Were we actually supposed to think Ramses was the bad guy here?
We're supposed to think he was tragically blinded by upbringing, just like Moses was tragically torn between his duty to his brother and his people. Ramses continues a campaign of brutal slavery, Moses destroys Egypt by facilitating the plagues.
If anything, the "bad guy" is YHWH for setting up the situation in the first place with Joseph and solving it in the most wasteful way possible.
the film represents Rameses as a lot more sympathetic than the Pharaoh of the Bible
>>77428732
>Ramses continues a campaign of brutal slavery,
The Jews historically practiced brutal slavery too
They conveniently left out the part where God is literally forcing him to not change his mind.
This movie made me real sad because I honestly just wanted Moses and Ramses to keep being bros.
>>77428741
The Pharaoh of the Bible is subjected to mind control by YHWH to prevent him from acceding to their demands purely so YHWH can make an example of him.
>>77428749
Yeah, but this isn't about Jewish history, this is about the animated film The Prince of Egypt
Yo dawg I heard you're tired of your Jewish slaves rebelling. So I took all your Jewish slaves so you wouldn't have to worry about Jewish slave revolts.
>>77428764
What Moses does is a lot worse than the slavery practiced by Ramses. Also note he doesn't give a shit about any non-Jewish slaves.
>>77428759
> The Pharaoh of the Bible is subjected to mind control by YHWH...
you're obviously alluding to the verse in Exodus which says 'God hardened Pharaoh's heart'
(Ex 9;12)
i would suggest that unless God softens a man's heart, then all of us would act just as the Pharaoh did, were we in his position
Why did they have Jew slaves? How does one acquire such a thing?
>>77428828
An ethnic group that nobody likes attempts to move through your territory, or is within striking distance, and has no way of defending themselves against you, so you take what you want.
>>77428812
That's a weird assumption and twisted logic to rationalize the passage.
>>77428828
Historically, they didn't.
>>77428828
you can read the account of Joseph in the later chapters of Genesis, to give you an understanding of why the Israelites were in Egypt in the first place
then the opening chapters of Exodus show some of the ways Israel was put into slavery
>>77428873
>taking the Bible as a literal historical source without checking against other available sources and archaeological evidence
>>77428828
>tfw you will never have a Jew slave to caress
It'd be liking having a cat that can do your taxes for you.
>>77428897
I would like Julia-Lois Dreyfuss to be my Jew slave
>>77428897
But then its descendants would take credit for your accomplishments and demonize you.
>>77428852
when you refer to my assumption, are you talking about my reference to the hard-heartedness of every man?
it's a constant theme of Scripture that Mankind has rebelled against God, and is at war with Him - so the natural man is hard of heart, and hates God
the fact that God ordains many to be hard hearted, and so makes them 'objects of His wrath' on which he may pour out His infinite anger, is nothing new to the Scripture either
>>77428755
yeah, in the song 'the plagues' he literally sings to let his heart be hardened, while it was the Hebrew god that hardened his heart everytime.
Heck, if you read the Old Testament, the Pharaoh actually gave in when shit started hitting the fan and his priests couldn't perform the same wonders/plagues as Moses.
Seriously, reading the OT makes God seem like a sociopathtic asshole most of the times, while NT Jesus adventures and the power of friendship, God is like Barney the Dinosaur.
>>77428912
Yet that's not what the passage says. Nor is the old testament concerned with anything but the tribes worshiping YHWH or his predecessors.
>the fact that God ordains many to be hard hearted, and so makes them 'objects of His wrath' on which he may pour out His infinite anger, is nothing new to the Scripture either
So God is a huge dick.
>>77428897
I want the guy who plays quikslav to be my Jew slave.
>>77428910
Just don't let them breed.
Guys don't talk too loudly, /tv/ might hear us.
>>77428919
>Seriously, reading the OT makes God seem like a sociopathtic asshole most of the times, while NT Jesus adventures and the power of friendship, God is like Barney the Dinosaur.
>tfw the Gnostic heresies were all right and OT God isn't actually God
who /cathar/ here?
>>77428894
> dismissing the Bible outright because one doesn't like what it says
>>77428912
>and so makes them 'objects of His wrath' on which he may pour out His infinite anger, is nothing new to the Scripture either
>God is literally the God Emperor of Mankind from 40k
>>77428922
> So God is a huge dick.
sounds like you have a hard-heart toward God
>>77428939
>not dismissing segments of it that contradict all other known sources and scientific evidence
You a young earth creationist, too?
>>77428759
Everything in the world only happens because God allows it to happen.
>>77428952
You sound like a battered housewife
>he hurts us because he loves us!
>>77428897
What would a Jew slave even be useful for aside from sucking your dick.
>>77428953
> not accepting that there may be some elements of the Biblical account demonstrably in line with modern archaeology and SCIENCE
you a fedora-tipper too?
>>77428973
Hollywood contacts, help on your tax returns, sucking your dick...
>>77428700
Well, he keeps nagging about that slab of his.
>>77428981
Yes, and I'm also literally made of straw.
>>77428981
>Implying the story of Moses as presented in the Bible is one of those elements
>>77428984
I'm sold, why can't I have a jew slave again?
>>77429018
Because a bronze age fire/war god will kill your family.
>>Yes, worship our desert god.
Were we actually supposed to think Frollo was the bad guy here?
>>77428981
> not accepting that there may be some elements of the Biblical account demonstrably in line with modern archaeology and SCIENCE
But they really aren't, at least those parts that tell about the Exodus. Hebrews were never even near Egypt, they have always lived in Canaan. The whole Egyptian slavery myth was invented, along with monotheism, during the Babylonian captivity to boost the collective group spirit of the captured Hebrew elite.
This is, at least, the version they taught me in the university's Old Testament course and what I personally believe is backed by every single other credible evidence in archaeology and non-biblical literary source in the Ancient Middle East.
>>77429040
He wanted to rid France of gypseys. Seems like a good guy to me.
>>77429032
>Good goy, discard the culture that brought you advanced science and commerce, become non-materialist pacifists and leave the banking to us!
>>77429045
Yeah but he wanted to bone a gypsy. Bad judgement on his part.
>>77429044
>Hebrews were never even near Egypt,
They did occasionally hire Hebrew mercenaries IIRC, like many nearby powers, but otherwise yeah, never in large amounts and no recorded slaves
>>77428970
you sound like someone who doesn't really want to engage with the material, but would rather throw insults so as to feel superior to unevolved dumb dumbs, to wit: a bully
> imma project my flaws onto people whom i dislike, God being one of those people
>>77428993
> Yes, and I'm also literally made of straw.
i initially suggested that there's another way of looking at the hardening of one's heart - and rather than anon asking why i would suggest such a thing, and drawing out my reasoning; my argument has been misrepresented while never really examined
>>77429007
> inferring i'm implying anything, rather than stating it categorically
>>77429059
Well, yes. I didn't mean to imply that individual Hebrews were never ever near Egypt but that they were never there as a large group.
>>77429052
Every character needs flaws to be interesting and sympathetic. Wanting to bone a hot gypsy is something we can all relate to.
>>77429044
>they have always lived in Canaan.
Well, for recorded history anyway.
>The whole Egyptian slavery myth was invented, along with monotheism,
This is a bit oversimplified. It wasn't invented out of whole cloth. It was a gradual process of the God that would become YHWH gaining increasing prominence and internal tribal and religious schisms. The eventual monotheist faction won, of course, and suppressed the rest of the old Hebrew national pantheon/incorporated their attributes into YHWH, and suppressed worship of related deities like Baal.
>>77429062
>i initially suggested that there's another way of looking at the hardening of one's heart - and rather than anon asking why i would suggest such a thing, and drawing out my reasoning; my argument has been misrepresented while never really examined
Your argument is an extremely flimsy rationalization. It's like you don't really want to engage with the material.
>so as to feel superior to unevolved dumb dumbs, to wit: a bully
Quite some issues you're working on there.
>>77429062
> imma project my flaws onto people whom i dislike, God being one of those people
I've never killed anyone for any reason
>>77429076
Is it ever explained where YHWH actually came from? In Babylonian myths you can see names like El and that makes a certain amount of sense, but it's hard to see where YHWH himself comes from.
>>77429112
It's not a single event or anything but a gradual evolution from El/El-Shaddai. He was originally a national protector god like many semitic peoples had, associated with war and fire, IIRC.
It appears he also used to have a wife too, interestingly.
>>77429044
This is, at least, the version they taught me in the university's Old Testament course and what I personally believe is backed by every single other credible evidence in archaeology and non-biblical literary source in the Ancient Middle East.
i'm guessing you're talking about the lack of archaeological evidence of the 40yrs spent in the Wilderness - and while the Bible makes some reference to the clothing (and by extension, the tools and crafts of the Israelites) not wearing out nor needing discarded; i agree it seems like a bone of contention
(Deuteronomy 8:4, 29:5 & Nehemiah 9:21)
but we do have archaeological evidence of the immediate events that happened when Israel entered the Promised Land, such as the destruction of Jericho, so we have some proof that a nomadic people-group did come into that land during that time and took it over
>>77429062
>Pretending like you weren't making implications based on the context of this conversation and backing out when you got called out for it
>>77429160
>i'm guessing you're talking about the lack of archaeological evidence of the 40yrs spent in the Wilderness
No, he's talking about the complete lack of records of any large population of Hebrew slaves at any time in Egypt, a notably bureaucratic and fastidious civilization.
>but we do have archaeological evidence of the immediate events that happened when Israel entered the Promised Land, such as the destruction of Jericho, so we have some proof that a nomadic people-group did come into that land during that time and took it over
this happened constantly in the Levant.
>>77429160
>of the 40yrs spent in the Wilderness
Isn't this a common turn of phrase at the time being taken literally by modern audiences when it's not meant that way?
>>77429160
>but we do have archaeological evidence of the immediate events that happened when Israel entered the Promised Land, such as the destruction of Jericho, so we have some proof that a nomadic people-group did come into that land during that time and took it over
Yes, but there is no evidence of any kind of cultural change. Would Hebrews just abandon all their former cultural practices and just completely embrace the culture of the people they just conquered?
I personally find more believable that the Hebrews have always lived in the hills of Canaan, and while they were probably nomadic (in a sense that they got most of their food out of livestock instead of farming) they were probably culturally almost identical to the people who lived in the cities of Canaan.
Also, I don't think there is evidence in Egypt that the Hebrews had ever lived in there as a large group or were ever used as slaves.
>>77428790
Moses didn't kill all the first-borns, God did. And if you disagree with God, what are you gonna do? Try and fight him?
>>77429209
>And if you disagree with God, what are you gonna do? Try and fight him?
Sounds like a plan. I'm with you, Mr. Lucifer.
>>77429086
> Your argument is an extremely flimsy rationalization. It's like you don't really want to engage with the material.
i was responding to the accusation of building strawmen - and pointing out that as yet, there have been few to actually discuss my argument; most choosing instead to misrepresent my thinking before it's even been examined to see the strength of it
> Quite some issues you're working on there.
in that instance i was responding in kind to someone who wished to bully me - drawing my tone from the manner they deemed appropriate to address such issues in
>>77429102
> I've never killed anyone for any reason
you say that like it's a good thing
don't you think some people deserve to die for the misery they inflict on the world?
and if they deserve to die, and you haven't killed them, then that's hardly something to be proud of, is it?
>>77428759
>mind control
I mean, if God created the universe with full control over how he wanted it and perfect knowledge of everything, every action anyone's ever taken was God's doing.
>>77429209
>>77429226
>there have been few to actually discuss my argument;
Your argument is so ridiculous I don't even know how to address it. "Well you see this passage doesn't actually at all mean what it says through this incredibly circuitous logic"
>don't you think some people deserve to die for the misery they inflict on the world?
Perhaps, but very few of them are young children.
>>77428700
>Those evil Egyptians! Killing babies and children!
>I-it's okay when God does it...
>>77429230
>I mean, if God created the universe with full control over how he wanted it and perfect knowledge of everything, every action anyone's ever taken was God's doing.
That's a whole other philosophical point about the nature of free will and causality. At the very least this is more direct intervention than usually characterizes his behavior.
>>77428759
I've always found that a simplistic reading. It seems more like a rhetorical device than a literal event.
>>77429209
If we could get our shit together and launch some iron chariots off of a Tower of Babel, we'd stand a pretty good shot of at least ruining his day.
>>77429226
>don't you think some people deserve to die for the misery they inflict on the world?
"Deserve to die" is a dumb way of looking at it. If killing them is the only way to prevent them from hurting others, sure. But if they can be stopped without killing them, then killing them accomplishes nothing and is pointless bloodshed.
And it's weird to see people as "deserving" of punishment when your belief system also says that God created everything (which includes every individual person) to wind up exactly the way they are.
>>77429267
Let's be honest: No one has tried to kill God in many thousands of years. With a modern defense R&D budget and tech, I think it's worth a serious try.
>>77429226
>don't you think some people deserve to die for the misery they inflict on the world?
>and if they deserve to die, and you haven't killed them, then that's hardly something to be proud of, is it?
That's fucking insane.
>>77428812
Contextually it's obvious that the pharaoh's default state was one where he was 'soft-hearted' enough that he'd have done the right thing until Yahweh moved in there and prevented him from doing so.
>>77429232
It's been done before her. A lot.
For some reason the Japanese REALLY want to kill God.
>>77429303
Because he's a cunt
>>77429307
Why the Christian God though? They have their own deities to murder, surely? Or at least they could go over and kill China's.
>>77429169
> No, he's...
you'll forgive me, but with the sheer volume of misrepresentation going on in this ITT thread, i can't afford to address anyone puporting to speak for someone else, and as i'm sure you'll understand, i stopped reading right thar
>>77429204
> Yes, but there is no evidence of any kind of cultural change.
earlier on you said that monotheism was developed during the Babylonian Captivity - so i'll assume you mean that the Scriptures from Genesis onward were somewhat 'retconned' in that period, yeah?
now that would be a lot of work for those elites in Babylon, because from the description of the tent of Tabernacles, through the design of the Ark of the Covenant, to the ceremonies that were practiced continually - you have representations of 'One' God
then on top of that you have the liturgies, the psalms, the oral traditions of the common people whom are currently in captivity - and those retconning elites would find it necessary to include so many stories from the preceding generations; not only the books of Moses but also those tales of the Judges, prophets and Kings whom had governed Israel
and yet for such a capable bunch who were able to hoodwink so many, they sure made some schoolboy errors where they should have made immediate revision, such as the opening to Genesis where God says 'Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image'
surely those promoting monotheism in Babylonian Exile would have seen such words as these as being of first importance?
so i disagree with you on the idea of monotheism being an evolved understanding - and since we know that monotheism was preciously unknown throughout Canaan, then i think there's really good evidence for that cultural change you believe didn't happen
>>77429312
Because they're less cunty? Also, because the Christian God is a foreign god. Not that hard to figure out dude
>>77429313
>i stopped reading right thar
How convenient.
>in this ITT thread,
You're a moron.
>>77429265
This. Do some research into the Hebrew language to discover that this isn't actually what was meant by the line.
>>77429313
>so i'll assume you mean that the Scriptures from Genesis onward were somewhat 'retconned' in that period, yeah?
There was nothing to retcon. They were largely oral tradition at that point, and probably varied a bit from place to place anyway. Your scriptures weren't written down into a big holy book with tightly regulated canon yet. Nor was there a conspiracy of elders pulling this off, but a gradual mythological evolution happening over a roughly 500 year period.
>>77429303
I know, I don't even really like her but the only other person I tought of was Kratos and I dislike him even more. Also he kills pagan gods so he wouldn't even fit here.
>>77429317
>Because they're less cunty?
I don't know as much about their pantheons specifically but most western non-Abrahamic pantheons have at least one or two colossally cunty Gods
>>77429338
>western non-Abrahamic pantheons
What's that got to do with Japan
>>77429313
>so i disagree with you on the idea of monotheism being an evolved understanding - and since we know that monotheism was preciously unknown throughout Canaan, then i think there's really good evidence for that cultural change you believe didn't happen
He's specifically speaking of the fall of Jericho period you're talking about when he says that, where as you're talking about the Babylonian exile.
Your comprehensive ignorance on the subject makes it very hard to follow the argument, I suppose.
>>77429348
I'm saying I find it hard to believe they have the one native pantheon that's not chock full of (sometimes literal) dicks. Though it's still possible.
>>77429272
> And it's weird to see people as "deserving" of punishment when your belief system also says that God created everything (which includes every individual person) to wind up exactly the way they are.
well i'm sorry anon, but since no-one has chosen to draw me out on my argument, i haven't been able to articulate my 'belief system' that God deliberately ordains that many humans will be brought into this world solely to serve as 'objects of wrath' - creating them to 'wind up exactly the way they are' so as for God to pour out His anger upon
in fact my Christianity demands that i believe that 'everyone' is by nature and intent; wicked - until such time as God chooses to have mercy upon a person, softening the heart of that reprobate and causing them to repent
so for me the idea of God 'hardening the heart' of Pharaoh isn't 'mind control' but rather, part of the ordination of God that such a man would be true to his rebellious nature and do what he does best, namely, hate God
>>77429358
>i haven't been able to articulate my 'belief system' that God deliberately ordains that many humans will be brought into this world solely to serve as 'objects of wrath' - creating them to 'wind up exactly the way they are' so as for God to pour out His anger upon
That is colossally fucked up.
>>77429358
You're insane, you know that right?
>I believe that God makes all men naturally hate him, so he can have a rage boner one hundred percent of the time
>>77429358
You're a fucking degenerate Calvinist of some type, I bet.
>>77429303
>For some reason the Japanese REALLY want to kill God.
We never should have statted Him.
>>77429368
Until he takes "mercy" on them by making them feel horrible for the shit he made them do and live in agony while begging his forgiveness for doing what they were designed for.
>>77429363
It's standard Calvanism. Few people believe it explicitly these days, but it was a very influential strain of Christianity for a while and its attitudes persist in subtle ways into modern times.
Nobody would say it that outright, which probably means he's a troll, but they would say things that imply that when you think about them.
>>77429313
>and yet for such a capable bunch
I think that is a little bit oversimplification. There was no grant proto-Jewish conspiracy to recreate their religion into monotheistic one, there was an trend to focus their religion into worshiping only one deity and it later evolved from monolatry into monotheism.
Yes, God speaks in plural in Genesis but I personally believe that is because he is speaking to other deities of his pantheon. Later, monotheistic readers would leave it to place because the Jews would assume he is speaking to his sons (the Angels) and Christians would assume he is speking to his Son (Jesus).
Internally the Old Testament is mostly pretty coherent, I admit, but there is still some pretty weird remains from older traditions. For example, the Angels are called "Sons of God" and there is that one part where "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." (Psalm 82:1). I find it rather believable that these are remains of a polytheistic Hebrew religion inside the text.
>>77429378
That Calvinist shit belongs in the Middle Ages and it's fucked up it was happening during the Enlightenment, much less the 21st fucking century. Literal savages.
>>77429293
>Killing God
>Not harnessing him as an energy source
>>77429390
Go away Xenogears you are an overrated game
>>77429396
Actually it's from a movie I think. Some guy coming from the future to hide, and gets romantically involved with a local woman. Talks about a device that lets scientists see gods. About ~100 of them.
>>77428700
well yeah. i mean, just because the "good guys" were dicks doesnt mean he wasnt one
>>77429328
> They were largely oral tradition at that point, and probably varied a bit from place to place anyway.
you'll note that i mention the oral traditions in >>77429313 where i said
> then on top of that you have the liturgies, the psalms, the oral traditions of the common people whom are currently in captivity
now since you seem to posit that during the Babylonian captivity there was the development of monotheism, thereby necessitating the incorporation of those traditions into a 'canon' of sorts, i'm arguing that the groups whom undertook that work were particularly inept at that task, because so many irregularities are maintained in that collective work
for if we take into account such works as Genesis, where God both refers to Himself as 'Us' and appears on Earth to talk to the likes of Enoch or Abraham - and then seems to do so again, whilst 'during' the Babylonian Captivity in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego; we have examples of multiplicity in the Being of God which surely the developers of Monotheism should have got on top of
of course i make this argument from within the confines of your worldview as taught to you in your " University's Old Testament course (sic)" - which i think is maybe a little too reductive; because it seems to dimiss the idea that such works as the Psalms were extant before the Babylonian exile
(another set of works that have many allusions to multiplicity in the Being of God)
and of course, we also have the most famous figure from within the Babylonian Israelites; Daniel - who himself made mention of 'One like the son of man' being worthy of a throne with God, thereby exhibiting equal status with God, and demonstrating mutliplicity within the 'One' God - and if the Babylonian developers of monotheism couldn't even handle such contemporary views of God, then i think your trust in their conspiracy of elites is unfounded
>>77429491
>now since you seem to posit that during the Babylonian captivity there was the development of monotheism,
That was the start, it was an ongoing process not complete for some time.
>i'm arguing that the groups whom undertook that work were particularly inept at that task, because so many irregularities are maintained in that collective work
That's because no one really set out to do it initially, it just gradually happened.
Crazy Christian fundamentalist doesn't understand anything happening on its own without quasi-omnipotent top down intervention, news at 11
>>77429338
They do have a few utter cunt gods, but the Western monotheism is more exotic to them. That's why so many RPGs have their evil gods based on Abrahamic religions - because their own historical culture is not big on the whole "praise one god" thing that makes for a good evil church to oppose, so they base it on foreign montheistic religions.
Most primary religions in Asia have kind of a LOT of gods.
>>77429378
>Nobody would say it that outright, which probably means he's a troll
Can we still get some "Hide Calvinist Threads" images made up for shits and giggles?
>>77429491
>of course i make this argument from within the confines of your worldview as taught to you in your " University's Old Testament course (sic)" - which i think is maybe
You realize you're being talked at by multiple people right? I'm not that guy.
>>77429491
>then i think your trust in their conspiracy of elites is unfounded
No one is saying anything about a conspiracy of elites you dense fuck.
>>77429378
> which probably means he's a troll
> which probably means he's a
> which probably means he's
> which probably means
> which probably
> probably
definitely
fxd
i mean c'mon man, look where you are - it's 4chan m8
... course that's not to say i ain't doing exactly what Jesus has called me to - pic related
>tfw Catholicism actually has a Patron Saint of Shitposting
>>77429508
I am that guy.
>>77429491
>"University's Old Testament course (sic)"
Yes, yes, I am not native English speaker and these threads are fast so I have no time to spellcheck. I still think you understood my points?
>>77429518
This.
>>77429540
then why are they so bad at it compared to us prots?
>>77429529
>it's 4chan m8
Pop over to /lit/ sometime. We're so deep into contrarianism that hardcore Christian fundamentalism is cool again, as long as you mention Aquinas every few posts.
>>77429169
>a notably bureaucratic and fastidious civilization.
So where the Romans, and they had tons of slaves.
>>77429571
Yes. And they kept careful records of ownership and sale, dimwit. Things that don't exist regarding Hebrew slaves in Egypt, unlike every other category of slave they kept.
>>77429571
Uh, so? The Romans kepts records of their slaves
>>77429558
cheers for the invite - but it presumes i ain't already there :3
>>77429303
But Ultima was a false god that was a demon. That's not the same.
>>77429606
OR IS IT?
>>77429606
'demon' is just a political allegiance. they're still gods.
>>77429606
>But Ultima was a false god that was a demon.Just like YHWH aka the Demiurge
>>77429606
Nevermind all that. You wanna avenge your sister's death or not?
Ay yo. Christfag.
Check it.
Comprehend 415.5 sextillion square miles. Now imagine 100 billion more galaxies, some smaller or bigger. Take off the trip, or go back to wherever you came from.
Probably those "crying bald girl who posts about an atheist strawman" bait threads from /b/.
I CAST YOU OUT, IN THE NAME OF THE FOUNDER, THE ANON, AND THE HOLLY IMAGE BOARD
>continues an era of brutal slavery because MUH FAMILY TRADISHUN
>refuses to let Moses's people go, despite massive plagues (and the whole hardened heart thing never even applies here, since it's not relevant to the movie)
>actively tries to murder all of his people after a chase scene, and seeing what God is capable of
>b-but God is the bad guy here! muh hardened heart reinterpretation which never existed in the original bible transcripts!
>>77429358
I hope there's a hell for you to burn in for not loving thy neighbor.
>implying going around saying all mankind is but a puppet for God to play out fantasies against is something He'd appreciate
Exercise your free will, jackass, stop being an ass on the Internet. You won't convert anyone here.
>>77429668
Moses/God is a mass murderer of children. Trumps anything Ramses did.
>pic
Of course a fan of tumblr:the cartoon has such dumb opinions. Ramses is an over-privileged shitlord after all
>>77429668
>which never existed in the original bible transcripts!
If you know where the "original bible transcripts" are I urge you to report to your nearest archaeologist.
Ramses is a hero and we should admire his refusal to negotiate with terrorists.
This Ramses is supposed to be Ramses the Great, right? How'd this whole thing factor into that big war with the Hittites over the Levant? Also why isn't he a ginger like he was in real life?
>>77429677
>Moses/God is a mass murderer of children. Trumps anything Ramses did.
He's also God, so he gets to do whatever he wants. Ramses is a retard for thinking he could have it his way.
>>77429728
Ramses is a polytheist that doesn't know the goat shit farmers he's enslaved have an OP deity that let them be enslaved for generations because lol why not
>>77429575
>>77429579
Fair enough, but considering the following.
The Egyptians removed all the records after the Exodus.
>>77429749
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesis
>>77429749
>the records were totally there guys they just destroyed them all
>>77429749
>The Egyptians removed all the records after the Exodus.
That kind of conspiracy would be difficult NOW, much less at their tech level.
>>77429749
The hebrews also kindly removed all major signs of their own material culture from the region too before they left. And did so perfectly. Also any possible references from any neighboring cultures that might have purchased slaves in Egypt. Until the Hebrews are the only ones with surviving records depicting THE TRUTH.
>>77429677
>Moses/God is a mass murderer of children. Trumps anything Ramses did.
Except God warned his people ahead of time about how to protect their children. Pharaoh did the equivalent of letting his son down a ton of bleach despite safety warnings.
Also, you forgot about the whole "Feeding innocents to crocodiles" thing which Pharaoh did in the bible, and Ramses happily continued that tradition in the movie. He never spoke ill of it, and was a slave to his father's idiot morality.
>>77429683
I refer to the original, non-translated bible. Where it specifically says in these EXACT WORDS "he hardened his heart". And guess what? God is never mentioned in that part. So the implication is that pharaoh is the one hardening his heart, god merely allowed him to be stubborn. King James had to come along and derp out his own interpretation.
>>77429749
They also removed any records of grain consumption or taxation or anything else would indirectly point at the existence of a shadow class of slaves that they were trying to suppress, I guess?
>>77429788
>Ramses should have believed in THIS god and not his own, because reasons
>>77429788
>the original, non-translated bible
we have zero copies of that
>>77429788
>I refer to the original, non-translated bible
You know this doesn't actually exist right? Be more specific. Are you talking the the version of the Torah translated for Ptolemy Soter's Great Library? Something even earlier? Dead Sea scrolls (although I'm not sure if Exodus has any presence in those)?
>>77429760
Well fuck you to
>>77429764
>The records aren't there guys, it totally means it didn't happen.
>>77429765
>>77429793
Egypt is a land that has seen much conquests. It's not unreasonable to assume that some records have been lost and destroyed. How much knowledge and records do you think were lost when the great library of Alexander burned down?
And just as a side note we haven't even found the tomb of Genghis Khan, one of our worlds greatest conqurere and brutal man there ever was and no tomb has been found. And unlike the Exodus he didn't live over 3000 years ago.
>>77429907
>It's not unreasonable to assume that some records have been lost and destroyed. How much knowledge and records do you think were lost when the great library of Alexander burned down?
>almost exclusively records pertaining to Egyptian Hebrew slaves
>everything else from the alleged period is untouched
>No other culture or records anywhere mention it, just the Exodus account
sure. By the way I'm a Nigerian Prince and if you'll send me your credit card numbers in the email I'm about to show you it'll REALLY help me out of a jam.
>>77429907
>The records aren't there guys, it totally means it didn't happen.
That's usually how it works, yes. Evidence, it's a wonderful thing
>>77429907
>And just as a side note we haven't even found the tomb of Genghis Khan, one of our worlds greatest conqurere and brutal man there ever was and no tomb has been found. And unlike the Exodus he didn't live over 3000 years ago.
One tomb in a giant steppe that from satellites would look like another round of raised earth, if eve that much is intact vs a chain of large, densely populated, well explored ruin sites contiguously inhabited for a long period of time with many, many surviving records from the period in question. Except for these that totally existed it's just we managed to miss every single one and JUST this one. And same for any other cultural artifacts that might have survived besides records like household shrines, Canaanite material culture, etc etc
You're a moron.
>>77429918
Because they lost to the Hebrews, they lost to slaves. Why would a great empire keep the records of such a stain on their record?
>>77429920
Well you have your evidence, the one documented by the Hebrews.
>>77429954
One source that is completely unverifiable.
It's not the most compelling evidence
>>77428700
>God destroys all our food
>Makes it rain delicious frogs and bugs
>Dip bugs in honey, grill the frogs
>Free food for less work
Egypt wins again, jew god.
>>77429954
>Because they lost to the Hebrews, they lost to slaves. Why would a great empire keep the records of such a stain on their record?
They lost wars before. There's still archeological evidence of it and records from neighbors verifying it.
>>77429976
>mfw
based Mafdet bless us as we eat your bounteous frog children
>>77429960
And what about the writen records of Hecataeus of Abdera and Ipuwer Papyrusfrom the period?
>>77429978
Losing a war is not the same as losing to slaves.
>>77430008
What about them?
>>77430008
>Losing a war is not the same as losing to slaves.
Yeah when you lose to slaves all records remotely connected to them and all their possessions evaporate into a cloud of nutrinos so you can't fail in a cover up like Ramses II spinning his loss against the Hittites at Kadesh as a victory but still being found out by modern archaeologists.
>>77430028
They describe a even very similar to the Exodus from the Egyptian and Greece point of view
>>77430008
>Losing a war is not the same as losing to slaves.
Archaeologically speaking yes they are the same and your lack of evidence only suggests that Egypt never "lost" to slaves except maybe in one of their worker strikes and the only slaves there are wage slaves.
>>77430045
Do they? Because no complete work of Hecataeus has even survived to the modern day as far as we know, so I'd be interested to see where you found this
>>77430008
You realize the writing in question from "Hecataeus" that you're referring to is fraudulent, right?
>>77430057
He's talking about Pseudo-Hecataeus, who was a Hellenized Jew rewriting one of his fragmentary works. He just doesn't know the difference because he presumably looked this up on a Christian Scientist website or some shit.
>>77430057
Assmann, Jan (2009). "Moses the Egyptian: The Memory of Egypt" page 34
>>77430062
According to who?
>>77430100
>Assmann, Jan (2009). "Moses the Egyptian: The Memory of Egypt" page 34
>old as fuck German Egyptologist from the 60's using totally outdated information and ignoring modern archaeology
Do tell me of how he drew that conclusion from the extremely fragmentary nature of what you're referencing.
>According to who?
Every fucking historian in the field.
>>77430116
>using totally outdated information and ignoring modern archaeology
With a book written in 2009? You aren't even proving me wrong in this case, how about you track down the book and see for yourself instead of just being on mindless offence?
>>77430142
>With a book written in 2009?
Yes. His book is ideologically motivated and it suits his aims and training. You see this a lot with Egyptologists.
Hecataeus' stuff is ages after this would have happened anyway so even setting all this crap aside it's not actual evidence. Pseudo-Hecataeus is just melding Hebrew folklore with Hecataeus's historical writings in the 3rd century BC.
Man I wonder what would happen to this guy if you told himthere's no actual contemporary archaeological record of any specific individual called Jesus of Nazareth
>>77430165
Well let's go on /pol/ level of conspiracy theory and say that everyone who says that the Hebrews never were slaves are also ideological motivated and it suits their aims and training.
>>77430213
One person is not a conspiracy, moron. I can find one author to support any point. Want me to produce an engineer that says the World Trade Center was rigged in a controlled demolition?
>>77430213
Ok now find a way to get this to work on the other 20 points against it you have never addressed. Got any more Egyptaboo editorialists loosely interpreting vague, paragraph long fragments from a millenia after the fact of dubious authorship shoved down your pants to cover it?
>>77430142
>I'm going to say this guy supports my point but I'm not going to tell you what he says or even how what he says supports my point, you need to go buy a $200 dollar academic text or take my word for it
>>77429226
>don't you think some people deserve to die for the misery they inflict on the world?
Not really, no.
Killing people can be justified, if it stops them from inflicting misery on the world, but it's never a good thing.
>>77429976
What always bothered me about that, was that okay, famine hits Egypt...
Wouldn't you think that the jewish slaves would have starved to death by the point that their evil Egyptian overlords started feeling the food shortage?
Who is going to be the first to not get food? The citizens, or the slaves who also claim that it's their doing that there is no food?
>>77428759
I liked the part where he did this so he can order the jews to cheat egyptian commoners out of all their gold and silver by making them "seem honest". Shit was comedy gold.
>>77429618
>I only know who/what that is because of Homestuck
fuck
>>77428758
yeah same here especially after that racing scene in the start of the film.
>Slavery is bad mmkay!
>Us Jews would NEVER practice something like that!
hhhehehehe
>>77428700
He was the film's main antagonist, but he wasn't a villain. "Bad guy" doesn't play into it.
>>77428924
>Just don't let them breed.
But then your kids won't have any slaves.
>>77430657
Well, to be fair, the original story is less about right and wrong.
"God decided he wants it to happen, so it will." is the general tone of the Tanakh.
>>77428732
>actually calling him YHWH
You must enjoy trying to sound smart huh
>>77428749
We are not talking about history, jews were never slaves in egypt,
>>77430693
That's the general tone of most stories from cultures like that. Giants in the playground. Greeks didn't bother applying their morals to Zeus and Apollo raping everything in sight. They're Gods. What can you do?
>Egyptian gods tell you to kill people and make sacrifices
>"BOOO!"
>Hebrew god tells you to kill people and make sacrifices
>"YAAY!"
What went wrong?
>>77430706
Yeah, pretty much what I was trying to say.
There's no "Jews are better than that" in the original story. It's just God being God.
>>77430732
According to Nietszche, Judeo-Christian morality in general
>>77430732
>egyptian god tells you to throw babies into river just because
>doesn't even do anything when guy with a snake rod starts trouble
>hebrew god forgives you of all sins and protects you in time of distress
>actually follows through on his promises
GEE WHAT A CHOICE
>>77429417
Happy Accidents.
It has Vincent D'Onofrio I think
>>77430764
>>hebrew god forgives you of all sins and protects you in time of distress
That's the Christian God, not the Hebrew God. Hebrew God didn't believe in forgiveness.
>>77429575
>Things that don't exist regarding Hebrew slaves in Egypt
>Things that don't exist
>Hebrew slaves
Fixed it for you. We have absolutely zero evidence of any sort regarding a large population of exclusively Jewish slaves and "b-b-but THEY DESTROYED THE RECORDS" doesn't count.
Do you believe in the phantom time hypothesis too?
>>77430764
>egyptian god tells you to throw babies into river just because
That was a political decision and Pharao tells Moses why he did it.
Pls stop worshiping the Demiurge itt
>>77429782
That's the first time I've ever seen DA JOOS used in a pro-Jewish argument tee bee aitch f a m
>>77430795
Anon, you realize the post you're replying to actually agrees with you, right? Read it again. He's saying how absurd such a thing would be.
>>77430805
You may be autistic seeing as you're completely unable to read tremendously unsubtle sarcasm.
>>77428926
Speak of the devil and he shall appear
>>77430850
They made a live action movie of abe's Oddyssey?
>>77430850
Do *I* look like I'm running Egypt right now? Your hit, on the Hebrews, it didn't work, my friend! And now you have my medjai mercenaries going around the city at 24 hours a day! How exactly is that supposed to help me surpass my father?
>>77430764
>Hebrew God
>Forgiving sins
Haw haw haw
>>77430764
>hebrew god
>forgives sins
>protects you
>actually follows through
Read the Old Testament moar.
>>77429265
>>77429324
Anon's, the context makes it pretty clear. Moses does his miracles and Pharoah and the Egyptians are like "holy shit what the fuck? We can't do that! Let his people go!"
And then before he does it God hardens Pharoah's heart so that his greatness may be known (through the plagues)
Of course none of this actually happened and jews were never slaves in egypt, but the fiction itself is pretty fucked up.
Please do remember that YHWH in the old testament is not a god of love and understanding, he's a straight-up god of war.
>>77430977
Actually, he should read the Tanakh.
A lot of the stuff in the Old Testament is edited or extended in the Christian version to make God look less like... Well, vengeful, merciless, devoid of love for any who question him.
>>77431230
>devoid of love for any who question him.
Or just any in general. Poor Job.
>>77431248
And Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies too.
It's just horrible.
>>77428700
>hundreds of children get murdered
>THERE CAN BE MIRACLES, IF YOU BELIEVE
>>77431002
>he's a straight-up god of war.
Is more like a private God of a single community which sees him/it as a decisive weapon that punishes their enemies and love them and only them. Generally, all the ancient gods were depicted as "human" in full megalomania and evil attitude.
They were violent times.
>>77430764
>>hebrew god forgives
Barely, and only after he had an illegitimate child that talked him into being that way. Before that, the Abrahamic god was a-ok with genocide, rape, racism, sacrifice, slavery, infanticide, and cannibalism.
He was always a "par for the course" deity.
Anyone want some lettuce?
>>77430732
>>77431363
This salad dressing tastes funny...
>>77431363
Fuck off, kid.
>>77431390
>>77431398
>you will never ever know what the fuck kind of animal Set is supposed to be
>>77431230
Seriously? I gotta get on that shit. I love me some merciless, jealous gods.
>>77431422
>35% aardvark
>15% donkey
>25% jackal
>25% fuck all
Damn furries.
>>77431944
What if it represents an extinct animal we've never even heard of?
who Age of Mythology here?
>>77431917
Well, to be fair, don't expect the differences to be Lovecraftian, but if memory serves, one big difference is the Book of Job.
At least one version in the Bible ends with Job getting perfect health, and vigour, a replacement family and livestock.
Also, the Tanakh, for all the cruelty and wrath of god, is a lot more philosophical about the whole existence thing. It doesn't try to justify God's actions so much, as ask what point there is in justification to begin with in many places.
(That being said, I'm not Hebrew or a rabbi, so I can't really claim expert knowledge.)
>>77432042
My man!
>>77432055
>My man!
prostagma
>implying Egyptians ever had hebrew slaves
>>77430403
>Wouldn't you think that the jewish slaves would have starved to death by the point that their evil Egyptian overlords started feeling the food shortage?
I think that the Exodus said that the Slaves did suffer from the famine as well.
>>77429303
Deities work differently in the far east, they tend to be far more human in function. In fact humans can become gods in many of those theologies.
>>77428759
In the version, didn't it say the Egyptian gods hardened Pharaoh's heart but then they had to edit it when they decided there was only one God?
>>77432266
>Deities work differently in the far east, they tend to be far more human in function. In fact humans can become gods in many of those theologies.
That's pretty common in most western mythologies too. It's just not a thing in Judeo-Christian ones (although Catholic sainthood is getting there).
>>77428931
>>tfw the Gnostic heresies were all right and OT God isn't actually God
Is there somewhere that I can read on that?
>>77432273
If they were going to do that they might have wanted to edit out the parts where the Pharoah's priests are able to duplicate a couple of Moses' miracles.
>>77432321
>Is there somewhere that I can read on that?
Wikipedia and various scholarly articles. The few religious documents pertaining to the various Gnostic religions themselves are fragmentary or fraudulent, as Catholic and Orthodox authorities were quite zealous and effective at stamping out them and their writings. They have some weird shit though apparently, including an alleged Gospel of Judas (Who was doing Jesus's will by 'betraying' him, and in Gnosticism Jesus is a representative of the true God come to save humanity from the Demiurge/OT God, so Judas is a good guy)
>>77432225
What I mean is, that if the famine was bad enough to dramatically affect the Egyptian people, then how come their slaves got anything whatsoever?
>>77428700
God was the real villain, yeah its pretty obvious
>>77432422
Because there was never a Hebrew slave uprising in Egypt and the story is largely myth.
>>77428700
>Were we actually supposed to think Ramses was the bad guy here?
Not really. It was meant to be tragic.
>>77432445
It's not an uprising if you let God do all the work
>>77428732
>If anything, the "bad guy" is YHWH
We have free will and created that situation ourselves ultimately, had we made better choices none of it would have happened.
>>77432445
Naturally. But what I'm talking about, is called a plothole.
>>77432474
If only Ramses son had wisely excercised his free will to be born to different parents, he'd have lived a long full life instead of being struck down by the Angel of Death to punish his mind-controlled father for not giving in after God forced him to refuse to give in.
>>77432306
>That's pretty common in most western mythologies too. It's just not a thing in Judeo-Christian ones (although Catholic sainthood is getting there).
It's a pretty common thing in all cultures, really: hero-gods, ancestor spirits, animal totems, etc.
>>77431333
No, anon. YHVH was literally a war god. He commanded the hebrews to enter villages in the night, slaughter all able-bodied men, and steal all the fertile women and able-bodied children.
When you realize he was originally part of a pantheon the first few commandments take on a pretty different light.
>>77432531
Also the burning bush thing makes more sense when you realize one of his original spheres was fire.
>>77432273
Yes. Some people rectify this by saying other gods are actually demons.
>>77431333
>>77432531
Didn't he gradually transform from God of War and Fire in a much larger pantheon to national patron of a particular Semitic tribal confederation to dominant god of the Hebrews to only god of the Hebrews via henotheism to only god period in traditional monotheism?
>>77428732
The only real villain is Ramses's father who basically drilled the mindset he had into him.
They did have a civilization built on slavery which generally isn't a good thing.
>>77432639
>They did have a civilization built on slavery which generally isn't a good thing.
Pretty much every civilization in the world then was built on slavery.
>>77432665
No they weren't. Not even Egypt, in real life.
>>77432639
>They did have a civilization built on slavery which generally isn't a good thing.
>The worst for a slave could be working in the mines or quarries. Although they were the master's property, they were treated as part of the family and the women of the house would bring the child slaves up, and were never put to hard work. Slaves in ancient Egypt could also be owners of property, and items unlike modern slavery. They were somewhat independent, also unlike modern slavery; they were allowed to marry not only to themselves, but to non-slaves as well. According to Dunn, "a king's barber gave his own niece as a wife to one of his slaves and a lady allowed her younger brother to marry one of her slaves." There have been a lot of rumors stating that "slaves" built the pyramids, like when Herodotus claimed that it took "100,000 slaves to build the pyramids." However, that has been proven wrong. According to Barbara Watterson, "peasants built the pyramids during the flooding, when they could not work in their lands. In return for their work, they were paid in food." Recently, tombs of the workers in the pyramids were found, if they had been slaves, they would have never been buried honorably. Wrap it all up, there was no such thing as slavery as we know it today in ancient Egypt, but rather, similar to the serfs in the feudal system.
>>77432731
I assumed he meant "widely practiced slavery". Not "it was the cornerstone of their entire economy".
>>77432746
>Wrap it all up, there was no such thing as slavery as we know it today
If one person is owned by another, they're a slave. Let's not warp labels and redefine things to fit our Egyptaboo model.
Suffice it to say, the Egyptians of the time did not practice CHATTEL slavery of a kind seen on Roman Latifundia or with Greek PoWs in mines and quarries.
>>77430192
Well, there are records of a guy named Yeshua in jail at the time.
Which is kind of like having records of a guy named John today.
>>77432749
That would make more sense, though there were still exceptions.
>>77432746
He means in the movie.
>>77428755
>>77428919
I think it was intentional to make sure that Yahweh (a character mostly absent) did not override the concept of Free Will. The movie is mostly about the two brothers, the choices they make, and the consequences of those choices in the face of the power that is Yahweh. Ramses literally cannot win, this is known to the audience throughout (If you somehow don't know the Exodus story, then the fact that one guy is wielding the power of GAWD should clue you in). But he is indoctrinated that he is a god himself, and at first cannot believe that Moses wields a power that is so far above his own. His royal magicians "replicate" Moses "tricks", placating Ramses doubts. And then Moses brings the plagues, and Ramses learns what he's dealing with, but is consumed with anger at Moses. The stanza that mentions the "Hardening Heart" is, I think, the best summary of Ramses character in the movie.
>You who I called brother, how could you have come to hate me so, is this what you wanted? Then let my heart be hardened, and never mind how high the cost may grow
Ramses is at least dimly aware that his kingdom is being attacked by a far greater power than he can match, but because it is Moses who calls down that power, the feeling of betrayal combines with his own sense of pride and he decides to rage at his attacker instead of surrender. I think the phrasing in this stanza amazingly important, in regards to the idea that Yahweh forced him to hang onto the slaves. When he says "Then let my heart be hardened", it implies that it still his decision to allow it to happen, and he decides "Fuck it, you've already destroyed half my kingdom. Fuck you Moses"
>>77432800
>though there were still exceptions.
There always are. That's why I used the qualifier "Pretty much"..
>>77432812
Free Will is all fine and good but Ramses is pretty much the only one that gets to exercise it there. All the other Egyptians are just Ramses' and God's pawns.
>>77432581
Like most gods of that time, he was a conglomeration of other, earlier gods mashed together.
The Hebrew god is a combination of the god of Abraham, which was a mountain/volcano god hence all the fire and that business on Mt. Sinai. Like has been mentioned already, this god then merged with the Hebrew war god.
He was then later merged with the chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon, El who himself may have been borrowed from the earlier Sumerian wind god Enlil, who granted kingship. This is where that whole 'divine right of kings' comes from.
El and Enlil were also associated with breath, including the breath of life. Being air gods they were as invisible as the air itself, and treated as if they could be anywhere and eventually as if theye were everywhere. All these traits were picked up by Yahweh and many more Babylonian and Sumerian myths and legends were adapted and form a large part of the book of Genesis. Later books of the Old Testament were derived from the sources such as the Sumerian King List and even stories of historical figures such as Hammurabi and Sargon, who were combined into the figure of Moses.
>>77432831
My argument wasn't that Yahweh or Ramses or Moses aren't all colossal dickbags.
I'm just saying that the story, especially as presented in the Prince of Egypt, doesn't work if Yahweh can be like "lol nah brah I ain't lettin' you give up". And so the concept of Free Will, in the story, cannot be overriden by MAGICAL CLOUD MAN and that its a much better story for it.
Also, wouldn't the Free Will of someone in Ramses position always be far more influential? I have the Free Will to eat an apple, but if God wants to bomb me from the sky with a billion apples because my President won't grow oranges, well, I can't Free Will my way out of it.
>>77432965
does the stone at the top of the pyramid think he's more important than the ones at the base
>>77433021
Usually
>>77432474
Except the passages in the bible say the lord hardened the pharaoh's heart. So God basically MADE Ramses be an asshole. Free will wasn't involved.
Christianity's notion of free will is kind of fucked anyway ("I have this gun to your head and will shoot you unless you do exactly what I say...your choice though"), but it's especially fucked in the petty, vengeful old testament
You know, getting away from the "Hardened heart" discussion that seems to take over literally every single Prince of Egypt thread ever.
There's one decision made in Prince of Egypt I have never really understood, and that's the decision to make Pharaoh's magicians charlatans.
I mean it's not like magic isn't real in the bible nor do the relevant passages even hint that the Egyptian magicians are using tricks.
>>77433250
I thought these guys were comic relief, or something. I really really enjoyed their snake performance as a kid, although I had fascination with snakes in general.
They do seem to exist only to dissuade Ramses's belief of Moses's powers, particularly at the blood-river scene. Later on, Ramses gets rid of the magicians when the situation becomes much more dire. From then on it was more clear that his decisions/actions were of his own will ( or God's will to harden his heart).
>>77433250
The entire tone of the movie is extremely modern, down to the emotional, core of the film, the three families's dynamic. (Moses and siblings, Moses and Pharao, Moses and big beard guy).
It shouldn't come as a surprise with how modern they made everything, that they decided to use the church's current stance on magic.
Which effectively is "It's not a thing unless god says so."
>>77433250
>There's one decision made in Prince of Egypt I have never really understood, and that's the decision to make Pharaoh's magicians charlatans.
That was probably because the only real god in the movie is God. If this movies was somehow made at the time of the Exodus, then the Egyptin gods would have been just as real but unable to stop God. A few millenia later, the priests would have been using demonic powers. Today, it's all just a ruse.
Except for God, of course.
In this movie, yes he was the bad guy, but I'm pretty sure in the actual religious mythology he was being forced into not releasing the slaves as a test for Moses.
One thing to consider though is that the mistreatment of Egyptian slaves is a myth. They were actually treated well because they were seen as a valuable resource. You cannot break a man's back and expect him to build a pyramid. In fact, it is on historical record that Egyptian slaves started the very first workers strike in history and they peacefully won this strike.
>>77433250
It's also hard to fake their teleportation trick they did during the "Playing With The Big Boys" song.
>>77433415
>You cannot break a man's back and expect him to build a pyramid.
Slaves never worked on the pyramids. The pyramid workers were highly skilled craftsman.
>>77432954
A single god figuratively kills and absorb the essence and power of other deities, becoming omnipotent. Sounds kick ass
