Did hekill himselfin the end?
>>77510614
In a super roundabout way, yes.
>>77510614
He had to; he hated himself for not preventing Destruction from raping Delight.
>>77510614
Yes, this is almost explicit in the text. Overture lent some honest context to the decision, I think.
>>77512805
shit theory, 0/10
>>77512805
I actually can't tell if you're trolling
>>77512805
>after the dawn of time
>being more scared of your goth brother than the brother that raped you
>>77510614
Yes he did anon.
It's one of Nil Gayman's biggest writing flaws ever.
The overarching plot in his most famous longform series was ridiculously obscure and confusing.
Once you're done with Kindly Ones for the first time, it's all "What the fuck? That doesn't make any sense."
It take several read throughs, sometimes jumping about the reading order, to fully make sense of his motive.
>>77512969
>thinking Sandman, the king of entry-level, is obscure and confusing
Anon, maybe you're just kind of dumb.
>>77510614
>deathless personified concepts
>killed himself
>reborn in a virtually identical form
read it again
>>77512969
i found it easy enough to understand in my single readthrough
>>77513014
I think you should read it again, anon. They never claim to be deathless.
Even Destiny is collected in the end.
>>77510614
bump for cluracan best character
do you guys think Morpheus already had an idea of what Daniel might be after Odin offered to show his sim thingy in exchange for Hell's Key?
>>77513046
Hobb is the best character, chump
>>77513046
That thingy was Wesley Dodds, not Daniel.
>>77513123
>>77513046
No, it was a reference to a DC series involving superheroes and Ragnarok.
>>77513123
>>77513170
it was obviously Daniel, Neil Gaimen just had not decided how he would look like yet
so the just drew anything in the globe
You wanna know what happened to the first Desire? She fell in love with the only champion who truly understood her.
>>77513198
Don't be a silly cunt.
>>77513210
>Desire
You mean Despair?
>>77513291
FUCK! Yeah, I meant Despair. They just look so much alike.
>>77513198
Don't be stupid. This is the fucking JSA with Golden Age Sandman.
>>77513324
>>77513324
It is sad how many people don't know about my boy Wesley
Check out Sandman Mystery Theatre, /co/
>>77512805
I haven't read this book yet,I just got into comics, and I've still got to get through Hellblazer, Fourth World, Books of Magic, Claremont's X-Men, and a lot of other books,but out of context that sentence sounds hilariously weird.
>>77513355
I actually stopped reading around the time shegets pregnantbecause the formula was getting boring.
>>77513360
Man, you are getting major spoilers ITT. You should stop reading it.
>>77513198
Are you fucking kidding me? Fuck off casual
This litlle girl was /s4s/ personification, rigth?
>>77514074
Who's Dream then?
>>77514074
Why is Jemmy wearing a bra when Delirium doesn't? They are equally flat and childlike.
>>77514159
Little girls like wearing big girl clothes
>>77514159
Because Delerium is kinda androgynous and too out of it to care anyways?Or she's a trap.
>>77514159
One looks like a child the other looks like she could be in her late teens/early 20's.
>>77514343
So why is the latter drawn with her nips out instead of the former?
>>77514118
Moot
>>77514267
No, she is not
>>77514159
One is the anthropomorphic personification of insanity and the other is the anthropomorphic personification of chaos, and you're questioning their choice of clothing?
Dream is cute.
>>77514575
REPRESENTATIVE of chaos, anyway.
>>77514575
I'm questioning the artist's censorship priorities. Why are the only nipples censored a little girl's?
>>77514620
In-universe, I think a little girl wearing a bra works pretty well for Jenny's character. Out of universe, that sounds like the kind of decision that might get handed down by an editor.
>>77514620
So Dream was not a cat person?
>>77514728
But it's directly backwards. Little girl chests aren't obscene because they aren't sexual.
>>77514806
Nope. Cat sometimes, person other times, but never both.
>>77514381
Child nips=YOU GO JAIL NOW
Teen nips=Dude, kinda creepy
>>77514579
>>77514806
C U T E
>>77514159
Delirium is old as fuck. The other is a literal child
>>77513109
Hobb was great, but the real best character was Matthew.
>>77514831
the precise moment i fell in love with death
>>77517311
I had read Sandman twice before picking up Swamp Thing
Matthew is in it before his death
>>77512969
with some brief reflection his motivation as to why he allowed himself to die is fairly transparent.
>>77510614
Yes, he gave in to Delirium and sought out Destruction leading to Death.
>>77518042
That's not a bad way of putting it but I disagree that he gave in to delirium. He wasn't made, he made a rational choice. He knew that the universe was changing or had changed and that he wasn't prepared to change himself to the point where he would fit in with it.
So he used the Kindly Ones to kill himself.
He definitely killed himself, and the text is almost explicit about it during his last talk with Death. As they say, it stands more for a point of view changing, they're concepts and dreams and ideals and ideas had changed, so the concept of Dream actually had to change, too.
>>77518511
>the concept of Dream actually had to change, too.
I was thinking about this, actually, and I was wondering what Morpheus being locked away in a glass bubble for almost 70 years of the 20th century was supposed to represent. Did humanity lose their ability to dream? Not really, we managed to build bigger and bigger machines and constructions throughout that century. To imagine? Nope, lots of creative talent during that century as well.
When I was rereading Seasons of Mist, I realised there was this bit where they describe that all the time you sleep is spent in the Dreaming and something about peace and it clicked; without Morpheus and the Dreaming, we lost peace. Which is why the 20th century had two world wars, at least in the vertigo verse. Or, given that Dream himself says that the Endless are "the playthings of humans" maybe he was captured because we had lost peace.
That's my theory, anyway.
>>77518619
When an Endless dies, the concept they embody doesn't disappear. When Destruction left, there was still destruction, it was just implied to be more chaotic and outside his control. Not sure how the universe reacted when Despair died, and when Delirium changed from Delight.
>>77518650
>When an Endless dies, the concept they embody doesn't disappear.
No, it changes.
I mostly wasn't talking about Dream's death though. If you read my post again, I'm referring to the time in Preludes and Nocturnes when he was trapped inside what amounted to a goldfish bowl without water for 70 years and how his absence affected the mortal world. It's obviously different to his death because he's only absent for about three days due to dying but is trapped for 70 years.
I think, as... Daniel says (I think...) it's just a point of view dying when they die and probably something similar applies to Delight changing into Delirium but them being trapped or leaving is, I think, different because there's nothing to replace them, no new Endless to step in.
I always assumed Destruction left because he couldn't destroy his own office but he could do the next best thing; make sure it was never filled again.
>>77517565
why? i never quite get it specially why he take that route of almost destroing all of his realm
>>77518825
Because he's a drama queen, quite by definition. He's THE mopey, angsty creative type. He wasn't just going to quietly shuffle off, he was going out with the full shebang.
>>77518825
Simple suicide was not within the rules he set for himself.
>>77518619
>we managed to build bigger and bigger machines and constructions throughout that century.
Because there was no longer a proper escape from reality until the advent of the internet in the 90s, when he escaped. And this new escape was a shared dream, not a personal one, something Morpheus couldn't tolerate.
>>77518744
>Daniel says
Abel. He's in charge of secrets.
>>77518825
There's too much of himself in his realm. There was a danger that someone else could usurp Daniel by collecting more of him than was in the jewel before he became established.
>>77518825
He literally was incapable of acting outside his own version of himself so he had to do a Keikaku instead of just asking death to kill him.
>>77519971
Ah, thanks. I remembered the line but I couldn't remember who said it.
>>77519936
>And this new escape was a shared dream, not a personal one, something Morpheus couldn't tolerate.
That's a really good point. The advance of technology and human knowledge (all of human knowledge doubles in size every six moths now, doesn't it? Something like that) has caused society to change with incredible speed, which would make everything more than a little indecipherable for someone whose last look at the world was mid WWI.
>>77520213
That wasn't my point, though. Are you just congratulating yourself on your own point, then?
>>77520273
No. I didn't mention anything about the advance of technology after Dream's release, the internet or even human society changing in my first post. All I said earlier was about what happened to humanity because of Dream being capture (or what happened to Dream because of the events of that time, whichever way you want to look at).
What was your point then?
>>77520603
That the king was no longer the land, not that he somehow didn't understand it. It references The Doll's House, Sandman 9-16, and it's consequences later, and to a lesser extent an exchange between Dream and Pharamond on the future of travel. Your comments about society and knowledge seem unrelated.
>>77510614
WHY CAN'T WE UNDERSTAND, WE KILL OURSELVES IN THE END
>>77512969
Nah, I think I figured it out when reading the damn thing. He killed himself/allowed himself to die so that he might be reborn in as a less rigid and more compassionate incarnation, right?
>>77514405
Hiro is Daniel.
>>77520954
Nah, hiro came 0th and 2nd both. Doesn't fit. If hiro is any version of Dream, then moot is Wesley Dodds.
>>77514405
Who the fuck is Moot?
>>77521027
Some faggot.
>>77514831
>>77512969
The entire plot was pretty obvious. The only thing that might be confusing to a reader is references to history, mythology and fiction.
>>77510614
Death killed him to save his realm. His son then became Dream.
>>77514831
banker
>>77525957
Not his son, the son of the crazy bitch that called the furies on him. She carried the baby for so long in dreams it made some kind of connection.
The thing that confused me is that Daniel is the son of Hector and Lyta Hall. I thought Hector was Doctor Fate, or is it just Gaiman doing whatever he wants with characters?
>>77526856
Hector Hall went by the Sandman once, actually.
>>77526943
That's the nice thing about Sandman. It works on several levels. For those who are not familiar with all the characters it's still an interesting story and for those at get the references they don't seem obnoxious.
