Why do people say the shrinking power doesn't make sense in this movie?
Because the rules of the power aren't consistent.
In the movie, it's stated that the Pym particles can shrink a person down to the size of an atom. However, near the end, Ant-Man shrinks even smaller than that after deactivating the suit's regulator. That's why
>>78113142
>In the movie, it's stated that the Pym particles can shrink a person down to the size of an atom.
No it isn't and even still that doesn't mean you can't shrink smaller.
I think it's mainly the way they play fast and loose with how his mass and density change when he shrinks.
>Subatomic
>Sub = smaller than
>Smaller than atomic
>>78113388
The only inconsistencies are between what you see happen and the simplified explanation for audiences.
None of the action actually contradicts any other action scene.
>>78113340
Yeah, this essentially. The mass and density rules bend and shift for the sake of the plot.
>>78113093
They're pretty consistent. I know a lot of people will toss out the mass thing, but in the movie not once does anything shrunken retain it's mass.
They're Pym particles, they ain't got no rules.
>>78113500
Thats because you're assuming pym particles work like normal physics. They didn't go deeply into it but Hope told us you're still plenty strong when tiny.
>>78113559
They actually do.
>>78113559
This. They're mistake was trying to put too much science into pym particles.
That's like trying to explain speedforce. It's called "speedforce" for the very reason of not having to fucking explain it.
>>78113530
Boy, are you wrong.
They explicitly state that Lang will retain his mass, which is why he has to learn how to punch, because he's "like a bullet". He also cracks the bathroom tile when he lands on it, meaning he's fairly heavy, and leaves a dent in the car roof when he lands on it. There's also all the punching he does.
>>78112709
>Body doesn't explode from Oxygen molecules
>>78112709
It makes sense... Here is the solution
Pym Particle has 3 axis
1. Size
2. Strength
3. Durability.
Changing these 3 you can see different results.
Antman for weight and Size changes.
Wonderman for just being with high strength.
Vision Phasing through the matter.
Think about these 3 axes and you won't find it much inconsistent.
>>78113142
>they can shrink a person down to the size of an atom
And? He shrinks down to a size of an atom, and then goes even smaller. At no point do they say he can't go smaller than an atom. Shit, that's the whole subplot about whatshername.
>>78113608
Also this.
Side note:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgHpCgVhtMg
Can anyone gif the scene when they're dancing and throwing money and cap it to say "Meanwhile at Marvel"
>everything becomes lighter when shrunk
>only things inside the special suits maintain their momentum (not mass)
wasn't that hard
>>78113902
If only Ward had Pym Particles right ;)
>>78113142
>>78113180
>>78113340
>>78113475
>>78113500
>>78113530
>>78113608
>>78113651
>>78113658
The issue is they state in the movie that pym particles work by reducing the space between atoms, and then they proceed to go sub-atomic, which shouldn't be possible if pym particles work how they say they do.
>>78113958
The answer is Pym Particles
>>78113958
it's canon that Lang knows Pym Particles better than Pym.
>>78113575
When you get smaller you weigh the same as evidenced by the tiles cracking under Scott when he first shrinks.
Pym is somehow strong enough to carry a shrunken TANK around as a keyring.
>>78113616
They explicitly state it then the tank explicitly weighs much less.
>>78114073
suit must work differently than normal shrunken objects, and I'm okay with that
ANTS
>>78114117
ANTS!
>>78114073
They explicitly state that objects retain their mass when an object doesn't retain its mass? Are you retarded?
>>78114142
ANT-MAN!
>>78113643
Obviously the suit shrinks them too.
>>78114094
I was okay with it too cause PYM PARTICLES, SON but I can see why some would get nerd triggered.
>>78114150
I'm saying its a contradiction. I don't even really care that it happened. Same as I didn't care about Flash's magnet bomb scenario this week.
Pym Particles obviously do some mass and density shifting shit that they'll mention in the sequel to explain the inconsistencies of the first.
>>78114117
>>78114142
>>78114180
You think Ant-Man And The Wasp will have a similar commercial but with Hope there too?
>ANTS
>WASPS
>ANTS
>WASPS
etc
>>78113902
OP here, this anon gets it
>>78113616
>>78113958
The movie makes more sense if you ignore what they SAY they do and look at what they do in practice.
In the movie, shrunken things lose mass but keep their durability/strength, and the size of the shrunken person's atoms are, in fact, reduced.
>>78112709
THE TANK
I mean are we just going to ignore that something like pym particles existing would require an entire re-examination about how we expect physics to work?
Of course it doesn't fit into our understanding. What energy is Tony's repulsors made of and why does it seemingly have kinetic energy?
>>78115936
How does Cap's shield absorb kinetic energy but also bounce off of objects?
None of this makes any sense, it doesn't have too.
>>78115936
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster
>>78115918
>cross picks up a lamb just fine
>tank is light when small
>key chain is heavy when large
>hope only mentions scott keeping his strength when small
there's nothing wrong with the tank
>>78115936
>I mean are we just going to ignore that something like pym particles existing would require an entire re-examination about how we expect physics to work?
>>78115962
Cap's shield is the biggest offender of all.
Closest working explanation I've seen is that all force gets redistributed to the edges. That's why bullets fall flat when they hit it, but it can still bounce off walls, and why Mjolnir hitting it created a shockwave spreading outward from the rim.
>>78115962
hit the big surface and it absorbs kinetic energy
hit the edge of the round aspect and it bounces that kinetic energy around the curve, making it bounce better than something of a similar weight and shape
still it's a shallow dome so neither effect is perfect, peggy hits the shield dead center and the bullets drop but when reflecting mini gun fire in TWS bullets hit closer to the edge and bounce off
just like how the shield stop's Thor's swing in Avengers but can also direct whatever shock wave that was in a specific direction like in Avengers 2
>>78113958
There's no reason to reply to all those posts you attention whore
1989 Peggy was hot
>reduces size by decreasing the space between atoms
>can somehow shrink user to a sub-atomic size
>shrunk objects have less mass (the tank in pym's pocket)
>>78113616
and yet he flies on a regular sized ant. are you telling us that ant is carrying a 150 pound man?
movie had about the softest, fuzziest science I've ever seen in movie. Was kinda distracting at some points.
>>78117294
>>shrunk objects have less mass (the tank in pym's pocket)
yes, that is how the magical shrinking particles work
>>78117587
I too have only seen 3 movies in my entire life.
>>78117882
name 2 other movies that tried to give an explanation for their science then proceded to ignore it and contradict it in every other scene.
>>78117966
Back to the Future
Terminator
Star Wars
>>78117966
The Matrix
Abrahams' Star Treks
Terminator Salvation
>>78113475
>the only inconsistency is between what happens and what should be happening
So, bad writing.
>>78113658
>At no point do they say he can't go smaller than an atom
No but it's fucking common understanding that when you say you're not changing the size of your atoms then you cannot actually go smaller than your own atoms.
>>78118002
>Star Wars
>explaining their science
Ignoring the prequels, mind.
>>78116011
>>cross picks up a lamb just fine
>>tank is light when small
>>key chain is heavy when large
>>hope only mentions scott keeping his strength when small
>there's nothing wrong with the tank
Scott is shown to be heavy when small
>>78118508
Dense, actually. Weight and Mass are not the same thing.
The problem with the tank that everyone keeps harping is that if Scott/Hank hit with all the force of their punches (force=Mass x acceleration) in a much smaller area, then why is the much larger mass of a tank not breaking everything when, for example, Hank drops it into the bowl to pass through the metal detector vs. when Scott drops to the bathroom tile and cracks it.
>>78118508
but that's the force of the impact, him being like a bullet, do subsequent tiles break as he walks around?
>>78118457
>the only inconsistency is between what happens and what **the characters said** should be happening
Pretty big difference there.
>>78112709
their wishy-washy explanation was worse then had they not explained. By trying to make it sound plausible, it highlighted how ridiculous it all is. A problem with their physics is that they said he could hit with the same force of his full sizes self when he is shrunk, but the force is concentrated on a fraction of a millimetre squared. If that were true, every time he punched someone, they wouldn't go flying back, his fist would pierce theie body.
>>78116011
Hank says he learned how to shrink the distance between atoms which would create denser molecules. Mass would be conserved.
Ant-Man was the best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oePNduINXdI
they act like its a big deal that they decrease space between atoms while also increasing density. As if decreasing volume wouldn't increase density in the first place.
>>78112709
>scott breaks a tile when he lands on it
>falls an even greater distance and doesn't smash through the record player and table
>pym talks about how the particles keep the weight of the shrunken object/person by condensing their atoms so that scott can punch people when he's tiny
>pym carries a tank
>thomas engine blown up is shown to be as heavy as a giant wooden train would be
This is a movie that uses science but also requires you to turn your brain off.
>>78113608
Scott is an electrical engineer; how the hell can he figure the out while Pym and Foster didn't? They know quantum mechanics.
>>78120742
Pym and Foster are held back because they spend years learning widely accepted but incorrect quantum mechanical theories. They'd find something new and try to figure out how it fits within their existing model.
Scott had no such preconceptions, so had an easier time seeing things for what they are and realizing potential applications
>>78115827
I'd laugh.
>>78117671
That's not how fiction works.
>>78120660
I don't know why they didn't just go with >>78113608
and state that pym particles can alter density independently of size by increasing or reducing mass on the fly
>>78119699
>By trying to make it sound plausible, it highlighted how ridiculous it all is
Earnestness is very attractive in superhero stories.
Pym particles might as well be named Handwavium. It doesn't matter.
>>78120807
Fucking Honest Trailers. Now I'm imagining she gets recast as Don Cheadle.
I'll explain it again, and will post the math when I have it finished.
the key to the whole thing is it's Pym ParticleS, there are multiple ones, kinda like we have multiple leptons and bosons. These particles interact via the Pym force and negatively with the gravitational force (only less so). They bond with both the nucleus and the electrons and when shrinking they increase the mass of the electron. This decreases the orbital of the electron, thus decreasing the space between atom as well (as molecules are held together via the electric charge); this is like how if you replace an electron with a muon, something about 200x as massive, you end up with an orbital about that order of magnitude smaller (using a hydrogen atom for simplicity). But since electrons are so light compared to the nucleus, nearly ALL the weight of an atom is in it's nucleus, replacing an electron with muon only increases the mass of the entire atom by 10%.
Now, the other problem people wonder is how he can ride an ant. Well, when the Pym particles are activated they cause interference with the gravitational force, decreasing the weight of the person/object.
Last, going quantum/microverse. The act of shrinking something with the Pym particles has a side effect, it increases the Uncertainty Principle in proportion to the speed of the shrinking. Shrinking Speed * H-Bar/2 to throw a number out, I may have to modify that when I complete my final draft. You can never be more precise than this value, but in this case it causes a quantum tunnelling effect and you never cross that threshold, Instead, you end up on the other side, the microverse.
Clear as mud?
>>78120861
- capefaggot on storytelling
Why do people even bother questioning Pym Particles?
>>78118508
read the thread, the suit conserves momentum of shrunken's object as if they were full sized
like I've said, the rules are consistent and it's just the audience 2 second explanation that over simplified (gee I wonder why?)
>>78113142
Physicis PhD candidate here - atoms are not solid, rigid bodies. In the same way that most physical objects are mostly empty space, most atoms are also mostly empty space, with regions where the electrons, quarks, etc that comprise the atom are most probable to appear at any given moment.
The Bohr radius, what we would consider the size of a Hydrogen atom (specifically the mean distance between a bound electron and proton) is about 50 pm (10^-12 meters)
The charge radius of an atomic nucleus (the 'sphere of charge' we can model a collection of protons and neutrons as) is on the order of about 1 fm (10^-15 meters)
The upper limit on the physical size that could describe the individual quarks and electrons composing the atom are on the scale of about 1 am (10^-18 meters)
One could hypothesize that Pym Particles allow not only the spacing between atoms, but the spacing between subatomic particles within an atom to be reduced. These atoms would be highly unstable (we could further hypothesize that the Pym Particles have the effect of stabilizing these modified atoms) and their reduced scale could lead to unexpected interactions with the Higgs Field, reducing the effective mass of the particles while allowing them to maintain their previous momentum.
... or you could just accept that it's a comic book movie and it doesn't need to be fucking consistent with the laws of physics.
>>78122017
Speed Force levels of "Don't fucking worry"
>>78122366
>unexpected interactions with the Higgs Field
Um, you know most of the mass in the nucleus is NOT from quarks interacting with Higgs field? Most of the mass of atoms is through the interaction of massless gluons, which translates to mass via E=mc^2. You are a PhD candidate so I'm guessing you just didn't care about the hypothesis you threw out.
>>78117534
It's actually a giant ant shrunken down.
Where did they find a giant ant, you ask? They grabbed a small one and turned it big, of course!
>>78122508
I want to argue with that, but I really can't.
>>78122462
1) No, I really didn't care.
2) I'm a plasma physicist, a thorough understanding of QCD isn't required.
>>78122547
You can't ever argue with science.
>>78122560
You did give me an idea to add to >>78121679
though. By decreasing the energy of the gluons you bring them closer together, shrinking the nucleus. So you can decrease size and mass with the same mechanism
>>78122366
>One could hypothesize
You lose when it's fanfic.
>>78121875
>- capefaggot on storytelling
There's nothing to be won by arguing about inconsistencies in superheroes.
Pym particles are magic. They are only limited by plot. If I were a writer I could snap my fingers and say they work from unicorn blood.
The key is to have fun and enjoy the story.
Originally established nature was that shrunken object would retain mass of the original. This seems to match his fight with the Falcon, where he punches him with strength of a human-sized man. I mean, if an ant punch you, you will barely notice.
However, nowhere else mass does conserve. For example, shrunken tank can be carried by a single person while expanded ant does not float away like a balloon.
>>78122366
You are the most reasonable person on the internet.
