tumblr so what do you expect
>>79642436
That is wrong. Robin was his best Bat work.
I never liked the Nightwing identity.
Marv Wolfman basically took Superman and Jimmy Olsen's knock-off Batman and Robin identities and passed the Superman's poor man Batman identity off to Dick.
>>79642845
No, you're wrong.
>>79640638
I hang out almost exclusively with chicks and gay dudes and most of them are into McDaniel Nightwing.
Different strokes, but surely you can see how someone might find it fappable?
Men have been wanking to failures of anatomy for as long as there have been cartoons. Betty Boop looks like a developmentally stunted fetus, for example, but more snot has been spilled to her than to the common cold.
who's the blonde chick?
>>79638689
It's because people ship Bruce/Dick and hate that Chuck Dixon went with DickBabs instead
>>79643378
People ship father and son that fucking gross.
>>79639317
>Shitting on McDaniel
Kill yourself senpai
>>79643378
Except Dixon made Bruce into the biggest tsundere towards Dick.
>>79636516
I liked him in Bludhaven.
>More optimistic, cheery batman.
>Trying to also work within the law as a cop.
>Stuck in an even bigger shithole than gotham.
>>79637211
>hen I absolutely HAVE to have my Dick fix
heh
>>79636799
I'm not trolling or anything, but can someone explain to me why Chuck Dixon gets a bad rap? I enjoyed most of the stories that I read by him.
>>79644011
that anon probably dislikes Dixon more than most. The thing is that Dixon is a very serviceable writer. He's not terrible, but he's not that great either, which can be a problem when you get control of an entire family of comics for like 10 years.
> you'd be HARD-pressed to get STRAIGHT answers.
>>79644011
Dixon HATED the New Teen Titans and did his damnest to declare the franchise non-canon in his book.
Starfire? Never existed, even when Devin Grayson had her shacking up with Dick in her Titans run, Dixon flat out REFUSED to show her in the book or even acknowledge the living arrangement.
ALL of the Titans villains were declared off-limits by Dixon. We only got Deathstroke showing up AFTER Dixon quit the book.
He also did his best to shove Babs down readers throats as Dick's only one true love.
But on a side note, the current hate for Dixon comes from SJW cunts hating him because Dixon made some comments about how homosexuality shouldn't be shoved in readers faces and be treated like it was in the 80s and 90s, as subtext. Got him blackballed from DC.
>>79644178
I used to see the dude at conventions in florida and he'd have normal artist alley tables instead of guest booths. Always wondered why that was.
>>79644178
Pretty sure Deathstroke showed up for an issue or two during Dixon run.
He was wearing the shitty blue outfit with the ridiculous circle shoulder pads.
>>79644178
>Dixon made some comments about how homosexuality shouldn't be shoved in readers faces and be treated like it was in the 80s and 90s, as subtext. Got him blackballed from DC.
I'm sure /co/ will label me a SJW or whatever, but we probably shouldn't go back to treating homosexuality like we did in the 80s. Having a character be openly gay is not "shoving it down the reader's throat"
>>79644178
>Dixon HATED the New Teen Titans and did his damnest to declare the franchise non-canon in his book.
>He also did his best to shove Babs down readers throats as Dick's only one true love.
Did somebody say Nightwing Year One?
Though really the lack of Dick in Titans after he originally left to join the batbooks and the lack of Titans in Dick's book really puts Grayson in perspective. There are people whining about the current status quo being different and Dick being alone but worship Dixon's run, when they probably really, really would have hated it had they been fans then.
>>79644562
>Having a character be openly gay is not "shoving it down the reader's throat"
I disagree.
>>79644562
No, but making them into a stereotype that almost attacks someone for being homophobic is; however misguided they were in their intentions.
>>79644654
Is having a character be openly straight shoving heterosexuality down gay reader's throats?
>>79645122
Nope, because it is the majority and the norm. No one looks twice at that, it's expected.
>>79645224
You don't see the issue with keeping being gay as something that people should "look twice at" as strange?
>>79645264
The issue is that it hasn't been done yet. Writers inevitably fuck it up and it goes from being a comic about a character who is gay to a GAY character. It's always brought up, shoved down the reader's throat, shoehorned into existing characters and storylines and who wants to read about fags dating and shit? Other fags I guess.
Blacks complain that whites can't write them well, and blacks should be placed on black oriented books. I don't have a problem with that. I'd also like books about gays written by gays so it's at least authentic and targets the right audience.
>>79645481
I'd disagree that you can't explore what they do in their personal life as a homosexual. I'd agree that when they're nothing but a gay character to make grandios political statements it becomes a problem.
A character being openly gay is fine, when they're literally nothing but gay and that's their "thing" it's shit writing.
>>79636516
This was written before the Grayson series, but yeah, I kind of agree. I like the character, but his Nightwing runs were incredibly mediocre. He was much more interesting as Batman, and now a spy. It would be a real shame if the dragged him back to being Nightwing.
>>79644011
>>79644178
He just wanted to bring back some censorship like the CCA so comics could be more kid friendly and spoke about a lot of things wrong with modern comics. He's a "think of the children" conservative.
>>79643034
No, you are
>>79645481
>inevitably
>always
Really? There are tons of gay characters that aren't "shoved down the reader's throat". Midnighter and Apollo, for example. Their promiscuity and relationship drama is no different from any other character, except theirs is just with dudes. Whenever I see someone claim something is being shoved down their throat, it seems more like they're just uncomfortable that it's brought up or mentioned at all.
I mean can you even name a character who actually has no character outside of being token gay? I feel like we're at least a decade past that sort of thing, to the point where gay characters are common enough to not even stand out anymore. I'd think that the best place to be as a minority would be for nobody to actually care that you're a minority.
The train has long since moved on to trans characters, so maybe in a decade we'll have trans characters who aren't tokens or gimmicks.
>>79646116
>A character being openly gay is fine, when they're literally nothing but gay and that's their "thing" it's shit writing
Unfortunately, I can only think of two books who handle that well - Batwoman (at least when written by Williams III, didn't read other runs) and Midnighter.
Marvel, at least the current team, is terrible at handling this. The only good example I can think of is Shatterstar and Rictor written by Peter David. Northstar, despite his status of being the first gay character, gets shafted all the time, and don't even get me started on Iceman.
>Nightwing has no hook
Dick Grayson is the hook. You read Batman for dark stories and brooding, you read Nightwing for Dick Grayson
>>79648098
God, I wish that Wall Street Journal(?) article that apparently resulted in his blacklisting wasn't behind a pay wall.
>>79648179
>I mean can you even name a character who actually has no character outside of being token gay? I feel like we're at least a decade past that sort of thing, to the point where gay characters are common enough to not even stand out anymore. I'd think that the best place to be as a minority would be for nobody to actually care that you're a minority.
The thing is that neckbeards are always fixated on the gay aspect and can't see past that because that's how they view people in real life. They can only see characterization when said character is white, straight, and male because that's the "default". Anything minority is just "forced down their throats"
>>79644011
Because /co/ is full of manchildren who throw fits whenever their favorite character isn't doing anything super epic. Dixon's run wasn't legendary, but it was competently written, had great characterization, and was simply enjoyable to read. People just bitch that Dick isn't going around saving the world every issue. He also wrote a romance that was far more organic and mature than the usual "good guy wants the bad pussy" or the "she loves my alter-ego not me" crap
>>79636516
Depends on who you ask. If it's a comic book reader who actually reads comic, then he wouldn't say this character is their favorite just cause. If it's Christopher Nolan fan who confuses liking Batman with liking Nolan's trilogy, then I don't know what to say. I know a lot of people who say "Deafstroke is muh favorite!" "Green Lantern is muh favorite!", but they don't know shit about these characters.
Another fun thing is that it happens mostly to DC characters. When Marvel's literally who (in public's eye) characters like Winter Soldier get a movie they naturally become more popular. But Deathstroke? What's the goddamn appeal?
>>79636516
Nightwing is only my 3rd favorite identity of Dick's (I like Grayson, Dickbats AND Robin better), but I wouldn't say that it "never worked". It worked pretty solidly for a good while. But the things is, he's moved on from NW twice now (once as Batman in the preboot and once as Agent 37, obvs), and both times, the results have been really interesting and good for the character. The longer this goes on, the more it seems regressive to keep setting him back to Nightwing as if that's all he can be. It seems generic and boring by now. It's kind of a cool and unique feature of Dick Grayson that it's about his character and not the mask he's wearing, because he was "the Robin that grew up" first and foremost.
>>79643300
Tarantula is there, so is that from Grayson's run? Maybe Emily Washburn, the girl he fake married in one issue. Or someone remembered poor lost Lori Elton from his Robin days.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Emily_Washburn_(New_Earth)
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Lori_Elton_(Earth-One)
>>79648465
Dick grayson isn't very interesting.
>>79644073
A serviceable but not great writer is basically the definition of a hack. He churned out every single bat-book for a decade. No one can produce gems at that pace.
>>79638836
That's because of how they try not total take chances with Nightwing. Every new Batman cartoon starts at Bruce's early years as Batman and they reintroduce Robin, so most viewers associate with Dick Grayson being Robin, then while the viewers Peter off and the show finally has a dedicated fan base by the time they introduce Nightwing or the Nightwing element of the story no one who doesn't know him finds out who he is. Hell the Arkham games and Injustice have taught someone people that Robin isn't always Dick Grayson and that Dick can become someone else
I loved the Dixon/McDaniel book when it came out. Also, Dixon GA was great.
I just don't understand you people.
>>79648465
A character needs to have more than their existence as a hook.
>>79654738
Yeah I don't think people appreciated Nightwing OYL when the only thing it had going for it was DICK'S NOT DEAD
>>79640355
that underwear should come off
ahyuk ahyuk
>>79651570
Yeah, pretty much. Dixon's Nightwing was good good, but Dick's had better stories as Batman or Grayson.
>>79636516
>another clickbait site filtered
Thanks OP.
What about Dixon's Nightwing was actually worth keeping/bringing back?
>>79636516
Do the rape thing. That's all people ever talk about. He killed a guy and then he was raped.
>>79657941
Him being a police officer
Except actually do something more with it
>>79658067
No, no, the girl killed a guy and he went all brain broken because he felt responsible for letting it happen.
And if you listen to tumblr Tim Seeley is raping him every month.
>>79658276
Of course Seeley is raping him every month. He's even collaborating with Devin Grayson on it like he has in the past. I can't tell you any of the books they worked on together before, but it definitely happened.
Fuck it, can this just be a Comics Cube thread?
Stumbled upon this article a little while ago and thought about posting it to /co/.
http://www.comicscube.com/2016/01/whats-wrong-with-zatanna.html
>So with a catchy visual, a simple hook, and a not-exactly-low profile, how come Zatanna's limited to a bunch of guest shots, specials, and the occasional short-lived series?
>Let's take a look.
>They can't figure out what role to give her. I love Zatanna, but I think it's safe to say that I love the idea of her more than really any version of her I've ever read, and this is mainly because Zatanna's portrayal changes so much under each different writer that her role changes significantly every time. Here's a panel from one of her earliest appearances, where she's portrayed as a woman whose very presence brings peace.
>There's nothing wrong with her. That "bearer of peace" role didn't stick, but what did for a long time after was that everyone just so happened to love Zatanna.
>When there is something wrong with her, it's boring and unsustainable as a writing device. At some point, creators realized that there was nothing wrong with Zatanna, so she was given flaws. One of the earliest ones is that she had this random rivalry with Vixen because Vixen is a woman who flirts and is good at it.
>She has no real supporting cast, and the supporting cast they give her downplays her.
>Magic is hard to write. Traditionally, magic-based superhero comics haven't really worked, and a part of that is that it's just hard to set rules for and write consistently. Zatanna has the power to bring up the ghost of her dead dad, for crying out loud, so how can anything really be a challenge? At times she can breach the barriers between dimensions...
>...and then other times she's using a motorcycle to get around.
Well, /co/? What do you think?
>>79659623
I think they just haven't tried. They only gave her an ongoing once, and it ended with the reboot. She's not broken. It's not like they've pushed her really hard and no one's bought it.
>>79658328
Ah yeah, that conspiracy theory. Is that still a thing?
>>79660308
Wait that wasn't a joke?
>>79659623
I don't disagree
Zatanna has a good design and hook but I couldn't tell you what her personality is supposed to be or what her flaws are and I don't really know what to read for her other than SSOV mini or Dini's solo
>>79660494
She's fun and flirty and everyone wants to have sex with her.
>>79660344
I hope so.
>>79660308
>>79660344
It could've been a joke, but someone did for real claim that once. More than once, actually. Even Seeley's buddy Mike Norton stepped in to inform everyone it was bullshit.
>>79663593
lol
>>79663593
That's so stupid. It has to be trolling.
Though I love that it's been ten years since Devin Grayson did any regular comics writing and one can still summon her name to induce terror.
>>79663593
SeeKing's Dick isn't a competent detective?
I worry I'm this crazy about my favorite character.
>>79664135
I know I saw some people upset when Tim cameoed and Dick let him do half the work.
Then again they probably aren't aware that Dixon had Dick call Tim smarter than him all the time to justify Tim's existence.
>>79650611
>Dixon's run wasn't legendary, but it was competently written, had great characterization, and was simply enjoyable to read
Please, you're giving way too much credit. It was just OK, that was the best Dixon could ever do, just OK, nothing more than mediocre shit more often than not. Only 90's nostalgiafags worship his shit, and that's because he wrote a great ammount of 90's batbooks.
>>79664280
They must be part of the school that clings to NTT Dick, not Dixon Dick. Among the Titans, Dick's the smart one. Among the Batfamily, Dick's the dumb one.
>>79664388
They cling to whatever lets shit on Grayson hardest tbqh
>>79664400
Is the root of their issue the sexiness, or just that it's new and they can never let themselves be happy? Perez sexualized Dick quite a bit, and so did most of the Nightwing artists.
>>79664502
Both, I think.
They just have a lot of complaints in general, namely everything. But I think it stems from those two things you listed.
>>79664388
They cling to Winick's Titans pretty hard, too.
>>79664641
I thought it was Outsiders
But both are equally horrible and written by Winick so it could be either of them
>>79664641
What has to go wrong in your life to rail against anything different from Judd Winick's writing?
I'm including 90% of the Jason Todd fanbase in this.
>>79664641
I simply cannot believe anybody, even them, would cling to Winick's Titans.
>>79664388
Dick not being as smart as the others is an invention of the 90's. Pre-Crisis he was a Bruce level genius, but since Tim debuted they tried finding a reason to differentiate the two "Robins", and started comparing and contrasting their stats the way only neckbeards can. And that stuck.
Yes, I'm a mad Dickfag
>>79664388
Oh yeah they probably do like NTT, but them worshiping Dixon and his run as the pinnacle of Dick is something that occurs frequently.
>>79659623
I think the problem with Zatanna is that if you took her powers to their logical conclusion, she really quickly becomes absurdly OP, which is hard to incorporate into stories. She sticks around imo largely because she has a 1010 character design.
>>79664301
>that was the best Dixon could ever do, just OK
I still think Knightfall is a big highlight of the era and that was pretty much all Dixon.
>>79665260
It's pretty funny though because most solo characters just get exaggerated traits when they get on teams (Batman being an asshole, Diana being a warrior, etc). But because they had to find a way to make Dick, Bruce, and Tim fit in the same setting without being redundant, Dick just changed personalities completely.
And now you can have him show up in a Batbook and a team book the same week and he'll most likely have personalities that are almost opposite each other so he can fit in each book.
>>79665260
That's pretty much what I was getting at. It would be absurd to a 90s Dixon Batfamily fan to rail against Grayson for not making Dick smart enough.
>>79665491
If he's on a general team he represents Batman, therefore supergenius. Also he has to stand out and pull his weight among people with superpowers.
You even see dumb brute Bruce on occasion in a Batfamily book if there's Oracle or Tim there to do all the detective work for him.
>>79665645
>If he's on a general team he represents Batman
I know right
It's so funny reading 90s-00s Batman and the Titans '99, because Dick was constantly bitching about Batman being an asshole, secretive, unemotional, etc, but he did the exact same things in Titans.
>>79665985
Barbara was a total Bruce clone too but since Birds of Prey was half a bat book anyway the hypocrisy was more obvious.
>>79666510
That too
It's a shame all the batkids are reduced to Batman when they get on teams
