I've heard a lot of people claim that the Ultimate Universe influenced the movies, but did it really?
The only important thing taken from Ultimate is Hawkeye having a family. Everything else is purely esthetic, such as Nick Fury being black and some costumes, or the Triskelion.
The things that matter in the movies, the personalties, the relationships, the stories, the backstories etc are either taken from the 616 comics or they just made up their own thing that isn't like Ultimate or 616. If the movies were based on Ultimate then everybody would be an asshole except for Thor, who'd be a hippie.
Joe Quesada and Bill Jemas intended the Ultimate Comics to be stories that would influence potential Marvel movies, but it failed to do so. In the end, now that the Ultimate Universe is gone, what actual impact has it had?
John Williams
>>78123035
SHIELD being behind The Avengers being formed
>>78123035
>The only important thing taken from Ultimate is Hawkeye having a family. Everything else is purely aesthetic, such as Nick Fury being black and some costumes, or the Triskelion.
People are still fucking mad about black Nick Fury. I'm more upset that the Shield comic by Jim Steranko have largely been untapped and ignored despite their excellence.
>Joe Quesada and Bill Jemas intended the Ultimate Comics to be stories that would influence potential Marvel movies, but it failed to do so. In the end, now that the Ultimate Universe is gone, what actual impact has it had?
Black Widow went from being an esoteric, largely ignored character, to being a well known, largely ignored character.
>what actual impact has it had?
Successfully ride on The Authority wave with Marvel characters ending up with the trend influencing the main continuity in the form of Civil War.
>>78123035
>Nick Fury being black
nick fury being Samuel L fucking Jackson
The Shield emphasis is pure Ultimate.
The Ultimate stuff also bled in a bit to 616 stuff. The Movies aren't anything like Pre-Ultimate Classic Avengers to be honest.
>>78123345
Classic Avengers means what comics exactly?
>>78123035
>but did it really?
Yes. Even asking this means you haven't read Ultimate Spider-Man or The Ultimates and watched capeshit Spider-Man - Avengers.
The Ultimates was the first comic to treat the Avengers as a modern paramilitary force that kinda works for SHIELD. Compare the Ultimates to Avengers v3. Then compare the mid-Bendis-era Avengers (and Fraction Iron Man, Brubaker Cap, etc) to the Ultimates. Then compare all of that to the current Marvel movieverse. Keep note of when these stories were published.
You have to be blind to not see it.
I think that's a little short-sighted. There's a lot more about the films that is taken from Ultimate, though it's still probably 70/30 taken from 616.
SHIELD as an organization, and the Avengers being brought together by them, is much more like their Ultimate origins than 616. Hawkeye as a character is Ultimate Hawkeye with some little bit of his 616 personality. Ronan working for Thanos is from Ultimate. Hulk's origin is closer to Ultimate. Steve being childhood friends with Bucky is from Ultimate.
I'm sure there's more, but that's just the stuff I remember. There's also a lot of the aesthetics like you mentioned, such as costumes and whatnot.
>>78123392
Busiek or earlier. Even with Johns you could start to see the hints of what was to come.
>>78123035
>but did it really?
Yes.
Influence =/= Unabridged copy of.
>>78123284
>Black Widow went from being an esoteric, largely ignored character, to being a well known, largely ignored character.
That wasn't thanks to Ultimate at all. In Ultimate Black Widow was a traitor all along
>Black Fury
>Triskelion
>Cap's costume
>Hawkeye's costume
>Shield in general
Hell even that BP Vs Cap promo image was taken straight from an Ultimate Captain America annual cover
>>78123511
The Avengers being an organized military unit working closely with SHIELD instead of a bunch of corny costumed goofs living out of a mansion in Central Park. Classic Avengers were corny as fuck. First Avengers book I ever liked was Red Zone. Bendis made them interesting. I know this is an unpopular opinion on /co/.
>>78123035
Yes, hugely. It was largely an aesthetic influence, I don't understand why you're brushing that off. Aesthetic is a pretty enormous part of a visual medium.
>>78123035
The movies are the Ultimate universe injected with more family-friendly elements from 616.
So the movie Avengers have the basic look of the Ultimates, but they're all much nicer than their Ultimate counterparts.
>>78123577
>That wasn't thanks to Ultimate at all. In Ultimate Black Widow was a traitor all along
I might not have my point clear, Widow was elevated to being a founding Avenger in the Ultimate Universe, which led to her being an original Avenger in the MCU.
Unfortunately, Widow was given her 616 characterization and backstory, but with ultimate Black Widow's role, which is what has lead to her being unfocused.
>>78123345
I think the SHIELD emphasis was something hapening in the comics even before Ultimate, it hapened in 616 comics too. Besides, it's only logical to use it in the movies since it helped tie the films together
>>78123613
which cover?
>>78124014
Sure it's logical, which is why they used it. They've adapted parts of Ultimate and parts of 616 where they make the most sense.
Neither of the three universes are copies of one another, they're more like a closely overlapping Venn diagram.
>>78123511
>Hulk's origin is closer to Ultimate.
It's actually closer to the 1970s TV series
>>78124456
which also inspired Ultimate
point is, they (try to) adapt different elements of different versions of their characters where it fits best on film. People are most familiar with the classic incarnations so that gets used the most, but a lot of that stuff is dated and hasn't aged well whereas ultimate has more modern elements and reinvents the classics, but it also has some bad ideas and some drastic departures. Then sometimes they just make shit up.
But the OP said Ultimate was pretty much irrelevant, I'm just explaining how that's not really true
>>78123035
SHIELD's omnipresence
Cap being literally super powerful
Thor's beard
Sam Jackson
The shrinking sex scene in Ant Man
Hulk being an attempt at a super soldier
>>78123035
>then everybody would be an asshole except for Thor, who'd be a hippie.
Why was eveyone in Ultimate an asshole? Did they think it was "realistic"?
>>78124920
>The shrinking sex scene in Ant Man
What
>>78125448
That was 616, though. Geoff Johns.
>>78125472
I never got that.
Is she going to crawl around in her ass?
>>78124014
Secret War came out in 2004-2005, after Ultimates turned Nick Fury into keikaku overlord.
>>78125408
>Why was eveyone in Ultimate an asshole? Did they think it was "realistic"?
Mark Millar defaults to making everyone a jerk.
One of his favorite tricks is to have characters ask rhetorical questions as they reveal they planned ahead for some kind of twist.
>>78124920
Thor had a beard in the 80's.
>>78125495
>Is she going to crawl around in her ass?
This cover is referenced almost exactly in a shot in Avengers.
>>78123631
>Bendis made them interesting. I know this is an unpopular opinion on /co/.
As well it should be, because that's a load of humbug. But Bendisposting usually makes it sound like Bendis made the moon and the stars in the sky, so it's nothing new.
>>78125535
Millar cliches
>cold open with character doing something crazy, then it turns out it's a simulation or something stupid
>character who has been beat up before by another shows his true power and utterly rekts the other
>pith one liner
>pithy one liner, then lampshaded
>anal rape
>reality warper flashback to a horrible rape/hidden trauma
>something explodes in a two page spread
>>78123631
>The Avengers being an organized military unit working closely with SHIELD instead of a bunch of corny costumed goofs living out of a mansion in Central Park. Classic Avengers were corny as fuck. First Avengers book I ever liked was Red Zone. Bendis made them interesting. I know this is an unpopular opinion on /co/.
Bendis blew up the Avengers and then made his own OC team of c-listers because he didn't want to follow existing canon.
How is that making the Avengers stronger?
>>78125584
I fucking love the Original Ultimate Ironman suit. I even liked the stupid designer baby Tony.
>>78123631
Bendis didn't write Red Zone and you have really shitty taste
>>78125671
>Bendis blew up the Avengers and then made his own OC team of c-listers because he didn't want to follow existing canon.
The Avengers have always reinvented their lineup, bringing in villains like Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch, etc.
>How is that making the Avengers stronger?
Spider-Man and Wolverine made the team diamonds. Bendis adding Luke Cage and Spider-Woman was his freedom.
>>78125535
yes, that is why one of his most famous works is a kind and loving all-age Superman story and an upbeat Captain Marvel pastiche.
>>78125671
C-listers is going back to basics, because that was the whole idea under Lee's editorial.
>>78125789
>Spider-Man and Wolverine made the team diamonds. Bendis adding Luke Cage and Spider-Woman was his freedom.
Wolverine was supposed to be a loner and secret agent, not someone the Avengers would have.
Luke Cage is street level urban justice and Spider Woman was created to maintain copyrights. She was also supposed to be a super spy/test tube super soldier.
There are plenty of Avengers candidates, but if everyone and their dog is on tthe team, it makes no sense.
>>78125860
Busiek had everyone and their dog on the team.
>>78125801
>yes, that is why one of his most famous works is a kind and loving all-age Superman story and an upbeat Captain Marvel pastiche.
Yes, and the exception prove the rule.
Millar can write Marvel 1985, a loving tribute to the classic marvel comics, while also revealing the villain from it goes on to slaughter trillions in his Fantastic Four run.
>>78125860
>Wolverine was supposed to be a loner and secret agent, not someone the Avengers would have.
And Hulk is a loner and Thor is a god. The Avengers can have anyone.
>Luke Cage is street level urban justice and Spider Woman was created to maintain copyrights. She was also supposed to be a super spy/test tube super soldier.
And Iron Man fought communists and Ant-Man & the Wasp mostly fought bank robbers in New Jersey.
There's no rule about who can be in the Avengers and there hasn't been in a long while. You can't undo Bendis writing New Avengers for a decade.
>>78123035
This is why when a friend interested in Marvel thanks to the movies asked me what to read, I told him not to read Ultimate other than Spider-Man. They just don't get the characters, they turn them into unlikeable assholes that barely resemble the versions people actually like
The Ultimate Universe was incredibly important not for the stories it shares nor because of the changes it has between its mainline counterpart
Ultimate Universe was groundbreaking as it was the real first modern day comic. I say that, as it got the greatest writers, artists, etc. of their time, the real prime of their talent, and told them to go nuts. They worked outside of the boundaries of regular continuity and had no rules or restrictions placed on their work outside of being creative and having fun
I would argue that the first volume of Ultimates is Mark Millar's finest work. He masterfully crafts something new out of something old while truly using the artistic advantages of this new universe to bring about an easier to understand continuity that feels self-contained and yet still grand in its own right. Greatest example being the UU's incarnations of Hank Pym and Wasp and how multiple seemingly unrelated elements such as Super Soldiers and Mutants were weaved together to create something new entirely
Of course, at some point it got too big. The original premise was thrown out the window and it soon was treated like any other Marvel book. No longer could somebody write a single arc about Ultimate Daredevil and nothing more, now there HAD to be a consistent amount of books coming out. No longer were the writers praised but rather the works that they wrote
It influenced the rest of comics as being the first major inter-connected passion project from dozens of creative individuals. The closest thing we've had since was DC's Earth one, but ironically those are pretty much the exact opposite tonally as those books use their writers the same way you would use a billboard
>>78126706
That's a nice cover, for ants.
>>78126706
Nope.
All you have put down is true for WildStorm.
>>78123035
I have a feeling that MCU Spider-Man will borrow heavily from Ultimate Spider-Man
>>78126945
Completely true.
But, and I don't approve of or condone this, there's an attitude that until something is done by Marvel or DC (at least, "proper" DC, rather than their imprints, like Vertigo or WS) it "doesn't count". Like, people don't notice things until they go full mainstream. Not even relatively mainstream like Wildstorm but the mainstream of the mainstream, like a Superman or X-men tier.
Infuriating, but it's true.
>>78123035
Wasn't SHIELD a UN organisation before Ultimate?
Seems very USA USA USA now
>>78127063
The important part is that it WAS done by a big company, though. Wildstorm wasn't the first of its kind. It was just the first successful attempt. Remember Valiant in the 90's? or any of the million other failed comic companies that either went bankrupt or were bought by DC and Marvel?
Oh wait, that's Wildstorm
>>78126706
>Ultimate Universe was groundbreaking as it was the real first modern day comic.
Somebody wrote this, and it was not a copypaste.
>>78127188
It's never been clear. It's why the Pentagon wouldn't finance the Avengers movie, since they asked Marvel who ran SHIELD and not even they knew
>>78125913
>Millar can write Marvel 1985, a loving tribute to the classic marvel comics, while also revealing the villain from it goes on to slaughter trillions in his Fantastic Four run.
I enjoyed that contrast. Sometimes I miss Millar at Marvel.
>>78125472
Yes, but what does that have to do with the MCU?
>>78125535
>jerk
The only one who wasn't a villain that was a jerk were Bruce and hank
>>78123035
Fuck off casual. They very obviously took Tony's personality from ultimate.
They took the team's relation to Shield, they took Hawkeye's personality and backstory and relation to Shield. They made Cap a Shield officer immediately.
Don't pretend you read comics moviefag
This one's easy.
Look at Millar and Hitch's Ultimates.
Then look at Busiek's Avengers which come out at the same time (Dwyer and Perez are the artists I recall).
Now tell me, honestly, which one more closely resembles the Avengers and MCU in general.
>>78127656
>they took Hawkeye's personality
fuck off
>>78127646
Fury was an epic narcissist, Tony was about the norm for Tony, Steve Rogers fought dirty and relished in it.
>>78127810
>Steve Rogers fought dirty and relished in it.
One was a piece of shit who murdered new york for an ego trip, the other was a literal NAZI ALIEN
I'd relish in it too
>>78123613
Which wad a homage to a Cap vs Wolverine annual story.
>>78127738
They did though casual.
>okay with being a Shield agent
>doesn't talk shit to his enemies
>generally somber and quiet instead of outspoken
Definitely closer to ultimate than 616
>>78128337
>generally somber and quiet instead of outspoken
He knew how to have a good time too
>>78125801
>yes, that is why one of his most famous works is a kind and loving all-age Superman story and an upbeat Captain Marvel pastiche.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I thought I was pretty knowledgable about his work, but I'm drawing a complete blank. Please enlighten me.
>>78128449
i think he means superior
>>78125860
>Wolverine was supposed to be a loner and secret agent
He's an x-man? He's a team character. Always was.
>>78125801
>C-listers is going back to basics, because that was the whole idea under Lee's editorial.
Yeah which is why Wolverine and Spidey being there make no sense, hell Lee didn’t want Spidey there, the Avengers were never the Justice League.
>>78125671
I liked the corny Avengers and I liked the rotating chairman thing too because everyone had their shot at the leadership position.
Now it's just Cap/Iron Man is the leader or the other team members being disrespecrful to whoever is leading because they are sooo coooool.
>>78128581
>or the other team members being disrespecrful to whoever is leading
That's always been the case. People like Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Hercules always complained about whoever was in charge and acted like loose cannons
>>78126031
>You can't undo Bendis writing New Avengers for a decade.
Not anytime soon but eventually some buttmad fan will make writer status and do it and Bendis would be a jas been oldfart like Byrne.
He doesn't have the charisma of Stan lee to be kept in people's minds, hell outside of comic nerds no one knows who Bendis is.
>>78128653
Yeah but they were always put in their place ir the narrative treated it as something that wan't OK, that the group was in dissaray.
Now you can havr Carol or whoever diss the team leaders and fo whatever she wants and it's ok because she is freaking Captain Marvel.
>>78127528
Funny is that a flair up of his Chron's disease almost killed him, and put Ultimates on delay for months.
After he recovered, he went full force with Millarworld and his personal projects. So it was a brush with death that put Millar off from Marvel.
>>78128665
>hell outside of comic nerds no one knows who Bendis is.
Outside of comic nerds no one knows who comic writers are.
Maybe JMS for Babylon 5, but that's just scifi nerds.
>>78129697
The only comic writers you can expect general audiences to be aware of are Stan Lee and to a lesser extent Alan Moore and Frank Miller
>>78129670
>So it was a brush with death that put Millar off from Marvel.
It might've been but it was also a talk with Stan Lee that made Millar realize he should go make his own stuff.
http://www.businessinsider.com/mark-millar-got-advice-from-stan-lee-2015-2
>Millarworld came from a feature in SFX magazine where you would interview the person who did your job 10 years before. I interviewed Stan Lee: my hero, before I even called him up on the phone I hesitated for about 10 minutes, and that is so unlike me. I never get nervous about anything, but with Stan Lee, it was like phoning God. I recorded the interview and played it back three times because it was me, having a chat with Stan!
>He gave me the best advice ever. I was feeling pretty pleased with myself, this was about 11 years ago or so and I had four books in the top five at the time but they were all Marvel books. He said to me, “That’s great, but you should do your own characters instead of doing mine. I didn’t do Superman and Batman and Tarzan and Sherlock Holmes, I went off and did the X-Men.”
>It was like a lightbulb going on. I just thought, “Oh my God, you’re right.” He said, “Financially now it’s so much better for you guys than it ever was for me. You could own the rights to your own movies and books. You could licence this stuff to people, like toys. If I had the opportunity you’ve had, I’d have killed for it.” I put down the phone and started working on my own stuff. I’d been at Marvel for a few years and I did both side by side, and then once the movies started coming out I was making more from my own company than I was from Marvel.
>>78130203
>That’s great, but you should do your own characters instead of doing mine.
Stan the man telling it like it is.
>>78124920
cap is superstrong in the main universe as well, and has been for years
>>78130895
At some point around 1969 or 1970 Lee was pretty tempted to get out of the comics industry because Martin Goodman was no longer running Marvel and Lee wanted to do more than just comics and was getting frustrated at not owning his creations. He also felt that if he had gotten into movies he would try to take Jack Kirby and John Buscema along because he felt Kirby would be great at set design and felt both are great at storyboards.
>>78131014
Not to the point where he could bend steel bars though.
>>78131092
>he would try to take Jack Kirby and John Buscema along because he felt Kirby would be great at set design and felt both are great at storyboards.
Funny thing is he was absolutely right. Kirby did end up getting involved in Hollywood and designs.
One of those movies was Argo, which you may remember as the one that helped save American diplomats in during the Iran hostage crisis. Jack Kirby even made a cameo in the Ben Affleck movie.
>>78123035
Hawkeye's having a family is what connects him to Wanda (who is based on Shooter with elements of Abnet and Busiek) in the MCU. Its from the Ultimates but Whedon re-purposed it to re-imagine the classic Hawkeye/Scarlet Witch bond.
Captain America is thankfully not based on Ultimates at all, and thank fuck MCU Wasp isn't.
>>78132055
>Captain America is thankfully not based on Ultimates at all
>His suit
>His fucking strength
>Not based on Ultimates
Kek
Falcon's suit is clearly based on the Ultimate version
>>78132128
He means character and personality-wise, the things that actually matter
>>78126706
My nigga, you even used the correct image.
Just because the Ultimate Universe isn't EXACTLY like the movies doesn't mean it wasn't a huge influence on them. In fact the Ultimates greatly influenced the MAIN comics first. Some things like the original Thor and everyone being assholes was a bit too far from the original concept to make it to the movies but the whole tacticool aesthetic and the way powers are presented was largely inspired by the Ultimates.
>>78123284
>>78123343
What really blows is the fact that they actually cast Jackson for it, despite him being too old to do anything fucking cool. I remember how people were excited for the "badass" moment in in Avengers where he just stands there and fires a guided missile, and then impotently fires his little pistol at a goddamn jet.
He at least did a little bit in Winter Soldier but the MCU has totally bungled Fury as a character. Without the soldier background and the super spy years the only thing left about him is his duplicitousness.
