>Secret Wars 3
>3 years of build-up in Avengers and New Avengers
>People already bitter
>Final Crisis
>Build-up includes, but is not limited to:
>Crisis on Infinite Earths
>Animal Man
>JLA
>Seven Soldiers of Victory
>Infinite Crisis
>the climax of 52
>all in all, over 100 issues across over 20 years.
>Praised by all as the greatest event of all time.
Explain this /co/.
>>78954012
One sucked and one was okay I guess.
>>78954012
>Final Crisis
>Praised by all as the greatest event of all time.
Who are these people praising it as such?
>>78954012
>Only on /co/™
People fucking praise Secret Wars. While most people consider Final Crisis one of the most shitty events of all time. Keep deluding yourself.
>>78954012
>Explain this /co/.
Each one of the stories you mentioned as a build up to Final Crisis, work on their own merits. Done.
>>78954079
People who actually understood it. Almost all criticism of it boils down to "I didn't get it, and need an adult to hold my hand", often by the critic's own admission.
>>78954012
>>Crisis on Infinite Earths
>>Animal Man
>>JLA
>>Seven Soldiers of Victory
>>Infinite Crisis
>>the climax of 52
>>all in all, over 100 issues across over 20 years.
These were actually good on their own merits
Avengers and New Avengers were like story outlines that he forgot to add the good parts into
Marvel has never had an event that was on par with any DC one except perhaps, Annihilation and Thanos Imperative.
Prove me wrong faggots.
One's a story that builds organically off of previously established works that themselves stand up on their own as complete stories.
Hickman's build-up was just empty promises that the conclusion failed to deliver upon.
>>78955135
this black gets it
Infinite Crisis was the last good event published by DC and the last good thing that Geoff "I'ma edge this shit up" Johns has written.
>>78955135
this tho
I'm not saying FC was good or not, but Hickman failed to deliver
My disappointment comes from a point that it came down to the same old ego-driven slapfight between Reed and Victor...
where is the story time thread???
>>78955260
>Sinestro Corps War
>not good
>not better than Infinite Crisis
Admit it anon, you just hate fun.
>>78954339
Truth. I'm one of Final Crisis' top cheerleaders around these parts, but many of the tie-ins and lead-ins were good enough to stand on their own.
Secret Wars was a mismanaged mess. Marvel and DC are too focussed on events that make news first and foremost. Having a worthwhile story that works by itself is of far secondary importance.
God Doom is defeated and the universe rest, by getting Molecule Man to give the power to Reed
>>78955538
We know, we read it too, anon.
>>78954012
Well one was a good, epic scale event story where the "build up" was done in several acclaimed, self contained, well liked runs on different comics in the span of two decades. You were never expected to read it all but if you had, it gave the story additional value.
The other is a three year run on two books and couple of events where the interest and hype from the very beginning was based on the notion that it is all connected and directly building up to a single converging plot line down the line, and there was going to be a massive pay off when you reached the end. Then you read Secret Wars and turns out 95% of what the 80+ issues were spent building the culmination of the big, epic final chapter of the story didn't really matter at all, all the significant plot points largely happen off panel and the big story ends up being just another generic Reed vs Dr Doom, just done in a new flashy gimmick backdrop.
Final Crisis told an interesting story as a self contsined thing, Secret Wars was specifically built with the promise that all the shit that you spent three years reading would somehow connect and tell an engaging story as a whole, only to discover you could have just waited three years and then read a wikipedia summary because the story itself can't even bother doing anything with anybody who isn't Reed and Doom.
Secret wars isn't just the avengers books though. It basically starts with hickman's fantastic four run.
Are there any torrents with all the tie-in books starting from Hickman's FF run? I've found a couple that just have all the SW tie-in books.
>>78955660
it is so lame.
>>78955777
Secret Wars chronology by tthodddy in 5 parts, although only 4 is ready now. It has everything, including Maker story and old SW
>>78954012
Organic development vs mechanical planning motherfucker.
>>78956411
Just what I was looking for, thanks, friend.
>>78954012
>Hickman
More like Hackman.
>>78956494
Gene Hackman? I love that guy! Best Lex Luthor by far!
>>78954012
Allowing any characters to live was essentially pointless. All you basically needed was Reed, and that was it.
So what happened to Thanos, Dr. Strange, and anyone else killed in the event? I don't think it was said or shown that they came back, even though they're clearly still alive after the event.
>>78956551
Just picture Reed hitting a big red button marked 'RESET' so hard, it cracks. That's essentially what happened.
>>78954012
>>Crisis on Infinite Earths
a self contained event written by someone with no conception of final crisis, overall a good event in its own right and probably the most respectful event ever done
>>Animal Man
considered to be a masterpiece of cape universe comics in its own right, a full story from beginning to end that was probably written before final crisis was ever conceived of
>>JLA
idk, never read it
>>Seven Soldiers of Victory
interesting as fuck project that can be enjoyed by people who have no intention of reading final crisis. spotlighted characters that don't tend to get a spotlight and enjoyed by many.
>>Infinite Crisis
idk never read this
>>>the climax of 52
52 is a widely praised story with a really interesting format and concept that you can read without reading final crisis
do you see the difference? The 3 years of build-up in Avengers and New Avengers is not composed of some of the greatest self-contained marvel stories ever published
>>78954012
>>Crisis on Infinite Earths
>>Animal Man
>>JLA
>>Seven Soldiers of Victory
>>Infinite Crisis
>>the climax of 52
>>all in all, over 100 issues across over 20 years.
These were all pretty solid on their own. Final Crisis? Well better than SW3, but "greatest of all times" ? You're making this shit up, right?
>>78956629
Name a single event better than Final Crisis. Hard Mode: Name a Marvel event that's even 1/10th as good as Final Crisis.
>ITT
>>78956677
Personally, I'd say AvX, Messiah Complex (and the followups) and Annihilation. Those are also about the only good large-scale crossovers that Marvel have put out in the last few decades though.
>>78955135
How can he deliver when other writers extort him into getting what they want?
>>78956745
>AvX
>good
AvX is one of their worst, anon. It's 12 issues, and only the two issues written by Hickman are anything but awful. Ironic, I know.
Did you mean AXIS?
>>78956745
How could AvX be fucking good, it was primarily votes.
>>78956893
No, I meant AvX. I read it after it was done, along with some of the tie-ins, and it read a lot better than when it came out individually. All in all, I enjoyed it more than Flashpoint, Secret Invasion or most other crossovers I've seen in the last decade or so.
>>78956972
I ignored the Vs. issues as nothing more than fanservice. Some of them were pretty funny though, I'll give them that much.
>>78956525
WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!!!!!!
Say what you will, but the page at the end with Miles Morales and Molecule Man put the biggest smile on my face
>>78954012
What do people think about the fact that Marvel's main world is no longer called Earth-616? It's now and forever gonna be called Prime Earth.
After all these years Tom Brevoort finally got his wish
>It's effectively a new multiverse. The biggest and most important thing here that nobody in the world will like, and that I'm the only one that keeps poking at, is the fact that the Marvel Universe is no longer the 616. I don't know if by the end of "Secret Wars" #9 there are 616 universes yet. There will be an infinite number of them. Realities that we've known and new ones that we've never visited before are being constantly created, and then mapped and explored by Reed and his family.
>http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-brevoort-discuss-secret-wars-end-ushering-in-the-new-marvel-universe
>>78958122
People are still gonna call it 616 regardless.
>>78954012
It had a happy ending. Even Doom smiles.
>>78958122
Don't believe Brevoort's lies. It's already been referred to as Earth-616 in universe.
>>78958122
>Realities that we've known and new ones that we've never visited before are being constantly created, and then mapped and explored by Reed and his family
>phenomenal premise for an F4 book
>no F4 book
Just MCU my shit up, family.
>>78956720
kek
>>78958292
Where?
>>78958366
Web Warriors
>>78958122
>>78958320
>Now, there are some people who will look at this ending and all they'll see is Marvel putting Reed, Sue, Franklin and these other characters on a shelf because of movie rights. Is that fair? Is this really a shelf?
>Brevoort: It's a shelf in that the Fantastic Four as a unit are now split up. Ben and Johnny are in "Guardians," "Inhumans" and "Uncanny Avengers," and there isn't a "Fantastic Four" title. None of these characters are dead, though. Therefore, the future will inevitably and invariably get to a point where we'll see more of Reed, Sue, Franklin, Val, Dragon Man and the Future Foundation. We will get to that point. I don't know that we'll get to it quickly. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. Hopefully we'll get to it when you least expect it so their reappearance on the Marvel stage can have some resonance to it.
>>78958380
They presumably didn't want to spoil the ending to Secret Wars
>>78954012
Some people liked one and disliked the other. And the reverse.
>>78958122
Like I said in another thread
>Yeah but he's still wrong and Secret Wars wasn't a reboot. I have no idea what he's getting at there anyways, if you replace infinity with infinity, wouldn't it contain the same things?
Secret Wars was boring shit that shouldn't even exist
>>78958691
But anon, I liked both.
I'll take Final Crisis over Secret Wars.
Mind you, I had fun with SW and Hickman's Wild Ride. FC just went there and did it though...Superman and the Legion of Supermen saving the day was tops. Reed saving the day? Meh. Even giving Doom the powers of a god never felt like the threat that Darkseid and Mandrakk posed.
>>78958122
Why does Brevoort hate 616 so much?
>>78960297
He thinks it's obscure knowledge that hardcore comic fans use to gatekeep newcomers from comics. "That's not 616 so it doesn't matter!"
>>78960363
Oh, okay. Well, tell him SORRY YOU DIDN'T LIKE IT! for me, will ya?
>>78955260
Infinite Crisis was hot garbage and far inferior to Sinestro Corps War and Final Crisis.
>>78956677
Annihilation and Thanos Imperative were both better.
What was the point of him traveling back in time again?
>>78960363
There's also the whole "its the mark of the devil and was used as the designation only in Marvel UK, which was being ran completely separately from Marvel Comics proper and was only used so Moore and his editor could take the piss out of Marvel in a barely canon comic" thing.
Brevoort has some proper reasons for not liking the 616 designation, but we're over 20 years too late to change it now.
>>78959748
who else /idort/ here?
>>78960505
This and what does it mean for the Black Panther in Ultimates?
>>78960513
Honestly most of his reasons come off as silly to me but I'm biased. It really is way too late to change it now, heck have you seen the confusion over All-New All-Different? If anything this makes the problem WORSE!
>>78960505
>>78960602
Marvel needed to reverse Hickman destroying Wakanda and killing literally everyone except T'Challa. Marvel was just restoring the status quo.
You faggots fucking hate everything when it first comes out and then praise it out the dickhole as soon as the next great thing comes out so you can hate on that.
>>78960505
To cycle back to the first scene of New Avengers to show that the 616-8 timeline is the same as the 616-7 one except without the incursions having happened, since he went back to the moment of the first incursion on 616 and shows it not happening. Also to establish why Wakanda is back to its former glory post-SW.
>>78960505
>'Everything Lives'
Can't really say that if the greatest nation in the world has been reduced to a single person.
>>78960657
That's not true. For movies, it tends to be the opposite (praised when it comes out but hated 2+ months later), and even for comics, we loved AXIS when it came out, yet the boards been filled with people saying that it was awful all day.
>>78960684
>Everything lives
TURN THE ENGINES ON! THE UNIVERSE WILL STAY TOGETHER!
>>78956745
>AvX
>Good
>>78960363
>616
>obscure knowledge
>gatekeeping
Is he a SJW?
>>78961178
Not that I know, he just thinks it'd turn people off by marketing the mainstream universe as Earth-616 for a handful of reasons. There's also the time he talked about it distancing Marvel from the "world outside your window" image they want.
>>78960675
Does this time travel shit mean anything for stories that took place during the incursions? They're still doing those Starlin OGNs that are supposed to take place before secret wars but I guess nobody at marvel gives a shit about them enough to care.
>>78955260
>Infinite Crisis
>Good
It wasn't great, but it wasn't entirely awful either. Felt more like the final chapter to the multiple plot threads going on at the time with the:
>Rann-Thanagar war
>Villain Army Society
>OMAC stuff
>And the Specter going ABSOLUTE MADMAN
Honestly, Infinite works best as the book version of critiquing opinions of the post-COIE universe.
>Superboy Prime: "My old canon is better, why doesn't DC cater to me!" as he becomes the 90s Iron Age type of character he's so vehemently against.
>Superman-Two: "I just want my old home back. The Golden Age of Heroes was great, there wasn't any gritty edgy crap involved at all" and yet Superman-New Earth proves him wrong, in that his world still had it's problems too.
>Alexander Luthor: "Fuck it, I just want a new canon completely. I'll bring the multiverse back so I can fuck around with continuity like I'm god." After a lot of factors made the post-COIE canon questionable, like Hawkworld fucking with Hawkman lore, Zero Hour not really fixing things, etc, Infinite Crisis was intended to fix what still was broken and eliminate any contradictory stories.
