>Writes groundbreaking epic about a new generation of heroes ruining the world the heroes they exemplified
>twenty years later he's writing the diversity melodrama avengers
Bravo Waid
>Kingdom Come
>groundbreaking
I bet you think Nirvana's one of the greatest rock bands.
>>77366037
Vedder pls
>"'y'know what Joker probably shouldn't be alive."
>ruined
Waid was always shit.
If you actually break down Kingdom Come to what it says, it's a pretty poorly written and contradictory mess.
A villain like Magog has his day in court, literally volunteering to his own arrest and trial for killing the Joker. Superman, the good guy, threatens to murder the whole UN to get out of the consequences of his crimes.
>Kingdom come
>Groundbreaking
That shit was a 7/10 at best
Clusterfuck of characters.
>>77366016
How is KC groundbreaking?
It's easily one of the most overrated comic books of all time
>>77366037
>>77366069
>>77366092
>>77366095
>>77366099
What's your beef?
Kingdom come's story is really bad.
The art is great though, although it does make wonder woman look unattractive.
>>77366016
>bland and generic plot
>static art depicting pensioners cosplaying as superheroes, but praise dbecause it has rich and warm colors
talk about overrated comics
ITT butthurt Marvels fans
>>77366133
It's not a bad story, it's just one of the greatest. Certainly not groundbreaking. Image as a whole from back in the day has more left over residue on the current comics scene that KC does. KC just gets its reputation because of Ross's art and it's one of those "graphic novels" that normies can read without feeling like geeks/manchildren.
>>77366138
I don't like Ross's comics art. His work is far too static for a medium that thrives on fluidity.
>>77366263
>Image
Hi ImageShill! Waiting for tomorrow's Win-O?
>>77366133
I liked it, art even more. Some things annoyed me, like lack of couple of characters and Dick's daughter of all people using her powers like every other young hero.
>>77366037
Well they were the last one that mattered desu
>>77366133
bad art and retarded plot.
not at all groundbreaking since stuff like Gruenwald's SS and Watchmen predate it.
>>77366229
>bland and generic plot
Fedora
>>77366321
>not DEEP enough for me
>>77366335
So, any critique of your favorite comic means we're either shills or neckbeards?
>>77366335
Explain how KC is groundbreaking then, the burden of proof is on you.
>>77366321
Nigga squadron supreme was even more retarded
>lets have the SS take over the world and make a utopian society because they know what's best for us
>oh wait lol all these heroes have questionable ethics
>just fuck our shit up faM
>>77366370
We're not talking about quality though, we're talking about innovation.
>>77366069
>/co/ is this illiterate
>>77366400
Wasn't it Ross who came up with the basic premise and plot and Waid was pretty much only adding certain aspects to the story? Serious question.
>>77366370
More like "hurr, the Justice League are fascists!"
>>77366308
Old guy here.
No they weren't, kid. You've been lied to about them just like you've been lied to about Tupac being "the greatest MC of all time". Nirvana were a joke in their day. Over 75% of their sales came after Cobain's death. The whole grunge fad was the emo of its day, nothing more. Grow the fuck up.
>>77366365
It's one of the very few good superman stories in existence
Also anyone who bitches about the art is clearly a retard because it's an industry/culture commentary. The fights are symbolic, just the actual punching isn't important
>>77366440
None of that speaks to innovation. Quality, yes, innovation, no.
>>77366433
What do you listen to grandad? Grand Funk or some shit?
Nirvana highlighted the biggest Reading festival of the decade and saved the Sub Pop label. Touch & Go records would probably have collapsed if not for them.
It's like Action Comics #775; those kids who grew up in the 90s are angry at classic DC superheroes defeating GRIMDARK X-TREEEEEEME "superheroes."
Give me an example of something that happened because of Kingdom Come that wouldn't have happened otherwise or a new idea the story it presented. Kirby was doing metacommentaries over twenty years before KC was published, that's not something new to comics.
>>77366453
Innovation isn't necessary. It's trying to tell a cautionary tale, not reinvent the wheel.
>>77366501
You were the one who said it was groundbreaking and thus far haven't brought up any aspects of the story that live up to that claim.
>>77366487
I liked Pearl Jam better.
>>77366487
>Reading festival
Kid, no one gives a shit about your britbong bullshit.
>>77366487
Wait, are you actually saying that you know more about that era of music than somebody that was actually there?
>this is what /mu/ actually believes
>>77366489
The vast majority of anons are millennials. KC was one of the first books I ever read, if there's anyone who should be nostalgic for it it'd be me.
>>77366493
Steve Darnall's career
Justice Society of America vol. 3
>>77366433
>Nirvana was a joke in their day
Probably to people in college or full grown adults. They were crazy over with middle school kids, at least where I went to school.
Why do people just make shit up about things? Nirvana was influential. Period.
>>77366487
Neutral Milk Hotel and occasionally Neutral Milk Hotel mashups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhjG70-vVrU
>>77366528
>>77366534
>>77366551
Whatever faggots. Everything that can be said about the 90s has been written by the only people who matter. Your barely sober recollections are not only just wrong, but most likely biased by some bullshit politics your teenage selves convinced you were legitimate.
>>77366424
Yeah, Ross came up with the story. James Robinson was supposed to script it but he declined so DC got Waid to do (some of) the scripting.
>>77366400
But that's wrong.
>>77366138
I disagree. I think MILFWoman is one of the best depictions of her.
>>77366662
>>77366662
Nirvana infuenced only the pop industry and the result was bands like Nickelback.
The 90's had more influential musicians and producers that actually offered more to music itself, rather than the music industry.
>>77366551
I was actually there, too, and my belief differs from that guy. Believe it or not, living an event isn't necessarily good for objective recall, because it's colored by your perceptions and biases. I suspect this is the case here. Nirvana are recognized across the board by numerous musical publications and individuals in the music industry as being tremendously influential in their era. And while "75% of their sales came after Cobain's death" (a ridiculous figure, mind you, given that Cobain had now been dead for about 3x longer than Nirvana was a band), that is not to say that they weren't both commercially and critically successful while they were together (they were).
Telling someone to "grow up" when you're an oldfag that still tries to throw shade at popular things is amazingly ironic. Two of the most important aspects of "growing up" are recognizing when your own perspectives are coloring your bias and not caring about what brings other people joy. Well adjusted people don't give a shit about your tastes, they care about whether or not you're pleasant to be around.
>>77366520
It's the first comic to dissect the DC universe that manages to highlight the downsides of a superhero world without demonizing the superheroes.
Everything Moore and Ennis have written say that capes are morally twisted individuals who will always have poor character no matter what. That capes are shitty people who contribute to a fucked up world and that's that.
Kingdom Come has capes contributing to a fucked up world but they are of good character, they just don't know how to handle things well. They're unfamiliar and trying to adapt to a new modern world quickly before things get even worse, but they're not demonized (not the original justice league anyway).
What other book before 1996 borrowed from Watchmen but still gave the heroes the benefit of the doubt?
>>77366400
Nothing in that post addressed the moral quandaries presented in KC of facing up the the consequences of ones actions, something Magog does while Superman doesn't.
Why is Mgog, the anti-hero "without context" and whose goals are entirely "arbitrary" capable of making a statement of doing harm (ie murdering the Joker) but facing all legal and moral ramifications of that act, while Superman's character arc is retiring, coming back as a supervillain and retiring again into domestic bliss, while Batman runs a hospital taking care of all the people whose lives Superman ruined?
>>77366433
>>77366487
>>77366551
>>77366765
>being this old
>still visiting 4chan
>>77366790
>Everything Moore and Ennis have written say that capes are morally twisted individuals who will always have poor character no matter what.
how does this apply to Moore's Superman?
>>77366763
So? Nirvana was the last time people ever gave a shit about rock music. It's been dead since 2005.
>>77366797
Sup 20-something still clinging to childhood bullshit
How's that girlfriend thing coming along?
>>77366790
I think Moore and Ennis are more under the notion that Power is a corruptive force and a good majority of people can't handle which is to say that there are people who can.
>>77366797
>Being young
>Visiting 4chan
Wasting the prime times faggot
>>77366844
I was about to make you the same question, old man.
>>77366037
It is one of the greatest rock bands of all time, whether you like it or not.
>>77366824
not really, there are bands like Arctic Monkeys that are as successful as Nirvana were and they didn't have to commit suicide to achieve that.
But my point that Nirvana only influenced the market still stands
Kingdom Come is ridiculously overrated, as is Mark Waid in general.
He's barely above mediocre at best
I think KC fucked up cape world is the only right way to do an shared universe. It's a setting that's way more interesting than our world+superheroes setting comics normally have.
>>77366933
>>77366950
Don't interrupt the /mu/ thread, please.
Nirvana is good for an entry level band. But if you're into music and knowledgable you know there are a lot of better stuff to listen to, even obscure ones.
>>77366016
Haha, never thought of it until now. What a fucking hypocrite.
>>77366765
>someone on /co/ has a functioning brain
Who would have believed?
>>77367014
>someone on /co/ has a functioning brain because he posted copypasta
Who would have believed?
>>77366919
>Arctic Monkeys
Top kek
>>77367022
>paragraphs=copypasta
Okay bruv
>>77367032
i didn't say i listen to them, i said they're as popular, which is undeniable.
>>77366424
Yes, that's why it's shit. Characters weren't well written while others like GL or Flash don't even have one line of dialogue. Waid is a hack.
ITT:/lit/ and /mu/talk about comic books
>>77366433
Pac is the greatest though, or at least the most worthy of that title. He's the worldwide consensus GOAT and has had the most impact and visibility in the culture. 3 classic albums as well.
>>77367100
And unsurprisingly it's going better than when /co/ talks about comics.
>>77367106
As a rapper Tupac was incredibly basic.
>>77367100
But they're not talking about comic books at all
Magog did nothing wrong.
>>77367106
Pac was one of the most noteworthy because of his gang status.
Amongst rappers , Big L was the one who was acclaimed by everyone
Kingdom come was not one of the greatest for its time, but in age of squirrel girl, ms. Marvel, and batgirl it's obviously a masterpiece in hindsight
>>77367179
Big L died tragically before his time, but he doesn't belong in any GOAT discussions.
>>77367121
No he isn't, stop thinking technicality is the only aspect of rapping. Pac was one of the most human and multidimensional rappers. He knew how to make records that connected with all kinds of people, thanks to his versatility and charisma. A basic rapper is someone like Drake who can never see from any perspective but his own.
>>77367354
No, Drake is just straight up shit and hardly a rapper. You best shut your mouth, you busta.
>>77366792
You're projecting a ton of shit onto that pic that isn't in there. The dude who wrote that explanation of KC was just saying that it's about characters created by the Golden/Silver Age era industry vs. characters created by the Liefeld era industry and showing the contrast between how the industry use to work vs. how it did at the time. He didn't say anything about the actual story itself, just what the basic premise represented.
>>77367415
He raps so he counts nigga
>>77366765
>I was actually there
Being in diapers doesn't count.
>>77366440
>It's one of the very few good superman stories in existence
>>77366824
Green Day was several times bigger than Nirvana. Many other guitar driven bands of the last 20 years have been bigger than Nirvana. Whole point of this ridiculous "debate" you guys are having is that Nirvana weren't as big of a deal as the media tells you.
>>77367106
Afrika Bambaataa was easily the most talented MC in history. N-O-B-O-D-Y called Tupac the GOAT until AFTER he died.
>>77367536
Niggas didn't care about based AB because he didn't care about gang shit.
>>77367536
You got to be shitting me homie. Do you think Buddy Holly was the most talented guitarist in history? Bambaataa was more respected for his DJing and influence anyway, not his rap skill.
Also the most gifted rapper ever is Nas.
Nothing hypocrite if you see it with leftist googles.
Magog was advocating violence because that was what he did as >>77366400 says, (and as >>77366792 refutes).
He was show in a negative light because he wanted to do super heroing in a different manner than the old guard.
Kamala little speech about "being better than what the old generation gives them credit for" ties to this since despite them being different and younger (And All New! God I hate this moniker you don't get to label something all new with legacy Heroes, Marvel) they still do super heroing like the old ways.
So Waid is consistent with his speech from KC even if you hate KC or not.
>>77367492
>forgetting Nirvana prior to 1991
>forgetting the bad was a catalyst for the exposure of other cool bands like Tad, Mudhoney and Soundgarden
>>77367633
>Kamala little speech about "being better than what the old generation gives them credit for"
Yeah because why focus on your own generation's faults of being entitled and lazy when you can just blame boomers like every butthurt liberal and their cats?
>>77366133
Poor characterization of Superman, a story hinging on him giving up is off to a bad start.
I don't think it's bad but calling it groundbreaking when it comes after Watchmen, Miracleman, Zenith and Squadron Supreme marks you as a high level causal
>>77366810
Or Ennis' for that matter? Ennis also writes Kyle and Wally as good people, if not weird.
>>77367666
Like I said, leftist googles.
>>77366629
why is that album a meme?
I actually really like it despite it being pretty whiny and basic
>>77367730
it's a meme because plebs hate it and don't understand the genius behind it
>>77367106
Tupac was a shit lyricist and had shit flow. He does not belong to any great list.
>>77366037
They are, and yes, Kingdom Come was a ground breaking work. It pioneered both art and redesign to such a level that DC twenty years later was still using it on a conceptual level.
>>77366016
He's old and alienated everyone. He ruined the sequel that he was supposed to do with Ross and Ha. Instead he wrote the Kingdom.
>>77366263
Image books from the 90's are reviled by most. Your definition of groundbreaking is inherently false. Groundbreaking can be conservative. By reimagining Silver and Bronze age heroes in a respectful manner the book was a proof of concept for later series like Justice League, Wonder Woman, Superman, JSA, Shazam, and Damien Wayne.
>>77367730
Because it was baneposting before baneposting
>take album only 10 people have ever heard of in their lives
>spam LYRICS IN CAPSLOCK from the album in threads every day
>repeat until this forced meme becomes part of the board culture simply through repitition
>>77366244
I'm a Dcfag all the way. I just like actually good comics, like Moore's swamp thing run
>>77366016
Is it groundbreaking? Hell no. Is it a well told story with good art? Hell yes. Is there problems with it? Oh god yes. But at the end of the day you got to ask yourself, is this one comic you would read agian and does it have a lasting impact?
>>77370737
>five hougs lateg
>>77366016
le 90s vs the the classic superheroes analogy makes you stop caring about the actual story
Why didn't someone started to storytime this baby yet?
Modern Supes would have just necksnappered the Parasite and avoided this whole mess.
Could we wait for a *single* fucking issue of Waid's Avengers to come out before we shit on it at least please ffs?
>>77366133
looking back i see it as taking watchmen and throwing dc heroes in it adding art by alex ross
>a fine homage to alan moore's story but hardly original
>>77371171
>If I post an image making fun of a fat girl no one will think I am really from tumblr
>>77371087
Go right ahead, anon. Thanks for offering.
>>77371124
>the Superman who wouldn't kill
Which was...?
>>77367666
You mean besides the fact the next line has her telling the kids they need to make an effort too and work hard? that if they just give up they'll be proving everyone right?
Seriously did everyone just read that half panel and not give a fuck about context?
>>77366263
>Image as a whole from back in the day has more left over residue on the current comics scene
Yeah, and it's a fucking BAD thing.
>>77371834
Why read comics when you can be upset by them?
Theres a time to kill and a time to heal, anything in extremes is bad, including refusing to kill under any circumstances.
![3Gduepif0T1UGY8H4xMDoxOjBrO-I4W8[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/H5lGrwH.jpg "3Gduepif0T1UGY8H4xMDoxOjBrO-I4W8[1].jpg")
>>77367106
I've always considered Humpty Hump the greatest rapped of any generation.
>>77371124
Superman killing Zod = Good
Superman not saving his dad = Retarded
Superman destroying artificial wombs while quipping "Krypton had it's chance" = Psychotic
>>77366321
>bad art
>>77371124
>>77372081
>Ladderbro at it again
>>77366880
>I was about to make you the same question, old man.
>make you the same question
>make you
Well you still write like a child, so...
>>77366792
But Superman did face up to the consequences. He was suspicious of the gulag from the beginning, and when things boiled over he went as fast as he could to counteract the crisis before it could get out of hand. The story insinuates that he could have stopped the riot had he not been side-swiped by Captain Marvel.
If anyone failed to face the consequences of their actions, it was Wonder Woman. She decreed to rule over rogue capes with an iron fist. She rolled up to the gulag ready to rumble, and she and her followers shared a big responsibility in forcing the UN's hand to drop the nukes. Then, after the dust clears, her exile from Paradise island is lifter and everyone seems completely ignorant to the fact that she stoked the flames of war while Batman and Superman tried to smother them.
Also, she kills Von Bach, making her the only big name hero to kill in the story.
>>77372099
Yes Alex Ross is awful
>>77374786
>>77374938
His art is static and he only knows how to do one angle, from below mimicking a child looking up at their parents.
His technical skills are amazing, so is are his abilities as his own colorist, but for a comic artist he's terrible. he should stick to covers
