Who do you think are the best writers of all time based ONLY on their non-cape work? And I think it's safe to include Vertigo type things like Sandman and Lucifer as non-cape.
For me, it's Gaiman. No matter what I've read, it just doesn't come close to my first read through of Sandman (and he obviously has other solid works as well).
Does Sandman get better as it goes on? I read the first few issues and got kind of bored and never understood why it got so much praise.
I'm going to say Michael Kirkbride and you can suck my cock.
>>78112497
I would recommend it. If you're really just not enjoying it I'm going to call you a faggot and you should feel bad, but it doesn't click with everybody.
>>78112497
Once Death shows up it gets way better and then doesn't stop getting better.
>>78112497
The first book is tonally and thematically weird, and structured completely differently compared to the rest of the series. Keep going.
Ed Brubaker.
>>78112497
I'd say if you don't like the first two arcs, it's probably not for you. Though I don't think either of them are the best of the series, it should give you a good feeling for the series. I think the tone and angle of the storytelling changes after the first arc a little to less horror and more straight fantasy.
Sandman is good, hell, it's great. But I definitively wouldn't say it's the best or even top 10 material, Sandman just has this imbued mass market appeal, because Neil Gailman has teenage girl sensibilities and interests, his surface level schmoozing on abstract concepts and religions speaks right to proto-Tumblr NiN guys and Morrisette girls and if it lost some of it's appeal on repeated readings for you, like it did for me, it's probably because you grew up, got exposed to better works and moved on from the 90s alternative aesthetic zeitgeist.
>>78112979
Or maybe people really enjoyed the interesting world he built around some fun characters...
>>78112868
>it should give you a good feeling for the series
I dunno, I found the first couple of books quite different from the rest.
Might not be as intellectual as some other 'GOAT' contenders, but I really love Hellboy and Mignola's universe.
>>78113260
Yeah I suppose. There's 10, right? I'd say definitely by the end of Season of Mists, it had completely gotten into it's stride. But I still feel like if you weren't into by then, there's only a slim chance you'll change your mind at that point.
>>78112979
Not that this >>78113038 isn't also true, but...
I've never read Sandman, and everyone I know that likes Neil Gaiman also really likes Doctor Who and Florence and the Machine...so...the "teenage girl sensibilities" thing kind of rings true to me.
>>78112249
>Sandman
>has capes in it
>non-cape
>>78113339
I'm >>78112979 and I have even read a lot of Sandman and other Gaiman works, of course "teenage girl sensibilities" is a bit disparaging, but I don't mean to completely diminish his work, hell, I still have some of those sensibilities and I still love the Sandman, it's just not GOAT material, it's not particularly deep, it doesn't have extraordinary world or character building, >>78113271 I'd honestly put Mignola and the Hellboy universe above it. It just seems that some of the stuff Gaiman loves, like pop alternative acts, well known, if not correctly interpreted or particularly insightful, religious references and the like, "meta" love for poetry and cheesy dramatic romance, it's the same kind of thing that pulls girls in to series like Hannibal for example.
>>78113357
Does that mean Hellblazer is a Cape comic because John was part of infinite crisis in Swamp thing, Zatanna shows up to his 40th birthday party (the same party John pissed on Phantom stranger's shoes) and John's band mentions Superman in a song of theirs?
Not to mention the time he p
>>78113466
Based Candlejack does it aga
>>78112979
I feel like the people that only see these kind of 90s pop sensibilities things in it (both those that are fans in the way and people like you who only think people like it because of that) miss a lot of what makes Sandman special.
For a big fan of comic history, and just fiction history in general, Sandman is fucking packed to the brim with references. Like the whole Cain/Abel/Eve/Destiny thing being a continuation/homage of old DC anthology books. Or that one issue that has a few pages in the style of Little Nemo to demonstrate its uniqueness and differentness as a dream space. Or all the deep references to DC mythology (Scott Free origins, JLI, Martian God, female metamorpho, the Sandman legacy, etc.).
There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of other references and things he pulls from all throughout history and from various mythologies and he uses references to enhance the story, uses them as representations of the themes from whatever story/mythos they represent.
Sandman is really amazing
>>78113451
>>78112979
you really just missed a lot of what made Sandman special, you are just as bad as the "teen age pop" fans you talk about
>>78113503
>>78113525
Not really, I get all of those things and you're using a lot of really limiting language, it's just that end of the day Gaiman isn't a GOAT level talent, he doesn't have GOAT level references or perspective and he didn't do GOAT level work, however his work by itself pushes a lot of buttons, buttons who were also heavily marketed by the Vertigo marketing machine and which might make people overestimate the Sandman.
>>78113565
>>78112979
>>78113038
nah you're just an elitest. they really are GOAT level everything. The entire arc of the man who lived forever, how it started as a one shot, almost gag like thing and became a serious part of the lore the interacted with other things.
And honestly the reference to little nemo is super subtle and fantastic, and the retcons to both previous sandmen is really neat.
You seem to fucking love Hellboy, but it just makes up random shit for cool points. In the first volume they have the cut away to the alien/interdimensional species to give the villain a sense of scale, and it works, but its also just kind of "lol random"
Everything Sandman brings in has meaning and is revisited in one way or another and plays a larger role in everything. It is a prime example of serialized story telling and if you can't tell that you are beyond hope ;)
And you're language is just as limiting you elitest shit head
>>78113466
While it has cape characters here and there is is far from cape (Carrey's run excluded). John loses pretty much every fight he's in, the morality is very grey and no one acts like a "hero"
>>78113668
Please go back and notice how my language isn't limiting at all, then what I assume are you posts, how instead of using "never" "missed" "just as", I use a lot of broad strokes to paint the little things that make Sandman fall just short as one of the GOAT, I can't be an elitist if we're talking about GOATs, I didn't even touch Hellboy besides casually mentioning how it's a better crafted comic.
Curiously enough, all of your arguments are in agreement with mine, as you can only defend it in and give it depth in terms of references, which I've already dismissed as at best superficial drivel. I stand by my assessment of Sandman's character, world building, and overreaching plot, the art isn't particularly amazing either, from the paneling to the coloring, and Gaiman has a superficial at best interest in the comics medium and the religious mythology Sandman borrows from.
>>78113876
>uses GREATEST OF ALL TIME, a definitive statement
>not limiting language
okay buddy ;)
and you are so completely wrong about everything
when it touches on the French Revolution, it uses specific historical characters to give a very apt commentary on the inherent hypocrisy of it, touching on things I only ever knew because I took a class once that focused on the French Revolution
the way it specifically uses Midsummer Night's Dream, due to it being one of only two shakespeare plays that have inexplicable origins, and then flips the motif of a play within a play on its head, and then continues that story arc to the finale of the series via Puck is great.
I really don't get how you can be so blind to the excellent world building, it uses self contained stories that build on each other in surprising and unexpected ways.
One character starts off in a one shot or as a minor character in one arc becomes the focus of one later or a pivotal character down the road. Its kind of amazing, and very very few other series have been able to pull off that kind of character/world building so masterfully.
I mean, shit, most Hellboy secondary characters die too soon to ever be fleshed out. And even Hellboy himself is hardly fleshed out. I know a hell of a lot more about the character of Dream and Death and even Delerium than I do about Hellboy or Abe.
>>78112249
>"I'm sometimes a good writer. It irks me that Dave is, in my opinion (and when he's firing on all cylinders) as good as, or (okay, I'll say it) better than me, and he's had longer to be good. It also irks me that he's a far, far better artist than I'll ever be, and that he's a better publisher than the majority of us (particularly those of us who really couldn't run a successful lemonade stand)." - Neil Gaiman
Daily reminder that Neil Gaiman thinks that Dave Sim is superior to Neil Gaiman.
If you worship Sandman but you haven't read Cerebus the Aardvark then your opinion is AUTOMATICALLY INVALID.
>>78114104
>touching on things I only ever knew because I took a class once
>the way it specifically uses Midsummer Night's Dream
See? That's what I mean. High School references that make people feel smart. I still stand by all of my points. Again, I'm not saying Sandman is bad, just that it's far from amazing, and if you can read straight, I said "one of the GOAT".
>>78114204
thatsthejoke.tiff
>>78114204
World renowned publisher Dave Gibbons?
>>78114220
it was a fucking college class you idiot,
and I only ever learned that Midsummer was an inexplicable play from Gaiman himself
so you are just an elitest, case an point ;)
I bet you think all the references to jewish mythos, which im sure you understood all of, were high school too eh?
thanks for a good giggle m8
>>78114246
No it's not.
>>78114270
Again, you can't borrow depth or artistry by referencing other works, that's the crutch I though was relevant enough to make a central point in my original point, which if anything you only seem to validate with each post.
Though irregardless I stand by my judgement of those references which at least in my High School, though I'm not american, were extensively covered. And ALL of the abrahamic context used was ridiculously undercooked, I'm talking Supernatural or Hollywood Kabbalah level.
>>78114270
that dude reads as if damian wayne got pissy on the internet
just that level of high school prep snob
kinda expected it tho
anytime anyone thinks a thing is great some asshole has to come in and say nuhuh no it's not cause of my other opinion instead of just go off of op and list other things they think is great
>>78114381
you're hopeless
>you can't borrow depth or artistry by referencing other works
But yes you can, and by saying you cant shows how limited of a thinker you are. All of Watchmen's depth is from its referencing other character's.
Take the issue of Sandman that is basically just a Prez story, by referencing Prez and telling his own story with the character, it becomes commentary on the political idealism of the past, how politics in the 60s it was just as corporate influenced as it was in the 80s, and how it ultimately just takes one good man to stand up against outside influence.
But wait, no you are right, its not saying ANY of that because one cannot have any depth or artistry if they reference other works ;)
>>78114496
If it was earlier in the thread I might have given this a serious reply, but now I can see you can't accurately read my posts, much less dissect them and formulate your own thoughts. Just go around and read some more books, comic or otherwise, then give it a couple of years and see if Sandman holds up.
>>78112979
>>78114584
Not that fag but you are being overly petty and have this contrarian "I'm not gonna like it cause stupid tumblrteens like it and I'm smarter than them" shtick. You're mad it gives a shallow reference to other works, people argue it isn't shallow and builds a greater world, you say it still references shit and that's bad because those referenced things are high school level things and that's bad. Shakespeare is just too mainstream to you in your goat comic discussion.
I do agree hellboy is better but I'm now curious what a patrician guy as yourself would list as the top 10 goat that gaiman isn't a part of.
>>78114584
buddy, come back to me when you've read A Contract With God, any of Kirby's or Moebius' work, Peter Milligan, Rick Vietch, Ovid's Metamorphoses, The Republic, Frankenstein, or Dante's Inferno
>>78115018
Is this a joke?
>>78115018
You're getting way too bent out of shape over some pretty basic criticism.
>>78114805
But I've professed my love for Sandman multiple times and the special place it holds in my heart, I've even admitted to enjoying other Gaiman works.
I don't think I ever sounded mad and I'm sorry if you somehow came to that conclusion, my argument on the value of references never touched on their rarity, this was actually an argument used against me, making the case for Nemo, old DC and jewish mythology, making their perceived obscurity an intricate part to Sandman's depth.
>>78114381
Irregardless isn't even a real word. It's a double negative.
delete watchmen from the face of the earth and i'd still think moore is the bomb
also miller doesnt even need TDKR or daredevil to be amazing.
Lemire
>>78112497
I'd say go for the anthology trades first. Those were always my favorites of the series. Or Season of Mist.
If those don't grab you then the series is probably just not for you.
>>78113339
I don't know man. I like -most- of Gaiman's stuff but I never liked Doctor Who and I don't know what Florence or the Machine are.
>>78113466
Jonah Hex isn't cape and he's been in a lot of cape stuff.
The cool thing about cape universes is that they have all kind of little genre niches hiding in the corners. DC has Burroughs adventure fantasy in Warlord and Philip K Dick metafiction in Animal Man and Multiversity. It has violent Spaghetti westerns in Jonah Hex and 80's "action toys" in Amethyst Princess of Gemworld.
Cape universes are weird creatures on the whole.
>>78116062
>Lemire
I've only read Sweet Tooth and Essex County so far and thoroughly loved them (Essex a tad more though), anything else of his worth a read?
>>78116819
Old Dogs and Underwater Welder are both great.
>>78112249
Sparky
>>78113668
>elitest
>;)
>you're language
Yeah no, you're the retard here, fuck off.
