What does this term even mean any more?
>>78385709
Character I don't like.
>>78385709
Used in it's correct term: An overpowered, over-adored miss Perfect
Nowadays: Any underdog or any powerful character.
>>78385709
I always thought of a Mary Sue to be a character that will never be killed off because they are the creator's favorite.
>>78385709
Same thing it always did. People who ask this question are usually just mad about seeing an epithet applied to something they like.
>>78385815
The problem is that the term makes no sense outside of fanfiction. We already use "power fantasy" for similar characters in media, and people are more than OK with those.
>>78385709
The same thing it's always meant. A character who is loved by people instantly, succeeds at everything with minimal effort, is charismatic, beautiful, is sexually desired by everyone, always holds the moral high ground, etc.
It's just characterfags freak the fuck out whenever it's implied their favorite has a fundamental flaw, so they try to assassinate the term itself in order to protect them.
>>78385709Rey
>>78385709
It means /co/ is literally tumblr
I always thought in order to be a Mary Sue, the character has to be a self-insert of the author.
>>78386206
Well the two go hand in hand, it only makes sense that if you're gonna be a character in your own works you're gonna speak very highly of yourself.
>>78385709
Have a pic.
Any character noticeably treated by the story as more important than they should be. If other characters can't stop fawning over or hating this character, if the laws of the universe have more control over the character's success/failure than the character's actions, etc.
Also, the most important word in there is "noticeably". It doesn't matter how unrealistically powerful or liked a character is if a writer is good enough to make it make sense.
>>78386141
Don't forget they have to have exactly one small character flaw. Like 'clumsy'.
>>78385802
That's a creators Pet.
>>78386158
>>78386312
Ugh, I mean come on it's 2015
>>78385709
Being a term coined by a loosely affiliated fandom on the Internet its definition always seemed pretty loose.
Originally I think it meant fan fiction self-insert OC that the writer made take focus over established characters usually with no true flaws and fulfilling their wishes. A parody of such characters was created named Mary-Sue and that coined the term.
Then as it evolved it could be used in the context of actual published work with mostly the same meaning, little to no actual flaws and stealing plot focus from other characters.
Then it seemed to start meaning character who appeared successful to a contrived degree .
Then just character I don't really like.
Though I've seen a few internet feminist types use it in the sense "competent female character who threatens misogynerds"
Prince Pokota.
>>78386330
#triggered
>>78386330
>don't insult my favorite movie you meanie!! ;;_;;
>>78386337
And not even actually clumsy, but "oops, dropped my spoon" clumsy.
https://gifsound.com/?gif=i.imgur.com/MPNA1vF.jpg&v=qmqBzFcHQis
It means whoever is using it is a misogynist according to Aaron Diaz.
>>78385709
>>78386354
>comparing Luke to Rey meme
>male mary sue instead of gary stu
Based Finn don't got to deal with this nonsense.
>>78387327
Oh, please, all the films were shit.
>>78386141
This hits the nail on the head.
>>78386354
This makes me wonder if Disney is hiring people to argue against criticism. I mean they don't really have to, but with how aggressively they've been marketing this film it honestly wouldn't surprise me.
Remember: if a straight white male says anything, it's automatically suspicious.
>>78387384
That is not a valid counter argument for the point they're making.
>>78386141
bingo
OP is probably just butthurt about ANH: Reloaded
/thread
>>78387327
>Gary Stu
Just say MAry Sue.
>>78387445
They most definitely are.
Have you seen the reviews?
>>78385709
Mary Sue means perfect character without flaws or the author's self insert.
People now use the term to describe characters they hate.
>>78386141
That is a very good definition there. Also, the biggest flaw for Mary Sue character is that, they are usually some flat characters. They frequently serve comparison to other characters that how bad a character is, or how good that Mary Sue character is. In nutshell, Mary Sue characters are pretty mundane for most time.
>>78387450
Waaitt a minute, aren't sjws being misogynistic themselves by hating on straight males? Straights date women and if straights are worth less because they're dating women doesn't that mean they think women are worth less?
>>78386136
>makes no sense outside of fanfiction
It does though. Have you seen Sword Art Online? Kirito is a perfect example. He is the strongest evar and nothing is difficult for him, he is cocky and sure of his abilities, every single girl he looks at is on his dick immediately and every guy wants to hang out with him, and he's super famous for being good. It's a character that the world seems to love because the author is trying to live out a fantasy.
Juxtapose this with somebody like Saitama from One Punch Man who is the strongest evar but the world still hates him and he doesn't get the respect he deserves. He is the punching bag and is used for comedy. That's not a Mary Sue.
>/tv/ starts the Mary Sue meme
>the media actually responds
>people are tripping over themselves every day to disprove 4chan memes
>>78386354
>it's 2015
I love this meme
>>78387492
I haven't actually. Is it that noticeable? It's almost kind of scary the massive amount of social power a corporation can have. Sometimes I wonder if there should be a limit on the number of intellectual properties a company can own.
>>78387622
>/tv/
Try Star Trek forums before 4chan even existed, faggot.
>>78387645
*the Mary Sue meme in relation to the Rey character in the movie Star Wars: The Force Awakens
That better?
the same f***damn thing its always meant you pretentious twat
>>78387664
>Calling one character a Mary Sue is a meme
>>78386141
Pretty much this
>>78387629
Dude, Disney is one of the few companies that can't lose. Why do you think this board gets so aggressive about Marvel shills? Even when someone is shitposting it's hard to tell, because any publicity is good publicity.
>>78387576
>doesn't that mean they think women are worth less
Essentially. There's this whole web work of logic that goes into sjw thinking.
>>78387590
But he's a guy so he's immune.
>>78386141
Or could I also said Mary Sue characters are one of the least developed in the whole cast? Since they are already good enough, they don't need to struggle to become likable.
>>78386354
>If a female character has flaws then the writer is sexist.
>If a female character has no flaws and the audience complains then the audience is sexist.
>>78386141
This right here, in recent years characters that have suffered from this issue are characters like
Batman - especially when his winning condition is I'm Batman and muh dead parents
Rey from the new Star Wars movie
Female Thor, has a bit of this problem as well
>>78386354
If I didn't know better, I'd assume that the whole " Rey is a Mary Sue" meme was deliberately manufactured so that people would stop going on about "OMG A NIGGER!"
Seriously, notice nobody's talking about Finn anymore?
>>78387779They saw the movie and realized Finn wasn't the most annoying part.
>>78386330
Epic shitpost, now fuck off.
>>78387327
I actually liked Finn, I will admit I was just a little but hurt that he didn't get that one thing he was good at in the movie.
Like he doesn't even get to have even a hint at force powers, and is meh at fighting, and he can't even pilot.
>>78387761
Also some of cartoon protagonists' love interests have those problems. Of Course, that is not always the case.
>>78387590
Is Kirito really a Sue?Dude failed to protect his first party in SAO and became a loner until he met his girlfriend.Then he's implied to have PTSD because of his experiences(anime toned this down).
>>78387779
>Seriously, notice nobody's talking about Finn anymore?
I thought it was just a typical case of
>before product's release
>"FUCKING [minority]"
>after release
>"Ya know, this character ain't too shabby"
>>78387729
No it's not. That has never been the case.
>>78387795
This.
Finn is fine. Good even.
Rey is a mary sue and the movie was a goddamn trainwreck, from the plot (death star 3 lol) to the music, and everything in between.
>>78387817
One Punch Man is a mary sue or gary stu, but it's done for comedic effect and to literally spoof the Shonen genre, so it's kind of the way to do it right, make your mary sue or gary stu but go full ham is what I say
>>78386141
This with the addition of this >>78386337
>>78387824
Let's be fair, nobody was "really" talking about Finn beforehand.
Sure, there was some /tv/ and /pol/ shitposting, but that's the bants. Nobody was seriously campaigning against it (remember when the media tried to spin a "Star Wars fans hate black people" thing over twitter posts until everyone realized it was literally only 3 people?).
>>78387817
He only failed to protect them becuase he kept to himself the big secret, which was that he was a too much a better player than any of them.
>>78387817
Yes. He is pretty much the definition. In fact that makes him somewhat more of a Sue. After that he went off alone in a party based MMO and was able to be unstoppable and still the best all by himself and he also never thought about his party ever again after that one time. He even got some bullshit ability to regen his health so that when five guys were attacking him at once he 1. would only loose like a thousandth of his health, and 2. regained it immediately. He's also able to dual wield because he's the best.
>>78387866
To be a Mary Sue you have to be loved. There are plenty of characters with godlike strength that aren't Sues.
Disney is loving this controversy. It makes people want to see the movie again to prove/disprove the argument. Avatar is fucking finished.
>>78387883
dang I knew there was a reason I disliked SAO, Kirito is a gary stu piece of shit
>>78387918
true no one really likes Saitama, until they become actual friends with him.
>>78387664
yeah but, she makes mistakes, considers selling the droid, wants to run away from the force and the resistance's need for help, just wants to go back home. Yes the other main characters like her, but people are still trying to kill her, and all the other scavenger people thought she was a shit, and she isn't the focus of Kylo Ren he's obsessed with Luke, not her, and is raged out by trader Fin, not her, she's just fodder for his tissy fits and he only wants her dead when he sees he can steal a limited edition vader saber from her.
she's more a "the one" trope than a mary sue. mary sues just don't have conflicts or failings, they win and when that's done they win again.
>>78387981
you could make a The One or Chosen argument for Rey and it has a basis but I think the Mary Sue still fits.
She doesn't need the bad guys to like her, just the main cast and the good guys need to like her.
Also she has small flaws that never fully affect the plot nor her development. She never has to receive assistance from any of the other characters and she even figures out how to use abilities that are foreign to her and without even being told or taught how to use the force
>>78387981
Being a Mary Sue doesn't mean you have no enemies.Bella Swan has plenty of people out to kill her. She makes minute "mistakes" but they're hardly character flaws, and it has no bearing on her character.
>>78387827
The movie is good. Go try to be a special snowflake on reddit.
>>78387803
That's exactly what I liked about him. He was a storm trooper, for years they were seen as jokes because they get rekt so easily and have shitty aim. His one thing he was good at was being a storm trooper without his uniform. And then he gets shown up by another storm trooper too? And then that storm trooper got rekt too.
>>78388109
that's fair, I guess it's more a difference of opinion and I can not deny that awesome 'TRAITOR: scene
>>78385709
A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities. Often but not necessarily this character is recognized as an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.[1]
>>78388146
>>78385802
By that logic any protagonist would be a Mary Sue.
Even ones in comedies.
>>78387981
Being a Sue means that only the bad guys dislike or bad mouth you.
>>78387872
another flaw here is clearly "has no sense of color balance" because my god that shit is hard to read.
>>78388188
What happens to him?
>>78388059
>>78388075
Don't forget that, when she wasn't on-screen, everyone kept asking "where's Rey".
>>78388188
They really made the Storm troopers awesome. The designs for the storm troopers with the ammo vest and the ones with the shoulder pads where cool as fuck
>>78388188
Do we know who played TR-8R?
>>78388304
Who, TR-8R?He's in Valhalla, being pleasured by his shiny and chrome waifu
>>78388059
well when you consider the reason the siths were so powerful before was due to the rule of two, and now there is at least two darkside users if not more with this Knights of Ren thing, but there is only one jedi left, so if she can tap into the force she's going to be overpowered quickly because no one else is using it.
then again that sort of logic was more in the EU than the actual films so idk if it even makes sense to the movie.
to me, it's not that the villains need to like her, it's just that she doesn't register to them, she's not their focus, a mary sue to me is suddenly the main hero that the villains must bring down for no real reason.
anyway I know a lot of people think the fight between her and Ren was bullshit, but I honestly don't think it had anything to do with her, when I was watching it I was sure it was just Ren being weaken by his conflicts and killing his dad and all that, not that she was capable of fighting him, and that was before I heard the argument.
she isn't a well written character I'll give you that, she is pretty over the top, but I kinda attribute that to modern cinema sensibilities we have to see the force now, we have to experience it like the character does, and it has to read to the cheap seats. some of it's cool, like the grabbing the light saber and future sight scene but it doesn't make for a great character arc. there's no good story reason why fin and han can't save her instead of her suddenly having end game force abilities.
>>78388377
They don't have trash up there.
>>78388377
Please, he's gonnashow up in VIII with Phasmas rank, a cape added to his old armor, and two batons to beat Finn with.
>>78388495
>Dr. Rick Dagless, MD as the Groom of the Stool
Bless this image
>>78388495
>no Kyle in the SW section
Hey now, let's get real.
>>78388495
>Generals
>No Mary Sue
What are you doing anon
This thread is so toxic
I wish /Tv/ and /Pol/ would leave
>>78388416
I will state I am not one of those people that hate on the movie, I personally still liked it but Rey being a Mary Sue was a thought I had about half way through the movie, and I was aware of the term before the whole twitter argument.
I mean the only real complaint I have about her being the mary sue is the fact that a lot of these SJW and femnist people hate on people for noticing it instead of just embracing it as part of her character, because no one is taking Rey away from them
>>78388806
Your mom's vagina is toxic.
>>78388416
I don't think the fight was bullshit since it established she's a good fighter (how she became a good fighter is unexplained, her NEEDING to be one isn't an excuse, Batman's not a good detective just because he needs to be, he learnt that shit) and established he was injured. I'd be fine with her resisting his mind interrogation stuff but she turning it back on him with NO training or experience? {inb4 "She learnt how to defend and best dark Jedis (inb4 "he was emotional" that gives the dark side MORE power remember?) at age 4"} That was pretty retarded, so was her using Jedi Mind Tricks like that.
Also lets not forget Luke was the one of two or three Jedi left in the original trilogy. In the second movie there was one jedi left alive, and he still was rekted and was no where near as strong as Rey. "Rey had a calm mind" so she's got no conflict there then at times where it could affect the plot?
Is she a Mary Sue? It can be argued but more importantly she's a flat character without much internal struggle going on with herself or at least struggles that affect her and characters around her in moments that matter like the rest of the cast. They've got a WAY better directer for 8 so it might get better.
>>78388806
>le every contrarian opinion is le x boogeyman
knit your socks m8
>>78387623
I don't understand how its different from the ">year >thing I don't like" Costanaza.jpeg shit that this site has been doing for years.
>>78386141
Is this really what people think "Mary Sue" means?
Is everybody just agreeing with this ironically? A big elaborate trolling?
>>78388806
PROBLEMATIC
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0
B
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A
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>>78389280
Because those were usually ironic shitposts that no one took seriously. We've reached a point where real life mimics shitty 4chan memes and takes it seriously.
>>78389314
Explain why it's not correct?
>Thread turns into Star Wars spoilers
Great
>>78388085
Extemely weak bait. Have a pity (You).
>>78389436Han solo is killed by his son Kylo Ren
>>78389436
Did you know that Han Solo is killed by Ben or Kylo Ren who is also Han Solo's son?
It means 'I had a problem with the depiction of this character but I'm not articulate enough to tell you why that is'.
>>78389412
Mary Sue comes from a Star Trek fanfiction. It's literally the name of a character. She's 17 years old and had 3 PhD's and physically gorgeous and hyper competent at every thing she does. In other words a "Mary Sue" is a poorly written fan character that doesn't at all fit in with the canon characters and is perfect in every way.
It's got fuck all to do with the character being popular or sexy.
>>78389707
see
>>78389545
Then go back to Tumblr.
>>78385709
A characters whose struggles are solved either by the problem being literally designed to be solved by them, so they have no tension.
A character who may not be the most powerful but is the solution to everything.
A character whose faults are still positive traits.
A character who can make others act out of character to the benefit of them.
A characters whose relationships are perfect, people adore them at any point in the story and even their mistakes are dismissed.
A character that is adored by and desired by everyone.
Any failures they have are still net positives to the world.
Generally it will be an OC Donutsteel character who completely breaks powerscales, can replicate unique moves but better, is in a relationship with characters who are already established with others or who do not want relationships. The telltale signs, are the characters appearance is unqiue, even by that Universes standards, so they will completely standout to an absurd extent.
>>78389436
did you know that Rey takes the millenium falcon at the end of the movie and finds Luke and even keeps Chewie as her co-pilot
>>78390117
I think Chewie is the owner of the Falcon now and was just dropping her off at Luke's island. Like he waved goodbye to her at the end iirc.
>>78390168
possibly, but the ship can't be piloted properly without 2-4 crewman at the very least. So now I am even more curious as to what Chewie would do if anyone tries to attack him without backup crew
>>78387320
This was surprisingly good.
>one of the storm troopers was James Bond
I hope he shows up again and takes his helmet off.
>>78389763
I got you senpai.
>>78389409
Just look at what happened to Pepe.
Soon we're going to get to a point that companies begin lurking /b/ for the latest memes to exploit as soon as they're created. Within 24 hours of a "new meme" being shitposted, we'll be seeing it across no less than eight corporate Twitter accounts.
>>78390297
Seems like you could sidestep all this pedantry by calling a character "garbage" instead. It'd be a better fit, too, since you wouldn't have to work out whether the author is playing out a fantasy in the piece.
>>78390341
>Soon we're going to get to a point that companies begin lurking /b/ for the latest meme
>Soon
Companies have been lurking this site for years. The only difference is people are starting to pay more attention. Did no one see the wendies memer commercial?
>>78390442
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNtySt6Fg30
I didn't
I always thought that Mary Sue meant a character that the show/book/whatever keeps trying to foist on the audience, to the point of implausibility. Sure, the character might have a few flaws (anger, angst, whatever), but they don't really hinder the character from always being the one saving the day or in the spotlight. I feel the term has more to do with how much the writer loves the character than how flawless the character actually is. I'll admit, two of my favorite characters--Conan the Barbarian and Kenshiro--had some Gary Stu-ish tendencies (especially Kenshiro), so not all Sues/Stus are completely unlikable, but I liked those characters IN SPITE of their Stu-ish traits, not because of them. Not to mention, even Conan and Kenshiro got beat up once in a while.
As for Rey, I feel like the real flaw with her character isn't that she's a Sue. It's that she's boring as hell. She has a few cute moments with BB-8 at the start, but otherwise is totally uninteresting. Her motivations make no sense, too. "Mommy and daddy'll come back for me one day, I know it!" is a motivation for a child, not for a jaded adult warrior-woman who should have long since given up after a life of toil. I'm hard-pressed to describe her character, other than that she's tough and heroic. Her "Uncivilized Desert Rat" characteristics are mostly dropped as soon as she leaves Jakku. Rey dreams big, sure, but she's otherwise so bland that her big dreams have no emotional effect on the viewer. She's Heroine McProtagonist and nothing else.
>>78390416
>calling female character garbage in this day and age.
Anon, please. Just look at how butt hurt people are for calling one a mary sue. Calling one garbage would result in full on "muh soggy knees" headlines. They're pretty much teetering on the sexism angle already.
>>78390577
In some cases it's a bit hard to describe. To use a female example, Samus Aran might totally qualify (completely ignoring the shit stain that is Other M). She's efficient and capable and stoic, with alien super blood and a one-of-a-kind power suit, but she works. In all the games, Samus never really comes across as a Sue of any sort, compared to Rey or something like Alice from the RE movies.
That might just be because she's the player avatar, and that character interaction is kept to a minimum. Still, I wonder if there's something more to it that can be pinned down.
>>78390869
Yeah, I think the character being a player avatar mitigates it. Mario, for example, is a cheerful, outgoing, beloved superhero who has saved the world mutliple times, but I can't really think of him as a Stu since he's just me, going through the game.
>Still, I wonder if there's something more to it that can be pinned down.
That's a toughie. Whether a character is "flawless" or not is subjective, and I already mentioned that I liked a couple of characters that were being somewhat overhyped by their writers (my definition of a Sue). I think it just depends if you think the character is good or well-written enough to deserve all the praise/hype/story focus they get.
>>78390869
>>78391017
That's Because one of the key elements that make up a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is that they're so perfect and skilled, they kill all dramatic tension. The audience stops wondering whether she or he will make it out of this or other situation because they know already s-/he will and without breaking a sweat.
Samus and Mario, By dint of being player characters, struggle to clear the many stages of their games. They struggle because the player, physically, has to struggle himself, especially on the very first run. Few things are as immersive as that.
>>78390577
>Not to mention, even Conan and Kenshiro got beat up once in a while
I think this is one of the main points that people don't realize.
>>78391171
That's probably a factor as well. You stop thinking Mario is perfect by the fiftieth time he plummets to his death.
>>78391221
It really irks me when people don't realize this. Yeah, a character getting constantly worfed sucks, but a character never losing a fight sucks too. The hero is at his most heroic when he gets his ass kicked, but then defies the odds to get up again and repay the villain in kind. The heroes of the LOTR trilogy weren't heroes because defeating Sauron was a fucking cakewalk.
Judging from usage on 4chan as of late, it means a female protagonist.:^)
>>78387803
On the bright side, this is becoming a trilogy, so he definitely had a chance to grow as the series progresses.
>>78391487
That's what really bugs me about people complaining about criticisms of Rey, as if rightfully pointing out her Mary Sue-ishness somehow "takes her away" or something.
No, if you want a strong female lead or whatever, you SHOULD be demanding that she be made fallible and complex and interesting. Like another anon pointed out with LotR, we don't love heroes because they're invincible, we rally around them because they struggle and sometimes fail but manage to push against adversity to overcome.
>>78391560
But little girls need heroes!
Just a question for everyone!
Would Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse qualify as Mary Sues?
>>78391560
>Aragorn
>Legolas
>>78391625
Depends on the series/short/time period. Early Mickey was scrappy, something of a rabble rouser, than he morphed into the straight-laced "do no wrong" man once he was the "Face" of the company. If you watch the latest shorts Disney's been putting out, he's prissy and oblivious, and is actually a funny character in his own right again. He certainly doesn't count now.
I know Chuck Jones kept a strict discipline when it came to the shorts to keep Bugs likable for audiences. He only "retaliates" in most of his shorts, he's never the instigator. He's usually the underdog in some way, and he takes his blows (I'm thinking of the bull figthing short especially). Bugs is not crafty or victorious for its own sake, or to impress anyone, but solely to entertain the audience (because it's funny to watch). Plus, he still can lose, like in the Tortoise and the Hare short. So no, I'd say he's not.
In general, I think Mary Sues are more endemic to genres like action (fantasy, science fiction, etc.) and romance. A comedy protagonist that can't get knocked down a peg in some way probably won't be too funny.
>>78391625
Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny are in a sense Mary Sues, except in those shorts where they get defeated (like bugs with the Gremlins short)
However they are comedic characters, the fact they are Mary Sues are part of their comedy effect and timing.
I personally never had a problem with a Mary Sue but it has to be portrayed properly, it needs to go full ham with it, which is why it works with shorts and not quite as much when trying to tell a full story narrative
>>78390297
>bella swan
yeah I get it
>eragon
what? I didn't even like that series, but I don't remember him being unrealistically good at anything, at least not until he got remade by the dragon. even then it was only a physical improvement, he was canonically pretty much blundering and antagonizing through a war only he could end but was too incompetent to do so. is my memory faulty or are they reaching a bit there?
>>78385709
It still means the same thing, it's just that now people hate it because society is going through this "everyone is a special snowflake" phase and therefore relate to Mary Sues too much to admit their flaws, or to even accept them as such.
>>78391789
Isn't Legolas stealing scenes a regular complaint?
>>78387761
rey was busting her ASS collecting pieces of scrap for barely any money on a daily basis, all by herself, probably for a really good portion of her current life
that's barely "loved by people instantly, succeeds at everything with minimal effort"
>>78392681
whatever helps you sleep at night, you have your opinion of her and I have mine.
I think she is a Mary Sue and if you don't all power to you mate
>>78392681
You forgot the part where Han Solo offers her a position on the Falcon immediately after he met her and the fact that the Resistance just gives her the location of Luke's position despite meeting her after all the events of the film
Why are there people who refuse to use terms correctly and feel entitled to redefine them as they please?
There has never been any confusion about what "Mary sue" means, just ignorant dumb fucks who just throw words around without understanding what they mean.
>>78392681
would you like to break things down a bit
She can fly the Millennium Falcon, and even stated she never flew that ship before (I will give this a pass, but I am making list)
Han, a person that never likes anyone at first (questioned the force, didn't like Obi Wan, Luke, or even Leia) but he loves Rey offers her a job on the Falcon and even gives her gun because he knows she can handle herself
She was captured by Kylo Ren and without explanation can apparently now use force mind manipulation
saves herself before Finn and Han find her
Finds hidey holes and such in the base and avoids entire base filled with Storm Troopers
can use force to call Lightsaber
Beats Kylo Ren in a fight who is more trained than she is (granted Kylo was injured, and he fought Finn as well so I will let this one pass as well)
>>78393018
To be fair, that was Han like 30 years ago.
There's no reason he couldn't lighten up.
>>78393072
Do you offer a person you just met a gun and a job?
I would at least give you the fact he might lighten up, but he would at least give her a chance to try out for the position, before up and offering it immediately
I thought the girl power shit would be annoying in TFA but I think Rey and Finn were the best things to come out of it. I don't get why that shit bothered people.The shit that was lame was the death star rehash
>>78385709
>what does mary stu mean
>>78393265
it's true
Not /co/ but, would this guy be a Mary Sue?
I got to thinking about a bunch of movies and for the most part a lot of MCs actually have pretty decent noticeable flaws that impact them negatively in story however when thinking of Navyman, I can't think of anything.
The worst thing is he doesn't work well with authority but he's pretty much spot for everything he criticizes the authorities so that's not really a flaw. Oh and he had a mildly hard time hunting his own dinosaurs but they just join him again.
In fact it sort of supports my theory that Jurassic World is pretty much an 11 year old's bad fan fiction. Which is why I like it, in one way or another it's every bad idea I had for Jurassic Park. Super Dinosaurs, Military Guys, More Motorcycles, A chick that's actually hot, Team Dinosaurs, it was so corny.
>>78393262
>Not expecting rehashes in an Abram's movie
>>78392087
Nah, he was like so good at Archery he could fire three arrows in a second or something and was the only guy in the village who would enter the "forbidden forest" or something before he even found the egg. Once he gets it he's "The best Dragon Rider at X" for pretty much every single thing, as well as having the ideal 21st century western moral compass despite living where he does.
>>78385709
It's kind of jarring coming on /co/ and seeing how PC and tumblr this place is then going over on /tv/ and it's the polar opposite.
I never thought I'd say this but I miss when /co/ was more like /tv/.
The integral part of Mary Sue that people never remember is that it is for all intents and purposes a self-insert of the fanfic author.
Simply introducing a powerful character isn't a Mary Sue.
Rey is not even remotely close to what an actual Mary Sue is.
>>78393858
How so?
All of you are looking at Mary Sues in the wrong direction.
A Mary Sue is a character where the world changes to fit their needs, and not the other way around.
For example, Bella from Twilight. Has no positive characteristics whatsoever. Personality of a wet towel. Yet a 100-year-old vampire with flawless skin loves her, his entire family loves her, her lyanthropic best friend loves her, all for no reason. Even the secret mysterious cabal of vampires that's like the Illuminati or some shit wants her... for some reason.
Protagonist of Infinite Stratos. In a world where woman pilot robots, he's the only man on earth who can pilot a robot too. Every girl he meets loves him, even though he has no personality. He shouldn't even be a side character in the series, let alone the MC, but the world stretches itself and makes adjustments so he can be the star.
A real Mary Sue is like a black hole - everything is about them, them, them. Previous canon relationships are broken up in fanfics so the author can marry his waifu. They're often overpowered to make up for this, to give a flimsy explanation of why the story SHOULD be about them.
Contrast this to Superman, Saitama, et al. They're strong, yes. But they have legitimate flaws, and just because they're the main character doesn't mean the rest of the cast bends over backwards to serve them.
So, for instance, Rey isn't really a Mary Sue. Sure, she has potential with the force. But she doesn't change Han or Finn's personalities when she's with them - Han still wants to escape his past and save his son, Finn wants to run away. Her victory against Kylo occurred because he was already wounded and emotionally unstable.
>>78393858
>I never thought I'd say this but I miss when /co/ was more like /tv/.
Fuck that noise.
I miss when /co/ was just a place where people discussed comics. It wasn't tumblr or /tv/ tier, it was just the most chill board. Now it's infested with faggots like every other board on this site.
>>78394188
This man gets it.
Mary Sue is just yet another word that has been lost into the vacuum of internet memes.
>>78387795
This, I'm racist and jew jew abrams is a self hating white but I went in thinking Finn was gonna be the worst character but ended up hating rey because she was such as bullshit Mary sue.
>>78393858
You sure you're not just upset people are discussing things without chimping out? I understand it's less fun but that's not what any board should want to be.
>>78386141
So, Dexter Morgan?
>>78394188
I see where you are coming from, and you make some good points but I still feel Rey is a Mary Sue in my personal opinion.
Hell didn't they Rebeliion forces like her after only meeting her and trusted her with the info to go to Luke's position, even Leia hugged after only meeting her the first time.Also Finn tricked Han to specifically go to the enemy base to save her, which is out of character for him because he was mostly a coward till this pointAlso Kylo Ren immediately wanted to train her in the force after scanning her and finding out she has the force in her, he even chases her down later to fight her personally in the final arc, even though he was bleeding out and the place was falling apart
I mean sure I see your point and you are indeed right, but I just can't some of the mary sue like qualities she is portraying, even if she may not be a complete Mary Sue
>>78394142
Don't feel the need to constantly discuss PC topics and if people do try to the shitposting and insults would just scare them off or derail the thread.
>>78394324
No I am not. I don't think all this PC shit should even be allowed to be discussed here. Like >>78394219 said we should be talking about comics. All PC threads should be issued a warning and told to go to LGBT then banned. All PC post should be as well. There is an entire fucking board to discuss that stuff, just cause it's slow doesn't validate bringing it here.
>>78391868
>Bugs Bunny
He's a sore loser though, like in Tortoise wins by a Hare.
Female protagonist who is equally competent as male characters.
>>78387761
>>78393265
What the fuck is this guy's flaw?
>>78394772
He's American.
>>78390209
She did pretty well piloting it on her own tbf
>>78393400
He is. His one flaw is, going by the first scene between him and the female lead, he's a bit immature? Sort of? Otherwise he's pretty much perfect, with even the children commenting on how bad ass he is.
Chris Pratt is just likable enough that most people didn't mind. Plus dinosaurs are a good distraction.
>>78394440
God, Dexter went to such shit. Watching through the final seasons is one of the most excruciating viewing experiences I've put myself through.
I remember there was a rumor that a lot of the new writers that Dexter got in the back half of the show were women whose spec scripts all involved romance plots. They were more interested in pairing a "dark, mysterious but not too evil" Dexter up with "damaged, misunderstood" ladies.
I don't know if it's true, but it would explain a lot.
>>78390281
>turns out Craig was behind TR-8R
>thanks to being so liked he returns for next movie
>wears the same armor, but with burn marks from blast
>never takes his helmet off throughout, but you'll always know it's him
>his sole purpose in the movies is to beat the shit out of Fn
A man can only hope.
>>78386337
Or "I don't want to be the all powerful chosen one" bullshit 'flaw' so many of them have.
>>78395125
>God, Dexter went to such shit.
What happened?
>>78395279
He was actually the one mind controlled by Rey. His cannon identification is JB-007
>>78385732
>I don't like
What does this term even mean anymore.
>>78394999
>Chris Pratt is just likable enough that most people didn't mind.
This. Charisma can overcome just about anything.
>>78395311
Oh, man.
>The plots and villains became absolutely, mind-numbingly stupid, completely reliant on contrivances and asinine character decisions
>Colin Hanks was meant to be threatening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlZnbagyj6c
>Dexter basically went from a barely tempered sociopath to an untouchable brooding superhero
>Debra learns Dexter is a serial killer, and her arc is just becoming okay with it
>Lila retread, with Dexter meeting another super hot DAMAGED serial killer girl, except now it's supposed to be true love
>Sub plots come out of nowhere and lead to nothing, literally there just to kill time (Masuka meets his estranged daughter and is upset to learn she is a stripper, Batista opens a restaurant, etc.)
>Side cast becomes even more useless
>Over-reliance on narration and voice over to spoon feed viewers the entire plot
>The final villain is a retread of the first, completely ineffectual and unthreatening
>In the end, spoiler alert, Dexter fakes his death to become a lumberjack. Not lying.
This video is painfully accurate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM5_pac-4Is
Dexter becomes so bad that I can't recommend even the good seasons anymore. It's completely tainted by shit. If you have to watch it, or have already started, Season 1 is the best it gets. Stop at Season 4, John Lithgow is the last highlight.
"The term 'Mary Sue', widely used to refer to a character functioning as the writer's self-insert, originated in the 1970s with amateur Star Trek fanfiction, most of which was derided for its low quality and tendency to include fanmade characters, frequently a teenage girl. These characters received the derogatory name of 'Mary Sue' by critics."
>>78395580
>This was aired on television
>>78395580
I blame season 2. It was better than most of what followed, but the ending pretty much made path for more contrived coincidences that keep Dexter from getting caught and unsatisfying safe conclusions.
>>78395580
>the show keeps telling us how intelligent the final villain is
>falls for the dumbest and most obvious of tricks
And yeah, he was pretty much Ice Truck Killer, only more cartoonish than scary and with a shittier MO.
>>78390297
You are the man, anon.
>>78395916
Dexter himself was barely better. I wish I still had the gif of the scene where the season 8 killer guy "figures out" that Dexter is following him. Dexter mutters to himself, "Damn, he's good." Cue to the previous scene, where Dexter is literally just staring at him through the shop window in broad daylight.
I also hated adding the whole "mother" aspect to it. Retconning the psychiatrist to be the person who really made Harry's code was bad enough, doing basically nothing with her was even worse.
>>78395839
It was maddening and enlightening watching this show side by side with Breaking Bad. Not to meme too hard or anything, but BB is a show where it felt like actions had consequences and follow through. Dexter just went for convenience and did everything it could to maintain the status quo.
I didn't even mention the super babysitter who apparently spends every single minute of her life with Harrison so Dexter can just fuck around and do whatever.
I know this is a /co/ thread, not /lit/, /tv/, or /a/, but I think Yamato Nadeshiko (aka, Japanese's ideal woman) is a branch to Mary Sue as well. I think Mary Sue is a generalized term for almost ideal yet not necessary unlikable characters as a whole. Hell, one prevailing theme in Mary Sue character is to serve as a contrast to other characters; in most cases, how "inferior" other characters are. Of course, if Mary Sue characters, or the characters with that tendencies are not handled correctly, that characters are either become unlikable or boring.
Character that has it unreasonably good.
Usually a character whose flaws do not have negative effect and anyone complaining is brushed aside or vilified.
Less often - character who is unreasonably successful in certain activities or a character who is unreasonably skilled and capable for his position.
>>78396445
Mhm, could I say those type of characters are overrated sometimes? Most notably, the people who dislike the given characters will be denounced for those notions.
>>78396518
I'm not sure what are you talking about here.
>>78387694
What a gloomy prospect.
>>78396636
Well, is like the fans who openly dislike the mary sue will got the hate.
>>78396703
If author gets defensive, maybe.
If it's fans against fans, it's not really indicative of anything.
>>78396756
True. Like I stated earlier. A mary sue character's reputation is largely determined by the writer's skill.
>>78396756
Oh, sorry for the unreadable things I posted earlier, it was a rush. Anyway, I remembered one time, that, I openly stated a cartoon character needs to develop more (by the way, that character IS a mary sue) and nothing else, and I received a ton and ton of flame messages just for that.
>>78385709
any female character ever
People call my character a Mary Sue, but she only has 50 billion boyfriends, maybe you should stop being so salty and get 50 billion boyfriends
>>78390297
>using comic sans
Nice.
>>78387327
I can at least guess, Rey knew about mind tricks and such because she "heard legends" of the Jedi, so as soon as she figured out Kylo Ren was using the force on her, she was somehow affirmed that the legends were true on such things, hence she tried what she heard about before,giving a shot at mind tricks, still very Mary Sue herself on every other damned aspect.
