So I finally got to see this movie and, honestly, it sucks
It's not really awful but it's nowhere near good either
What went so wrong?
>>78659695
>Whedon makes movie way longer than it was supposed to be
>has to cut a shitton of scenes that give context and pathos
>decides to keep the horrible as fuck bwxhulk and excessive quipping scenes instead of the actually important ones
Basically the jist of it. The movie had too much going on and Whedon prioritized the quips and godawful "romance" over scenes that would have actually added to the movie instead of detracted.
I gave funny Ultron a fair chance but he just fell flat by the end.
And while I understood his dumb plan it doesn't seem like it was obvious enough to the rest of the audience that he wasn't trying to kill everybody, just create a disaster and see who survived.
>>78659695
>So I finally got to see this movie and, honestly, it sucks
It's like a C+/B- depending on your generosity.
>It's not really awful but it's nowhere near good either
Pretty much, yeah.
>What went so wrong?
Script needed another pass. Lots of interviews revealed Whedon was unwilling to streamline parts like Hawkeye's house, Thor's vision quest, etc, etc.
The film has like 3 1/2 acts, which should be a giveaway what was wrong.
>>78659760
Honestly what was up with that retarded Hulk/BW romance? I swear it was out of fucking nowhere, Hawkeye or Cap would've made more sense if they wanted a romance for Widow.
Was it just Whedon's OTP and no one from Disney had the balls to tell him it makes no sense and to keep his fanfiction private?
>>78659695
Bad Ultron and SJWs
>>78659695
>Why did this movie suck so much?
>It's not really awful but it's nowhere near good either
make your damn mind up ya drama queen
>>78659760
We've seen the deleted scenes. While they add to the movie, they aren't that essential to the improvement of the narrative.
Honestly, people were just too hyped for it. The same backlash will happen to BvS and CW this year.
>>78659819
It was teased in "The Avengers".
Basically, Black Widow and Hawkeye were the intended pairing, but Whedon wanted to show that men and woman can be friends without being romantically attracted to each other, and decided to pair her with Banner, since he's confined to the Avengers movie, while Captain America would both require the relationship carry over to his own movies, and interfere with the intended pairing of Steve and Sharon Carter.
However, the relationship was originally pretty much one-sided and ended before it even began, but that was changed, reportedly during the test-screening blitz.
>>78659845
People are not that hyped for Civil War actually, at least on /co/. Because of AoU people have low expectations here and it might surprise /co/ after all.
AoU was so hyped because it came after Winter Soldier, Guardians and Daredevil. It felt like a downgrade in quality after those 3.
>>78659884
We saw that men and women can be friends with Cap and Widow in TWS though. It would've made mich more sense if they went with Hawkeye/Widow, especially since it happened in the comics too.
>>78659947
Well, it's too late to complain now.
Okay, so this movie was bad
But how would anyone fix it?
Could it be fixed or was it a bad idea from the start?
>>78659695
Too many cooks (too many cooks)
Too many cooks (too many cooks).
It's not a coincidence that after this movie didn't perform up to expectations, Kevin Feige demanded - and got - the Marvel comics department banned from consulting on the movies.
There are just too many things they had to put in, like Thor's visions, that make the film a mess.
Also Whedon probably contributed to the mess by trying to jam in Wanda and Pietro to a movie that didn't really need them (it's obvious Marvel didn't want them, they chose not to use the ending where Pietro lives and they haven't featured Wanda in the promo art for Civil War). I can't really blame him for that one though, because I love the old school Avengers like he does.
>>78660046
Pietro was always meant to die, it wasn't a choice.
And reportedly they can't appear in merchandising as part of the shared rights with Fox.
>>78660084
Whedon said he shot two endings, one where Pietro recovered and was with the team at the end. To give Disney the option of keeping him around if they wanted to, but they didn't want to.
anyway, anyone who says this movie is bad just doesn't get it or is blinded by the quip meme. it's called comic relief. if you want a movie that doesn't want to admit their source material is comic books go watch BvS.
>>78660166
No, Pietro was always meant to die. The alternative ending where if Disney went back on the plan, which they didn't.
I expected Ultron to be a smart menacing Terminator. Instead I got Robo Tony Stark.
>>78660466
Also false advertising. The trailers made it look like a serious movie where shit gets real.
>>78660466
Ultron was never cold and emotionless. People need to understand this.
>>78660211
I didn't mind the quips, I just didn't think the characters' motivations made sense a lot of the time.
Characters were given really thin reasons for doing what they were doing: Wanda and Pietro's motivation for teaming up with Ultron, Banner and Widow's motivations for the way their romance played out. Tony's motivations were so confusing that are still arguing about whether he was under Wanda's spell or not.
The movie explained everybody's motivations but there's a difference between expelaining something and making it make sense.
I partly blame just trying to get so many plots into one movie, and partly the too-many-cooks problem which probably caused a lot of the motivations to become even more confused than they would have been. But watching this movie is like watching an Italian opera where people run around stabbing each other and jumping off parapets for reasons that you can barely understand.
>>78660466
Terminator progressively learned to be human. Ultron was an evil Tony Stark from the beggining, he was set in his method of how to save the world. even if he knew he was going to commit extinction to save the world, not humanity.
>>78659923
Doesn't matter, AoU is still one of the most profitable movies of all time fat ahead of any DC movie.
It's still one of the most amazing movies of all time and deserves its place in the top 10 movie hall of fame.
>>78660500
How come no one's ever written an opera about super heroes? Well, I guess Wagner's Siegfried sort of counts.
>>78660500
I don't know, I felt it was rather obvious.
Pietro and Wanda hated Stark and, by definition, the Avengers, and wanted to help Ultron destroy them because they believed in his ideology that, without the Avengers, Humanity would improve. Once they find out he's actually planning to destroy the entire human race, they decide to stop him.
Banner felt comfortable with Black Widow, and she liked him because he was different from all the other men in her life. However, the deleted scenes made their relationship much more complex and interesting.
Stark wants to protect the world because he was traumatized by the Chitauri invasion and terrified it could happen again, and at the same time he wants Iron Man to no longer be necessary so he can spend his days creating shit and boning Pepper, and believes the Avengers want the same, so he creates Ultron, it blows up in his face, and he keeps digging himself deeper in an attempt to clean his mess.
>>78660536
>It's still one of the most amazing movies of all time and deserves its place in the top 10 movie hall of fame.
>>78659695
What is taste?
Does it differ?
Is it subjective?
>>78659695
apparantly it was originaly much darker and serious.
but a test audiance found it too dark, so they lightend it up and made ultron like tony stark
>>78660500
>Characters were given really thin reasons for doing what they were doing
I think you missed a huge chunk of the movie.
>Wanda and Pietro's motivation for teaming up with Ultron
They want Stark and by extention, the avengers dead. they explain why in a long, long sob story that Ultron listens to.
>Banner and Widow's motivations for the way their romance played out
now this is just the director wanting to give depth to 2 bland characters.
>Tony's motivations were so confusing that are still arguing about whether he was under Wanda's spell or not.
no? Wanda showed him his biggest fear and that made Tony speed up the world-saving process and it went horribly wrong because of the mind gem, wanda knew he was going to fuck up that's why she let him take the scepter.
>>78660643
>test audiences
The cancer killing movies.
Huge portions of the script needed massive rewrites and revisions. Several scenes needed to be cut out completely.
The sheer amount of quips and humor needed to be dialed WAY back. I get that it is Marvel's thing, but every character shouldn't' have turned into a sarcastic quip machine by the final act. (FFS the way Quicksilver died is the epitome of how bad it got) The entire final had no real tension and felt more like a comedy.
The Hulk/Widow scenes are entirely out of place and cause the movie to drag. It seems like they are there entirely to justify more Scarlett Johansson. I strongly suspect they are there because of studio meddling demanding a love plot.
I actually like the comedy relief
I dislike how "dark" the mcu is becoming, they should just keep it lighthearted.
>>78660839
>the MCU should be stupid like me!
I agree.
>>78659805
It was very obvious. He literally says it.
>>78660839
The MCU is anything but ''dark'' right now.
>>78659829
SJWs hated it though
>>78660839
>>78660877
It always upsets me when people say this
One thing is "comic relief" and the other is plain stupidness
"comic RELIEF" is that. A character making a joke to make the movie less heavy and avoid it from being too serious
Then there's stupidness, like throwing quips every 3 minutes
>>78660839
If you think the MCU is dark then I don't even know what to say.
Even Civil War seems overly bright/campy compared to what they could be doing.
Let's be real: Disney write to the masses polices will prevent Marvel from getting to dark/dramatic.
>>78660965
>comic reliefs make a movie good
>>78660918
>>78661001
True: in the MCU no one ever dies, especially civilians; and everyone wears suits of bright colors.
>>78660918
>>78661001
>iron man 3 trailer
>thor the dark world
>captain america 2
>avengers 2 trailer
The mcu is trying to pander to the dark and edgy crowd.
Look at the civil war trailer, it's too serious.
>>78661036
Confirmed.
>>78661002
Never said that
It can be either good and useful or fuck the movie up
>>78661059
Yeah the trailers are trying to draw in viewers who want more serious/dramatic films.
The problem is that the actual movies are anything but and those viewers aren't as interested. (Plus the burnout coming from the cut & paste Marvel narrative that is becoming apparent)
>>78661129
>Yeah the trailers are trying to draw in viewers who want more serious/dramatic films.
and thats exactly the reason why people didn't like avengers 2, they tried too hard to pander to the people who like serious movies, and then they made them dissapointed, because the mcu shouldn't be serious
Honestly, marvel should just stop trying to make everything serious.
>>78661129
>Plus the burnout coming from the cut & paste Marvel narrative that is becoming apparent
This is the main thing I hope Marvel is watching out for. While Ant-man was successful when it was in the theaters, the general populace view is starting to become that hero origin movies are getting a little to samey.
It's probably only a matter of time until someone does a plinkett level review for the MCU and 20 something hipsters start bashing it out of fashion ala the Star Ware prequels.
>>78661235
>marvel should just stop trying to make everything serious.
They did so, with Ant-Man. But...
>>78661576
There's a reason why gotg and antman did so well
>>78660643
Stop scapegoating test-audiences for everything, they had nothing to do with the tone.
The tone is just the Joss Whedon default tone since the days of Buffy, where every serious scene has jokes in it and funny scenes suddenly turn serious without warning.
When it works, it's great because you never know what's coming next. I don't think it works as well in a big movie as it does in a low-budget TV show.
>>78661840
That particular tone seems to belong to a different time now. Like the comic book Alias constantly bounced back and forth between seriousness and campy humor, while the TV adaptation was more straightforwardly serious.
>>78661879
Thank God. Buffy is fucking awful.
>>78662173
Disagree. But on Buffy (and in Alias) you could take the serious moments seriously so they had impact. AoU was trying to have that mix of tones but you couldn't take the "serious" stuff seriously.
The one exception was the scene between Vision and Ultron. That was both funny and touching, and it worked.
>>78659695
So many bad decisions.
Remove scarlet and quicksilver.
Add in pym and Jan, why couldn't they make this work they were founding members for fuck sake
Remove widow and hulk ship.
We could have gotten Mocking bird but know we got middle of nowhere family.
Thor hottub time machine was so hard to watch.
>>78660491
holy shit
>MUH CANON
nobody fucking cares. Every villain with a personality in the series so far is a quip machine. They could have done something interesting with Ultron but didn't. It literally doesn't matter AT ALL that he was like the comic book character.
>>78660466
He was like bane with that clown voice.
>>78661840
>>78662216
>Make it dark, make it grim, make it tough, but then, for the love of God, tell a joke.
Direct quote from Joss "the boss" Whedon that clearly outlines why he is the fucking worst.
>>78661706
>gotg and antman did so well
>>78662348
Ultron in the comics isn't like he is in the movies, anyway. The key thing about Ultron, which makes him interesting, is that he thinks he's above humans and their emotion but is actually an emotion-filled rage machine. He's struggling against his own nature and his own feelings, which he's ashamed of having.
The movie tried to get that and occasionally came close, but it didn't work. I think the problem was that Whedon wanted the theme of the movie to be "parents and children" so he pushed Ultron to be a child in a robotic body.
Way better version of the movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf-_230SjbM
>>78662348
Except that's not true.
>>78662548
What about it wasn't true? Because it's true that nobody cares about the comic books.
>>78662481
I almost feel bad for Whedon in that case. A man raised by women who has no idea how to write a compelling father-son relationship, no wonder he's an ardent feminist
>>78660558
>never heard of batman the musical
Featured a meatloaf classic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ymjj7wQ5dY
>>78662656
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTAqflOCsOE
Terrible pacing and the villain's plan made no sense.
Wheddon can't write story. He thinks busy = interesting and subversion is fun.
>>78659695
Characters were all a shit because they all had the same dialogue quipping back and forth. They all felt like they had the same God aweful personality.
But hey it's got jokes. The city is saved and everyone in it one by one. Jokes. RDJ. Avengers just chilling doing nothing and jokes.
All you need brah. Marvel struck lightning in a bottle again. 5/5
>>78660466
Its cause rdj programmed to be like himself man
>>78662307
Whedon would have liked to have at least Wasp in the first movie, but I think the development of ANT-MAN made it difficult to have Pym and Jan in Avengers.
Banner in ULTRON is basically a substitute for Pym, the Avengers' smart guy whose smartness is a bit overshadowed by Stark. If Pym had been in the first movie he'd probably have played Banner's role in the second (either way they would have had Tony be in on the creation of Ultron, because he's Tony Stark and everything has to revolve around him).
I think the movie might have been better off without Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch but a) most people agreed that Scarlet Witch was a better Token Female than Black Widow b) Vision without Scarlet Witch is just wrong somehow.
>>78660877
Lol
What struck me about it was how impactless everything was. All the bits I liked from the trailers felt like they were just in there to keep movie/trailer continuity and not serve any specific purpose in the movie. Even the quips from the trailer felt flat and out of place in the final product.
Objectively, this movie had one of the worst dialogues I've ever seen in a movie. It was an one liner after another.
>>78659695
I think honest trailers summed it up nicely. It's good, but not great. It doesn't live up to the hype and that makes it disappointing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDJAKvcZ9o
>trailers make Ultron seem creepy and a legit threat
>in the movie he's just Quiptron and gets less scary with every scene
>big climax with the fate of the world in the balance
>any tension is ruined by characters making jokes every 5 seconds
>oh no movie isn't serious enough
>let's just do an obligatory character death, that will fix everything
>and yeah let's have the almighty Ultron using a fucking jet at the end to fight, that's not lame at all
The movie has good stuff in it (how Vision is adapted, visual effects, farmhouse stuff, etc.) but it's just a mess overall.
>>78662451
What are you trying to imply here?
>>78659695
Whedon is a hack, first one was a fluke.
