I'm worried /co/, Is Disney starting to damage the animation industry.
>highest grossing films
>people only see them because of the Disney brand
>other animation studios don't get any views or buzz
>people don't seem to be talking about How To Train Your Dragon 2 but they're still talking about Big Hero 6
> Oscars are corrupt and bias and everybody seems to accept that
> there are people that actually think Frozen is the best animated movie of 2010s
(all of this includes pixar, people always mix up the two)
not a troll, this is honestly how I feel, am I overreacting?
>Is Disney starting to damage the animation industry.
Welcome to fucking 1940, bud.
>I'm worried /co/, Disney is strangling all creative industries
There you go.
>>71536007
I don't know why the hell now Disney fears so much the G rating for their animated features.
>>71536007
>(all of this includes pixar, people always mix up the two)
Disney owns Pixar. You talk about one, you talk about the other.
>>71536084
people nowadays think it's for really little kids only and fewer children/teenagers are interested in seeing them
it's been a thing for a while now, even though Disney only really started ensuring their movies got higher ratings in the last decade or so
>>71536007
They're damaging the comic industry too
>>71536007
>starting
Am I in 1995 again?
Frozen IS the best animated movie of the 2010's.
>>71536143
>Disney only really started ensuring their movies got higher ratings in the last decade or so
Since Tangled, to be exact. Also, I'm sure that people didn't give a F about the G rating when they they watched Toy Story 3 in theaters. TBF, they still keep the G ratings for sequels to other feature films that were originally rated G and for their Disneynature series.
>>71536007
>>highest grossing films
>>people only see them because of the Disney brand
It's funny how until, like, Tangled, maybe PotF, this wasn't a thing for a long-ass time. Between Lilo and Stitch and the before-mentioned movies, Disney was basically cancer.
>>71536353
How can nature documentaries be rated g? Nature is brutal as fuck.
>>71536459
It seems to be the case. Maybe they got the G rating for being documentaries. In Argentina that happens a lot. Even in cases like this one: https://youtu.be/ZXm7536T6a4?t=1m50s
pixar hasn't released a great film in 4 years
>>71536212
explain?
>>71536459
Even just judging by the trailers, Disney's nature docs seem to be extra watered down and simplified so that they can market them to "whole family" audiences and have parents bring their little kids to them.
>>71536022
>starting to damage the animation industry
>an industry which practically doesn't even fucking exist yet
>>71538008
And Disney thoroughly tainted the young medium (which had existed for a decade at that point). We were lucky that gems like the vastly superior Warner Bros. shorts were made at all.
>>71536007
>starting
people wouldn't see animation as solely for kids if walt disney hadn't ruined its reputation in america. compare japan, they made animations for whothefuckever.
>>71536353
nah, since shrek set a new bar
>>71538290
are people coming out of that mindset of thinking?
>>71536459
They have something called editing.
>>71536007
Disney has been ruining the animation industry since the beginning. It's thanks to them that animation is seen as Kiddy Shit. When so many gens of people grow up with Disney they think that animation by default should ONLY be what Disney craps out like inoffensive politically correct drivel. Case in point, look at the theatrical release of Princess Mononoke, so many moronic parents thought it would be safe cause "animated" but they were pissed when they saw the violence in the film.
Didn't they do the same thing back in the 90's?
>>71538891
Blame America's Puritan roots
>>71538766
Not really no.
I'm more concerned with how their recent push to make live-action versions of their famous animated films gives off a message that the animated versions are somehow less legitimate
Even though the new Dumbo and The Jungle Book will be mostly animated movies anyway, but that's realistic looking so we call it visual effects, even though it's barely different from being a cartoon
>>71538989
It wasn't America's religious nothing, it was America being nurtured for DECADES by the House of Mouse that watered down even the fairy tales they adapted into being "family friendly." And please spare me the whole "But Disney has done dark stuff!" yeah? Well only as a side effect because the original source is much darker to the point there's no choice but to let dark themes slip in (like Hunchback of Notredame).
Disney knows that pussy pansy Americans have grown up and associated animation ONLY with their work and because of this they've created an eternal loop of animation being censored garbage. I respect WB more because they fund those DVD movies like Batman Under the Red Hood outside of also delivering family friendly entertainment (Looney Tunes in recent years). But Disney? Stick to the same old generic formula.
Even now just thinking about that retarded "Destroy! Destroy! Destroy!" scene from Big Hero 6 pisses me off. HTTYD2 may not have been that great, but it definitively tried more to impress audiences.
I've been thinking over the last few months, and I agree with ya, OP
>>71536302
That isn't Song of the Sea
>>71539230
And even then, the dark stuff was only PG
>>71536007
Chee, Op. You forgot to mention that they bought up Marvel and Star Wars, too.
>>71539347
Not that it'd stop /co/ from worshipping Marvel at the altar of Avengers.
>>71538891
>>71539230
Disney tried to get animation regarded as a legitimate art form up until Fantasia bombed. That project was his magnum opus and he had all kinds of hopes for it, only for the public to reject it outright. Then Dumbo - an inoffensive, family-orientated film they made as cheaply as possible to get some money in the bank - was welcomed with open arms.
Disney just saw the writing on the wall, shrugged and said "We're going to make family-orientated films from now on; it's where the money is". The only reason we got a film like Bambi before the Golden Age was out was simply due to Bambi being far too along in production to justify axing.
>>71536445
Disney goes in waves, but is always constant.
Studios rise and fall in between its revivals
>>71536007
Sad thing is it looks like we're gonna have to get used to it. Every Oscars the award will either go to Disney or Pixar - no other animation company need apply.
I'm already waiting for the inevitable when HTTYD3 loses its last chance at an Oscar to Frozen 2 or whatever drivel Disney pushes out that year.
But what annoys me most are the fans. Holy shit. It's bad enough Disney managed to soil animation so that people feel like to be good animated films have to be kid-friendly (which is why I think HTTYD2 lost the Oscar- it was TOO dark), but on top of that Disney/Pixar fans are some of the most obnoxious people on the planet. They literally obsess over everything from these companies and act so smug like Disney is the only animation company that matters.
There needs to be a revolution in the American animation industry, otherwise the house of mouse will continue to overshadow every other animation studio.
>>71539443
That's fucking depressing.
>>71538008
Wow, Disney did a better job at ruining the competition than I thought.
>>71536445
Disney Studios lost creative direction after their Renaissance period (starting with the Little Mermaid and petering out around Tarzan at the latest) fizzled out. Tangled seem to give them more momentum as a studio again.
Having said that I found both Tangled and Frozen to be fairly underwhelming films, albeit for different reasons. So I'm not really sold on Disney having entirely "got their groove back". But then when Frozen's something like the fifth highest grossing film EVER it makes me concerned.
>>71539443
The problem lies with Disney non the less becaus they sparked or got the ball rolling on the first impression of the medium of animation. And they presented it as sing alongs family friendly crap to Westerners.
Japanese also took inspiration from Disney's work BUT they never omitted how harsh and horrible some story themes can be. So Japan's early creations for animation did not sugar coat things like violence. This is why their culture sees no problems if a character in a kid's show aims a gun and shoots someone to death with it (like in Togashi's HxH).
That first impression is highly important and Disney fumbled it up eternally. Japan on the other hand was rewarded much more so than Westerners in the long run, but not censoring things like alcohol, smoking, violence, etc in their animation and even doing series with ongoing plots early in their history they've ensured the option of "dialing things down" should they choose it.
In America it's the opposite, you do NOT want to ever push the envelope and rock the boat because if you go past G/PG rating you are asking for controversy in animation.
To the Japanese adult (Seinen), Shounen, Shoujo, etc is open for business because they approached animation differently. To them its just a medium, a medium that can have multiple demographics. To Westerners animation is kids stuff and never allowed to be more....until The Simpsons and let's be frank we're now stuck on the "adult" cartoons must be like The Simpsons loophole where you NEED crass content like nudity, a couple of mandatory swear words, etc to prove just how "adult" it is.
Western animation is a mess.
>>71538891
Animation is Kiddy Shit. It's just you and the other manchild who can't accept that.
>>71539694
>Animation is Kiddy Shit.
Why?
>>71539622
Very much so. A number of factors came together to leave the animation medium where it is and, unfortunately, one of them was Dumbo.
I'll honestly be surprised if it EVER manages to climb out of the hole it's been thrown into. The 90s was the perfect time for that to happen, but for whatever reason it just didn't.
>>71539763
>Don't say I didn't warn ya!
>>71538766
Only some college aged people really it seems. Maybe eventually something will happen.
>>71536007
except Frozen IS the best animated movie of the 2010s
>>71539692
I believe you.
>>71536445
PotF was practically a flop by Disney standards.
>>71539692
>The problem lies with Disney non the less becaus they sparked or got the ball rolling on the first impression of the medium of animation. And they presented it as sing alongs family friendly crap to Westerners.
Snow White wasn't designed as a cynical "family friendly" work. It was simply designed as a movie. They weren't trying to make something in the vein of a Silly Symphony short, they wanted to make a movie with proper dramatic weight. You're looking at it without context. Yeah, it seems pretty toothless NOW, but it wasn't in the 30s.
It was also cast in the mould of a musical because those were riding high in the 30s.
The seed of cynicism was honestly planted around Dumbo's success versus Fantasia's failure. After the second world war was over their big comeback number was Cinderella and THAT's where things are definitely set in stone.
>>71539692
>but not censoring things like alcohol, smoking, violence, etc in their animation
Looney Tunes had all of the above.
>>71539743
America can't handle adult themes. Just adding a one off gay joke at the very end in Paranorman created a shitstorm.
>>71538766
They have been since the forties. There was a concerted effort that got some mainstream attention in the 70s and early 80s and another shot in the 90s, it's not a new thing.
>>71539960
But what does that have to do with the merit of animation as an art form?
>>71539692
yeah, compared to Japan, sex is pretty much the only thing that wouldn't have flown regardless of Disney because Western morals
Everything else was on Disney
>>71539778
Go away, John K. You are no better.
>>71539692
Is HxH really considered to be for kids in Japan? I remember it having some particularly brutal death scenes. Admittedly I have only watched the remake, so I don't know what the original was like.
Bakshi was going against the grain, for that I respect him
Don't like his art styles though.
>>71539692
The western market is a mess, I grant you, but Japan has its own problems. You're still considered an oddball if you're an adult who likes animation over there. Yes, even stuff like GitS.
By contrast, they're all rather chill about manga.
>>71536007
You realized this just now?
>>71540008
Fuck Paramount for ruining Cool World
>>71536302
If this is true, then this decade is doomed.
>>71539988
>give creative control back to cartoonists
>take cartoons off of tv and put them back into the theaters
>learn solid drawing fundamentals and animation principles
>take inspiration from real life, rather than other cartoons
He sounds about 100% correct, imo.
>>71539977
If America can't handle that, then companies will decide use kiddie shit for animation, forever. It will never improve it will just stagnate like it is now.
Thanks, Walt Disney.
>starting
Either way, you just have toaccept it
One problem with getting rid of the "only for kids" stigma is that people want it to happen all at once. This leads to "adult" cartoons like Fritz the Cat and Cool World, which only succeed in driving people away from the idea by conflating "mature" with excessive swearing, violence and sex. It comes off as crass. When instead the change should be an organic, natural one to demonstrate that animation is a creative medium and not a single genre.
I have hope for the future that this will indeed happen within my lifetime.
>>71540077
Too bad he's a old loon that got ran out of the animation industry. Also His ugly art and dark "humor" was never good.
>>71540199
But what does any of that have to do with
>>71540077
>>71540140
We need to start pushing the envelope again like we were around the 90s.
>Batman: TAS
>Gargoyles
>Beast Wars/Machines
>The Maxx
I honestly thought A:TLA might have kicked off another TV animation renaissance for a while, but then all the good shows got cancelled in short order.
>>71540233
Maybe we should focus on how to properly draw and animate again before we worry about making more dark & edgy animation.
>>71538766
No, they are not.
No in Argentina, not in the US, not in the western world. Specially in the US.
In fact us right here are the oldest people around who care about cartoons as a serious medium. The only way this situation would be solved is having /co/mrades as Disney and the TV publishing companies' top dogs AND having them willing to waste millions making good non-children animations for years just to make people accept animation can be adult audiences.
Then and only then that notion would be lifted and adult animation would get a real chance here.
I myself get annoyed that everything must have a happy Disney ending
Cause I just saw leafie hen in the wild and that'd fucking blows a lot of movies out of the water
>>71536353
>Don't give a F
Fuck just say it anon
I think we have an underage ban here
>>71536133
Yeah, and Pepsi owns Quaker Oats. Doesn't mean I'm eating a bowl of instant cola every morning.
>>71540140
It sucks that it's the only two types of cartoons, kid shit and "adult" sitcoms. You are right, cartoons should not have the need to use excessive swearing, sex, and violence to prove that kind of thing. The west has no company that will support that kind of thing and because of that people are in such a dryspell for adult animation that they claim that Rick and Morty is something great when it's really okay at best. The only cartoon that does play off the edgy stuff well is The Venture Bros.
>>71540219
It doesn't. But no one is gonna listen to those ideas when they have a bad history and reputation. That's just the way the world works.
It's even more depressing having it all, then loosing it.
I'm an animator who started producing animations and putting them on youtube in 2010. By the humor/spread i started gaining a lot of views.
Because of this i was able to produce 1-2 videos a month (sometimes less), and the money was amazing. I was earning 3-5 thousand dollars a month, and happily doing what i loved.
Then this all changed in 2012. Because of that retarded replygirl spam crap youtube decided to change their alogrythm completely and instead reward videos that were 10 minutes or longer and uploaded regularly (we're talking once a day or more).
This resulted in a complete nose dive in CPM/linking of animations everywhere on youtube as its impossible for animator to produce that many animations that fast. What instead happened was letsplays/vlogs came to the front of the site and completely took over.
For a while i attempted to make enough videos to keep up, but it was a pointless task. Despite getting 2-4 million views a month, my earnings are now under $900 a month (and sometimes less, like 450 in january).
In an effort to kill replygirl, youtube pretty much killed off the animation industry that was just taking off.
At this point i had to go back to working as producing animation just doesn't pay enough for bills due to the impossible for animator algorithm system, it really sucks. I'll probably do a few animations a year if i can, but its tempting to just quit alltogether now.
If you wanna read more on it:
http://teneightymagazine.com/2015/04/23/save-animation-how-watch-time-is-endangering-youtube-animators/
>>71540428
I just think anon was making a silly pun on the ratings system. But I could be wrong.
>>71539941
Yeah that's why a bunch of Looney toons are censored now
Sad to see it happen to such good cartoons
>>71540477
>and because of that people are in such a dryspell for adult animation that they claim that Rick and Morty is something great when it's really okay at best.
This is also why you have people getting far too obsessed with emotional moments like the stuff in Steven Universe. They need an animated outlet for these emotions and latch onto the best candidate they can find.
>"It's not just a kid's show!"
Yes, it is. It IS a children's show. It is literally made for children. So is Batman:TAS and likely every other cartoon you enjoy. That doesn't mean they can't have dramatic weight or emotional impact, but goddamn these shows are not substitutes for what could be genuine "adult" animation.
>>71540233
Action cartoons are dead unless you count those shitty marvel toons and even then they add "humor" and episodic nonsense.
It's sad that the last action show we had was fucking goddamn Korra.
>>71540545
that really sucks, anon
>>71540545
Patreon my friend that is where the animators are going
I've got to ask, if we can't make good cartoons anymore, what makes you think we can make good action/dramatic animation?
>>71540609
I believe the only Looney Tunes to be censored are stuff involving blackface. And even then that's only concerning reruns, since WB released all of THOSE cartoons on DVD.
You still get reruns of old Looney Tunes involving smoking cigars and shotguns to the fact etc.
>>71540688
Yea man, i was really hyped for all the new animators that would come out of it. But youtube is rewarding quantity, not quality. I really really hate letsplays. REALLY.
>>71540699
If it weren't for patreon i'd be homeless right now, its a big help.
>>71540658
>Action cartoons are dead unless you count those shitty marvel toons and even then they add "humor" and episodic nonsense.
I don't. The shows that leapt to mind were Motorcity, Sym-Bionic Titan, EMH and Young Justice.
Don't talk to be about the state of Marvel's TV animation department. Just don't.
>>71536445
PotF?
>>71539941
really painful considering these are considered 'kids cartoons' now...they were meant for adults! filmed in front of adult movies!
>>71540773
Really, they were meant for everyone.
My point was, Disney hurt animation, but it was alright when we had the WB shorts to balance it out.
I blame (post-Flintstones) Hanna-Barbera/Filmation/etc. for really dooming cartoons to Saturday morning kiddie shit.
>>71540545
>In an effort to kill replygirl, youtube pretty much killed off the animation industry that was just taking off.
This really stings, since the internet is supposed to be the ideal platform for launching any creative endeavour. I hope you're doing okay, anon.
Having said that, for all YouTube's dickery, I think it's good that folks like Pendleton Ward are trying to use it as a way of bypassing all the network exec shit.
>>71540759
Princess and the Frog.
>>71540841
I'm under the frederator mcn, and they too have taken a large nosedive in revenue and have had to lay people off in their studio.
>>71536007
It's becoming (or is already) a monopoly. Soon there will be cities owned by Disney, and everyone will have to wear Mikey hats and a smile at all times OR THEY'LL BE PUT TO LABOR IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINES!
>Greg and Genndy will always get shafted
>The only "adult" animation America wants to see are Simpsons and Family Guy clones
>Disney continues to make a terrible influence for animation
>>71540808
The 70s and 80s were a pretty dire time for animation, overall. The 90s did a lot to bring it back, but then good ole' 9/11 made all the soccer moms pay extra-close attention to little Jimmy's TV shows and we lost a lot of ground.
>>71536445
They needed time for the kids that grew up during the renaissance to get over their edgy teenage years and have kids of their own that needed to be parented by DVDs.
>>71540894
>It's becoming (or is already) a monopoly. Soon there will be cities owned by Disney, and everyone will have to wear Mikey hats and a smile at all times.
KILL THE MOUSE
TAKE HIS HOUSE
KILL THE MOUSE
TAKE HIS HOUSE
Will there ever be a time where American cartoons will have cool fights like this, but without the toxicity of waifufags and moe that anime has?
>>71540751
>The shows that leapt to mind were Motorcity, Sym-Bionic Titan, EMH and Young Justice
Such a shame, they all either got cancelled or ended too quickly.
>>71540106
This is why we all need to see Sausage Party when it comes out, no matter how shit it is.
Define "adult themes".
another way animation studio is weird: when you mentally catgorize a film, you think of the director, right? you don't think of it as a 'universal' or 'columbia pictures' film. but you think of animated things as being dreamworks or disney or pixar, unless it's directed by someone standout like brad bird or john k.
>>71539596
you don't think elsa was literally the most complex character ever, and merida is ariels brother's sister's cousin's former roommate? DO YOU HATE ALL JOY
>>71539990
Yep, if it's in WSJ kids are gonna be reading it. Still, it's even if it wasn't targeted at children it's not like they're gonna stop reading and consuming violent shit. I remember my little sis was telling me how popular Attack on Titan was at her school.
>Admittedly I have only watched the remake, so I don't know what the original was like
It's pretty much completely faithful to the manga thanks to Basedhouse.
>>71541002
I'm not so keen on ostentatious anime fight scenes, so I sure hope not!
>>71536007
>Never forget
>>71540876
Thanks
>>71540894
There is already a town owned by Disney, so we're almost there
Who gives a shit if no one is talking about Dragon 2? It's just another Dream Works cash-in.
>>71539101
>I'm more concerned with how their recent push to make live-action versions of their famous animated films
I'm really surprised this isn't pissing off everybody ever.
>>71540640
Ugh. This comment about latching on to emotional stuff in Steven Universe really hits home. I did the same thing with ATLA.
Even though there are loads of enthusiasts, there's not enough of us to justify a real investment in mature storytelling in animation.
>>71540894
>Soon there will be cities owned by Disney, and everyone will have to wear Mikey hats and a smile at all times
Nah. They tried that with Epcot Center and it didn't take.
>>71540841
>I think it's good that folks like Pendleton Ward are trying to use it as a way of bypassing all the network exec shit
Of all of the fucking people why did it have to be Pen? I have seen all of those cartoon hangover shorts, they are all terrible and capture the spirit of post season 3 Adventure Time.
>Mickey, Pixar and the Muppets for the kids
>Princesses and fairy tales for ladies
>Marvel and Star Wars for Gentlemen
Welcome to the Disney World, motherfuckers.
>>71536007
I see your point, but... hasn't it been like this since 1940????
>>71540894
People will be forced to draw and share fan art of the latest Disney films on social media sites to appease their mouse overlord.
>>71541002
No.
Look on the bright side, Disney will never be able to use the X-Men in any movie until Fox gives up the license, which is obviously never.
>>71540477
>The west has no company that will support that kind of thing
And any show that tries to take that direction gets canned.
>>71541079
>I'm really surprised this isn't pissing off everybody ever.
Pissed off pretty much everyone in the thread talking about Disney's film releases for the next three years. Nothing but wall-to-wall despair on the subject, though most of it was overshadowed by the American live-action remake of Ghost in the Shell.
>>71537679
marvel
>>71541014
>This is why we all need to see Sausage Party when it comes out, no matter how shit it is
What the fuck is that? The title alone makes me not want to google that.
>>71541002
I'd take moefags to people past the age of 12 that still have crushes on anthropomorphic animals.
>>71541079
i feel really sorry for the poor fuck animating the cgi tiger in the live action jungle book cash-in and having to measure up to milt fucking kahl
>>71538290
> compare japan,
Nah.
Most japanese people think cartoons/anime are for kids.
>>71540077
>overbearing perfectionist who can't schedule worth a damn or work within a budget
>works are almost exclusively for television and not films while advocates a short-form cartoon distribution model that is no longer economically viable
>rarely bothers staying on model and has trouble showing adequate motion/tweening issues
>learned entirely by copying other cartoonists
>>71540233
ATLA would have been a spark if ANYTHING ELSE had come out around that time that was at the same level. Remember Avatar was in its last season and was ending around the time Toonami was cancelled and CN started going completely to shit. No DC universe show to fill the gap either. Nothing really filled the hole and thus that spark went out.
Yeah, the 90s was probably the only shot animation really had
>>71541231
...maybe it's a "do as I say, not as I do" thing?
>>71541231
>all attacking the man himself rather than what he says
More evidence that he's right?
>>71541002
What anime is this?
>>71541140
The only time it worked was with Bob's Burgers, King of the Hill and Home Movies. Too bad two out of the three is dead.
Action shows and animated down to earth adult sitcoms are dead.
Cape comics are blatantly adult-oriented these days and it doesn't stop them from being juvenile in a lot of ways.
>>71541002
>Implying Maka isn't moe
>Implying literally every girl in that show isn't a waifu
>>71541289
Soul Eater
>>71541165
The Seth Rogen/James Franco animated movie.
>>71541299
That's because the concept of "capes" is inherently silly.
>>71541064
I'd throw Kaguya in there as well.
The way I see it is that in the future, looking back, the general public will still love Big Hero 6 the most, but film enthusiasts will have higher regard for HTTYD2, Song, and Kaguya.
Honestly at this point I really hope HTTYD3 holds nothing back and provides the most gritty, emotional ending to a trilogy possible. Forget pandering to soccer moms and Disneyfags who can't handle a little darkness (really, people bitched that they didn't like HTTYD2 because it was too dark for them), if you can't beat Disney at the Oscars/box office - curb stomp them with quality.
>>71541289
Boku no pico.
>>71541207
Or otaku neets. Nevermind, you already said children.
>>71541299
That's a different kettle of fish.
>>71541207
>Most japanese people think cartoons/anime are for kids.
While that is true, that doesn't change that multiple anime are made for different demographics. See the difference here is that casual Japanese people thinking cartoons/anime are for kids but there exists anime for older demographics. In America, casual Americans think cartoons are for kids and there are zero cartoons for older demographics (That aren't Simpsons and its ilk)
>>71541328
>The way I see it is that in the future, looking back, the general public will still love Big Hero 6 the most, but film enthusiasts will have higher regard for HTTYD2, Song, and Kaguya.
Kinda like how all the animation fanatics always make sure Iron Giant gets a mention?
>>71541319
You mean the "DUDE WEED LMAO" guy? I'm pretty sure that movie is gonna be everything that's wrong with "adult" cartoons.
>>71540077
Has John K ever done something that wasn't a comedy?
Because the comedy ghetto isn't much better than the age ghetto.
>>71541368
>While that is true, that doesn't change that multiple anime are made for different demographics.
But then we reach the question: does that matter if the public still hold you in contempt for expressing interest in animation? That stigma still exists, it's just less pronounced.
>>71541207
france might have been a better example
>>71541079
I'm just pissed off they're not doing Hunchback.
http://www.cinemablend.com/m/new/Please-Disney-Make-Hunchback-Notre-Dame-Your-Next-Live-Action-Feature-70802.html
>>71541446
Well the Japanese also have manga and that's literally for everybody. We don't get that
>>71541428
Cartoons are the genre to which animation is best suited.
If you can't do that well, you'll never do any decent dramatic/serious animation.
The concept of a "comedy ghetto" in animation is like saying music is stuck in a "melody ghetto" or "rhythm ghetto".
>>71541458
Never, because it will be deemed "too dark".
>>71541480
True enough, but we're talking about the animation age ghetto.
I'm just trying to say that peoples' insistence of "why can't we be more like Japan?" is somewhat misplaced. Grass ain't a whole lot greener over there.
>>71541551
I'm not saying we should be more like Japan, I'm saying we should at least have some fucking options other than "lelcomedy series" because that's literally all that matters over here.
>>71541335
Nice meme.
>>71541319
wait really? i thought you meant the john k thing.
>>71541270
No, an ad-hominem attack would focus on how he's apparently something of an ass with grabby hands. In this case the man's work history, output, and work ethic don't gel with what he's espousing.
>>71541619
So attack what he's espousing instead of his history. I've been waiting a while now.
>>71541290
Home Movies had four seasons on second-tier cable network outside of primary time slots; KotH had thirteen seasons on a major network in primetime.
>>71541650
I just did. Some of the stuff could be claimed as difference of opinion, but his ideas about getting cartoons back into theaters won't work from an economic standpoint.
And his history, as he's a long-term, famous member of the animation industry, is of great importance, especially when he's advocating changes within that industry that don't line up with his own, current, practices.
>>71541482
>Cartoons are the genre to which animation is best suited.
Sci-fi/fantasy are the genres to which animation is best suited.
Disney is not helping, I don't deny that, but I don't think it's truly their fault. Society has a thing against what is considered "kiddy shit". Look at other industries like videogames. They have plenty of adult themes in them and it's still looked down.
>>71541328
>the most gritty, emotional ending to a trilogy possible.
Anon, the director said it's gonna end like the books, and we already know what happens there. So that's a yes to the answer. The kids and parents' butthurt will be epic and Iwill cry like a baby.
>>71536007
Disney slowly, painfully earned back its position with each film through the late 2000s into the 2010s. Dragons 2 had the whole summer to itself and a mcdonalds promotion and it flopped. Deal with it, you're getting a third movie anyway.
>>71541988
Dragons 2 didn't flop.
>>71541852
>his ideas about getting cartoons back into theaters won't work from an economic standpoint
Why not?
>Some of the stuff could be claimed as difference of opinion
No, it can't.
Tell me why good drawing, creative control and real life inspiration are bad.
For fuck's sake, it shouldn't be this difficult.
>Sci-fi/fantasy are the genres to which animation is best suited.
Not at all, evidenced by the fact that 99.9% of sci-fi/fantasy animation desperately attempts to emulate live action.
>>71541676
Exactly, America will never get that kind of thing again and the only reason why Bob's Burgers is watchable is because it's done by One of the co-creators of Home Movies. I would say Bojack might be upthere but the animal people in Hollywood kinda kills it.
>>71540450
You're on /co/, so you're probably fat enough to do that.
/co/ - The Board That Wants to Fuck Mountain Dew
>>71541852
also muscials. actually, probably anythin. you;d never say 'to which live action is best suited' and they're both just mediums
>>71541867
vidya is in a different sort of place though, because it's stuck in a different ghetto...the greyish fps ghetto. they're still seen as an adult thing, just a childish adult thing.
>>71536007
>>71539815
The Wind Rises is the best animated feature of 2014
Not 2010, the best animated feature of 2010 was Toy Story 3 not Frozen.
I am so fucking tire of stupid kids thinking that stuff that did happen a year a go are really old. For them 6 months is like a year or two and one year is like 3 or 4.
>>71542076
>they're still seen as an adult thing
Nooo they aren't. The only socially acceptable videogames are facebook shit.
>>71542019
john k has views that all animation should be his type of wackily animated cartoons, he doesn't like dark serious things or realistic things.
>>71542123
>The only socially acceptable videogames are facebook shit.
Come on now. Nobody gives a shit if you play video games as long as it doesn't define your identity.
>>71542076
there is more to videogames than AAA titles, there are a lot of independent devs who create real works of art. there is more to animation than features and series, but shorts aren't really publicized as much as they ought to and aren't taken seriously.
>>71542122
>2010s
>s
Learn to read.
>>71542205
I'm not saying it's super attacked like it used to be, but it definitely still has stigma.
And to be honest, the same can be said about animation. A couple of animating movies, humor silliness mostly, have been more socially accepted, like Shrek.
>>71541482
So that's a "no".
Now, you have a legitimate point in that humor is harder to do than drama, but by that logic he should have at least one dramatic piece to his name.
(Also humor is subjective, but I don't find his work funny.)
>>71541079
Most people have very little faith in Disney at this point. It's not shocking that they'd sink this low.
>>71541867
They have a thing against "kiddy shit"...except Disney "kiddy shit" which people flock to.
>>71542076
Video games have a similar problem in numerous ways: society brands them as juvenile, creators want to use the medium to convey stories/experiences and the fans are far too impatient to have them be just as accepted as film, TV and books.
The big difference is how people want video games to be regarded as "art" RIGHT NOW. This instant. Largely to be vindicated for all that time spent playing them.
>>71542205
>Nobody gives a shit if you play video games as long as it doesn't define your identity
Too late.
>>71542181
John K. states (correctly) that animation is best suited for cartoons. I don't know what you mean by "his type" of cartoons but he hates it when people try to copy what they perceive to be "his style".
He hates contrived pathos and animation that attempts to emulate live action rather than take advantage of its own medium.
From reading his blog, I've seen him tout the merits of a wide variety of drastically different styles of art and animation, from both comics and cartoons.
>>71542270
Humor isn't harder to do than drama.
That's the thing.
It's a lot easier to do a good, funny cartoon than good, serious animation.
Yet we can't even do that anymore.
That's why I think it's insane that you're all creaming yourselves at the idea of leaving the "animation age ghetto" when 99% of cartoonists today don't know who the fuck Preston Blair was, and only know how to draw Disney expressions.
>>71541103
I really hate that Muppets has become so exclusively a kids' property. I know it's always been mostly all-ages in that it never did stuff that was totally inappropriate, but actually focusing on kids has led to a huge lack of care in the details and a ton of restrictions for the storytelling. A lot of the original show is artsy skits and jokes about opera or old standup, right alongside standup and lame puns. The whole appeal is that it never talks down to anybody or degrades itself, it's a show that knows when to go for a laugh or try and make something more sincere.
>>71542276
With their children.
Disney hasn't made a decent looking movie in forever.
Look at their newest movies. Boring, smooth, "realistic" motion. Nothing like the great exagerated motions of the past.
Watching Pinocchio or Bambi just do a walk cycle was more interesting than anything that ever happened in Frozen.
>>71540011
Well aware of that detail. Adults in Japan have no quarrel with other adults reading manga like One Piece. In the USA however? Say you like comics and you are mocked (unless you use the Graphic Novel defense to save face).
Again the West is seriously messed up.
>>71542409
>Watching Pinocchio or Bambi just do a walk cycle was more interesting than anything that ever happened in Frozen.
In this moment, tripfriend, we are brothers.
All I have to say is look at Rabbi's Cat.
It's an adult movie in the sense I'll not show it to my 6 yr old sister because it goes way over her head, but if she wants to watch it, she can. If she likes it and decides to watch it over and over, she'll even be exposed to great stuff and themes while growing up, and gradually understanding them.
But more to the point : it's not dark, gruesome, vulgar or anything of the sort. It's a beautiful movie with great messages that doesn't think you need to be able to tell your child to go to bed while laughing at a dirty sex joke to feel adult.
>>71542344
>Humor isn't harder to do than drama.
>That's the thing.
Every comedian ever says otherwise.
>>71542009
I mean in the US. It did unusually bad here compared to elsewhere, and since this country is the center of the universe...
>>71542474
I'm not talking about standing on a stage, I'm talking about acting with a pencil.
It's a lot easier to exaggerate funny than sad.
>>71542425
That's because "comics" in the west is synonymous with "super heroes". Which is ANOTHER pervasive, wretched problem plaguing a creative medium, but not the one we're talking about right now.
>>71542317
my favourite tumblr:
http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/
>>71539763
Western animation however IS paying for it's mediocrity. Ultimately in general kids prefer to watch anime on stream websites where they can get their Action violence fix because in Western animation they cannot get this. About the only product that kids enjoy in the West that delivers on action violence is videogames. T rated games at that, something that Western animation will not mimic.
>>71542344
Animation isn't really best suited for cartoons, that's just something cartoons can do exceptionally well. Every medium has at least one genre or school of thought that the medium easiest applies itself to, but to say that the medium should only be that certain style of storytelling is narrow-minded at best. Comedy isn't as intrinsic to animation as rhythms or melodies are to music (and even then music can vastly differ on the importance of those aspects, with some genres being interesting and worthwhile without even bothering with them.)
>>71542556
This is glorious.
>>71542601
>but to say that the medium should only be that certain style of storytelling is narrow-minded at best
Not even John K. says this, though.
>Every medium has at least one genre or school of thought that the medium easiest applies itself to
And, as my point has been this entire time, if we cannot competently apply the medium to this genre, why are we trying to take the next step?
>>71542501
>It's a lot easier to exaggerate funny than sad.
Oda exaggerates sad really well. The trick is snot.
Television is a younger medium than animation.
>>71542019
If you're a movie studio, adding a cartoon short to the beginning of a film will increase expenses while not bringing in any additional revenue. If you're a movie theater, adding a short decreases the number of times you can air a film in a given day and decreases the amount of advertisements, which you charge for airing, while not increasing attendance.
Creative control is a double edged sword. It can lead to great, innovative, creative productions. It can also lead to bloated, narrow interest pieces that are overbudget and late. There is a reason why the auteur movement in Hollywood died out by the early 80s. John K has shown that he can't work a budget or timetable, has issues working with his staff, and can't see from the point of view of the studio. Real life inspiration is fine, it's just weird that John K says that but doesn't approve of realism in cartoons and himself learned his craft by copying Hanna-Barbera and spend his career emulating Bob Clampett. Good drawing is entirely subjective and doesn't hold weight as an argument.
Sci-fi and fantasy animation break the restrictions on the genres that are found in live action, less so now that CGI and visual effects have gotten a lot cheaper, allowing for things that couldn't be done in live-action to be presented.
>>71542344
>John K. states (correctly) that animation is best suited for cartoons.
That's like saying that live-action is best suited for live-action.
And Preston Blair was a Disney animator.
>>71542763
But most animation comes from TV, dummy.
>>71542769
maybe companies should begin airing old shorts, if they have them. who doesn't like looney toons?
>>71542878
By "cartoons" they mean comically-proportioned characters doing slapstick.
>>71542769
>If you're a movie studio, adding a cartoon short to the beginning of a film will increase expenses while not bringing in any additional revenue. If you're a movie theater, adding a short decreases the number of times you can air a film in a given day and decreases the amount of advertisements, which you charge for airing, while not increasing attendance.
Fair enough. Put them on the internet instead.
T.V. is dying, and frankly, a terrible place for animation.
>Creative control is a double edged sword. It can lead to great, innovative, creative productions. It can also lead to bloated, narrow interest pieces that are overbudget and late.
I've never seen anything worthwhile come from an executive boardroom or focus-testing. I'll take a few bloated, narrow interest pieces over that any day of the week.
>Real life inspiration is fine, it's just weird that John K says that but doesn't approve of realism in cartoons and himself learned his craft by copying Hanna-Barbera and spend his career emulating Bob Clampett.
Ed Benedict influence is window dressing. I've seen more original expressions and unique acting in the Spumco cartoons in anything since 1940s Warner Bros, which is where he gets it from.
>Good drawing is entirely subjective and doesn't hold weight as an argument.
No it's not. That's like saying there is no objectively proper way to hold a guitar. You can't animate something that isn't drawn properly, at least not well.
>>71542878
>That's like saying that live-action is best suited for live-action.
Cartoons - Stylized, exaggerated drawings.
Animation - The illusion of movement/life.
>And Preston Blair was a Disney animator.
And?
>>71542888
Television is the younger medium, yet is far more respected as a storytelling platform.
It's hideously unfair.
>>71542344
>He hates contrived pathos and animation that attempts to emulate live action rather than take advantage of its own medium.
what can this even mean besides 'animation is for wackily animated cartoons '?
>>71542993
For starters, in the words of Chuck Jones - "Why do animation if all you're doing could be done with live action?"
Come up with ways of conveying dramatic themes that take advantage of the animated medium. John K. himself said that his favorite Disney moments are the moody dramatic bits that aren't cloyingly cute (like Maleficent's scenes in Sleeping Beauty).
I get the feeling sometimes that all you people want are '80s Filmation Saturday Morning "action shows" with bigger budgets.
>>71541328
>Disney
>Darkness
As a Kingdom Hearts fan.....anyone else resent how KH churns out censored versions of Disney's G rated movies no less?
>>71543149
>I get the feeling sometimes that all you people want are '80s Filmation Saturday Morning "action shows" with bigger budgets.
I wouldn't be surprised if that would satisfy a lot of people here.
>>71543149
>I get the feeling sometimes that all you people want are '80s Filmation Saturday Morning "action shows" with bigger budgets.
I can't speak for anyone else but on the subject of action shows I'd like characters with swords that could actually cut living flesh.
Or actually, does anyone remember this miniseries from maybe the late 90s called Invasion America? I would be okay with more stuff like that.
>>71542925
Internet isn't a great place for animation. Why take 4-5 months to make something and then put it on YouTube only to get view blasted by LPers who spend like an hour to get 500,000 views?.
>>71542925
>I'll take a few bloated, narrow interest pieces over that any day of the week.
No, you'll take the few bloated, narrow interest piece that you like. The problem with niche pieces is that they usually get niche audiences and that means not a lot in the way of revenue. You cant keep production running if you can't pay for it. Also, Star Wars and Clerks.
Original expressions or unique acting does not indicate anything about the quality of the work itself. They are a great component and not necessarily appropriate in a given situation.
False dichotomy. The way you hold a guitar can be vital to the absolute function of the guitar itself. If it's drawn, chances are you can animate it no matter what it is.
Preston Blair being a Disney animator is important when the negative claim is that people are drawing like Disney and you're using him as a comparison.
>>71543149
>Come up with ways of conveying dramatic themes that take advantage of the animated medium.
This came up in a conversation with a friend about Fantasia not too long ago. They didn't find it at all impressive.
>"What, not even Chernabog?"
>"The devil guy? I guess. I mean, I could see that being done in CGI."
>"But it wasn't done in CGI. It was done by hand. In 1940. Think of what films were like back then and compare it to THAT."
That's what animation should always strive for. Not at the expense of capturing reality when necessary, but it should always be able to cast of those limitations when appropriate.
>>71541138
Or until they buy fox.
>>71543255
Obviously the solution is to find a platform other than YouTube. No sense trying to escape the tyranny of TV execs and ratings only to be forced to try and appear Google's algorithms.
The internet's still the best platform for creative endeavour, though.
>>71543379
Where would you go Newgrounds?
>>71543303
>No, you'll take the few bloated, narrow interest piece that you like.
I'll take any.
Creative control may have led to these bloated interest pieces, but that's offset by the great works they've created.
Nothing of value has been created by committee.
>Original expressions or unique acting does not indicate anything about the quality of the work itself.
Not by themselves, but you can't have great work without them.
>They are a great component and not necessarily appropriate in a given situation.
When are they not?
>The way you hold a guitar can be vital to the absolute function of the guitar itself.
Not at all. I can punch the strings over the soundhole and make music. I can use it as a percussive instrument.
>If it's drawn, chances are you can animate it no matter what it is.
You can make it move. You lose the illusion of life when it melts or can't tell what's happening.
>Preston Blair being a Disney animator is important when the negative claim is that people are drawing like Disney and you're using him as a comparison.
Preston Blair is good for basic drawing principles. The foundation. The flaw with Disney is that's where they stop. They rarely if ever use any unique, original expressions, but a few recycled cliches that may have, at some point, been inspired by real life. That's to say nothing of Blair's talent himself, by the way.
>>71538290
>walt disney, of all people, is responsible for making animation for children
Look me in the eye and tell me Fantasia was made with kids in mind, I fucking dare you.
>>71543734
Tell me what adult about Fantasia.
>>71543846
When I was a kid, I thought everything except Mickey and the brooms was boring as fuck.
>>71542954
Television also has a shitload more put out, and it didn't get pigeonholed into a single genre. It's not so much unfair as the consequences of history.
>>71536007
Good thing they have animation in other countries.
>>71543846
It was centered around classical music, one of the most "mature" interests that exists. Just because a work isn't full of swear words or innuendos every two minutes doesn't mean it's for children.
>>71543846
It's an opera with a ton of abstract surreal scenes and classic artistry that bores the hell out of children.
How come disney movies are considered childish but not ghibli movies. They're both about as kid-friendly as each-other.
What do you want from animation?
>>71543945
>>71543985
So it basically distract kids with pretty animations and vibrant colors with lullaby music plays.
No different than that toy you put on top of cribs.
Wasn't Walt Disney infuriated when Fantasia was about to premiere and people were asking him if it was good for children? Like Walt was angry that people summed up his company's work as just entertaining that demographic alone.
>>71544075
No, it was spectacle intended for all ages because in 1940 people weren't so difficult to impress.
>>71543516
>Nothing of value has been created by committee.
I just said Star Wars, the massive franchise whose high points are considered to the times when its creator didn't have absolute creative control. Star Trek too.
>When are they not?
When their use would be inappropriate to what you're conveying on screen.
>Not at all. I can punch the strings over the soundhole and make music. I can use it as a percussive instrument.
Now flip the thing over and try to play. Plus if you want to be technical the normal way you play a guitar is punching the strings in a perpendicular, downward motion.
>You can make it move. You lose the illusion of life when it melts or can't tell what's happening.
The illusion of life isn't a requirement of animation, only movement.
>>71543149
>I get the feeling sometimes that all you people want are '80s Filmation Saturday Morning "action shows" with bigger budgets.
I get the feeling sometimes that all you people want are endless gag takes.
>>71544007
>How come disney movies are considered childish but not ghibli movies. They're both about as kid-friendly as each-other.
They're foreign. Foreign is exciting.
>>71543255
But anon, lets players DO work hard, they have to do editing,video editing, sound editing, and find ways to keep the audience entertained, they dont just play a game and record it
>>71536007
>Is Disney starting to damage the animation industry
The Walt Disney Company is the largest media conglomerate in the United States. Bigger than News Corp, bigger than Time Warner, bigger than Viacom. They're fucking massive. They practically are the American animation industry. Pixar was their last serious competitor in Disney Studio's particular field — that is, movies that parents and kids can watch together. That worked out well for Pixar, huh?
But.
>Animation is for kids is entirely Disney's fault.
This is bullshit.
Until the Hayes Code, cartoons cursed, had sexual innuendo, drugs, alcohol, nudity. From 1934 to 1968, none of that was allowed, and all foreign animation with that content was completely and totally censored. If you're wondering why cartoons = kids, don't blame America's "Puritan roots" from the fucking 1790s, blame the 20th century and three decades of cartoons NOT BEING ALLOWED to do anything adult. Instead, you get animation like Fantasia, that tried to be "adult" in terms of artistic maturity, rather than themes or content. Adults did not exactly go wild for it.
Once the Hayes Code was gone, it took a few DECADES for people to see animation as anything but pitiful kiddie shit. It did eventually happen, though, and Disney was the one to do it. Think about Who Framed Roger Rabbit, published by Touchstone Pictures, owned by Walt Disney Productions. It sure as hell wasn't made for six year olds.
These days, Disney doesn't even put out big G-rated movies beyond cheapo nature documentaries because being 100% squeaky clean doesn't cut it any more. But Disney still has a lock on the market, and it's the biggest possible one that can appeal to the most amount of people. Are they failing to innovate? Yes, and it's no accident that Pixar started going down the tubes after Disney purchased them. But animation is fucking expensive, and producing for the adult market alone isn't a slam dunk yet.
>>71536284
under rated post
>>71544007
>How come disney movies are considered childish but not ghibli movies. They're both about as kid-friendly as each-other
Because anime was a mistake.
>>71536007
A thread about Disney destroying animation and not a single mention of Don Bluth yet? You disappoint me /co/mrades
>>71540563
You're right, in fact.
>>71536007
How to train your dragon 2 was utter shit
>>71537905
There are people who thinks that Disneynature films should be rated PG. Monkey Kingdom, specially, since there are 2 deaths of monkeys, one from an alligator and other from another monkey clan.
>>71536007
That's because one was a good movie and the other was not
>>71547176
Or Chris Sanders
>>71547176
>Don Bluth
What did he do?
>>71547326
What's the context of this? Is he condemning the entire medium? The companies that make it? The obsessive fan culture?
>>71544022
Quality
>>71548054
Probably all the moeshit and samefaces that anime has become.
>>71548185
Those have always been a thing in anime since it started.
>>71548054
It's a maymay, cunt.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/anime-was-a-mistakeAlthough he actually criticized the obsessive otaku culture.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/131872-Hayao-Miyazaki-Anime-Suffers-Because-the-Industry-is-Full-of-Otaku
>>71548235
Ok, thank you. I just couldn't see him the medium he spent, what, 40 plus years working in?
Otakus are the cancer killing anime, he's right about that.
>>71536022
this, totally this, anyway, the animation industry refuses to die leaving a monoculture.
>>71548290
He's actually talking about people who can't draw from life. Essential he's complaining not about weaboos watching anime, but weeaboos making anime.
>>71548006
made 4 or so actually good movies that stood out from the Disney shit of the time, then descended into batshittery and made like 7 that were far worse.
also weird/ugly mouth movements for speaking animation that you can never unsee
>>71548730
Close but not really. He was a Disney head animator, during Rescuers he went to his directors and asked why they were removing everything that made Disney movies beautiful. After not getting any answers he left and 71 other Disney animators followed him. He started a rebellion against a giant (and lost)
D
>>71536302
Not true. Here's all the animated movies that are better, pleb.
>The Illusionist
>The Painting
>Rango
>ParaNorman
>Wreck It Ralph
>Ernest and Celestine
>The Tale of Princess Kaguya
>The Book of Life
>The Lego Movie
>HTTYD series
I can go on, but you get my point. Any of these is better than Frozen.
>>71536007
I can't believe all of you are forgetting the awesomeness that is Europe in terms of animation. Compared to America, the animation industry is thriving (nearly twice the amount of movies being made from 2013-2018), and has for a very long time.
Animation is also used to tell a variety of stories, and not all of them are just for kids. The concept of medium blending is also more welcome there, and is used in stories like biopics like Waltz with Bashir, >>71542466, or pic related.
Now are these all famous in America? No. Will they make a lot of money? Not here. But at least take it as proof that people are still managing to tell complex, interesting stories that utilize all types of animation. Proof is below.
>>71536302
It really isn't m8
>>71537209
That's because disney told them stop.
No, seriously. That's what happened.
Tangled, released in 2010. the first disney movie that made some money
Toy Story 3, released in 2010. the last pixar movie that had a critical acclaim
then what happens? Cars 2, Brave, Monsters University. All fucking garbage
What happens at disney? Winnie the Pooh, Wreck-It Ralph, Frozen, Big Hero 6
Yeah, it's totally a fucking coincidence.
>>71536007
>blaming disney
Disney only churns out what society whats and what society wants is PG boring crap
>>71553966
http://www.animationeurope.com/inproduction.asp
The Tower of Dreams--animation/live action hybrid
>>71539941
Pinocchio
