Sending untrained people into delicate and violent situations with minimal training, if training at all, is foolish and would only lead to massive human tragedy. Plot armor is the only reason this doesn't happen;superhero comics wouldn't sell as much if every issue was a Stanford disaster. Law enforcement requires massive MASSIVE training to handle, and even with all that it is still volatile as fuck, making the parties anonymous amateurs with massive destructive capabilities is something no civilized society would deal with. Tony was totally right in Civil War and he was portrayed as the protagonist, but a combination of shoddy writing, Cap' s mortality armor, and the aforementioned conflict with the super hero premise are the reasons it turned out like it did.
Even the prison made sense; comic prisons are cardboard because if they worked; all the good bad guys would be stuck in them for decades after a single crime. That isn't ripe for stories, so all prisons are revolving doors. A jail that can actually HOLD people is something well needed in Marvel, and the Gitmo aspects are irrelevant because everyone we saw there would have been legitimately detained anyway for the largest domestic vigilante instruction since the Klan.(But that wasn't the real Daredevil so I suppose they didn't have proper legal consul)
My point was Civil War and it's aftermath used super hero gebre fiction to paste over objectively legitimate issues within its universe; issues that were never adressed; it is the worst sort off self critique, the type that brings up issues with its set up but just skims them over with a wider villian (see:Korra, The Winter Soldier)
Ironically a rare exception to this was Star Wars; where the Republic and Jedi are shown many times to have lead to there fall from there own failings as systems.
The very idea was a conflict built on a false equivalence, it's like a civil war over Women's suffrage, something so obvious it must be malmade to justify itself.
Tony stark had no training
>>78134987
>blaming the heroes for a fucking NITRO mutie
Fuck off.
>>78135629
/thread
>>78135629
Nice thread you have there, OP. It would be a shame if someone ruined your entire thesis in the first reply.
the main problem with the 'Tony was right ' argument is that it completely overlooks how institutions actually worked in the MU and what was actually being proposed when every superhuman was asked to register
Tony partisans can't possibly say that it was a good idea to hand over secret identities and metahuman training to the actual, skrull-infested, Osborn-loving government. When they say 'yeah government should handle heroes' they're talking about an idealized version of government that works exclusively for the common good and prevents the failures of the 'unregistered vigilante ' model while possessing none of its own
>>78135629
OP BTFO
>>78134987
>Sending
>>78135629
>>78134987
it's the age-old problem
what do you do when people have guns?
do you try to take away the guns, ask them nicely not to use them, or make training and responsibility mandatory, locking up anyone irresponsible?
oh shit, the training is hard and takes a while? too fucking bad. do it anyway. same shit with cars really. we do need stronger standards, and we need more people using them on behalf of others who really shouldn't use them themselves.
>>78137435
which is why it's so completely out of character. nobody distrusts the gubmint more than tony
>>78135629
Fucking lethal post.
>>78135629
Fucking destroyed.
>>78134987
The empire wasn't even that evil in the first place. Sure, the emperor was an evil asshole, but the everyday guy didn't knew shit.
>>78137559
Also anyone with guns will now be a part of the military and be called upon any time the guy running the Gun Registration Service wants them to go into action.
Also this service will also include convicted criminals who've agreed to join in lieu of certain privileges. But don't worry they'll be kept in line via threat of immediate execution, the ones that aren't given total amnesty that is.
Also everyone signed into this service will have sensitive information placed in a database that will be frequently hacked by various nefarious organizations, that is if department itself doesn't become evil and has full access to all your information.
Also anyone refusing to register, despite being completely responsible during their entire career, will be shipped off to Guantanamo. No trial.
>>78135629
Oh shit
>law enforcement
>massive training
>mfw
i kind of agree with tony but then he sent a team of killers after spiderman and all bets were off
>>78138061
this
>>78134987
i think you're rigHt. You can't just let anyone run arounD with supeRpowers or super weApons.
>>78138438
I see what you did there
>>78138438
HAIL HDRA
>>78135629
damn OP
>>78136750 >>78136856 >>78137455 >>78137525 >>78137609 >>78137730 >>78138114 >>78149511
you spergs chill the fuck out, that's not a valid point. Politicians didn't have training either and niether did the civillians being slaughtered in conflicts by these leotard retards.
As an outsider you can observe these things, it's moreso compounded when you've been involved and DESPITE doingthis for years you see the inherent problems. Tony can also make his own army of death robots and take himself out of the equation.
>>78134987
how's the winter soldier do that? Seemed pretty straight as"yo shield has infiltrators" it was left in a pretty dire state after the movie, wasn't it?
>>78137885
The everyday guy didn't know anything except when the stormtroppers appeared to jail people for stupid things or forced people to celebrate the Empire's landmarks right?
>>78134987
>law enforcement
>massive training
Pick one.
By the way, the idea of superhero programs setting out to train newly-empowered superhumans is cool. The idea of forcing anyone that comes by a superpower into a military role is not.
>>78137885
>ethnic cleansing
>massive-scale enslavement
>planetary-wide killings
>institutionalized racism
The Empire was pretty evil mate.
Our military already trains foreign groups every now and then; you mean to tell me they couldn't provide training to young heroes without demanding that they become government assets and fork over their identities?
Keep in mind that people like Charles Xavier are already out there providing training and education.
>>78134987
You know who is right?Cyclops
checkmate fags
>>78150788
Wouldn't that end the same way? The government isn't going to train a super power in it's own borders that they don't have personal oversight on. Training forgien groups is one thing, but what if who you train turns disobediant in your own borders?
>>78150788
>Our military already trains foreign groups every now and then
Yeah and the consequences of arming and assisting them without constant monitoring and if necessary management don't just neatly tuck themselves away down the road.
>you mean to tell me they couldn't provide training to young heroes
Not knowing what they might go off an do without regulation?
I'm not for registration mind, I'm just making it clear that the idea of half-assing any of this (whether letting everyone just go unchecked, revoking freedoms to force them into a military or giving them partial resources but no supervision) realistically won't just sort itself out in post.
In fact everything ever addressed in fiction in a fictional way is guided by the writer, that is the only reason anything reliably works. We have no apt analogy for people being born with or receiving superpowers in our world so there is no reasonable way to approach it that doesn't rely on the individual making the suggestion either being ignorant or ignoring certain failings.
You can't really reliably criticize it just from the perspective of our world or there's an inherit bias stemming from views limited to our lifestyle.
can someone explain to me why civilians in the marvel universe hate mutants but love people like captain america?
>>78135629
And look, he became the greatest villain of the MCU
>>78137885
>The empire wasn't even that evil in the first place. Sure, the emperor was an evil asshole, but the everyday guy didn't knew shit.
give this deleted scene from A New Hope a watch, I can understand why they got rid of it but its a real shame since it expanded upon why the empire was facing a major uprising in the first place. I always assumed it was just the usual demands for greater autonomy, but no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f00IkrWvur4
start around 1:30
>>78151185
They sometimes love people like Captain America.
Every single Marvel hero's had shit public opinion at one time or another, even the usually beloved Fantastic Four.
Mutants have the absolutely worst PR, and all you have to do is read any given mutant book to read why, but everyone's had picket lines outside of their secret headquarters.
The reason this is, is that Marvel had the idea of superheroes who weren't beloved by the public as a way to stand out from DC. It worked, teenagers especially ate that shit up, and became an industry standard. In-universe, its the same reason any celebrity or authority figure gets turned on by the public.
>>78134987
>Law enforcement requires massive MASSIVE training
I can't agree with that. A plumber gets more training.
But yeah, the registration act was a good idea, train and coordinate those assets out there already, making their acts safer and more efficient.
But Cap did have a point about not trusting the cities with their identities.
Tony also fucked up. He went power mad, or mad scientist with some shit, he would incarcerate some pretty needlessly, I mean, at least make more than one facility, it always obvious that jails have different security ratings and needs depending on prisoners, as in, don't put low level offenders with psychos.
I mean...it was just stupidly written.
These people would fight murderous bad guys and put effort into not killing them in a fight unless it was necessary. This time, they fight each other and put no thought into it, even treat it as natural when it happens. Cap still had that vision. You don't treat civil disobedience like that.
Tony had a good point, but throwing your mic at the other guy in the debate makes you lose it automatically, that is sort of what he did.
>>78150816
This. He does both: trains new vigilantes and also lets them keep their anonymity up to a point. How is he always so right?
>>78151512
But all the people he trains wind up being shitty human beings.
Seriously, would YOU want to spend a week with any of the X-men? They're a bunch of insufferable cunts.
>>78151547
Yes I would.
>>78151547
I would spend a week in Berlin with Nightcrawler, but that's about it.
>>78151547
Does it have to be the O5?
Because I could probably hang out with Glob Herman for a week.
>>78151662
A week's a bit much.
>>78149561
>you spergs chill the fuck out, that's not a valid point. Politicians didn't have training either
>Politicians didn't have training either.
Like 60% of the problems with politics (minimum) are a result of people building legislation around tings they know nothing about, like that old fuck that gets to be in charge of how the bandwidth works and gave us that "the internet its a series of tubes" meme.
I trust a doctor to have medical training and a soldier to have combat training, so yeah, a politician that wants to speak on the realities of shit SHOULD have training in it.
Also, Tony isn't an outsider so your second point's fucked. He's just as much an insider as Cap was (Cap who by your own logic both got and gave training and still thought the legislation was a bad idea). Tony is a biased insider.
>>78151278
>Goldballs fights crime
>America's favorite dude!
>people find out he's mutant
>HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO US? >:(
>Cap kicked Rage of the team for being a kid pre-civil war
>Tony recruits Kamala, Sam and Miles post-civil war
Is there ever any consistency in their viewpoints?
>>78152008
Is that really inconsistent? Different people have different views?
>>78151483
>A plumber gets more training
Fucking this, any certified worker does, welder, electricians, plumbers,
Police academy is like what? six months top?
>>78151185
A strain of bacteria than can only infect non-mutant humans makes their hosts hate mutants.
>>78144354
wanna try again?
>>78151824
See this is why I liked how the DCU handled it. No one gave a shit if you had superpowers, they only cared what you did with them. It was practically EXPECTED that if you woke up one day with the ability to shoot lasers out of your butt or something, that you'd make yourself a costume and go out to fight crime.
Post-New 52, DC civilians kind of got a little more dickish to their heroes, and I chalk that up to the compressed timeline. With public superheroes and the Justice League having only been around for a much, much shorter time, they didn't have the same sort of trust and goodwill that the post-Crisis "New Earth" DCU had. That version of the DCU had superheroes around since around the 30's and the JSA and their contributions to the war effort contributed a lot to people's perceptions of heroes and people with superpowers.
>>78151185
A) You're an idiot that doesn't pay attention to comics but likes to complain about things you think are in them.
B) All of the publicly known mutants are self-entitled racial supremacist dicks.
>>78134987
You'd have a point if it weren't for one person: Cloud 9.
Really, the entirety of the Initiative pretty much shows every pitfall of the Registration Act, but it's better summed up in Cloud 9's arc.
>>78151164
>You can't really reliably criticize it just from the perspective of our world or there's an inherit bias stemming from views limited to our lifestyle.
Right there is the underlying problem with modern superhero comics, (and maybe like you noted, modern fiction in general). The confusion of 'realism' for the writer's degree of cynicism on the subject. Also the growing unwillingness or inability for writers to think outside of their own experiences and feelings and apply them to their works.
Putting the authority over a super human task force in the hands of the government is what's truly foolish
>>78152324
What I mean is, why would Cap fight against registration of any kind if he's so against super-kids using their powers unregulated, and why would Tony recruit a bunch of kids to fight for him after a bunch of kids fighting is exactly what made him go all "everyone must be regulated or locked up forever" in CW?
>>78149561
TWS brought up the idea of a Supervillian death note but then had HYDRA come on board to remove all moral grayness about it.
Aiming the weapon at "innocents" is a handy way to remove the question if it was needed at all.
>>78155823
>Aiming the weapon at "innocents" is a handy way to remove the question if it was needed at all.
Even before Hydra was a known element, Cap objected to project insight. His metaphor isn't really even metaphoric, it is literally holding a gun on every person saying "don't fuck up."
Also Project INSIGHT was part helicarrier, part future predicting algorithm. I've seen Minority Report, fuck that shit.
>>78155611
So cap must be for all registration, no matter what, just because he didn't want a kid on the team?
That is what you just said. Do you want to rethink that? Or would you like to continue living in your fantasy world wear everyone is flatter personality-wise than stationary?
>>78154943
>All of the publicly known mutants are self-entitled racial supremacist dicks
That is blatantly false, anon.
>>78151185
This is the canon reason:
>>78152656
>>78151220
Under-motherfucking-rated post here guys
You love more Tony than the truth
>>78158889
Let's see.
Just about all of the X-men are and subscribe to that homo superior bullshit.
X-affiliated organizations do too
Anyone associated with Magneto does.
Anyone related to Clan Akaba did.
Mystique is.
Any villains that aren't are still goddamn evil and thusly giving mutants a bad rep.
All we got left is Franklin, Whiz kid, Justice, (Maybe) Firestar, Santa ( if Wanda's spell didn't kill him), and Anole and Santo.
>>78159824
Give me panel where Storm talks how humans deserve to be gassed and I'll believe you.
>>78149561
So what you're saying is you want people that enforce the law to know what the fuck they're doing, but you don't want people that make the laws to know anything outside of their own asshole?
>>78159881
She's a horseman in the new movie trailer. Given how much Marvel LOVES movie synergy it's prettymuch automatic that we're going to see that exact panel within the next year.
>>78135629
This, also I don't listen to alcoholics.
>>78135629
>taught unarmed combat by Cap, Black Widow, and Black Panther
>expert in the creation, maintenance, and use of firearms and other weaponry from his days as a warmonger
>excelled at every school of science he was trained in during high school
>is one of the greatest tacticians on the planet
>all this despite not even being a real Stark
>untrained
Come on senpai
>>78161364
>high school
Wow way to pass Chem 101 there Stark.
>>78151185
If you ever read comics, even Cap comics, you would know that while Cap gets respect he also gets shit flung on him on a daily basis and Marvel civilians can be asshole who love you but turn on you in seconds.
>>78135629
rekt
>>78135629
WHERE YOU AT
WHERE YOU AT
WHERE YOU AT
>>78135629
Wombo combo
>>78137435
To be fair, the government didn't love Osborn - that was the new administration that brought him in, after Tony got to run things and dropped the ball on the Skrull invasion.
>>78138061
>Also anyone with guns will now be a part of the military and be called upon any time the guy running the Gun Registration Service wants them to go into action.
Yes, that's right there in the Second Amendment. The "well regulated militia" is made up of all gun-owning adult males in the country.
Fuck, I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or just trying to describe our actual reality.
>>78151185
Inhuman propaganda.
>>78134987
Glad to see you're on the right side OP, fuck Steve, Tony was absolutely right.
