>DC's big event comics are considered to be genre-defining and responsible for changing the medium
>DC housed Alan Moore and Frank Miller during the times they made their most famous works
>DC's multiverse lore has been delved into constantly enough where it has now been clearly defined
>a majority of DC's golden age characters have been repurposed over the years and even made interesting enough to carry their own series set in modern times
I don't get it. When you read through comics history it seems like DC had a lot more going for it; the company had defining moments in every decade from the 60s to the 00s. The only thing Marvel seems to be universally renowned for is the silver age and being the incubators to Jack Kirby's career.
Not trying to start company wars, I'm just curious as to why Marvel never seemed to be relevant past the Kirby era unless someone was discussing the company's flaws?
>marvel
>not relevant in the bronze age.
Man I love DC but Marvel had the zetigeist by the balls.
Check out Chris Sims's articles, he does really solid analysis of the companies and how they shaped each other, but to tldr; it, Marvel figured out how to reach the market from kids to teenagers and it changed everything.
>>79010108
Marvel was more appealing to teenagers and during the Silver Age they were the "grown up comics" against DC's "kiddie drivel", so it sort of stuck. Marvel also cultivated a more cult-like mentality amongst their fans with shit like "Make Mine Marvel" and being a "Marvel Zombie". They've always appealed more to the lowest common denominator and therefore remained more popular. That's not to say there isn't anything great at Marvel but how often do you see X-Statix or Nextwave mentioned compared to shit like Civil War?
>>79010183
>Marvel was more appealing to teenagers and during the Silver Age they were the "grown up comics" against DC's "kiddie drivel"
And to think nowadays this is the reverse. Marvel is for little children and DC is seeing as for grown ups.
I have been binging on old comics lately. Niether one of the big two is worthy of their legacy right now.
I do think that DC events are better as a rule, but when it comes to individual long runs of high quality, I think Marvel wins hands down. Kirby/Lee FF/Thor; Conway ASM; Clairmont/Cockrum/Byrne/Cockrum X-Men; Miller DD, All those series were genere defining in ways no event could really hope to be. Fuck, the entire long form super hero soap opera was pretty much invented and defined in the FF run, alone.
>>79010183
>Marvel also cultivated a more cult-like mentality amongst their fans with shit like "Make Mine Marvel" and being a "Marvel Zombie"
We go from zombie to drone in 30 years
top backfire
>>79010108
Why the fuck am I not allowed to just read either company if I damn well want to?
What is this"You must pick a side and it better be my side faggot!" attitude that this board remains in?
>>79013510
But OP didn't say you can't read both
>>79013510
Pick a side faggot
>>79013510
It's called brand loyalty dumass.
You like a side, you buy their books, this leads to their making more money, and producing more books and they continue doing more business.
You hate a side, you do not buy their books, they make less money and either go out of business or retool their property until it is not shit.
One side does well and continues doing business because they consistently produce good work and it makes enough money for them to continue doing more good work. If a company is shit at what they do then hopefully their lack of quality leads to a lack of funds and then they go out of business and the shit quality books are no more. It is how the economy takes care of shitty production in a free market society.
>>79011322
>Niether one of the big two is worthy of their legacy right now.
These days their about maintaining valuable IP's owned my movie studios, but every so often a good comic manages to get out
>>79013510
PICK A SIDE YOU FAGGOT
>>79013510
Been a Marvelfag my whole life. Still love DC though. Hell, I've got a soft spot in my heart for most of the third placers as well.
>>79010108
Marvel appeals more to casuals, its that simple. Especially after the success of the MCU.
>>79010108
Marvel fans are battered housewives. When Marvel shit on them they eat it up and when marvel gives them a finger they act like they've been blessed.
DC fans are entitled as fuck. It's "my way or the high way". Not only that, but the lowest common denominator cares more about continuity than content, one of the big reasons Vertigo was formed was because they'd get countless letters asking how John Constantine or Swamp Thing can live in the same universe as the rest of the characters.
>>79011322
>but when it comes to individual long runs of high quality, I think Marvel wins hands down
I not only disagree, but I laugh at your opinion.
>>79019910
He's not entirely wrong. I think Marvel has better single author long-form runs, but DC has better consistent quality. Look at books like Green Lantern vol.2/3, or Wally West Flash. None of the individual creators did anything super groundbreaking, but they were pretty much always above average. DC also has better short-form, imo.
Being good =/= being important
>>79020017
He's entirely wrong
Ostander Spectre
Ostrander Suicide Squad
Morrison Doom patrol
Morrison Animal Man
DeMatteis Spectre
Justice League International
Morrison JLA
Jonah Hex
Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans
Levitz/Giffen Legion of Super Heroes
It's really not much of a competition.
>>79020142
First of all, great fucking taste. Second of all, does HalSpectre count? It was only 27 issues. And Animal Man was only 26. But honestly, I'm just bull-shitting to avoid companyfagging, I pretty much don't read Marvel, but aren't they're longform runs really, really long? I mean, how many issues was Claremont on X-Men? Or Kirby on FF?
>>79020425
Claremont was on the title form the mid 70's to 1990, pretty sure it's still the longest run
Kirby did ~100 issues of FF
Those are just some extremes though.
>>79010108
>DC's big event comics are considered to be genre-defining and responsible for changing the medium
Except no one reads DC except for Batman.
>DC housed Alan Moore and Frank Miller during the times they made their most famous works
Except no one reads DC except for Batman.
>DC's multiverse lore has been delved into constantly enough where it has now been clearly defined
Except no one reads DC except for Batman.
>a majority of DC's golden age characters have been repurposed over the years and even made interesting enough to carry their own series set in modern times
Except no one reads DC except for Batman.
Your argument is flawed. Only cape nerds read DC
>>79020628
>Your argument is flawed.
So is yours, you literally presented the same argument four times.
>>79020663
That doesn't mean the argument is flawed. you could argue that the delivery is flawed, though.
>>79020425
Longer run does not mean better quality.
>>79021102
I'm good at non-sequiturs too
>>79020425
>And Animal Man was only 26.
People have this weird belief that Animal Man ended when Morrison left, post-Morrison stuff, while different, is pretty good.
>>79021178
Pay attention, please
>>79011322
>but when it comes to individual long runs of high quality, I think Marvel wins hands dow
>>79021228
"Long runs OF high quality"
Not
"Long runs, that are better for being long"
You fucking simpleton.
>>79021219
Not really. Milligan did a really good story but Veitch's run sucked balls. Delano had interesting ideas but his run feels "too vertigo", worth the read though, unlike the Veitch run.
>>79021270
Jesus, are you retarded or just pretending?
>>79020425
talks about length.
>>79021306
Because the discussion was "Marvel is better at having long, quality runs from one writer/creative team". The anon replied with some runs that weren't particularly long from DC, so the other anon was pointing out that they shouldn't be counted in examples of long quality runs from DC.
Jesus, are you retarded or just pretending?
>>79021363
They're still runs, numbnuts. And they could never be referred to as limited series or minis.
>>79021399
Long. Runs. That's what the discussion was about.
>>79010108
>Implying Miller's DD isnt his best big 2 work
Pleb
>>79021443
Even if you take out two runs, point still stands.
>>79021399
Dude, just stop.
>>79021469
No, pleb, that would be Ronin.
>>79021519
Nice argument. Dude.
>>79021219
Hes literally talking about Morrison's specific run retard
>>79021584
>specific Marvel/DC thread
>THERE ARE OTHER COMICS SHITLORD
whut
>>79021363
That runs into the issue of how you define "long runs." Is it by issue or by years on the title? Are hiatuses counted? Are relaunches or retitles?
>>79021497
Your original point was "Longer run does not mean better quality". Now you've shifted the goalposts to "B-but the other runs still count"
No-one was saying "Those runs are all shit (Because they're not long, probably!)". You're just consistently wrong.
>>79021691
The point was that Marvel doesn't do longer high quality runs better than DC. You're the one that keeps moving the goal posts and making up rules as you go along.
>>79020537
Cool company war, bro.
>>79010108
COMPANY WARS
GET IN HEREI'm a Marvelfag and I don't get all the "my company is better than yours" shit.
>>79020628
>he thinks casuals read Marvel
Fucking kek
How are Iron Man's sales?
>there are people on /co/ RIGHT NOW who think that indieshit is relevant in today's market
>>79021818
Irrelevant because there's no Iron Man movie. There's a bunch of Iron Manlet movies, but people watch them for Robert Down Syndrome Jr.
>>79021847
It's taking over trade sales, friendo.
>>79021778
Waid's Daredevil
Remender on UXF
Gillen on JiM
They certainly do longer good runs.
For DC unless you are Johns, Morrison or Snyder, you aren't going to say long on a book.
>>79011322
Did you forget about DC's massive stable of good runs including some genre defining ones?
>O'Neil Batman/Green Lantern-Green Arrow/Question
>Ostrander Suicide Squad/Spectre
>Moore Swamp Thing
>Morrison JLA/Animal Man/Doom Patrol
>Levitz Legion
>Giffen/Dematteis JLI
>Wolfman NTT
>Ennis/Delano Hellblazer
And O'Neil defined the Superhero Soap Opera in GL/GA.
O'Neil defined Batman, the most popular comic character
O'Neil defined team books in JLA
O'Neil is the most influential superhero writer. Kirby the most influential artist with Adams a close second
>>79021889
I'm sorry, friend. But I look through the thread and I see more long run from DC.
>>79021889
>Waid's Daredevil
Went to shit after the Ikari arc.
>Remender on UXF
Went to shit after the Dark Angel arc.
>Gillen on JiM
I'll give you this one. Kinda went to shit with YA but it's debatable whether it counts.
>>79021889
>Waid's Daredevil
Overstayed it's welcome, this is not a good example because it should've ended earlier.
>>79021889
>Gillen on JiM
Isn't this under 30 issues too? like 24-26?
>Man, /co/ is so full of Marvelfags!
>>79021915
>And O'Neil defined the Superhero Soap Opera in GL/GA.
No, Claremont did in X-Men.
>>79019864
>DC fans are entitled as fuck.
How are we entitled? Because we don't want stupid internet jokes and gender politics in our capeshit? Because we don't want extraneous shit where it doesn't belong?
>It's "my way or the high way"
If this was true then DC would have kept the Batgirl Killing Joke cover
>the lowest common denominator cares more about continuity than content
Because continuity is the most basic fucking thing to follow, especially when you live in the internet age. Drones don't realize this because Bendis has been writing their core titles for ten years and he remembers barely anything short of wiping his own ass.
>Vertigo was formed was because they'd get countless letters asking how John Constantine or Swamp Thing can live in the same universe as the rest of the characters.
No, they formed Vertigo so they could continue having swear words and naked tits in their books without a billion parent groups coming down on them with MUH CHILDREN complaints.
>>79022118
Oh my lawd
>>79022050
That was 5 years later you pleb
>>79022118
>If this was true then DC would have kept the Batgirl Killing Joke cover
What point are you trying to make? DC fans got angry at a cover done by a well know artist and called for it to be pulled despite there being people that might've liked to own that cover. The DC fans threw a fit, or in other words "my way or the high way"
Rest you're just trolling.
>>79022118
>No, they formed Vertigo so they could continue having swear words and naked tits in their books without a billion parent groups coming down on them with MUH CHILDREN complaints.
More important, to give artists and writters a share of their OC money so they would not end up in indie shit.
>>79022217
>DC fans got angry at a cover
No, it wasnt fans, it was the PC internet police (the same that loves marvel shit). And the Faggot writter that shat on the artist.
>>79010108
Marvel marketed themselves as the "cool kids on the block" since day one. Always making use of hyperbole and sensationalism to get attention. It was thanks to Spider-Man and Wolverine that Marvel still exists today. Now Mickey Mouse is carrying the whole brand on his back, so Marvel has nothing to worry about anymore.
>>79022196
It was the real definition. GL/GA was much simpler and didn't run as long.
>>79022452
Plus, GL/GA wasn't really soap opera, it was Superhero political commentary.
It was pretty awesome, though. As much flack as stuff like this gets today, it was pretty groundbreaking at the time.
>>79010108
fixed
>>79023149
Untrue, the first Crisis' consequences are still felt as recently as in Multiversity.
>>79023364
Ok, start naming characters.
Also reminder that Supergirl was killed off because of movie.
>>79023149
>Jan dies and comes back to life
>Johnny gets an alien gf that he never sees again
>'development'
You do realize we would never have gotten Captain Marvel or any JSA stuff if not for COIE
>>79023525
Wally West as the Flash
The Bwa-Ha-Ha era of the Justice League, which irrevocably defined Booster Gold and Blue Beetle.
Byrne Superman
Perez Wonder Woman
Post-Year One Batman
Post-Hawkworld Hawkman and Hawkwoman
The JSA as the JLA's predecesors and inspiration
Fawcett characters in the DCU
Charlton characters in the DCU
Quality characters in the DCU
Should I go on?
>>79024839
Oh, forgot Jason Todd as Robin. Pre-Crisis he was just Dick Grayson 2.0, he only became a brat after he got a new Post-Crisis origin.
>>79024839
Now, how many of them traveled to the new universe after Flash Point?
>>79024991
What does that have to do with anything? You asked me if it had any consequences to certain characters, it did. Stop moving the goalposts. But to answer your highly inappropiate question:
>The Bwa-Ha-Ha era of the Justice League, which irrevocably defined Booster Gold and Blue Beetle
>Post-Year One Batman
>Fawcett characters in the DCU
>Charlton characters in the DCU
>Quality characters in the DCU
>Jason Todd
Also, the Monitor (and later Monitors) and Anti-Monitor.
>>79024991
Booster Gold and Blue Beetle are in JL3K1 so I guess that's something, along with Guy who's now Gal Gardner because giving him a vagina was a joke that still hasn't lost it's humor. Superman literally has an ongoing anon right now and slated to appear in Superman #50
>>79018303
This. Been a DCfag all my life, but still love Marvel. Specially bronze age Marvel.
>>79025240
I said that the characters don't matter anymore.
You said I was wrong.
I said to list characters.
You listed characters that don't matter anymore.
So the current Jason Todd is the same Jason Todd that was in crisis?
>>79025363
It laid the groundwork for the same kind of characterization that he has nowadays. Without Crisis Jason Todd would still be just a Dick Grayson clone.
Long runs from Marvel off the top of my head:
Simonson's Thor
PAD's X-Factor (and related) and Hulk
Pak's Hulk and Hercules
Claremont's X-men, New Mutants and Excalibur
Carey's X-men and X-men Legacy (those were more or less two different runs from the same series/franchise)
Byrne's FF (though that definitely has its faults), X-men, She-Hulk (character defining to this day), Alpha Flight and Namor
DnA's various cosmic related works
>>79023149
Isn't there an event featuring the main baddie from the one on the left being published right now? Really asking, haven't been following Darkseid War.
Both of those are classics
>>79025418
yeah, it even referenced CoIE and other past DC Events and how Convergence was just filler.
>>79025408
True, but they aren't the same character.
the struggles and challenges each charter overcame is no longer a part of the current characters.
It may have laid the ground work, but there is not getting around the fact that any Jason Todd you read today would not be the same one you read in crisis.
That being said, I admit that I overlooked pre-Flashpoint Superman, so I guess that is one character that still matters.
>>79025581
>I read comics for the character development
Fucking lol
Newsflash kid, every time a new writer takes over a book they undo everything the previous writer did, that's why Johnny Storm is still a cocky womanizing asshole even though he's already "settled down" with god knows how many women.
>>79023149
Also, only one of them cause a change that even the most basic fans know about.
The Symbiotes
