"The fictional heroes of the past, while still retaining all of their charm and power and magic, have had some of their credibility stripped away forever as a result of the new sophistication in their audience. With the benefit of hindsight and a greater understanding of anthropoid behavior patterns, science fiction author Philip Jose Farmer was able to demonstrate quite credibly that the young Tarzan would almost certainly have indulged in sexual experimentation with chimpanzees and that he would just surely have had none of the aversion to eating human flesh that Edgar Rice Burroughs attributed to him. As our political and social consciousness continues to evolve, Alan Quartermain stands revealed as just another white imperialist out to exploit the natives and we begin to see that the overriding factor in James Bond's psychological makeup is his utter hatred and contempt for women. Whether most of us would prefer to enjoy the above-mentioned gentlemen's adventures without spoiling things by considering the social implications is beside the point. The fact remains that we have changed, along with our society, and that were such characters created today they would be subject to the most extreme suspicion and criticism."
So what would our modern characters look like if "Moored" for example, the blatant stockholm syndrome from Disney Beauty and the Beast.
>>77950702
This could be a cool thread.
>>77951279
This is what I HOPED Pax America would do to the ultimate s, It didn't
>>77950702
>>77950702
>new sophistication in their audience
>Alan Quartermain stands revealed as just another white imperialis
>James Bond's psychological makeup is his utter hatred and contempt for women
Leftist paranoia and ethnomasochism goggles are hardly any kind of "sophistication". All I see here is cynicism with deconstructionism fixed firmly in a leftist way of thinking which Moore can't shed for the life of him.
So wait is he implying that this is how we'd create those characters now, or simply how we read the characters of old through stereotypesnot that they're wrongof the eras they were created in?
>the blatant stockholm syndrome from Disney Beauty and the Beast
this kind of thing is really joyless and boring though
>>77951591
The latter.
Also he wrote this for the forward to Miller's Dark Knight Returns back in the 80's.
He's not neccesarily wrong but at the same time it's as much a limited viewpoint as the viewpoint of someone who is completely blind to the flaws of the past.
Reminder that Moore and his wife had a female fuckbuddy until the fuckbuddy keked Moore, ran away with his wife and took his kids with them.
>>77950702
>Alan Quartermain stands revealed as just another white imperialist out to exploit the natives
Frankly this statement both misrepresent Quartermain and the immense variety of attitudes that motivated white imperialists (which is not to defend imperialism).
>>77951645
Yeah, it's like Tumblr's insensate need to pick out every microscopic "promblematic" thing about a piece of art.
I mean you can do that if you want, it's only when they suggest you can't like it/aspects about it, without yourself being "problematic".
Not at all suggesting that's what Moore himself is saying, pretty sure he believes the opposite, but I've just become fatigued by this sort of behaviour.
>>77951861
Well he did use Quartermain as a protagonist in LOEG, so I guess he didn't hate him like Bond.
>>77951890
>but I've just become fatigued by this sort of behaviour.
I think it's tiresome when it's done by people looking for an excuse to hate something, really. Casting a critical eye on things you like can be a good thing.
Moore tends to do both and I guess you can tell which things he likes and which things he doesn't.
>>77950702
the apes that raised tarzan would have looked down on him having anything to do with chimps or gorillas. they were special.
the rest of that is fucking sad SJW shit. maybe YOU 'have changed' but I sure as fuck haven't
>>77951645
it aint stockholm. she keeps her wits about her all along and takes control of the situation in every way but physical. as women always do. We all have a beast inside us that we want slightly tamed by our ladies, but still respected when it comes in handy (fightin' off wolves and saving your dad and shit). It's not like she had much of a life back home, this was an adventure only a moron would reject.
women nowadays would just be in the mob trying to kill the beast.
>>77951890
I don't really mean tumblr though, just people in general trying to force edginess into everything. Like on those buzzfeed lists and shit.
>>77950702
Hmmm.
Either the "Beast" has one of those rare genetic disorders, and shes some sort of child bride meant to deter calamity and sickness from her village by marrying him and appeasing the gods.
OR, she got straight up kidnapped and this is a sort of chainsaw massacre affair with a disfigured lunatic. She imagines non-living objects as companions for the length of her physical and social isolation with a psychopath.
Tbh, you'd have to reach back a century or more to "Moore" certain children's stories and even then, only few of them werent already (obviously) fucked in their original form.
For example: Peter Pan used to bury male babies, that fell out of prams, alive.
Quite a bit of our post-modern myth-making is already "Moored".
>>77952427
I know what you meant. It's just things like that have caused fandom agro before, I guess I'm just a little bit sore.
Carry on with your bad self.
>>77952342
>the apes that raised tarzan would have looked down on him having anything to do with chimps or gorillas. they were special.
The book Moore might be referring to is A Feast Unknown, which had a Tarzan analogue named Lord Grandrith fighting a Doc Savage analogue named Doc Caliban. Farmer left it open so that you could think that they were the "real" Tarzan and Savage and that the pulp stories were exaggerated stories based on their lives (with names altered), but later stuff Farmer wrote made it pretty clear that those analogues weren't Tarzan or Savage. For starters, the biographies Farmer wrote for Tarzan and Doc Savage made them cousins and not half-brothers like Grandrith and CalibanAnd Savage and Tarzan definitely aren't the sons of Jack the Ripper as Grandrith and Caliban were.Going by Farmer's biography for Doc Savage, Savage isn't neurotic as Caliban (nor did he have the same psychological problems) so Tarzan wouldn't neccesarily have the same experiences as Grandrith. Also a chapter of an unpublished Doc Caliban novel had Caliban briefly seeing Doc Savage at one point.
>>77950702
>we begin to see that the overriding factor in James Bond's psychological makeup is his utter hatred and contempt for women.
Honestly, even with that the Bond movies are really fun to watch. I'd actually say they become even more charming when you accept the fact that Bond is gigantic asshole. The early films don't do anything to clean up this fact, they present an adventurous, self-important brit who, despite being very patriotic and charming, has little to respect for human life. It's not about watching a righteous man defeat evil, it's about a bad-ass rolling through a ridiculous serious of deadly scenarios and coming out on top.
It's the difference between respecting a character and liking them. I like James Bond, he's an incredibly entertaining ball of machismo wrapped in movie-charm. However I would never look up to him, he's to garish and self-centred to ever really relate too. The man becomes a caricature of the alpha-man who always wins because he is implausibly incredible at everything. He's a wonderfully indulgent fantasy. But ultimately, Bond isn't not the kind of person who works in real life.
It's a good thing too because if he was the movies would be a lot less fun to watch.
>>77951328
No, it was way better.
>>77951935
Moore just seems more jaded nowadays. I bet his Bond would have been a lot grayer if he had been written in the 90s, before the whole LoEG and V for Vendetta fiascos..
Hey Alan what about the time you got a fanfic where girls from children's stories fucked published.
How does that teach us more about our sophisticated ass selves you goddamn hack.
>>77950702
Is there some particular quality about Leftist British Intellectual types that makes them all incredibly smug and patronizing?
They always seem to ooze this arrogance that I don't see as much in American leftists.
Also there's no way I buy into the idea that society is getting *more* sophisticated. People are brutes, and brutish entertainment is as popular as it's ever been.
>>77951533
>just another white imperials
Quartermain's whole deal was how much he respected the natives of the places he traveled to. He much preferred the company of the " savages" to civilization and believed many of the Africans me meet were more worthy of the title of Gentleman than most of the Englishmen who actually held it
>>77953048
I don't follow Bond anymore, but isn't the point of the Craig Bond films that he's a borderline psychopath?
>>77954099
>Moore just seems more jaded nowadays
I get it. I mean how much would you start to hate people if they just kept asking you if you were ever going to go back to superheroes or they kept bringing up the movies you have clearly said you have no interest in?
>>77954685
It was a little more in the middle of the two extremes - yours and Moore's - but that's precisely why I call all that hogwash spewing from his bearded mug a type of paranoia. But I bet he'd go on about patronising white man and a myth of a noble savage when confronted with such an argument.
>>77954731
It's one things if its superheroes or the movies based on his work but I don't think James Bond or Harry Potter fall under those categories.
>>77954706
nah, it's still the same old shit, only even more boring due to srs realism
>>77953048
This just in, people respect assholes more than generally polite and inoffensive men.
>>77954706
>>77954882
You have not actually seen any Craig Bond, have you?
He is anything, but an "a bad-ass rolling through a ridiculous serious of deadly scenarios and coming out on top" in Skyfall. He's a wreck. Mentally and physically.
>>77954988
>He is anything, but an "a bad-ass rolling through a ridiculous serious of deadly scenarios and coming out on top"
Except for all those hot women he fucks and the world-destroying villians he thwarts.
>>77954619
"Sophistication" is a linear line in most people's head, and requires destroying most human natural instincts, like racism and the need for sex.
>>77954988
nah, it's still the same macho power fantasy made even more dull by the fact that they've tried to give it an angsty pseudo-realistic makeover
same shit, different packaging
>>77955089
>all those hot women he fucks
women he is not able to connect and just uses them, because he is an emotional cripple especially after losing Vesper.
You have really shallow understanding of the films. And the villain was not defeated in a badass way.
>>77955434
>women he is not able to connect and just uses them
lol
>>77955345
>macho power fantasy
Men dream about being weak and not up for the job, manipulated and such.
>>77955345
yeah, it is indeed the same if you ignore things that make it different.
I cannot argue with that logic.
>>77955345
>macho power fantasy
Life is like a shiny gun with a single bullet. You can only pull the trigger once but there is life in dreaming up targets even once the round is spent and only smoke remains.
>>77955546
>>77955434
trying to justify your enjoyment of silly limey agent man movies by overanalizing the fuck out of them and giving credence to their cheap pop-psychology tricks just makes you sound like a whiny faggot
just stop
>>77955947
Ignoring what actually is in the Craig Bond films vs. previous Bond films hinders ones enjoyment of said silly limey agent man movies and denying that it is indeed there makes you look like an ignorant and whiny faggot
Just fuck off.
>>77955947
Cool Argumentum ad hominem and nice projections, anon.
Stop trying to make people think I am overanalizing it, when in fact I am just pointing out the most basic things.
>>77955947
Is this what you tell yourself when you cannot comprehend even "silly limey agent man movies"? That it is not you, everybody else must just be "overanalizing" it?
>>77956016
cool totally-original-never-used-in-a-debate-before dead language and throwaway bubblegum-psych expressions
*tips fedora*
>>77956047
oi m8, woe is me, oi'm tired of shaggin' them slags an' savin' the world, oi'll drink meself to death instead. yea, dassit, this'll give me character much needed gravitas, this is a serious film after all
>>77951533
>Leftist paranoia and ethnomasochism goggles
Yes, but they are a thing today. So, he's pretty right for an important number of people.
>>77956131
>I'm just sitting here watching these anons counter every argument you've made with reason and facts while you just continually vomit bullshit out through the keyboard in a vain effort to make them stop raping you through the internet
This is just grand to watch. Don't stop.
>>77950702
>The predictable tidal wave of people who read the comment and assume it's what Moore believes and not what he's indicating would be, and is, the belief of modern society compounded by a sense of "sophistication"
Please, he's not wrong. How many people have you seen as a of recent going after anything and everything they can to dilute it to its most base, hell people do that to his work frequently, hell people have done it in this very thread.
As he said it has nothing to do with whether or not you like the property, or him for that matter, it's the fact, and it is a fact as we can see, that
>were such characters created today they would be subject to the most extreme suspicion and criticism.
And they are, he isn't making it up as much as you want to throw shit on Moore for the ills of today, or the ills you suppose he's making up I suppose. He is as much ridiculing the sort of narrow, vindictive thinking as you do.
>But doesn't that still make him a hypocrite to satisfy my spite?
No, not really. Making an observation about the obsessively hyper-analytical need to find something wrong with characters for a sense of self-importance isn't hypocritical. Focus on his point. He's not talking about just criticizing things, accurately or broadly, but going into everything with a loaded gun looking for something to shoot down. He's talking less about someone who reads a book and points out actual flaws with the work and more about someone who begins trying to pick apart a fictional idea through hyperbole such as the idea Tarzan is an ape fucking cannibal. That's not a review of the story or actual character by any measure, that's just being a pointless cunt.
As he said extremism, I don't think criticism fits the bill at the end, but it's certainly what passes for it as far as people are concerned these days. Just look at the "witty observations" of being a pederast manchild thrown at Batman.
>>77957611
>typing all that
>>77951699
Suddenly the threeway relationship between Allan Quatermain, Mina Murray, and Orlando makes sense.
>hate James Bond for being a womanizer just because the women he fucked happened to be dumb contemptible sluts who instantly craved his dick as soon they saw how badass he was
Whenever Bond got involved with a good woman, he had respect for her, the best example probably being Natalya
The problem with feminists is that they are sexists who think that women all deserve respect even though they only respect men who've earned their respect.
They think that women are entitled to being treated with respect, for some reason
>>77957579
>y-yeah, t-that's definitely what I'm doing here and totally not samefagging my euphoric posts because Im still butthurt one hour after the fact. I-I am merely a spectator watching in awe as the master reddit debater EVISCERATES some fool's NON-SEQUITURS with FLAWLESS LOGIC
>>77950702
>new sophistication in their audience
lol
Audiences think movies like Transformers and Maleficient were awesome. Nobody gives a shit about the 'social implications' of anything. Even tumblrtards who cry sexism and racism at everything have tumblrs that are 95% reblogs of good looking white dudes.
>>77951533
Have to agree with this.
Modern liberals have the sophistication and education to understand that the heroes of the past were flawed people who could not exist in today's milieu.
However, they are completely unable to understand that people in the future will feel the same way about their own political and social views.
This lack of self awareness makes all of their criticisms lacking.
In this way they remind me of the Islamic extremists who destroy the art of ancient non-Islamic cultures. They believe they are the pinnacle of social evolution and that any works which contradict their own ideology are blasphemous.
>>77959817
>>77951533
what the fuck are you two talking about. your labels mean literally nothing without examples
>>77951659
no it isn't, he is just saying this is a new way of thinking, which is true, not that it dominates every fucking aspect of society you idiot
>>77958468
>Audiences think movies like Transformers and Maleficient were awesome.
That quote from OP came from the 80's. I think Moore doesn't believe much of that anymore.
>>77958380
the fact that I am a spectator is what makes this funny
>>77959934
>he is just saying this is a new way of thinking
Nope.
>>77957611
Batman openly admits to being a manchild, in most incarnations though.
>>77960669
Fair enough if it's in the story or central to the story it's valid, though the point is that's all too commonly all that can be said about him for most critics. It's made too large a focal point of ridicule about the Batman story while ignoring or actively dismissing his other characteristics, efforts and sacrifices.
That kind of oversimplification doesn't give me much faith in the capacity of the speaker to critique or even comprehend something beyond how they can look down on it. It's just kind of worthless commentary honestly.
I mean yes, yes James Bond was a twat, very observant, what about the rest of the book/movie for god's sake.
