Is there a character with more undeserved plot armour?
At least Batman is smart in universe and popular outside of it
Who wants to see Cap fight on even footing with Spiderman or anyone else who should snap him in half
I want to see more street level characters getting owned in general.
Street level characters ruin capeshit because they drag all the action down to their level.
>>77690116
>plot armor
>literally killed
>>77690329
I'd be down to see Green Arrow get BTFO, personally.
>>77690116
>Who wants to see Cap fight on even footing with Spiderman or anyone else who should snap him in half
Didn't he train most of them how to fight properly? Of course he has some advantage in the fight
>>77690343
This. Twice.
Cap's plot armor is because he's a symbol mostly. But he's supposed to be pretty high tier in fighting skills and tactics so he has a similar excuse to bats.
>>77690389
Spiderman has superspeed, reflexes, that should give him the edge
That and the webbing for a ranged fight
>>77690429
Bats is smarter and popular in the real world, people want to see him dominate
Cap sells than Thor and is less popular with Ironman with casuals
>Symbol
Spiderman has stronger morals/is more of a boyscout
>>77690516
>Spider-Man who had to have his dad murdered to not be a piece of shit has more morals than Cap
get the fuck out casual
hydra thread
At least Captain America is superhuman and has a shield that can basically do whatever the fuck it wants. Compared to Joker or Batman his plot armor is nothing
>>77690585
>Captain America
>Superhuman
He's still weaker than Spiderman.
>>77690554
Spiderman won't kill and won't let anyone else
Cap will kill but will tells others not to
He's a hypocrite
>>77690516
Cap is popular in universe.
There's a lot more to success than smarts.
And being a symbol doesn't necessarily just mean being a boyscout. Cap's more "muh freedumz" kind of guy.
As a Spidey fan I absolutely don't mind him losing to Cap. Just saying.
>>77690116
Yes, the joker.
>>77690585
>Joker
tbf Batman and even Nightwing have beaten the shit out of him regularly
>>77690617
Cap is Superhuman read a fucking comic. When he loses the serum in his blood in Grunwald's run he is considerably weaker, and slower, he tires more easily and recovers more slowly. He almost dies fighting Crossbones who has an inferior version of the serum that still makes him faster and stronger than non-serum Cap.
>>77690645
>Cap is popular in universe.
Because the writers/editors say so
Hence it's undeserved
>>77690698
He's only "peak human"
Take your power level faggotry back to /a/.
Cap is a master tactician
brains > brawns
his peak human condition is just a plus
>>77690718
Fuck off with your Wikipedia facts it's very clear in comics that he's superhuman. His endurance alone qualifies him as superhuman. It's not the "peak human"-serum cunt.
>>77690718
>the premise of his modern character is that he survived in ice for years and years because of his super soldier powers
>not superhuman
you are retarded
>>77690718
>fictional fame
>deserved
Are you retarded?
>>77690744
Do you even own a fedora?
This edge lord.
>>77690906
Mister Terrific is a famous genius but he won't be leading the Justice League any time soon
>>77690928
Daken killed him
Cap and various others beat the shit out of him
He had to run away from Spidey
but... he's been killed
>>77692463
I don't understand what point you're trying to make with that Mr. Terrific comparison.
Avengers (despite their nickname) were never supposed to be Earth's Mightiest hero. Cap doesn't lead them because he's le smartest (he admits Tony is smarter than him) or le strongest, but because he's a symbol as the first superhero (more or less) in that universe, as well as because of his leadership. Those are reasons why people follow him as a leader.
Leaders aren't necessarily at the top of power level rankings. I'd even say it's preferable when they aren't (Cyclops being another example).
>>77690116
>Is there a character with more undeserved plot armour?
>At least Batman
No. Just no.
>>77692626
Pretty silly reason to follow him
>>77690116
>implying Cap ain't smart
>implying Cap ain't superhuman
>implying Cap ain't got no skill and tactical knowledge to take on Spiderman
>implying Cap doesn't deserve shit 'cause he's not "popular" among casuals
>all this and while defending Bat's plot armour 'cause he's "popular"
>>77690116
He and Batman are almost equal. The difference is Batman doesn't sprout apparent powers when necessary, he just always has the solution.
Man, I remember that relatively recently there was some dumb event where Gambit made his entire suit explode, and Cap just walked it off, didn't even flinch. Because apparently he's the Hulk or some shit.
>>77692823
The dumbest and weakest on whatever team he's on
>casuals
The only ones who like him, he had one good 25 issue run and that's it
>>77692759
You're silly. Leadership is about instigating confidence in your men (which Cap does with authority, experience, compassion, usually good decision making, commitment to his ideas and men, etc), not about being able to kick the most ass.
This is not Dynasty Warriors.
>>77690745
He's definitely not stronger than T'challa or Spiderman. He's got enhanced strength at best.
>>77690474
Spidey and Cap fight in Civil War. Initially, Spider-Man is intimidated because he's fighting his personal hero and just tries to fight Cap in a straight up street fight, which earns him a few punches to the face, since Cap can fight around the spider sense. Then he calms down and fights more like a spider and less like a man, which allows him to actually draw blood on Cap. The fight isn't resolved but the implication is that Peter going full focus could whoop Steve.
>>77692919
>The dumbest and weakest on whatever team he's on
At least Ultimate Cap is explicitly metahuman.
>>77690116
Cap is a genius, read his origin.
Everyone in capes.
It's up to the writers and the customers to decide how vulnerable they are, as long as they keep their franchises alive.
>>77693303
>Cap in a straight up street fight, which earns him a few punches to the face, since Cap can fight around the spider sense
that was stupid.
>i can dodge bullets yet cap's punches are too much
>>77690516
Batman is literally "casuals first cape hero".
>>77690718
>undeserved
>served in WWII fighting for you grandfather's freedoms
>gets unfrozen continues to fight for freedom
This is like if Patton in his prime was frozen and got unfrozen to kill more fucking Nazis. Cap's reputation makes sense in universe.
>>77690357
Why?
Guys like Hawkeye and Green Arrow always get BTFO.
Why not one of the untouchable faggots like Batman or Spider-Man?
>>77690429
Also lets not forget his unbreakable fucking shield.
>Power Levels = Character Quality
You know sometimes I forget I share this board with overgrown children.
>>77694429
Spidey gets his ass handed to him semi-regularly, he just always wins the rematch. Because you know, it's a cape comic.
what are the best cap comics to read for a newbie?
>>77695746
Check out New 52. Aquaman, Batman, Wonder Woman are good places to start in my opinion.
>>77695787
for captain America what should i read ye silly billy
>>77695746
>>77695898
Brubaker's run is fantastic, but Steve Rogers isn't really the focus through a lot of it.
>>77694289
Flash TV show is bringing a lot of people to him. I would know, I'm a casual who "loved" batman.
But I started reading Flash, now I fucking hate batman, it's like the rest of the universe exists to fellate him and superman
>>77693604
Genius in the likeness of Ender Wiggin in that he can lead in an interstellar conflict against a power of relative unknowns and come out winning, not in the sense of McCoy, Stark, or Reed.
That could probably be explained in that he just hasn't tried. He should definitely be a lot smarter than like 99% of humanity that aren't freaks of nature.
>>77690617
a LOT of people are weaker than spider-man, spider-man really doesn't try to do anything because he thinks he'll pop somebody's head right off.
Spider-man could be Invincible levels of strong and nobody would know better, not even him because he doesn't try that often
>>77696396
Good to hear that the Flash is actually getting some love from people.
>>77696794
>spider-man really doesn't try to do anything because he thinks he'll pop somebody's head right off.
Which he did do in-universe. Well he didn't pop her head off, he just caved it in.
>>77696396
>But I started reading Flash, now I fucking hate batman, it's like the rest of the universe exists to fellate him and superman
Fuck, you are such a fucking fag
>>77697090
Just look at reddits dccomics subreddit. I would say 80% of new readers want to read Flash.
I just hope that the current writing is improved so that new readers get hooked. The Daniel West arc fell apart with a terrible resolution and it never picked up steam again.
>>77697107
People forget the "proportional strength/speed/agility of a spider" bit a lot.
A man-sized spider is a scary reality.
>>77697158
Spotted the batfag.
>>77697158
Batman and superman are suffocating the DC universe.
When was the last justice league solved a problem not through them directly?
The fuck are you guys arguing about? Captain America does have worse plot armor than Batman, anyone who disagrees is dumb as fuck.
>>77697512
In forever evil every justice league member was sealed into the firestorm matrix. Except Batman for unknown reasons.
He then literally walks away from the crime syndicate as well as EVERY VILLAIN IN THE WORLD, whilst carrying Cyborg on his back. He just walks away. Apparently the flash couldn't run away in time, but batman can.
He then saves the day by having a special connection with wonder woman, even though the plot for the last 30 issues was that he hadn't built up a connection with wonder woman and was advising superman to do the same.
>>77697512
>Captain America does have worse plot armor than Batman
And when was the last time captain america single handedly punch out darkseid, superman and karate kid?
>>77697610
Never read it, dont know much about it, but I bet its more logical then what you're telling me
>>77697644
Batman openly admits to being much weaker than most superheroes and villains, which is why he resorts to cheap tactics to win. He'll build suits to help him fight, like the Justice Buster and Hellbat suit.
>>77697512
>Captain America does have worse plot armor than Batman
In what sense?
>>77697838
>but I bet its more logical then what you're telling me
It's really not. The reader is told that the justice league are dead, sealed in the firestorm matrix.
The last image we had seen was the crime syndicate standing on a podium successfully with all villains surrounding them. The justice league had been caught in the middle.
The next time we see batman he has somehow escaped (I think it said through sewers? even though it was an ancient underground temple...) and made it all the way to S.T.A.R labs with Vic on his back. There is no simpler way to explain it, batman just magics his way out.
>>77690928
>hating on based Frank
>>77697838
Batman once took out the Justice League with just his bare hands in Batman Confidential.
Cap ain't got nothing on that shit.
>>77697894
I'm pretty sure Batman has been able to sneak around the Justice League a few times before
>>77697512
Plot armor just means the character can't die as long as the plot needs them. That's it.
There's no such thing as degrees of plot armor you autists, just times where it's more or less blatant that it's what is saving them. For instance Batman without plot armor would die to a couple of street thugs and Cap to being frozen.
>>77697644
He did sort of mess with the Hulk one on one. That's sorta bs.
>>77697883
In the sense that Batman knows he's not as strong and needs help. I would say in any story he doesn't go into a fight where he's extremely outmatched without some plan to help him win. Even in the Dark Knight Returns, Batman checks to make sure Superman is still at a weaker state after the nuke to make sure he can stand a chance against him.
>>77697939
He didn't just sneak around the justice league. He escaped the firestorm matrix, which trapped flash and wonder woman whilst at the same time evading the crime syndicate and, I'm not exaggerating here, every villain in the world.
>>77697978
>I would say in any story he doesn't go into a fight where he's extremely outmatched without some plan to help him win
New 52 Justice League issue 1 he fights superman without any plan.
His plan to take down green lantern was a captured yellow lantern ring, which not only didn't work, but didn't have power.
His plan to take down flash was a lightning rod, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
>>77698021
Did he succeed in any of those? and he didnt go to fight Superman for the hell of it, dont make it seem that way.
>>77697978
You should read some older world's finest where he gets into unprep-ed pissing contests with Superman over the most petty shit.
>>77697992
ill look into it
>>77698021
>New 52 Justice League issue 1
>Johns bullshit
Not a single Johns story involves a decent batman.
>>77698047
No he didn't succeed. But the notion that he has a plan for everything is flawed, that is the point I am making.
Batman isn't prepared for everything, so people should not use that excuse for when he just magics his way out of something.
For example, how come Bruce wasn't hit with the amazo virus initially when he was standing right next to the outbreak point. Yet people who were ages away (flash, aquaman) got owned by it.
>>77698086
I believe it is the final justice league issue pre-forever evil. Then issue 1 of forever evil.
>>77698115
>Not a single Johns story involves a decent batman.
Right, so any justice league reader over the last 5 years is right to think that Batman is an annoying hack.
>plot armor
>getting shot and "killed"
I'm sorry to say it, but Captain is pretty street-level.
>most of Marvel is
He fights in WWII using a shield to protect him from bullets. He's been killed and shot in the comics several times.
There is a part in The First Avenger where Captian is kicking ass - that is until... Two dudes with duel flamethrowers stop and sequester him.
>dun Dun DUUUNNN!
They could've easily fried him to death.
>>77698166
>so any justice league reader over the last 5 years is right to think that Batman is an annoying hack.
Actually yes. Johns characterization of Batman is in general terrible, i di have hope it took him 20 years to read wonder woman, so he used murderbitch, and just 1 year ago started "getting" the character. Johns batman is terrible and unlikeble.
>muh power ring
>>77698169
A guy dying and coming back to life is hardcore plot armor. Plot armor doesn't just mean you win fights you shouldn't win, it means you can't die as long as long as the plot needs you, which includes but is not limited to winning fights you shouldn't win.
>>77698122
Then there's really no point in bringing it up. I'm not going to back up Batman in all situations, writers fuck shit up for every character without exception, but for the most part Batman has more depth than people think. Whether or not Batman should be able to fight enemies like Darkseid or heroes like Superman is up for debate, but the fact that he uses cheap tactics and suits shows its not just bullshit plot armor.
>>77698243
>dying and coming back to life is hardcore plot armor
But there have been several "deaths" of characters in comics. It's not plot armor. That is just how the comic book industry is.
>>77698256
No it doesn't.
If I use a corkscrew to fend off waves of terrorists, it doesn't make it less absurd because I'm not actually empty handed.
>>77698256
It is plot armour if the "cheap tactics and suits" don't logically solve the problem by themselves. Or if he solves problems without them at all.
>>77692919
>Hawkmate
>Dark Windows
>Buffy
>>77698212
His Wonder Woman still really isn't that great. It's the best of a quite frankly terrible lot.
>>77698346
It can be both. Well it is both.
I'm sorry anon, that's the definition of plot armor. It's not because about every popular caped crusader makes blatant and repeated use of plot armor that it's not plot armor.
>>77698256
>>77698374
As an example. Batman has a suit to protect against virus outbreak (amazo).
Problem is, when the virus breaks out, he doesn't have it. Not only does he not have it, but he is arguably the closest to where the virus was released. The people nearby are the assassin and scientist, who are infected, lex who is wearing his suit and thus safe, and batman who just magically isn't infected.
That's plot armour. He should have been laid up in the medical ward along side others, instead he gets to save the day and develops ecolocation powers right as he needs them.
>>77690516
>Peter "I'll condemn a boy to death to save my own ass" Parker
having stronger morals than captain america.
>>77697512
>anyone who disagrees is dumb as fuck
>>77698449
He stealthed around the virus, obviously.
