I have seen people claim that cape comics (mainly from DC and Marvel) do fight scenes really poorly and I wonder do you agree with this?
Post some pages from your favourite fights.
>>78200125
I don't have a lot of them saved so I'll just list some good cape fight artists
>Miller
>Aja
>Quietly
>Jusko
>Burnham
>John Paul Leon
>Michel Fiffe
>Nicola scott
There's an issue of Sinestro Corps. War with this issue-long drag-out fight between Sodam Yat and Superboy Prime. That. I'm not posting it because I don't have scans, and need to go to work, but that.
Any fights that flow as well as this?
>Same thread topic
>same thread OP pic
>>78200614
This and the issue before it are great fighting issues!
You can say whatever you want about manga, but when it comes to particular shonen artists, they can action very well, much better than any comic artist in the west.
And I don't read manga outside of DBZ and One Punch Man.
Only a handful of western artists actually put in the work. Japan has spoiled me rotten on fight scenes. After reading stuff like Battle Angel, Berserk, and Lone Wolf and Cub; most western stuff just pails in comparison.
>>78200614
This isn't really any better than like 85% of cape fights
>>78202577
This issue of Omega Men was pretty great.
I think the main reason battle manga has an advantage over superhero comics in terms of battle scenes is something as simple as length
Your average on-schedule manga will have something 50-80 pages a month, as opposed to the 22 you get with a single superhero title. That is a ton of extra pages, so you can make action scenes very intricate over the course of multiple chapters.
But it's not just that. A title willgenerally be written by a single author (or team), with a definite endpoint. This provides added impact of knowing that this will not be the 10001th time that Spunky Fighting Hero fights Ruthless Arrogant Bad Guy and wins. There's no mandate to pay lip service to shared universe stuff. You can make a terrifyingly threatening bad guy without the question of "Why not call up a more powerful hero/hero team?" coming up
Basically, battle manga has a lot of advantages that lead to it's fight scenes tending to be better, in my opinion. Superhero comic fights could be just as good, but for a variety of reasons, they're not really designed to be.
>>78202759
Just came here to say this myself.
Superhero comics already have huge issues with decompression. Stories that could be told in one or two issues to tell are now stretched over 6 issue arcs bare minimum, so you're effectively getting less bang for your buck in a sense. If they started including manga-style fight scenes on top of the decompression, things would never get done. Manga comes out more frequently and is substantially cheaper, so it's easier to stretch out fight scenes and make them more dynamic.
There are a few western comics I've seen do it well, though. UDON does comic adaptations of CAPCOM's fighting games and manages to have manga-style fight scenes despite having a western comic's style of release, but they also convey a lot of the story through the fights. Superhero comics are arguably less about fighting compared to battle shounen and adaptations of fighting games are, so it would probably be more difficult to work in fight scenes that are longer than a few pages, let alone take up most of an issue.
Still, pic related has better choreography and dynamics than most fight scenes in superhero comics and the action's only three and a half pages, which is probably about how long a fight scene in a superhero comic is anyway, so it might also be a matter of artists not wanting to have the "cinematic" fight scenes that are more prevalent in manga.
>>78202300
You're insane.
>>78203325
>Manga comes out more frequently
Not all battle manga are weekly.
>>78202759
>This provides added impact of knowing that this will not be the 10001th time that Spunky Fighting Hero fights Ruthless Arrogant Bad Guy and wins. There's no mandate to pay lip service to shared universe stuff. You can make a terrifyingly threatening bad guy without the question of "Why not call up a more powerful hero/hero team?" coming up
I think you are right on the money with your points about manga length and having an endpoint, but I think you're wrong here.
Isn't a common criticism of shounen manga that it basically IS an endless iteration of "Spunky Fighting Hero fights Ruthless Arrogant Bad Guy and wins"? That's basically the point of shounen manga, from old stuff like Fist of the North Star to DBZ to Naruto. And endless procession of: main character meets new arrogant villain, loses, learns new technique/finds the strength inside himself, wins.
There also tends to be an endless series of main character learning the ULTIMATE TECHNIQUE to defeat a villain, then a new villain comes along and the character discovers the ULTIMATE ULTIMATE TECHNIQUE, and so on.
I agree that manga has better fights overall, but they have their dumb tropes as well.
>>78202300
Any examples to post?
>>78203418
That's true. There are a lot of series with irregular release schedules. But the trendsetters have traditionally been weekly series. Decompression is much more prevalent and widespread in manga, and it's probably a result of that.
But like I said, it also helps that manga is cheaper. $20 will net you about 132 pages of a western comic (assuming it's 22 pages an issue and 6 issues total) while the first VIZBig edition of Dragon Ball is also $20, but 560 pages. If they spend 32 pages doing a fight scene in a western comic (which I've seen on occasion in manga), that's about a quarter of the trade, meaning I just spent $5 on that fight scene that probably didn't move the plot forward very much. Meanwhile, it's a little more than a 17th of the manga collection, so the equivalent of a little more than a dollar for the same amount of content.
I think part of the reason I find it more tolerable when manga does it because of money.
>>78203418
Not all, but it's true that manga very often comes out a lot more frequently so there are simply more pages for fights to be shown on.
>>78202754
the motion isn't very well drawn
>>78202759
nope, the problem is that american artists don't know how to draw motion.
Copra is the best superhero action comic on-going. There's an issue that's literally just one long chase scene with no dialogue and it's glorious. But yea overall the average cape comic fucking sucks when it comes to actual action. Vast majority of the time the "action" is just the characters posing while surrounded in speech bubbles.
Just read anything drawn by Tradd Moore
there are western non-capes that do fights pretty well. Overall though I have to give the tip of the hat to japanese comics for sheer fluidity and dynamicism
>>78200614
>>78203638
What series is this?
>>78204022
One Punch Man.
>>78204022
Onepunch. Not to /a/, but it's pretty much brilliant.
Shounen is to it as a chocolate chip granola bar is to a chocolate bar. Nobody likes oats stop adding oats just give me more chocolate like a filthy domesticated animal.
>>78204047
>>78204099
I want to finally get into OPM.
Would you guys reccomend to start with the webcomic, the manga or the anime?
>>78204160
Just read the manga, the anime is alright but it's dropping the ball with some of the framing. Though you could watch it for some of the sakuga animation.
>>78204206
So i should skip the webcomic?
It came first before the manga, right?
Make your own.
>>78204276
Look at the webcomic art and decide for yourself.
Yeah western comics seem to either suck at action scenes or are just average.
>>78204329
>>78204350
>>78203671
>the motion isn't very well drawn
you are very wrong.
problem with that page is largely the coloring.
coloring is good for a static image. But fails to accent the motion.
Backgrounds REALLY stand out as killing any motion.. you could just take that blotchy background and angle it so it lines up with line of action, with each panel, and it would completely redo how those panels feel.
Second thing to do, color outside the lineart a bit, making an effective motion blur.
>>78204362
>>78204384
>>78204413
>>78204430
>>78204473
>>78200614
That was pretty terrible, far too much DBZ sun lines. Had no gravitas, it was just boring. Maybe if I read the whole issue it would be better but as it is as a stand alone, it's terrible.
awww yiiiss motherfucking capullo saving the day
>>78204329
Berserk has always been really fluid, but up until almost the Eclipse (I think the fight with the monkey guy) everything is also so overdrawn that the scans I read just devolved into chaos.
The cutaway panels are almost humorous because without Guts saying "He Evaded!!" I would have almost no idea what happned in panel 4.
>>78204329
Well, French do it best. If you want good action look at Requiem
>>78202759
It's more that manga artists have an incentive to draw things out as long as humanly possible, they get paid by the chapter and are expected to keep a weekly schedule indefinitely.
Comics are significantly more expensive and customers expect to receive a certain amount of actual story content, even with decompression. Stories have to be resolved within a couple issues and dynamic fights take up a lot of space, that's why good motion scenes are always in OGNs.
>>78204546
Thats the point though. Movement is inhumanly fast. Its not that hard to see zodd evade that strike anyway.
>>78204628
Sorry guys I just had to post that fight. Its too good.
>>78200614
>manga
>flows well
Some of the panels you can't even tell what's happening without context.
>>78202577
>>78202592
Any more of these?
>>78204666
Not that you're wrong but I've seen plenty of lazy incomprehensible panels in comics, even from artists I really like like Frank Quitely.
>>78204518
>DBZ sun lines
?
>>78204666
You blind satan? Theres usually a logical flow you can percieve. Of course its going to look like a blur, that the point. Incomprehensible speed. I wish stuff like superman comics tried it somehow. The man of steel moves incredibly fast and hits hard yet he looks like any other street brawler.
>>78200614
I can never follow mango fight scenes. There's always a fuckton of action lines and implied actions. They're great animated but on page it's just confusing
>>78201963
OPM is a very unique case. It's basically a flipbook
>>78206154
Are you blind? Im surprised you can read anything at all then.
>>78206154
Even these two? >>78202577
>>78202592
>>78206867
I can follow those. Toriyama's sequences seem slower. Or maybe they're clearer, I dunno
>>78200614
>>78202577
>>78202592
>>78203638
to be fair manga artist have a pretty strong market behind them, i mean, yo can have 20 pages of pure action in a manga but five or six in a cape comic, they need to put a lot of thing togheter between plot, drama, some sexy shit and fights, a manga artist can focus one chapter in drama, ten in action, five in sexy things, the market and competition are so much bigger in there
also they work like ten times more, wich gives them the skills to put that kiond of shit off, but is a high price to pay, since they almost cant do anythiong else and end up enagenated
It's helpful to remember that One Punch Man is a satire/spoof of standard shounen manga cliches.
While manga does devote more pages, I find some of it to be way too over the top, I don't trust your average reader to have any semblance of taste either way, nevermind battle manga and capeshit readers.
Cape comics having color, more experimental artists and relying on action movie tropes, rather than GRAAAAH ARRRGH INSTANT TELEPORT HOW COULD HE more than makes up for the compression.
>>78207548
>Cape comics having color
its the exact opposite, color kills dinamism this anon gets it right
>>78204368
>>78207683
It really, really doesn't. If you're older than 25 and have more than a couple of shouhen manga in you, the overdrawn lines of motion get really, really boring, real, real fast.
Some one post some Frank Franking up peoples day.
>>78207569
Tradd Moore is one of the new artists in western comics who really knows how to do action sequences well. It was actually kind of jarring to see the difference between his Ghost Rider and most other superhero comics.
>>78207569
I love it. Moore knows exactly how to have each panel set up for the next. I wish someone would let him just go wild with an action comic. Luther Strode is great, but I want more.
>>78207827
Few, not new.
>>78207683
If color is a death sentence for dynamics, then how come >>78203325 still flows well? It's certainly not as nice as One Punch Man by any means, but One Punch Man is exceptional in this aspect, even by manga standards.
Coloring isn't the primary problem with conveying motion and fight scenes in western comics. While I'll admit that shoddy coloring could hamper it, the primary flaw seems to be perspective. The Omega Men fight scene is nice, but it uses a static "camera" angle, and it does so as a stylistic choice. By contrast, One Punch Man gets crazy with its "camera", and it gives the action more of an impact.
I don't think one is objectively better than the other, but it's partially dependent on the type of story you're trying to portray. The static camera works for Omega Men, but it would never fly in most battle manga as a result -- One Punch Man included, even if it is a parody.
>>78207840
>>78207569
He knows how to balance action and the story. One of my problems with Baki: Dou, is that I wish for plot development, the fights go on and on, I know it's the point of the manga, but having read it so long, I want to observe those characters doing something else, talk about cognitive dissonance.
>>78207918
I'm the complete opposite. I read Baki almost exclusively for the fights. The story just helps give context to the fights. I want Moore to make a western Baki.
My brother has been trying to shill OPM to me for awhile now and this thread finally convinced me to check it out. thanks, /co/!
>>78207903
The main problem with western fight scenes is the choreography. The Omega Man fight is fine in both panel layout and movement, but the panels don't flow together very well. They feel like unrelated actions. Compare that to the Moore fight or the Street Fighter fight where each panel leads logically into the next.
>>78207903
maybe kill was a extreme term, lets just say color slow down motion, the picture tou posted for example has a really good artwork for dinamism, but it will be more strong with a grey palete alone and some changes in the composition
>>78207718
it really does, its basic color theory, just ask yourself why a movement like the impressionist needed to happen, color give to much information to the composition and sacrifice flow for image complexity, if you wanna see color pages with good flow look up the metabarones from juan gimenez, he does some neat tricks and impresionist techniques
sorry for the typos, english is a second language to me
>>78208992
>>78206183
>>78205387
>>78205113
>>78204661
>>78204628
>>78204524
>>78204206
>>78203638
Alright. One Punch Man paperbook volumes do not contain the flipbook pages, I own them. Those pages are only available on Muratas website.
>>78202577
>>78202592
Toriyama ignores backgrounds.
>>78204329
>>78204350
>>78204362
I am going to be cruel and ask: did he ever get of that boat? The story of Berserk could have been told within 50 chapters and have been done well at that.
I like all of the above but >>78203647 makes a the /thread
The western comic book industry is maybe selling 500 000 issues a month + various merch such as whole volumes and extras, they fight tooth and nail for every customer and cannot afford something that increases production costs but might discourage readers such as pseudo-animated fight scenes. What the west produces right now is what the core audience wants to buy.
>>78209636
>I am going to be cruel and ask: did he ever get of that boat?
Yes, he got off a few weeks back.
There was even a massive sticky on /a/ to celebrate,
>>78209636
>did he ever get of that boat?
Yes. Recently.
>>78202759
>There's no mandate to pay lip service to shared universe stuff. You can make a terrifyingly threatening bad guy without the question of "Why not call up a more powerful hero/hero team?" coming up
I love cape comics and I just bought 60 bucks worth of Ultimate and Uber but you underestimate how bad writing can get.
At the end of pic related we had:
>Age of ultron
where Thor dies and wolverine goes grant morrison on the time continuity
>That Red skull takes Xaviers brain comic
Do not remember what it was really called but basically Thor becomes Hypnotized by the xavier brained red skull
>Infinity
Thor is fighting thanos.
This was within 1 month after Muh Pheonix! WITHIN EARTH-616!
>>78209636
>One Punch Man paperbook volumes do not contain the flipbook pages
I think he stopped redrawing the flipbook pages in volume 7. Though I only have up to 8 so maybe he did started again in 9 & 10.
>>78200125
>>78212338
Damn. Snake-Eyes doesn't give a fuck.
>>78200614
>>78201963
>>78202592
>>78202577
>muh manga has gud fights
>DBZ, One Piece, OPM, Hiatus X Hiatus, Naruto and Fairy Gay will never be as good as Multiversity, Annihilation Wave or even tie ins like Convergence Shazam! or Futures End Swamp Thing
>>78204206
>>78204329
>>78204350
>>78204362
>>78204384
>>78204413
>>78204430
>>78204430
>>78204443
>>78204473
>>78204487
>>78206183
>>78207918
>>78208992 read this >>78215492
And I'm tired of you trying to bait everyone by saying americans don't know how to draw a fight. Really, if you think they don't them it's ok but fuck off and stop trying to bait ppl with your overrated manga shit and use more mangas you know there not only DBZ OPM and Bershitter out there.
>>78215577
Really nigga, you just try to compensate that your shitty manga is better because has better fights when most mangas have shitty stories. Like really bad but hell there are better fights even tough the plot is actually stupid and the characters are over the top clichés.
>>78200125
Generally, I'd agree. It's not their "fault". It's just the format, market and a slew of other factors.
I actually like the Spider-Man issues from the... 80s I think. Where he episodically just fought a bunch of his enemies. Those were issues devoted to the fight, so there was a flow to them.
Now, I don't really see that kinda choreography. It tends to be just a choice pose or a montage of snippets at best.
Certain manga are pretty good as far as fights go because their market allows them to devote entire issues on the fight.
Man, this thread has some surprisingly thought out discussion. I mean, sure, there's shitposting and baiting, but I dig some of the discussions here regarding art/choreography/etc.
>>78209636
>The story of berserk could be told in 50 chapters.
No it cant. Not if you try to keep the plot elements and character development in each arc.
