When will the west take more interest in animation? How did we go from Snow White to the crap that's put out now? How come Japan takes more influence from Walt Disney than America does?
>>77562996
Well we've become a weak pudgy folk in general.
Terrible work ethic. No social mobility. Everything's been outsourced.
If we get our fire back, it's going to be quite awhile.
>>77562996
in order: when it becomes cheap, because it stopped making as much money as crap, and because at the time that's basically all there was
people laughed at me when i took entertainment media seriously, when I retained interest in things 'for kids', when i said i'd take strong interest in what my kids were into and make sure they were cool growing up
who's laughing now? not me. because i never had kids. but if i did they would have been cooler than this. and i'm TRYING to support cool shit with my wallet, but you guys allowed morons to get rich. I asked you nicely not to do that, but you were like 'let them, we'll profit off of them'. are you profiting now?
>>77563023
Japan's even worse off now though, in pretty much the opposite ways. all of media is going to collapse, especially once advertisers realize nobody watches ads or buys products in them,
but for a brief while it's going to be picked up by europe, who have found unique ways to make cheap computer animation look good. the heavy censorship and lack of innovation, along with the lack of wealth in the consumer base, will limit how far it can go.
>>77562996
>How did we go from Snow White to the crap that's put out now?
Mass production producing more profit than careful works of art.
Implying "EAST" hasn't gotten LAZY AS FUCK with their animation either.
Implying you're just not remembering the CHEAP AS SHIT 'eastern' animation back from the golden days of high quality anime either.
Nothing fundamental changed or was ever different to begin with. It's
1) Perspective from your point in time
2) Upgrade in automation somewhat widening the quality gap
>>77563230
japan used to put the money in where it counted. you may have had fewer frames, but those frames were beautiful
now it's just... bland. it's all icing, no cake. i'm interested in maybe one anime every two years post 2002 or so
>>77563263
>i'm interested in maybe one anime every two years post 2002 or so
And if you looked at the rate of production for those prior to 2002, you'd realize the size of the backlog is screwing with your perspective. Nothing changed. You're just caught up on everything produced that interests you.
>>77563324
you think you're clever don't you
in the 60s there were, let's say, 5 anime, and i like them all but i'm not super interested in watching them
in the 70s there were like 20, and i love at least 10 of them but they aren't going to yank my attention away from whatever else i'm watching
in the 80s let's say there were 100 anime, and i fucking adore the vast majority of them
in the 90s there were like, 2000 anime, and I love about 1800 of them.
in the 00s there were about 10,000 anime and i liked maybe 100 of them
in the 10s there's maybe 12,000 anime and I like about 5 of them
these numbers are only accurate relative to each other but you get the point right?
>>77563791
>in the 90s there were like, 2000 anime, and I love about 1800 of them.
This isn't helping your argument of it not being based on nostalgia, mate.
>>77562996
>posts Nausicaa
>An anime movie influenced entirely by French Comic Book artist Moebius
If your aim was to piss me off with ignorance, you succeeded.
>>77564232
>he thinks it's only a movie
>Influenced entirely
I know this site prioritizes hyperbolic responses, but cool your jets. If you want a medal for being so in the know, there's got to be a "giant fucking faggot" award sitting around here somewhere.
Everything is influenced by something, and that shouldn't be considered a detriment to the work
Your sense of superiority is based on trivia
You aren't better than anyone on this site
Get over yourself
>>77564573
I had sex with your mom last night.
I'm better than you.
>>77564603
Brudda that ain't something to brag about.
She's old enough to be your grandma
>>77562996
j pan is just as bad as the west, if not worst with the way the animators are treated.
>>77564810
don't forget how most anime is either moe slice of life crap or the most boring guy some how gets harem of girls.
>>77562996
At the movie theater I go to, the employees nametag has their favorite movies listed under their names, one person had Nausicaa
>>77564742
Doesn't matter, had sex.
>>77564891
Even if you don't count the slice of life, they still have more original ideas coming out then the west ever will.
>>77562996
>Nausicaa
You have a great /a/ waifu, senpai.
>>77562996
oh hai Dan
>>77567065
Well I suppose if you're into characters who are always right and have literally zero flaws, sure.
>>77562996
Exterminate all weebs.
>>77564232
>influenced entirely
It's not like it's a rip-off or anything. You can see some influence but nothing crazy.
For an anime that's REALLY influenced by Moebius check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX-_L7bSwdY
>>77562996
Problem lies with american comic book market and lack of animation studios.
Hopefully the boom in independent web comics can change that for the future.
America has a long road ahead of them.
>>77562996
The west is interested. Whenever you see the list of top grossing movies every year, you can surely find many animated movies there. The problem is that they are almost always made for the younger audiences. And even this is not exclusive of the west.
Both in the east and west to not be in a socially awkward situation, you can mention you like animation, but only if it is a Miyazaki movie.
Good animation isn't easy to do.
>>77569487
What movie is that?
>>77562996
I don't know, I don't think it's that bad. Persepolis, Waltz with Bashir, Tripplets of Belleville, Ernest and Celestine, The Illusionist, Secret of Kells, Boy and the World, Song of the Sea all come out in the 2000s.
Even in the realm of 3d animation there have been some spectacular works. The atmosphere and visual exposition of Wall-E, the scenery in HTTAD 2, the action sequences of Kung Fu Panda 2 or the detailed, naturalistic designs of Rango.
So I don't see how it's that bad.
>>77569521
On Your Mark.
>>77569533
Thanks
>>77564232
Okay? So what does Miyazaki's Moebius influence have to do with animation?
>>77562996
>How did we go from rotoscoped shit to cartoony cartoons?
Pretty easily and good for us.
>>77564573
>I know this site prioritizes hyperbolic responses, but cool your jets.
Moebius names his daughter Nausicaa & was good friends with Miyazaki. How much influence does it need to have?
Anime has gone a little bit to shit lately, especially in the animation department due to underpayment and rushed schedueles.
Look at JoJo for example, look at the OVA Scene regarding the Road Roller sequence with the recent anime version.
https://youtu.be/_CNrNQjWGHI?t=523
>>77570467
> Comparing an OVA to a a show
You might as well complain that webcomics don't look as good as graphic novels. There is a huge budget different between an OVA and a TV show.
Every day the same fucking thread.
>>77562996
Radiation mutated Japan into a bunch of manchildren that take cartoons seriously. LOL dorks
>>77570467
The direction in that OVA is seriously lacking, partly because they were really cramped for time so everything needs to happen at breakneck speed with no time to dwell on what is actually happening. The animation quality is good, but the show version of this sequence is better.
The only thing the OVA has in its favor is 'muh shading', which really just means that fucking everything is drowned in black ink so they don't have to animate as much.
>>77570636
I preffer the breakneck speed then how DP handled by picking a trait that the manga used (overexplanation of certain sequences as a way to give movement on a very static comic form) on a goddamn animation. (Did the D'Arby brothers episodes needed to be 3-parters when 2 of them where just Avdol and Joseph over-explaining shit?)
Also, some episodes foreshadow Jotaro being capable of using the World, something the anime and manga fail to do.
>>77562996
>how do we go from shit to shit?
>>77565717
name one this season other than OPM which is basically just shounenshit
>>77562996
After 9/11, animation took a backseat to military funding.
>>77562996
To be fair, back when they were making Snow White only Walt thought they were making art and not cartoons for kids.
>>77564891
Only that way because otakus are the only people buying anime and their shit.
Literally no one on this entire board actually likes cartoons, do they?
>>77563263
>it's all icing, no cake.
that's usually what I think when people offer me cupcakes
It's literally never happening. We've all accepted this right?
It's just far too costly and time consuming. It wasn't even a model that worked back in the day, the only reason we have classic Disney is Walt was such a power driven nutjob he would take 99% of the profit from their successes and funnel it directly into the next project. Studios don't work this way and the only reason it happened is there was one singular minded obsessive animation enthusiast who struck at the exact moment animation was profitable. Even if we had a guy like him today, not enough people would go see a Snow White to fund a Pinocchio in today's market we have today.
I miss Oshii and Satoshi Kon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsMTpSDAGxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW0v-NuudQw
>>77564603
I laughed at how bad this post is
>>77571069
OPM is a satire.
It is like saying that Bitch Pudding is a cartoon for little girls.
>>77562996
>Miyazaki never did another long manga like Nausicaa
>>77573851
Dude got too busy making movies
>>77571699
Enjoy his shit, but...
At this point, just go live action, really.
>>77574297
>At this point, just go live action, really.
Why
>>77574344
Cause we have movie cameras now.
I prefer more artistic styling in my animation, east or west.
>>77574481
>Cause we have movie cameras now.
What does that have to do with anything.
>>77574521
try reading the 2nd part, dingus
>>77574563
So you think your personal preference should be the norm?
>>77574586
Are you retarded?
>>77562996
Maybe donate to the new Don Bluth movie?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/donbluth/dragons-lair-the-movie
>>77574601
Are You?
You said that he should go live action and i asked why. You gave a shitty answer that didn't really answer my "Why". Also "artistic" isn't the word you're looking for you dumb prick.
>>77574673
Fuck off, Don.
>>77569596
He's just jerking off to his vast stores of trivial knowledge.
>>77569522
It's worth mentioning that most of those were either produced in France (known for having big subsidies for animation and other arts) or had cultural funding otherwise.
The average cartoon in America bases itself upon a list of prerequisites to get the most out of their money. Such examples include animation style and choice of 2D/3D, children being the target demographic, including funny or cute mascots/side characters for merchandise sales, making sure there's some sort of romance in the plot, not including too many female characters if boys are to watch, etc. Many animation pitches had to be butchered into some hamfisted version of the above in order to get greenlighted at all.
You've been able to see some of this happening when they changed up Miraculous Ladybug to its current iteration.
>>77564232
>Moebius was such a big fan of Miyazaki and his manga/film that they became great friends and he even named his daughter Nausicaa
ignorance, amirite?
>>77576211
Somewhat relevant: http://giancarlovolpe.tumblr.com/post/82641459722/a-little-behind-the-scenes
>>77574297
>>77574481
>At this point, just go live action
>Cause we have movie cameras now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz49vQwSoTE&t=4m55s
>He could also edit in a way that a lot of live-action film makers could not. During an interview Kon said that he didn't want to direct live-action because his editing was actually too fast.
The notion of not-kiddy animated movies is basically dead
But at least there's still short films
>>77576211
>produced in France (known for having big subsidies for animation and other arts) or had cultural funding otherwise.
So what? OP mentioned the "west". That's not exclusively american. Americans never made good animated adult movies. I mean, I can respect Bakshi for him trying to break new grounds but I find most of his work, besides American Pop rather disgusting. Europeans have also been the leading creators in terms of non-child oriented animated works in the west.
>>77562996
What the world of western animation currently needs is a new Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
Without something of that caliber, CGI will remain king, and with it a stigma of "for kids".
>>77569487
The biggest problem is that good animation isn't cheap
>>77562996
It's all about the perception of animation (everything is really). And the perception is animation is still for kids or grown-ups trying to relive their childhood; though, this has changed recently due to the popularity of DC/Marvel live-action movies.
But for the most part, it's supposed to be for kids. This is why I abandon all ambitions to becoming an animator/illustrator/comic creator decades ago. I'm currently donating a shit ton of illustrating and animation books I dug out of storage to my local library. I would've wasted years of time and hard work for a product hardly nobody would care about. Oh, there's success stories Stan Lee, creators of South Park, etc. But let's face it, it's the studios rolling in the major cash. And for every Stan Lee there's tons of people who barely get by or make it at all. Fuck those odds.
Currently working on something completely different and hoping it will pan out. As long as it's different enough that the perception is "this product isn't for kids", the sky's the limit for me. But pouring all my effort into the animation/comic industry with a tiny chance I'll make it while the owners of my work rake in the cash and call the shots? Yeah, no thanks.
>>77577930
>But pouring all my effort into the animation/comic industry with a tiny chance I'll make it while the owners of my work rake in the cash and call the shots? Yeah, no thanks.
That's every mass medium now, buddy.
>>77576350
How much would my daughter hate me if I name her Nausicaa?
>>77562996
What a coincidence. A kids' channel of the state was broadcasting that particular movie.
What are the best webms?
>>77567452
Tommy Wiseau, is that you?
>>77569487
>raiding the Children of Tarrone tenement.webm
>>77579651
Probably not, but I was always called Nausicaa when I was 12 by my classmates, not only that but they also said I have a "pig nose" but they were also attracted to me for some reason even though I am male and they are also male.
BTW girls were also attracted to me at that age.
>>77582368
Why did they called you Nausicaa? Also you so damn fly you turn boys gay.
>>77574833
Fuck off, /v/.
/tg/ has your back, /co/. It's just...kind of a bad time. There was a lot of tabletop game kickstarters in August, September, and October...
>>77583452
It had something to do with my surname which I won't specify and the boys mistake me for a girl for some reason. The more negative guys say I have a "pig nose".
Americans think they are too good to do work for cheap
Japanese people barely have a choice
We could make good looking animation but it would cost a ton compared to a single episode of an anime
plus we just outsource to Korea when we want things to look good anyway. if things need to look just ok, like most things, we do it ourselves. the longer we utilized this method, the more people got used to the just alright looking stuff of modern times
CALARTS
A
L
A
R
T
S
>$125 for the fucking BD
I hope Don knows why this failed.
>>77584099
This so much, American is just being a lazy sack. When they could just band together and just create something.
>>77584132
Meant for >>77574673
Animation with its bright colors exists mainly for feelgood escapism, something that the Japanese need to survive in their hellish society. Any anime that is darker in tone, such as Berserk, would look better in live action. In the West, there simply is no market, save for a bunch of manchildren on /co/ or actual children.
>>77576780
I was just about to post this.
>>77587081
CR is the purest of sex
>>77587081
What is this from? It's like the most ANIME anime I've ever seen.
>>77587081
>>77587618
seconded for wanting to know what this is
>>77587618
>>77587683
Concrete Revolution
>>77583832
>the boys mistake me for a girl for some reason
god damn anon, you were a trap, a cutie trap, how was it?was it nice?did you kiss any boy?are you still a cutie trap?
I hate it when people say that anime just came from "Walt Disney". Bambi eyes were not "Walt Disney"; Marc Davis finalized Bambi's design. He didn't get inspired by "Walt Disney comics" but by Carl Barks' duck comics. And animation & comics under the Disney umbrella were not his sole influence by a long shot. When I first saw Tezuka's style as a kid getting into anime I didn't even think "Disney" but "this guy must have really liked Popeye and other Fleischer cartoons". Lo and behold I was spot on.
Good art doesn't come from dumb shit like wanting to look superficially "Disney-like", in fact PLENTY of boring shitty American artists just thoughtlessly copy the standard "Disney renaissance" style. The "anime traces its roots within the work of Walt Disney :)" shit is the worst forced meme because it's a simplified half-truth forced by even "animation historians" whose books you will find in animation schools.
Tezuka was a good artist with a unique style because he learned how to draw and improved by observing life and picking up influences from a large variety of artists, and all the other good looking anime/manga that came after that come from a very similar artistic journey. Devilman looked unique when it came out because Nagai didn't just copy some other style, he was inspired by all sorts of shit from Tezuka manga to Gustave Doré.
Inbred bullshit and a lack of varied influences is the cancer that kills most art, whether Japanese or Western. I don't think Japan is as bad as the west now, but they still have their hivemindey art trends.
>>77587866
Forgot my pic.
Aside from the Bambi eyes, Tezuka's characters look way more Fleischer-like than Disney-like. This Popeye cameo doesn't feel remotely out-of-place in a Tezuka manga even though he didn't really change the design much.
>>77587900
>>77587866
>He didn't get inspired by "Walt Disney comics" but by Carl Barks' duck comics.
And yeah by "he" I meant Tezuka. I'm tired as fuck.
Princess Knight also had a pirate character whose design was an obvious Popeye tribute but I'm too lazy to find that panel right now.
>>77587833
Yeah, I want to be a cutie trap but I did not kiss any boy. It wasn't nice becauseI got raped by one of them. Keep in mind we were both 12.
>>77587866
well i guess you are right there, they don`t only copied dysney`s style, altough he was very influential in animation, other artist were influent too, for example this thread started with and image of nausicaa, wich was heavily influence by jean giraud style
Speaking of Fleischer influence, Miyazaki really liked the robots in their Superman cartoon and you can see a direct reference to that in one of his red jacket Lupin episodes.
>>77587974
Moebius was a HUGE influence on 80s anime styles, video game art, etc in general. You don't even need to read interviews or anything, it's super-obvious if you watch even a tiny handful of OVAs & movies from that time that practically every artist in Japan loved the guy.
People act as if Disney is the epitome of animation and that by copying them you get "perfect visuals". I guess Milt Kahl's stuff is as solid and believable as animation gets and it's fine to use stuff like that as a landmark of solid drawing & technically impressive motion, but copying the surface-level "Disney style" is what the stereotypical Tumblr artists do (when their main influence isn't the stale Adventure Time/Scott Pilgrim/Kate Beaton-mix ripoff style at least, that's more common since it requires less technical skill).
Don't forget there were other adult animators in the West but they were largely ignored. Ralph Bakshi springs to mind. The audiences are not up to it the same way the Nips are. Most animation in the west is either for children or some CGeye cancer.
>>77588155
From what I gather Japan is better but not THAT much better and generally they treat all animation as for kids or manchildren, EXCEPT FOR a handful of super-mainstream series that are ok to like; and basically digging deeper makes you a nerdy loser.
I'm not sure what standard they even use since apparently Eva is normie-approved there despite being a dorky-as-fuck series made by one of the biggest dorks in the world who cums over old anime and manga and Ultraman and Gerry Anderson's UFO, with the assistant director even saying "if you're not a socially awkward loser and can communicate with others easily then Eva's message about opening up to the world will be nothing remotely new to you".
>>77562996
>When will the west take more interest in animation?
When we stop outsourcing, storyboard and layout is far as we go now days unless it's Flash or for a commercial.
>>77563066
Traditional animation is extremely cheap and easy to do now, the problem is buyers don't want to wait anymore and now because of Flash/Toon Boom, as long as it looks like someone is moving/walking/blinking/talking they don't care how lazily it's made or how rushed it looks.
If I gathered up some guys and got a bigwig to say yes to a team of American animators (us), then I would do everything in my power to restore order again. The problem is I'd be competing with folks from Korea, India, Taiwan, and Canada and they crank that shit out on the fly lightning fucking fast. Bardel and Mercury Filmworks are absolute fucking behemoths.
From a business standpoint it's absolutely absurd to pay Americans to animate anything in today's society. Doesn't that piss you off? If it doesn't it should.
I guess from what I've got here is anyone who want to be a worthwhile animator, they get the fuck out of America because that place is not good to be an animator.
>>77579110
It's not the mediums doing it. It's aiming for mass consumption. There are still smaller outfits making good shit, but they don't have the wide distribution or advertising to really get out there. If you want wide consumption and wide appeal it comes with certain.. sacrifices. Like no longer owning your own work, for one.
And once you've done that, big buisness will demand faster production along with everything else. The masses burn through their popcorn tier entertainment with shocking speed and have little loyalty, after all.
The only way to do it is be like one of those 'raving success' stories. The guy who never sold out. They continued to work in their hole in the wall till enough people stumbled on their hole that they could fuel their mass distribution, appeal, and production on their own.
Of course, once you're the guy hiring others to do what you say, suddenly you're the one (percieved) as stealing the hard work of others and your employees are the underdogs not 'getting what they deserve' and unable to present their 'true vision'.
why doesn't CalArts and Disney make a traditionally animated show and invite all their graduating students to work as animators on it or something?
when they toss bones to Korea I die a little inside each time, it's a waste of talent
