The writer of the biggest Mary Sue in webcomics defends the biggest Mary Sue in Star Wars.
I actually didn't mind Rei in the new Star Wars. I thought she was really likable.
I don't know who this is. Why should I care.
>>78319741
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ
>misogynist
wow just jump from there to that
>>78319741
Nigga, go back to /tv/ with your bitching.
>>78319773
pretty much everyone who works in webcomics is irrelevant, I don't know why OP cares
Checkmate sexists.
>term most often applied to sacred cows like Superman and Batman
>"misogynist"
Someone should kill that fucking cuck.
She was honestly one of the most obnoxious things in the movie. I didn't mind Finn, I didn't mind Han being a shit smuggler again for no reason, I didn't even mind Kylo/Ben being evil again for pretty much no reason that is explained to us, but Rei's entire character frustrated me.
Judging by the promotional material Rei is an immaculate supermodel despite being a desert scavenger. Is she dirtier in the movie or is this justified in any way? Seems hilariously retarded.
Rey was fine, and Aaron Diaz tries to prove he's the most progressive person around but acts like a tool. Nothing new. Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.
That's just Diaz trying to reassure himself that his Ashley Burch insert character isn't a Mary Sue.
Which she is.
>nigga thinks character flaws are a bad thing
Because of course he does.
Fucking go away Diaz.
>>78319855
I can't see how Superman can be seen as a mary sue. They try to give him flaws and humanize him all the time to counteract the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"
Batman wears that sue label like his cape tho.
>>78319741
Actually RPG stats is a good method. Keep your characters balanced.
>>78319741
Literally who?
>implying rei wasn't about the same as luke in terms of mary sue-ness
>SHE LEARNS THE FORCE TOO QUICKLY AND SHES TOO GOOD
>Luke fucking blew up the entire deathstar/conquered the immediate empire in a single movie going from being a simple farm boy
>>78319916
Depends on the story. Superman is definitely a Sue sometimes. Like in ASS, where he played the role of immaculate cosmic Jesus. There is no way in hell you can say with a straight face that wasn't some serious suedom.
>>78319916
>I can't see how Superman can be seen as a mary sue.
He's only seen that way by batfaggots and people who don't read comics. Literally.
>>78319741
Landis is completely fucking right about Rey. Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck? Its exactly what happens in The Force Awakens and it fucking sucks.
>>78319972
What the fuck dude? I just wanted to participate in a Diaz hate thread and here you are tossing around spoilers. Now I have to hide the thread. Thanks.
>>78319948
But Luke wasn't a super special mechanic that fixed the Falcon in ways that Solo never figured and Solo didn't immediately like Luke and make him his best buddy and tell him he's going to be his new first mate even though he had never piloted before then.
>>78319862
>Kylo/Ben being evil again
>evil again
>evil
>again
???
>>78319950
>There is no way in hell you can say with a straight face that wasn't some serious suedom.
You can if you understood what a mary sue was, which you clearly don't.
>Just because he's a moron doesn't mean you have to always take the exact opposite position he does.
Smarter words than anything people like Aaron have ever said. Hell, smarter than 80% of twitter.
>>78319972
Rey doesn't beat Vader though. Kylo Ren is in no way supposed to be as big of a badass as Vader, he's an edgy fanboy trying to be cool and failing at it.
>>78319741
Diaz is some kind of a living parody of a hipster idiot. I refuse to believe he believes anything he says.
>>78319948
So Rey is Korra?
>>78319916
Mary Sue is a pretty overused term, it's even used on characters who aren't OP like Supes or Bats. Unless it's a pretty shitty storyline I don't think Mary Sue applies to either.
Batman is too flawed to be a Mary Sue, since getting as strong as he does usually alienates a ton of people.
>>78319930
Not really, it doesn't really say anything about character or how they use their skill. Making a balanced character could just lead to a boring character.
>>78319991
Do people really care if they're spoiled on this movie?
>>78319972
> Can you imagine if Luke beats Darth Vader in a duel at the end of A New Hope? Wouldn't that fucking suck?
Han Solo beat Darth Vader.
>>78320001
There should have been a comma there, I apologize.
>evil, again
>>78319972
Watch out, nigger Boco is going to ban you for having anti SJW opinions
>>78319972
Wasn't Kylo supposed to be a beta fuck?
He's the best Force user in the galaxy because he's the only one. Doesn't make him good.
Hey whatever. You're not a true Star Wars fan if you think this new J.J.oke of a trilogy is worth half a shit anyway.
>crack shot
>master mechanic
>Skilled melee fighter
>Ace Pilot
>Jedi
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
She's not a cunt, but jesus
>>78319851
In "A New Hope" Luke was a bit cocky, whiny & naive.
>Blaster user & Perfect Shot
Lol wut
>Spy
The fuck?
Someone wrote a decent editorial about how Rey's a pretty big Mary Sue but we tolerate male characters having little difficulty mastering powers and showing hyper-competency is a bunch of areas while still seeming down-on-their-luck or down to earth.
I didn't entirely agree with it but it did make me okay with Rey's competency.
>>78319994
But Rey is a strong independent woman who need no white man
Maybe you just hate woman?
Luke:
>Ha, destroying the Death Star is easy, I've shot things smaller before
>Oh wait, I can't ;_;
>"Use the Force"
>jk, yeah I can, don't even need a targeting computer lol
>>78320012
But he's her main antagonist. I don't care how "badass" he's supposed to be, you've still effectively ripped the balls off of a character who MUST fight Rey again in future installments, but since we already know who's objectively strongest regardless of any amount of training from sheer talent alone, there's no tension.
The only way it could work is if Kylo gets redeemed and Rey falls to the darkside in the same movie.
This is why no one writes good female characters.
Shit's too polarizing.
>>78320048
Wouldn't flying a ship as large as the Falcon be much more difficult than a smaller ship? Where did she get the fuel to just practice flying it around?
>>78320059
I hate Gary Stus just as much as Mary Sues
Rey is a Mary Sue
>>78320059
Are you talking about that Verge article?
>>78320059
Fuck off
>>>/co/micsalliance
>>78319972
>Kylo gets shot with a bowcaster
>Is losing his shit after what he just did
>Gets wounded in at least two limbs
>So badly hurt he has to punch his own wounds to keep awake
>Still wins one duel and survives another
Kylo was going fucking above and beyond
>>78320059
Annie-Kun and Luke were pretty fucking bad in Mary Sue-ness.
The only well-written characters in the saga have been Obi-Wan, Han, and Finn.
>>78320048
Who is Anakin Skywalker?
>>78319972
Kylo was not as good as he thought and hadn't even completed his training. Also the planet was falling apart, that obviously factored in.
>>78320064
Yes, Luke was able to be useful after an entire movie of getting his shit wrecked and growing as a character.
Meanwhile Rey can handle any problem presented to her from minute one and inherits the most recognizable images in the Star Wars franchise just by nature of being present and super talented at everything and loved by everyone.
>>78320093
A definite cunt.
>>78319855
Why are morons trying to bring the cuckold term back? Are you really that desperate to announce your insecurity to the world?
>>78320066
>but since we already know who's objectively strongest
We have not seen them fight when Kylo wasn't already half dead from the start. The most we know is that Rey can resist Kylo's mind tricks.
>>78319851
But luke doesn't know him.
His uncle does because he fucking gave Luke to him.
Why is being a misogynist a bad thing again?
>>78319851
Anakin fucking built C3P0 at age 9 and was SPECIUL because he had more Force power than anyone else ever.
>>78319948
Did Luke beat Vader in Ep 4?
Shut your fucking cock-slot moron.
>>78320109
>Getting his shit wrecked
I'm having a hard time remembering any time he got his shit wrecked.
I mean the closest I can think of is he had to run away like a bitch but up until that point he didn't have much trouble.
>>78320093
A good friend.
>>78319972
Landis isn't right about anything.
>Rey
You mean Anakin 2.0? Actually, at least she doesn't whine AS much.
>>78320083
Just say Mary Sue, it's obviously gender neutral at this point .
>>78319741
Whatever I noticed Rey was a Mary Sue, but it never bothered me. If they want to make her a Mary sue they should have embraced it and gone full ham with it.
I think my only complaint about the movie was that I wanted Finn to actually feel more useful, he was cool and all but just ends up being everyone's punching bag and doesn't really bring much to the team
>>78320128
I always thought ti was implied Anakin was implied to be like that force baby Palpatine talked about, but I've only see that trilogy once so I might have made it up to try to make his shit make more sense.
>Rey is a Mary Sue
>OH YEAH WELL LUKE AND ANAKIN WERE TOO BUT THEY WERE MEN SO YOU LIKE THAT SEXIST SHITLORD
female logic
>>78320048
Luke was almost all of those.
>Every generation has a story
>Every generation has a Mary Sue
Anakin, Luke, and now Rey for the new age of children
>>78320183
How is it wrong?
>>78320161
You are literally a racist
>>78320066
his balls "were ripped" when we see him cry over Vader's helmet
>who MUST fight Rey again in future installments
Why is that? If anything, the trope dictates she will help him against Snoke with Ben redeeming himself.
Can't we talk about the bigger issue: a huge regime that indiscriminately gives power to people in black cloaks?
>>78320109
>loved by everyone
I haven't seen the movie, but this is the defining characteristic of a Sue for me. Almost everyone loves them for no apparent reason, and the people who don't are all incompetent jealous idiots. Luke isn't like that.
>>78320176
I watched those movies the other day, he's literally space jesus. His mom said there was no father and that he was immaculately conceived and then everyone kept going on about how it was the force. That, and apparently he had a super high midichlorian count or whatever the shit.
>>78320206
how am I racist?
>>78320183
>liking Anakin
Who said anything about that? The only time people like Anakin is if it's Vader or The Clone Wars Anakin.
Prequel Anakin was a whiny Sue.
>>78320132
>sand people
>bar scene
>trash compactor scene
>Vader almost fucks him up before Han saves him
Did you even watch the OT? After years of training he still gets his shit destroyed by the Emperor.
I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.
Rey wasn't a Mary Sue, but she was portrayed as being almost completely flawless and she really didn't have anything to lose throughout the thing.
>>78320194
He didn't become half until the second movie though.
>>78320132
>Got his shit wrecked by sand people, saved by Ben
>Was about to get his shit wrecked in the Cantina, saved by Ben again
>Spends the entirety of the Death Star escape sequence following someone else. Gets saved from being trash compacted by R2-D2
>Is about to get his shit blown away by Vader while running the trench, gets saved by Han Solo turning up just in time to give Luke the shot he needs
Rey is never supported this way. Her supporting cast just gives her weapons and rides to the next problem so she can solve it.
>>78320066
We haven't seen Kylo at his strongest. We saw him injured, throwing a tantrum and with incomplete training against Rey who pulled a "use the force Luke" and used her quarterstaff style with a lightsaber. Again, Kylo Ren is not Vader. He wasn't here to be the unstoppable force like Vader was.
>>78320204
Han is one of the few Star Wars characters that isn't a Mary Sue. He and Chewy are the only characters who didn't believe the Falcon was a piece of shit.
The Gleeson kid was more of a villain than Kylo Ren.
This isn't particularly surprising, since there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters, "Mary Sue" as a label stifles creativity, and authors should be actively encouraged to write self-insert fantasies. It's part of a greater effort to "remove negativity" from writer's circles and, subsequently, their writing itself.
I'm really not sure what to make of it, but it's been bewildering me for months, and started slightly before the last National Novel Writing Month. If you dig around a bit, you'll find that "Mary Sue and Proud" has become like, an actual thing.
>>78320219
Yeah that's what I thought. So I didn't make up that idea. He's literally good at everything (but not being a shit) because magic bacteria.
>Only hacks would think that
>>78319916
>I like Superman but not Batman
You should have just said that.
>Having flaws is a bad thing.
>Being fallible is a bad thing.
>Stories should only involve the protagonist being able to easily overcome large obstacles with little to no effort.
>The protagonist of a story should also be able to do all tasks, especially ones just learned, with minimal effort and as if they had been trained for years.
K. This is just bullshit honestly and things you learn not to do in, like, Creative Writing 101. Why do these people write this drivel when they clearly don't know how to tell good or even adequate stories? These are the type of people who only watch movies or play video games and try to become competent writers.
>>78320121
The question is how is thinking that a character is too flawless and uninteresting means that you hate all women. It makes not sense even from the SJW point of view.
>>78320276
Typical fucking response.
>>78320267
>If you dig around a bit, you'll find that "Mary Sue and Proud" has become like, an actual thing.
Christ wept I hate millennials.
>>78320232
>I like to reserve the use of the term Mary Sue for characters that are obvious self inserts.
Mary Sue as self-insert is a character who shares author's flaws but is treated by the world the way author feel they deserve. Including carrying out revenge to those who wrong them.
It doesn't really need self-insert for the same effect. It might be a paragon of author's views. Or just a pet character.
>>78319972
Yeah but Ren is no Vader, he just wants to be.
>people didn't like the Mary Sue-ness of Anakin
>focuses on marketing the films to prequel haters
>still makes Rey
BRAVO ABRAMS
R
A
V
O
A
B
R
A
M
S
>>78320204
WE'RE NOT COMPARING ACCOMPLISHMENTS, WE'RE COMPARING FUCK UPS
LUKE FUCKS UP
HAN FUCKS UP
EVEN VADER FUCKS UP
REY DOES NOT FUCK UP ONCE
>>78319772
I agree anon
>>78320132
Every scene of the a new hope is him getting wrecked or being unable to do anything. His only heroic moment is at the end.
>>78319741
Mangina simps keep on simping. Satisfying when they're thrown under a bus by their masters.
>>78319775
Landis sucks but he's 100% right here.
>>78319851
>professional farmer
You mean his uncle was. We never see Luke doing shit except being told to "Help with the harvest."
>Droid Mechanic
He can clean them if that's what you mean. He couldn't even identify a faulty droid until after it exploded. I guess he wanted to go buy some "Power-converters." at least?
>Pilot
Fair enough.
>Blaster user and perfect shot
He could shoot local pests with a gun. He used the force to auto-aim into the death star.
>Force User
Okay?
>Deflects... blah blah
Fair enough.
>Spy
Not really, Princess Leia immediately called him out and they blew their cover.
>Just happens blah blah...
That was R2's doing though.
>Repeller
Kek.
Shit list.
>>78320042
It's off to a much better start than the fucking prequels.
>>78319855
...wait a minutecuck desu senpai
>>78319741
That isn't Sohmer
>>78320290
It's not even a millenial thing really, I mean if you look at the dime store novels and pulp serials that Star Wars was inspired by you'll find the exact same thing. Rey could never be as big of a Mary Sue as someone like Doc Savage.
Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this shit: You got cracker farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!
Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good shit. Then this cracker, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the fuckin' universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star.
Now what the fuck do you call that?
Gentrification!
They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
>>78320305
How about when she freaks the fuck out over premonitions, runs away like a coward, and then gets fucking kidnapped
That's kind of a big fuck up
>>78320287
It's true tho.
No one of them is a mary sue, saying that one is and the other isn't just shows that he is biased.
>>78319741
Who is this? Why do you care? You can't have Mary Sues in Star Wars since the force is magic you can use to various degrees of effectiveness the more space germs you have
>>78320340
Doesn't count, too something something
>>78320204
Luke was also whiny as fuck and stupid overconfident. For proof, see him being whiny to his foster family and Han in ANH and stupid overconfident in ESB.
Han fucked up all the time. Like that time he got caught and all his skills didn't get him out of getting his ass frozen. Also he has shit people skills.
Anakin was also a whiny bitch who became the Emperor's bitch, doing bitch work for 20 some odd years. When the Emperor tells him to suck his dick, he remembers to swallow.
>>78320340
And then she easily overpowers her captors and escapes with little to no problem.
>>78320333
Nice trips i guess
>>78320225
It's a joke on the trend that you can't criticize a character in any way without being a bigot towards that character's race/gender/sexuality.
I love how instead of trying to disprove that Rey is a Mary Sue people instead try to, incorrectly, point out that Luke was one.
>>78320048
Crack shot? She missed more than she hit.
>>78320379
ah gotcha, sorry to ruin the joke
>>78320340
And then outsmarts her captors, escapes, and beats her personal antagonist in both physical combat and a battle of wills with no training of any kind?
Is it really fucking up if the character isn't forced to grow in some way due to the fuck up?
>>78320369
Just like how Luke rescues Leia with little to no problem, constantly getting bailed out by his friends when there's any sort of danger, just like Rey.
>knows the Millenium Falcon better than Han
>not a mary sue
>>78320305
The entire second half of the movie is about her getting kidnapped because she was too afraid to confront her destiny literally what the fuck movie did you watch
>>78319741
>I hate the term "character flaws"
Okay
>>78320087
This tho
>>78320404
Rey was never bailed out by her friends.
Not once.
>>78320399
Kylo was fucking handicapped and injured in his lightsaber fight with her, and when Rey beats him in a battle of wills, it's not a testament to her power, it's a testament to how mentally weak Kylo actually is.
Luke is saved tons of times in the original trilogy, he is saved by obi wan in the bar, by leia, obi-wan again againts vader, by han in hoth, etc. Even at the end he is saved by Vader againts the emperor. Luke was a good character because they were not trying to write a "STRONG INDEPENDENT CHARACTER WHO NEEDS NO MAN" they were trying to write a hero rising againts all odds.
>>78319851
>He knows that one guy ON A WHOLE PLANET
But that has nothing to do with the force, it's because Ben is some old freak who lives a few miles away
>>78320132
He got owned by a Sand Person at the beginning of a New Hope, he almost got raped at the Catina, he got tentacle raped in the trash compactor, Vader was about to rape his boipussi in the X-Wing vs Tie Fighter Death Star fight
And that's just a New Hope!
>>78319741
>If you think Mary Sue is a valid and meaningful criticism of a character, there's a very good chance you're a misogynist
So does this guy think male characters aren't accused of being Mary Sues then?
>>78320438
Kind of sounds like they wrote a hero who just needs to be bailed out and couldn't do anything himself.
>>78320267
I can confirm, there's posts going around tumblr recently about "destigmatizing" author wish fulfillment narratives and actively encouraging writers to experiment with stories about characters who are infallible as a form of personal empowerment.
>>78320404
Luke does not rescue Leia. Han and Ben do. Luke is literally just following orders, and even then only being marginally useful.
Like the order to go get the Princess while Han deals with the console in the detention block?
There are two times in the Death Star escape sequence where Luke is useful. When he swings across the trench using the grappling hook, and when he thinks to call R2 and C3PO to shut off the trash compactor, and he's begging for his life when he does so.
Tropes were a mistake
>>78320466
He did what thousands of Jedi couldn't and turned Anakin away from darkness and bad writing.
>>78320438
So what, you want them to write another character that's just Luke again?
>>78320466
That's the thing he did stuff, he still was the protagonist, but he needed other people he wasn't a one man army like Rey is
>>78319851
>Pilot
>Blaster user and perfect shot
>Force user
>Deflects laser blasts with lightsaber
>Destroys Death Star using the force after one hour of instruction
All of these are explainable via the fact that he's a latent Force user. He had to learn how to get in touch with the Force, and then the Force did the rest. He only had one lesson to learn in order to be able to do everything he had to do in the movie.
>>78320489
The movie is already pretty much a full blown remake of a new hope, they could have at least gave us a relatable main character.
>>78320494
How the fuck was Rey a one man army? She managed to get out of some restraints but she still needed a goddamn rescue
Honestly maybe they should have just made Finn the force sensitive one and had Ray be a Han Solo type mundane hero
This is why no one writes women.
They have to be flawless.
/a/ here
Rey is female Kira Yamoto
Rey is not female Luke Skywalker
You may now go on watching cartoons about fat lesbians
>>78320489
Writing a character that's a human being would be nice.
>>78319916
>the public's perception of "HE'S THE STRONGEST OF ALL TIME HE'S BORING"
This IS him being seen as a Mary Sue. He's overpowered and perfect, therefore he's boring. That's what Mary Sue means when applied to characters like Superman.
It's true though. People have a bizarre conception of what makes a good character a lot of the time.
>>78320489
Wait, I thought Rey was identical to Luke, thus making all criticism of her hypocritical. Please pick an argument and stick with it.
>>78320489
Why not, they basically just rewrote New Hope desu senpai.
>>78320467
I mean, that's how we got stories like Superman.
>>78319772
I didn't mind her either, but the force mind control thing was really, really bad. It was the only moment I became upset at the movie, that andeveryone forgetting Han Solo a few minutes later
>>78320541
No, that's him being judged by people that don't have any knowledge of him outside of his powerset.
If Rey was a male I doubt people would be defending her
No offense to her actress. Her actress was great. But the character is obnoxiously perfect.
>>78319741
>the term that was coined on female self-insert characters in star wars fanfics
>>78320516
She pilots the millenium falcon better than han, she is an expert mechanic, she is perfectly capable of understanding how to use the force without training or guidance and she is capable of using a lightsaber at the same level than people who had been training with them for years. She doesn't need anyone, the rest of the characters are filler.
>>78320541
The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent. That's why things like "Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman" is so potent. Superman is always trying to do the right thing, but knowing what the right thing is in all situations isn't fucking possible.
Rey is actually never challenged in TFA.
>>78320541
He isn't boring at all, you just struggle to understand stories and symbolism
>>78320406
>Rey has spent her whole life living in piece of shit junk piles like the Falcon
>Has to know parts and how they work because she scavenges and sells them
>Knows what modifications were done to the ship
>Han has not seen the Falcon in YEARS, and it has been modified by at least three people since he last was in it
Wow that's dumb.
>>78320541
>He's overpowered
Not in his own stories. Just compared to the other loser heroes at DC
Overconfident, spunky action girls are tired and cliche at this point give me more awkward dumbly social fuckup female leads
>>78319772
I thought she was cute
>>78320551
Personally, as a reader, not a writer, I feel that "What are character's flaws" is a flawed concept. Unless you make some kind of didactic thematic thing. One man's flaws is another man's virtue anyway.
What is the character like and what do they want and what can they do. What you should try to avoid is looking like you have pets, have world react realistically to your character and don't insist on punishing or vilifying any detractors. This tends to get jarring.
>>78320591
Star Trek.
>>78320599
Didn't know all flight engineers were also ace pilots, anon, tell me more.
>>78320131
Of course he did, he blew up the thing Vader was trying to protect and sent him spiralling into space.
>Crack shot
>Master Mechanic
>Skilled Melee fighter
>Ace Pilot
I have to go into depth with this one. She pilots the Falcon, a ship optimized for Zero gravity, under the normal gravity of a planet, through the derelict wreckage of a Imperial Cruiser, and around trained Tie fighter pilots.
>Jedi
Now, I'll give her the saber battle. Ren was shot, mentally unstable, and tired from his battle with Finn.
>New Captain of the Millennium Falcon
I just fucking explain this one to you. It is what it is.
The Movie is 7/10, but there are some serious flaws here.
>>78320564
>force mind control thing
You mean the mind trick that has been a staple of the franchise since A New Hope?
>>78320267
>there's an active movement in amateur writer circles right now promoting the ideas that there's nothing wrong with wanting to write flawless characters
You mean in a "guilty pleasure" way? If they're not delusional and understand that no one will want to read that shit and it's just for them, I can understand it.
>>78319948
Luke couldn't get anywhere without help, not even in the big finish when he's a master, he still needed is maimed dad to beat the emperor.
>>78320229
Read the thread retard
>>78320591
Star TREK you fucking imbecile
Ensign Mary Sue was from a STAR TREK fan character.
Jesus Christ.
>>78320648
Yes. But not because it exists, but because she did without any effort at all.
>>78320588
If Rey was a male we probably wouldn't be having the argument at all.
>>78320591
>can't tell the difference between star wars and star trek
>>78320658
>star trek fanfiction
How the times have changed
>>78320680
Bullshit. I'd be just as pissed.
>>78320595
>The thing is, Superman's struggles aren't physical, but he does struggle internally. Or at least he's supposed to when he's handled by someone competent.
Golden Age Superman really didn't, and those stories kind of kick ass. Hell, Silver Age Superman usually wasn't that emotionally challenged either. You're talking from a purely Bronze Age forward interpretation of the character, and arguably not his strongest era.
>>78320593
Pilots better than Han?
That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head and she spent most of her flight going 'Oh god, I'm trying anything I can to make this work'. I seriously doubt she could have made the landing on Starkiller Base.
She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already. Kylo Ren had been shot in the gut with a bowcaster and taken some nasty hits against Finn already.
The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.
The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
>>78320648
The staple power that only Jedi masters are able to use.
>>78319741
>any and all criticism of female characters is misogynist
jesus christ when does this shit end?
>>78320588
If Rey was a male, we would just accept that he's a bad ass.
People can't accept a competent woman character.
>>78320647
>>78320647
Also, I totally forgot to add the fact that she was able to not only combat and resist Kylo's force mind tricks, but was able to go into his mind and extract information as well.
Hell, all of this can be forgiven if my friend is telling the truth:He actually works for Disney in a writing capacity and claims that Rey was the student who destroyed Luke's new Jedi training camp, which is why she was exiled on Jakku. It's the fact that the Dark side of the force is fueled by passion and rage that causes Rey to be so adept in the areas that she shines in
>>78320333
What's a nubian?
>>78320604
She's not overconfident or spunky, her character is actually somewhat blandly serious. My only real complaint with her was that they didn't let her be fun or funny like Poe and Finn and BB8.
>If you think "Mary Sue" is a valid and meaningful criticism of a character, there's a very good chance you're a misogynist.
>>78320059
Honestly people are going to bitch, but this guy has a point
I think part of it is because of the politicized environment we're in. When a male character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's just seen as an individual action. When a female character gets shit-talked and then displays surprising competence, it's almost always played for "WHOA U MISOGYNIST MEN THOUGHT THAT A GIRL COULDN'T DO THIS WELL GUESS WHAT BOYS GRRL POWER MOVE OVER"
To give a more familiar example: There IS a sort of dynamic like this going on with Luke in the originals. There's a bit of a "Simple farm boy" vs. "Sophisticated city slicker" kind of thing going on between him and Han. Not played up too much, of course, but it's there. And, if you were looking for it, some moments COULD come across as "YEAH IN YOUR FACE CITY DWELLERS FARM BOYS CAN DO THIS SHIT TOO." The thing is, sadly, that I don't think that country vs. city is nearly as politicized nowadays as women vs. men is.
>>78320724
Luke used it in Return of the Jedi and he was a Knight, not a Master.
>>78320680
>saying this on the same board that can't go 10 mintues without calling a DC hero a mary sue/gary stu
>>78320680
Nah he'd be the new major protagonist of an overhyped series with tons of fans, he'd be getting compared to everyone who preceded him and whether or not he was a worthy legacy or whatever and would have to compete with everyones warped vision of what that should be.
>>78320726
She's not competent, she's flawless.
She has to be.
You can't make her anything less or you'd be accused of being a sexist.
Kylo Ren is good character with interesting motivations and internal struggle. But very weak main villain in an action-adventure story. The ginger general was better as the villain, he should be the "final boss" and if you could not do action with him, should have given some fucking room the chief storm-trooper.
I do know there are established reasons why he is weak in the final confrontation (being heavily wounded, emotionally unstable), but it just sucks if the main boss is a little bitch.
>>78320680
actually i have had this argument with people before when I believe people are writing Batman in full swing Mary Sue mode
>>78320637
you know. in hindsight its kindof funny Luke's background and skillset NEVER gets used. at best, you just have the "I used to bullseye wamprats in my T-16.."
And there is the noting he intended to join the Resistance as a pilot.
But the actual moisture farming, etc. nothing. not even when they return to Tatoonie for Jabba.
more typical writing would have had him infiltrate Jabba's palace as a water merchant or something..
>>78320738
He's also the son of a guy who had a virgin birth due to his high midochlorian count.
If Rey isn't Luke or Leia's daughter, or another granddaughter of Anakin, it's just shit.
>>78320743
People have listed her flaws in this very fucking thread. You refuse to listen to them because if you accepted she might be a decent character, you'd be siding with SJWs.
>>78320730
>literal 'my dad works for nintendo' post
>>78320730
I really hope someone believes and tries to pass on this complete bullshit.
>>78320778
She's a totally fucking bland character.
>>78320769
The former Padawan who never finished his training also uses it in Rebels. Not often but he does.
>>78320778
I think she's a decent character. I liked her. I just think they made her too perfect and I don't think she really had anything at stake in the movie. It all came very easy to her.
>>78319741
I wish someone would set up a Patreon dedicated solely to punching him in the face. I've never seen anybody who talks so much despite knowing nothing about anything.
Rey is what they have been doing to Leia in EU for years
>>78320769
You know she is, that backstory's not going to have her abandoned family be a bunch of new nobodies.
>>78320778
To be fair who wants to side with Aaron Diaz?
>>78320204
Luke was going to get killed by raiders without Obi-wans help
Luke was going to get his ass beat by bar flies without hans help
Luke was going to going to get crushed in the trash compactor without R2's help.
Luke would've been killed in the trench run, if it weren't for the unfortunate fucks that took the shelling from the back with him the lead.
Luke would've been killed by Vader, if it weren't for Han saving his ass to make the shot.
Luke got his ass kicked by Vader, needed Leia & Lando to save his ass.
Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.
Rei Skywalker.
>I think I can handle myself!
>>78320783
>>78320785
I myself think it's bullshit, which is why Rey's character can't be forgiven so easily.
If my friend is putting on, which I know he is, then Rey is a Mary Sue. Only the dark side could explain how she literally out maneuvered Kylo Ren with the force on several occasions.
>>78320778
Other people have explained that, because she's never forced to grow as a character due to those supposed flaws, they aren't actually flaws.
You're just so obsessed with sounding "moderate" that you refuse to call a spade a spade.
She's not a Mary Sue, she's Hoak Hogan with tits - right down to the fact that most of her allies are afterthoughts. And that's even worse.
Replace her with peak Hulkamania Hogan, and nothing changes.
>>78320794
I thought anything that wasn't the movies or the TV specials from the 70s wasn't supposed to be "true" canon
>>78320720
>That's a strong argument to make considering we never saw them go head to head
That's what Han says.
>She also manages to beat a guy in a lightsaber duel who's been shot and slashed up with a lightsaber already.
He was a little bit rough up, but she never used a lightsaber before that point, that guy should have beat her even while being a little bit injured.
>The Mechanic part was a clearly established part of her backstory as a scavenger.
Yes scavenger are well known for being tech engineers. When i have a problem with my computer i call the scraptyard.
>The force came a bit faster than most but Ezra Bridger pushed shit with the force with no training so it looks like it's not something that's impossible without training.
I don't care about non-canon shit, the force needs to be trained to be use to the level that she was using it.
>>78320811
Let's be fair, Anon, to all of them. The movie characters might as well be a pantheon of gods in the EU.
>>78320824
Wow you really hate woman
>>78320324
>Fair enough.
That's not a Mary Sue trait though. He states in the briefing scene that he used to fly and shoot womp rats all the time back home. He's the Star Wars equivalent of a redneck kid who's a good shot because he goes out and shoots squirrels and shit all the time.
>>78320738
Yes, after training for years to use it.
>>78319972
While shit, Ren was clearly trying to not hurt his sister.
>>78320726
>People can't accept a competent woman character
Ridley from Alien
Sarah Connor from Terminator
Ahsoka from Star Wars Clone Wars
These are competent female characters and are pretty awesome, and guess what they have flaws and learn from their mistakes
>>78320832
>You know, I can take anything from you I want
>JUST TRY IT, BROTHER
>>78320847
This is true.
The only EU thing I ever read was Death Troopers and Han and Chewie are shoe-horned into that really awkwardly and as soon as they show up they're made completely immune to the zombine virus.
>>78320836
The only things that are canon are the movies, The Clone Wars CGI series, and anything released after the Disney purchase, which includes Rebels.
>>78320797
Eh, she was a much worse shot than Finn (She fucked up firing the pistol and has about the lowest stormtrooper kill count in the entire series for a protagonist) and she's got her own emotional issues that mirror Kylo Ren's.
She's a light side mirror to him. Powerful in the force but with emotional issues related to belonging and family. He's more trained but more unstable, she's a bit more focused but so far untrained (Hence trying to use the lightsaber like a spear for most of the fight)
>>78320824
But anon, she is so strong and independent!
>>78320897
>She's a light side mirror to him.
This is a good point. I haven't seen this raised before.
>>78320873
>Ridley
barely looks like a woman, doesn't count
>Sarha Connor
so competent couldn't stop the nuclear disaster
>Ashoka
kids cartoon
>>78320836
Nah, the new cartoons and books (Including Rebels) are canon.
So a Ex-Padawan who's spent most of his life trying to avoid his force powers (According to his book) can use the Mind Trick.
>>78319881
Nah, she looks like that throughout the whole ordeal
>>78320824
>Luke was going to get his ass beat by bar flies without hans help
i meant obi wan's help, damn it.
>>78320669
That's not true, she had to try it multiple times before it worked.
And the speed with which she learns to use the force is consistent with the original trilogy. It's supposed to be this thing that guides you and takes the wheel for you if you believe hard enough, not the "you literally go to an academy and train from childhood to adulthood" thing that George fucked up and made it into in the prequels.
Plus Kylo was shitty at fighting and wounded. I don't know where all this shit that Rey was too good too soon is even coming from.
>>78319948
Luke was the child of one of the greatest Force users in recent history, had guidance by another of the greatest and used it to guide a shot in "don't think, feel" samurai movie fashion.
Rei is doing fucking Jedi mind trick shit after an hour, shit that we only see Obi-Wan and Luke after training under Yoda do in the OT.
>>78320791
She's no more bland than Luke is.
>>78320860
i'll take your post as sarcasm but let me be cautious here and just say Fuck you if you're genuine.
>>78320824
>Luke would've been a Jedi medium rare steak if it weren't for his own Dad.
The rest of these you have points on, but Lucas said Luke would've been able to go in there and curbstomp both Vader and Palpatine if he really wanted to. He didn't because he knew that lowering his guard would be the only way to get Vader to show compassion. If he hadn't tossed his saber away he'd have had no problem dealing with Palpatine's sparklers.
Even if you like Rey you have to admit that scene where she first uses a Jedi mind trick to remove her restraints was dumb.
>no hand gestures
>>78320021
He basically sucker punched Vader like the nigger he is.
>>78320897
The difference is her "flaws" don't affect her actions or competency in any way.
In that sense, the movie would be way more interesting told from the point of view of Kylo. Even with all his anger and training and his black robes and one-of-a-kind lightsaber and with an army at his back, he just can't measure up to this girl who seems perfect in every way. He kills his father to try to be but it doesn't work and all he's left with is failure.
Kylo is so clearly the best part of the movie.
>>78320935
Alright man, you know what? You're right. This movie was made for people like you, not people like me.
Enjoy.
If any rando can pick up a lightsaber and use it than why don't more people fight with lightsabers
Of all the EU things to undo why would you undo only Jedi/Sith being able to wield lightsabers, eg., the only part of the EU that really made sense
>>78320267
And this is how art dies...
>>78320981
Because you need the force to really be able to deflect laser shots, and if you can do that you might as well have a kitchen knife
>>78320980
Well I'm glad we have concluded that the film was made for people who enjoy things instead of pedantic shitheads that look for reasons to get angry at girls being good at things in popular media
Glad movies are getting made for me and not you, pham
>>78320962
Lucas did not direct Return and he can say whatever he likes, but that's not the way the scene is presented.
>>78319741
>I kinda even hate the term "character flaws" because it sounds like you're balancing an RPG stat sheet. No one should write like that"
How are Character Flaws a bad thing? Even Kenshiro was able to fail in Fist of the North Star, and he's basically the definition of a flawless character.
>>78319773
He puts ketchup on his steak
>>78320920
>>78320889
So which is it?
>>78321011
*can't
>>78320873
The only one from the Internet age is Ahsoka, and if you think people didn't hate her or call her a Mary Sue for years I'd like to know what alternate timeline you hail from.
>>78320329
If that's the case, then I don't see how the trend of relentlessly mocking old pulp fiction can continue. How can one make fun of that stuff for being bombastic and over-the-top, and then turn around and make something just as corny? And it's always amateur writers and caustic critics that do that shit, so there would be plenty of hypocrisy involved if this takes off.
>>78320680
Nigger, have you ever been in a Batman thread? Or, God help you, a DOOM thread?
Nah, she isn't a mary sue. Mary sues don't have flaws.
I dunno how to describe it exactly, but somebody who's told she's a Jedi and offered a free lightsaber and turns it down has got to have something wrong in the head.
>>78320977
Her flaws are the entire reason she got grabbed, knocked out and captured by Kylo Ren. That is how Uninjured, Focused Kylo Ren vs Her went.
If her friends hadn't turned up to help her, she'd have been spread all over the ground when she encountered Ren trying to make her way to a ship or just killed by the huge amounts of AA Starkiller base had.
>>78321034
Both of those are agreeing? They are saying that movies, cartoons and books are canon.
>>78320981
The thing was never that only Jedi/Sith can use them, it's that they can only be proficient enough with them for stuff like blocking shots, or twirling them around without maiming themselves.
Also I'm assuming that Finn is force-sensitive just not as powerful as Rey. Because otherwise Finn being able to fight Kylo Ren somewhat competently is a much bigger problem than Rey being able to beat him, t b h.
>>78320972
I was hoping her guard would just say something like "Why would I ever do that?"
>>78320981
There aren't that many sabers in existence, I think constructing one actually requires force powers.
Plus you could accidentally cut yourself to pieces so it's a personal choice thing, like "Well I could fight with this, but it's just as fucking dangerous to me as to my opponent".
Why do so many people use guns in the real world? Because it's WAY fucking easier to kill someone with a gun than learning to fucking fence.
>>78320983
Again, old writing and adventure stories did this all the fucking time, it's only fairly recently that people have thought only relatable underdogs could be good characters.
>>78320824
>Rey would have been blased by TIE fighters without Finn's knowledge and manning the guns
>Rey doesn't even know to take the safety off, is lousy shot
>Rey gets bodied by Kylo Ren, is saved only because she's seen the map and gets easily knocked out and kidnapped
>Only able to out-mindrape Ren because he gets cocky and mind reads extraneous backstory shit and pisses her off
>Rey still needed to get bailed out by Han, Finn, and Chewie.
>Rey would've gotten her ass kicked by Ren if he wasn't bleeding out and not trying to kill her
>Would have died on an exploding sunplanet mourning her husbando were it not for Chewie finding her in the Falcon.
Basically, blame Ren
>>78321088
I assume Finn knew how to use a lightsaber because he was trained from birth for war. So it makes sense that he'd know how to use all sorts of weapons.
>>78321041
I'm sure people have called her a mary sue, a lot of people get called that in the internet age. However I can at least say that personally I don't think she is a Mary Sue.
She had stakes to fight for, she had purpose. She failed at things and learned throughout the series.
However Rey just tries things and they work, she just knows it. Whatever if you like Rey or other people like her that's fine, however she is a Mary Sue. I for one don't think her being a Mary Sue is a bad thing, but it does need to be full ham and embraced if you want to go that route with her
>>78321029
>Luke tosses saber away and leaves himself directly open
Luke is shown to be an entirely different animal in ROTJ from start to finish. All it took to get Palpatine was lift him up. Hell Luke didn't even get disfigured or horribly burned from lightning like some do.
Lucas created the whole series and his word on the first six movies is final regardless. I know it's popular to hate the guy because of some mediocre prequel movies but that's the bottom line. There's nothing in that scene that suggests Luke wouldn't have been able to take both of them. The scene is presented as Luke refusing to fight at all because that's the way he knows will win the battle and also win his father back, thus gaining the moral victory as well.
>>78320981
Anybody can pick up a sword and use it. You're still going to get your ass handed to you by somebody who has been trained. Unless he was shot in the stomach before hand of course
>>78319741
This bothered me too, it's also why I like Finn better as a character because he's the only one who had a full arc in the movie.
Finn isn't a perfect character; he's ignorant, emotionally unstable, naive, and is thrust into a situation he does not want to be in. This makes him more realistic as a character.
Rey is a bland character. Her actress was spectacular, but JJ could have done so much more with her in that movie than he did.
What's wrong with making a woman character have flaws? I mean if we're going down the politically correct route here where is all the butt-hurt from making the black guy look like a complete spaz at the beginning of the movie?
JJ's just been pussy-whipped by Disney because they need another princess.
