http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/17/between-the-panels-marvel-is-losing-ground-to-dc
>I've always gravitated toward Marvel's heroes first and foremost. It was the X-Men (both in comic book and animated form) who sparked my original transition from casual superhero fan to full-fledged comic book geek in the early '90s. And when I returned to the fold after a long absence, books like Ultimate Spider-Man and New X-Men were as responsible as anything for reigniting my love of comics. Even as I've gained a love and appreciation of the many non-superhero comics the medium has to offer, Marvel has always been a crucial part of this hobby.
>That's why it's so strange to come to terms with the fact that my interest in Marvel's comic book output is at a 15-year low these days. There are still current Marvel books I enjoy (All-New Wolverine and Vision being the two standouts), but my overall enthusiasm for the company and its general direction is sorely lacking in 2016. It's hard not to look back on the past 12 months and feel that Marvel peaked with Secret Wars. And on the flip side, I currently find myself more excited for the future of DC than I have in years. One company is losing me even as the other one is hooking me all over again. The balance of power is shifting.
>With Marvel, there's a sense of diminishing returns when it comes to the company's perpetual cycle of big relaunches followed by major event crossovers followed by big relaunches. Recent monthly sales reports seem to bear this out, with many current Marvel titles selling lower and dropping faster than their 2015 equivalents. There are a number of trends to be gleaned from these sales figures, but speaking solely from my own perspective as a reader, I don't feel enthused about the state of the All-New, All-Different Marvel Universe in the same way I did the original Marvel NOW in 2012 or the Heroic Age-era Marvel in 2010 or the post-Avengers Disassembled Marvel in 2005. The fact that this year's post-Civil War II relaunch is simply recycling the "Marvel NOW" name does nothing to decrease the "been there, done that" sensation.
>Relaunch apathy aside, Marvel has a larger problem when it comes to the state of its major franchises. Of the four main pillars of the Marvel Universe (Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men and Fantastic Four), only the first is in a particularly strong place right now. Both the Avengers and X-Men books seem to be undergoing similar post-Secret Wars identity crises, while the Fantastic Four franchise, for all intents and purposes, doesn't exist anymore. The clear sense of purpose and editorial direction that in years past propelled Marvel's heroes from Civil War to Secret Invasion to Dark Reign is no longer apparent. That's to say nothing of Marvel ongoing talent problem. They have yet to really recover from the loss of so many key creators over the past couple years (Matt Fraction, Kelly Sue DeConnick, Jonathan Hickman, Rick Remender and now Kieron Gillen). I honestly wonder how Marvel would cope if Jason Aaron or Brian Michael Bendis decided to follow their peers and focus entirely on creator-owned projects.
>>83857741
>IGN
>balance of power is shifting
>but sales aren't
lmao ok but I do hope that DC gets more sales and panders even harder to the Harley Quinn and Batman crowd
>Even as Marvel grapples with these persistent problems, DC is currently on the upswing. Granted, DC really had nowhere to go but up with the way so many of their core franchises have stalled in the past year. But I certainly didn't expect to be so immediately and completely taken with the new Rebirth status quo. DC Universe Rebirth #1 wasn't just a great swan song for Geoff Johns, it was a love letter to everything the DC Universe was and is still capable of being. That one issue seems to have reinvigorated the DCU in a way last year's DC You relaunch failed to do. I've read every DC Rebirth title published to date, and there hasn't been one stinker in the bunch. And it's not just the big guns like Superman and Batman that are capturing my attention. I point to Green Arrow as the first major success story of DC Rebirth. Before DC Rebirth, Green Arrow wasn't a comic I gave much thought to. Now it ranks as one of DC's best. That's despite the fact that the new Green Arrow series has the same writer as the old one. Right off the bat, Rebirth is bringing out the best in DC's creators in a way that the old status quo wasn't.
>You can point to many mistakes made during the course of the New 52, but I think Rebirth is proving that the most fundamental of them was the the elimination of so much vital history and so many defining character relationships. Barry Allen is a better character now that he has Wally West back in his life. Oliver Queen and Dinah Lance are stronger together than they were apart. With DC Universe Rebirth #1, Geoff Johns took a long, hard look at what the New 52 lacked, acknowledged those shortcomings with frank honesty and set the wheels in motion to restore the DCU to what it once was. That crucial sense of history and legacy is back. It's fitting that DC Universe Rebirth #1 culminated with Barry reaching into the Speed Force and rescuing his long-lost friend.
>It's an apt metaphor for the way Johns and the other DC Rebirth writers have extended a welcoming hand to alienated and disenfranchised readers.
>Obviously, we're still less than a month into DC Rebirth, and there's no guarantee the current track record will hold as more books debut and creators get deeper into their new stories. But even after a few short weeks I'm optimistic about the future of DC in a way I haven't been in a long time. I just wish I could feel the same level of enthusiasm for Marvel's comic book lineup right now. I wish I felt the same way about Marvel's comic book universe right now that I do the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
>However, the takeaway from DC Rebirth is that positive change can happen, and it can happen quickly. Maybe there are lessons to be gleaned from DC Rebirth's success. Just as DC took a long, critical look at itself and set about restoring what was lost, so too should Marvel reevaluate its current direction. I know I'm not the only Marvel lover who misses that old spark
I actually can't wait to see the sales numbers about a year from now.
Rebirth has been a really good thing for DC and has brought a LOT of people back into the fold.
Marvel really pissed fans and LCS by doing the constant relaunches and the secret wars delay. (Not even touching the growing SJW influence they had been pandering to)
Marvel shock stories might be finally starting to backfire on them.
Okay but can they sell better for like four months
>>83857866
Omitting Star Wars? Maybe.
DC has an exclusive contract with Tom King
Marvel has Unbeatable Squirrel Girl
>>83857775
>and panders even harder to the Harley Quinn crowd
No man, no. Please, make it stop. I'll accept it if it means less Harley books by P&C and more by other writers
I'd say they aren't really gaining ground, more they pulled out of the nose dive the company was in thanks to the Nu-52 and bad editorial/corporate decisions.
Actually having DC be a competing player again in the comic market is a GREAT thing for the industry long term. Marvel has gotten kinda stagnate lately. A good kick in the pants something every company needs from time to time.
>>83857899
It's a good thing Tom King has a bunch of books that sold extremely poorly...?
>>83857899
His Batman is lackluster and it'll be a while until he gets another title with DC thanks to it being bimonthly and Sheriff already being a thing
There's a lot of things I agree with. I always considered myself more of a Marvel fan, but in recent years it feels like editorial has let off the reigns and is content to promote diversity and angering their fans (which are not always mutually exclusive). Say what you will about Joe Quesada, but at least he had balls and pushed his artists. Barring One More Day, we saw stellar runs from Grant Morrison, Neil Gaiman, Mark Millar, J. Michael Strazynski, hell even Bendis was on point during this time period.
Now everything feels so disconnected, which is not a problem, but the talent roster is mostly garbage as well. I really blame Axel Alonso for seemingly lacking a spine, and allowing the Mouse to push him and the creative direction around, hence the Inhumans push and scaling back of the FF and X-Men. God, at this point I'd even welcome Shooter back, he'd at least whip everyone back into shape.
>>83858092
But his Batman is lackluster
>>83858054
>the Mouse
You mean Perlmutter.
>>83857858
>Rebirth has been a really good thing for DC and has brought a LOT of people back into the fold.
Funny how much of an effect empty promises can have.
>>83858110
>>>/tumblr/
I bet you were one of those people saying that Gotham Girl's skirt was too short in the storytime. Fuck off, DC isn't for your kind. Stick to Marvel and webcomics.
>>83858037
>his ONE batman is lackluster
lmao at least give it 3 or 4
You know Marvel is in trouble when IGN of all places is giving DC props over them
>tfw Cereal King saved comics
>ITT a bunch of salty Marlel fans will try to pretend like their company is publishing anything of substance right now
The problem with Marvel is that it obvious they are going to a seasonal event/relaunch model. Especially since the Disney buyout. Plus God help you if you're a FF or X fan.
Now that the Inhuman pushing has died down, maybe they are getting the idea they don't have to be in everything so Disney can cross-promote.
>>83858167
no one is saying anything like that
but they're still beating out DC in sales by like... a shitload
>>83858133
Well aren't we mr. cynical today.
As someone who works at a LCS, I've never seen this much enthusiasm for DC. Rebirth has been a big deal.
>>83858231
whats even the difference between Rebirth and ANAD? It's just another re-numbering right?
As much as I like what DC is doing with Rebirth and want to see it succeed over Civil War II, I don't trust fucking anything IGN puts out as journalism.
>>83857941
Yeah but now he's writing Batman, which will sell no matter what.
Can't say I disagree and I've always leaned toward Marvel. I hope they learn their lesson.
>>83858198
Sales have nothing to do with quality. Otherwise Bendis shouldn't sell more than 5000 each month. The sales may don't reflect it yet, but the whole Marvel Now relaunch is subpar crap so far.
>>83858110
>>83858154
Not sure why everyone is so down on King's Batman. I thought the first issue was really intriguing, and I guarantee that people who are shitting on it now will be eating their words in a couple months.
>>83858110
Literally one issue has come out. Calm the fuck down.
>>83858273
If Batman books can flourish under Snyder, that can under anyone
but that doesn't really say much about the rest of DC. I mean Flash, Superman, and Green Lantern got beat out by 2 Harley Quinn titles since the beginning of the year. They got beat out by 4 in April. I just don't know where DC is going to get their sales from.
>>83858247
ANAD came just a few months after a relaunch. And there's already a relaunch coming barely a year after ANAD. Also ANAD is mostly full of bad titles.
>>83857897
Yeah, but you can't just omit the Star Wars sales and the #1s. I like DC's output better and it would be fun to see them on top for a while for once, but these practices do work for Marvel.
>>83857933
>A good kick in the pants something every company needs from time to time.
Agreed and I think Marvel could do with a little bit of friendly competition. WWE was made indefinately better through it's competition with WCW and ECW. Kind of makes me sad they no longer have anyone to work against to help a "complacent body back into shape"
>Nu52 was so shit it makes Rebirth seem good
nevetheless, I'm not falling for DC bullshit ever again
>>83858312
>Sales have nothing to do with quality
Sales are the only thing that matter to companies and no one says "losing ground" in terms of quality.
>>83858346
>I just don't know where DC is going to get their sales from.
You answered your own question
>>83857741
Would be cool if this trend continued. More competition would probably be good for both DC and Marvel.
>>83858375
This. Well said.
>>83858367
The thing is Star Wars is almost an entirely separate market, a market that DC isn't competing in. Sure Star Wars comics are being published by Marvel, but they aren't really "Marvel Comics" if that makes sense.
>>83858054
I've also considered myself non-biased when it comes to comics as I just appreciate a "story told well that's worth telling" and semi-decent artwork. That being said, I did grow up more with DC titles from late 90's/early 00's era. I love Marvel too, but my interest in them in a company ends around the time Shooter left
>>83857741
Good. Marvel is pure cancer, they should wither and die. Comicbooks will improve considerably.
>>83858123
Nope, I mean the Mouse. Ike has been at Marvel since the early 2000's. Hell, I don't like the guy, but he did bring them back from bankruptcy after the whole 90's collector market BS.
>>83858468
>comic books will improve if there is no competition
wow
>>83858401
At a certain point, shitty quality will affect the sales. Something of bad quality, can't go on forever.
>>83858434
I'm just thinking, sales are sales, but yeah, that does make sense.
>>83858503
Snyder's Batman sold well for 52 issues
>cape comic fans discuss quality
ain't that cute
>>83858312
>Sales have nothing to do with quality.
They're businesses so sales are pretty important anon
It's not "losing ground" if DC continues to be #2 publisher after all their big #1s stop coming out
And the companies care more about sales than they do quality because if they didn't then most events and crossovers wouldn't even exist
>>83858496
> there are only two comic companies in the world
wow
Good quality competition is a important thing to have.
Hell, I love to see a quasi 50/50 split happen again. It's a good thing and keeps innovation high.
Also, DC has really turned around from the shitty editorial they had around 2010-2013. Communication has improved and teams aren't getting thrown under the bus nearly as much.
>>83858562
>the market can survive on DC alone
wow
>>83858532
t. Dave Sim
I feel the same, and it's hard not to, when DC stopped the updated heroes and diversity gimmick and is focusing on stories only while Marvel keeps "reinventing" the characters no one wants to see fucked with.
>MFW with double-shipping even Rebirth titles will have higher issues counts in under a year than any of Marvel's titles from the past few years.
Will Marvel ever hit issue 13 again in one of their capeshit titles?
>>83858585
> still thinking DC is the only other comic book company
wow
The fact that Marvel is still overwhelmingly the majority market share after Rebirth has already happened with the highest selling issues that they have (the #1s) means that nothing is going to change.
>>83858562
LCSes need both marvel and dc.
If one goes then many of them would die, diamond wouldn't purchase as many things from the publishers left standing, and then the publisheres left standing would make less money
>>83858167
Vision and Contest of Champions are pretty great.
>>83858167
>comics
>substance
lol
>>83858615
We don't have June sales and figures yet.
And anyway DC most likely lost more money from the Rebirth oneshot than they gained, no matter how well it would've sold.
>>83858606
>Thinking the comic industry can survive without spider-man
wew
>>83858633
Vision is being written by a DC exclusive author. Might as well be a DC comic.
>>83858579
>Hell, I love to see a quasi 50/50 split happen again.
This hasn't been the case since the 80s.
>>83858606
Image, Dark Horse, etc aren't big enough to support a Marvel-less industry.
>>83858657
> implying spider man hasn't gone to shit after pearls such as making a deal with not Satan
wew
>>83858680
I shouldn't laugh but that chart is so accurate it's hilarious.
ITT: Salty DC fans
Let me get my pop corn
Don't worry, the real hero of DC will save them!
DC is selling books in Walmart?
>>83858680
You think it's bad now, just look at solicits from the early 00s.
Batman and Superman were quite literally two thirds of DC. The other third was Vertigo, JL members, and extra books like Titans, TT, YJ, etc.
>>83858657
it has and it can
>>83858726
DC fans are mad their favorite company is doing well?
>>83858670
That's not how that works.
>>83858759
>DC or Marvel's well-being depending on comics
>>83858759
They are mad because another company is doing better.
This has been happening for the last 50 years.
>>83858748
Sure why not. No one goes into LCSs anymore, so you might as well try to hit people where they already are like with gossip magazines.
I will live to see Amazing Spiderman vol 10 #1. Not sure now to feel about that.
>>83858748
back during MoS, a local Walmart had a TPB of Earth 1 Superman.
Walmart really doesn't do books much anymore. some shitty paperbacks and novels of whatever Hollywood turned into a movie.
>>83858748
Walmart and Rite Aid is where I used to buy all my comics when I was a kid. It didn't dawn on me until now that I hadn't seen comics in a store like that in ages.
>>83858785
fair enough WB and Disney sugar daddies make them harder to kill
>>83858796
the 90s were 50 years ago? Damn I feel old now
>>83858738
Will Batman, Harley and Flash become the new Trinity?
How long until Harley replaces WW as Batman's sorta-waifu?
Will this lead to a Batman/Harley/Joker love triangle?
>>83858855
>Will this lead to a Batman/Harley/Joker love triangle?
I hope not
>>83858875
Sales Demand It!
>>83858804
>I will live to see both Action Comics and Detective Comics #1,000
>>83858843
I wasn't referring to sales, but then again, why did I expect a DC fan to have good reading comprehension and not read into things?
>>83858894
Man, let's just leave Batman & Joker be happy together, they deserve it
>>83858855
>>83858875
You mean they aren't already?
>>83858925
But if they spitroasted Harley it wouldn't have to be so gay.
It's just anecdotal but it's good to hear. Not because DC necessary deserves it but because something needs to change at Marvel.
>>83857782
>That crucial sense of history and legacy is back.
That kind of is what is it now that I think about it. The current Marvel stuff really has no weight or sense of progress. It just feels like things are happening. Like continually playing a game after you beat it.
>>83858936
Nah
>>83858943
They have more than 75 years of sexual frustation going on across all continuity and universes, they have to release all that sexual tension someday, better now that it's allowed that when it's too late
>>83858967
DC gained ground on Marvel with the Nu52 launch, for a while.
They will gain with Rebirth,
for a while.
Nothing is changing, the Bat-comics must flow.
>>83858778
Yes it does Marvel shill. For all intensive purposes Vision is just a DC book under a different name. You could rename it Red Tornado and it would actually be a better comic for it.
>>83859031
>butthurt
>>83858855
Flash, Wonder Woman, and GL have been in the mid 30k range together for months now
Batman, JL, and Harley are DC's most consistent best selling books.
And JL was probably because of Johns. Every book he leaves gets destroyed in every way.
>>83858911
DCYou was great, though.
>>83858037
There's no guarantee Sheriff will start up right away after the first 12 issues. He might do something else in the meantime. The artist is DC exclusive too.
>>83859063
It wasn't.
>>83859031
>Vision is just a DC book under a different name.
I'm a DC fag and even I have no idea what the fuck this is supposed to mean. It's a Marvel published story featuring Marvel characters. Tone, themes and style of presentation vary wildly between different books on either side, there is no measurable difference that would characterize it one way or the other.
Are DC fans the niggers of the comic book industry?
>they don't buy comics
>most of them can't even read
>always complaining
>DC DINDU NUFFIN
>seriously believing that the mediocre shit they devour is god's gift to humanity
>>83859031
You earned those (You)s you're gonna get, and for what it's worth this post made me laugh.
>>83858911
>ust look at the sales figures
You mean the sales figures that show that the only things Marvel has that are selling are #1s and star wars and if you take them out then DC is beating them by a wide margin? Yeah, sure bud.
>>83858911
>i liked DCYou so they weren't pandering to SJWs!
/co/ in a nutshell
There was even an apology from Didio and Lee where they were like "yeah the audience we were going for buys trades not floppies, we fucked up", so it's clear who they were talking about trying to pander to.
>>83859086
It put out some great books (Omega Men, Prez and Midnighter) it just sold like shit.
>>83857741
What does it matter? Marvel has won with the movies, they may as well let the comics go to DC, who gives a shit? People are not going to remember a fucking comic book months down the road, but the fact Civil War destroyed BvS will last for decades.
>>83858748
Yeah most of them are on the website though, stores don't even sell regular books outside of the really popular releases (like Hunger Games and shit).
>>83858434
Star Wars under Dark Horse was just another indie comic, more or less. Star Wars under Marvel's been doing phenomenally well. If DC isn't making a serious attempt to compete with SW then it's a huge mistake on their part.
>>83859108
The difference of course being that DC books actually sell in bookstores. They were the second highest comic publisher last year vs Marvel at 5 or 6.
The difference between Rebirth and ANAD is modus operandi and the philosophy behind the books.
There is literally no difference between the multiple Marvel relaunches in the last three years. They have the exact same goals, the exact same creative teams, the exact same editorial marching orders.
There is a visceral difference between Rebirth and the New 52. They pretty much took all of the positive lessons they've learned over the last couple years; stronger creative teams, less meddling, better colorists, better editors, reduced number of titles, and pointed them in a positive direction that better aligns with what fans have been asking for without simply catering to all demands. The logistics and the optics of what they are attempting to do have solid fountain with enough flex room to experiment.
Compared to the new 52 which was always on shaky ground even when the books were good and which always had a hint of slapdash buffoonery wafting about it that kept people at arm's length, it's no wonder Rebirth is hitting a sweet spot for people.
>>83858606
If Marvel and DC both somehow found a way to ditch Diamond yet stay have their comics side stay intact, the rest of the industry would be dead in a few months at most.
>>83859112
>but the fact Civil War destroyed BvS will last for decades.
No will will remember civil war in 3 months.
Just like no one cares about ultron anymore
> marvelfags triggered
Kek.
>>83859101
>If you take them out then DC is beating them by a wide margin?
I like where this thread's going
>>83859157
Yes but /co/ stutters about how DCYou wasn't there to pander to SJWs when it was clearly their intention to grab the audience that regularly sucks marvel's cock for supposedly doing it as well.
>>83859160
>if I use sophisticated words people might not realize that I'm actually full of shit
k
>>83859140
>Star Wars under Marvel's been doing phenomenally well.
I think this is mostly due to the new movie coming out.
>>83859186
I remember a thread where some anon added up all the comichron stuff, and did one without Star Wars and #1s and marvel was selling like 500k more or something.
>>83859109
DCYou brought me back into the fold after I got burned by New 52, and I'll like those comics you mentioned (plus Grayson and RSOB) probably forever, so yeah, it worked for me 100%. Too bad it didn't work for DC, but still.
>>83859210
I'll admit I don't have a source for sales but I don't remember Dark Horse SW comics sales going up during the prequel trilogy, or at least not as high up as Marvel SW comics have gone with TFA
>>83859101
DCasuals Status = Eternally Buttblasted
>>83858915
you gave yourself away this point.
don't feel bad, most these days lack subtlety too.
>>83859209
What exactly am I wrong about?
What is the difference between All-New All Different and Marvel NOW! I don't mean a plot beat, I mean what is the underlying difference between these two relaunches? What did Marvel want to accomplish in ANAD that wasn't lockstep with the tone and approach that came along with NOW?
Rebirth IS better planned out than New 52, this is an objective fact. DC has been working on Rebirth for at least a year, whereas we know that DC literally put together the New 52 after Flashpoint had already been solicited.
Wasn't the New 52 pretty much forced upon DC by Warner?
>>83858054
This. Quesada era looks amazing from where we are now.
>>83858843
No actually. 70s were and it's actually 46 years.
>>83859031
>intensive purposes
>>83859353
WB was not happy about how low sales were before, yes.
>>83859090
The only niggers here are the ones Marvel is forcing down your throats.
>>83859316
You're wrong because you're talking about two companies that don't care about artistic integrity.
You just took the bait with DC's PR, which isn't very flattering btw.
>>83859413
>You're wrong because you're talking about two companies that don't care about artistic integrity.
One was planned out competently, the other wasn't. Unless you think these companies intentionally aim to be as incompetent and meandering as humanly possible?
>>83859140
ok but how can DC possibly compete with Star Wars? how can ANYTHING possibly compete with Star Wars?
>>83857928
well buy books that arent harley and batman then
>>83857741
>implying that IGN knows shit
>>83859495
Harry Potter books would clean up.
>>83859413
>You just took the bait with DC's PR, which isn't very flattering btw.
DC's PR has been shit for years now. Didio makes a point about keeping cult comics with low sales up, yet their PR team almost mentions nothing about it and hasn't for over a decade now. Hell, about this time a decade ago DC was replacing characters left and right and were putting out (and getting) almost no PR for it.
Yes, they're both for profit companies and have marginal integrity compared to the average indie publisher but DC is noticeably better at not stroking their cock in public compared to Marvel.
>>83859495
They (and Marvel) managed to do it a decade ago. I don't have an answer for you, but it is possible.
Why would somebody tie themselves to one company?
>>83859516
Maybe so, but I'm pretty sure JK owns it more than WB does proper. She would probably have to approve of any comic at this point.
>>83859516
JK Rowling hates comics and would never let it happen. She's said this outright iirc.
>>83859554
>that DC logo
Man that image is old.
>>83859401
What about Duke and Black Wally
>>83859554
You heard in this thread: there are only two comic companies, DC and Marvel.
Just like there are only two cartoon companies, Disney and Warney Bros. And if Disney closed all cartoons would suddenly collapse. For some reason.
>>83859534
>They (and Marvel) managed to do it a decade ago. I don't have an answer for you, but it is possible.
the thing is, back then Star Wars was considered to be something of a legacy property. nothing new was being made for it other than DH comics and the EU books. Marvel brought back Star Wars comics just about a year before the new movie came out. EVERYONE was hyped about it and that gave good reason to comic publishers to order new stuff by the bucket load.
if DH had the rights to the comics when the movie was a year from release, they would have sold like crazy.
>>83859554
Why would anyone read Dynamite?
>>83859554
because stupid tribalism of people
>>83859597
/co/ likes Black Wally and Duke
>>83859554
A artificial feeling of being in an in-group
>>83859534
>Hell, about this time a decade ago DC was replacing characters left and right
*replacing characters left and right with minorities and were putting out (and getting) almost no PR for it, unlike Marvel has been for the last half decade.
>>83859639
Don't mistake the lack of multiple hate threads every day for "like". We just don't really give much of a fuck about either of them, particularly when pre-New 52 Wally exists again, and we have a million Robins to fight over already.
>>83859466
>let's do a shameless cashgrab on watchmen, while we take a huge shit on it
Like he said, you're falling for stupid pr stunts
>>83859639
I've only seen hate for Black Wally, more hate than I've seen for Miles Morales even which is a lot, and people only talk about Duke to say "he's not horrible but he's fucking pointless"
>>83859675
>>83859701
/co/ has many defenders of Duke and people have been saying how Black Wally can flourish now that White Wally is back
>>83859727
Huh, really? I must've missed those threads, but I don't pay much attention to Bat stuff normally.
>>83859701
He's going too far to say we like him (kid has only had one issue since), but we only hated black Wally when white Wally was gone. Now that they both exist I think people are being more receptive to black Wally and will give him a fair chance. Doesn't hurt that Percy is becoming a board favorite by killing it on Green Arrow and almost anyone other than Venditti on Flash is a welcome change, so black Wally's two writers will have more leeway with people here in what they do with him.
>>83857760
>That's to say nothing of Marvel ongoing talent problem. They have yet to really recover from the loss of so many key creators over the past couple years (Matt Fraction, Kelly Sue DeConnick, Jonathan Hickman, Rick Remender and now Kieron Gillen)
so glad someone finally addressed this. 6 years ago marvel pretty much was the talent pool in comics, with a number of high-profile exclusive writers churning out fantastic books. Now they've got Bendis, who hasn't put out anything good since daredevil, soule, lemire (whose team books are trash), and ewing. the rest of their crew is hot garbage. Like I'm not even on the fearmongering sjw-tip, but ever since nick spencer decided to use his books as a political platform instead of telling funny stories like superior foes, he's gotten shit
>>83859738
Yes in Batman #1s threads there are some who point out how useless and mary sue Duke is and wish for Damian to come back, and others tell them to just wait and see how King writes him
>>83859688
The majority of Rebirth books have fuck-all to do with Watchmen, which is the one element that I'm actually fair irritated by, but whatever you say kemosabe.
New 52 was a ridiculous hail mary, fly by the seat of our pants move made because WB was threatening to shutter the entire comics publishing wing. Rebirth was spurred on by the same need to increase sales, but was actually properly planned out. That is the big difference here, but because I used the word "vicariously" for some reason you've turned into a gigantic fucking baby for no real reason.
>>83858092
Holy shit dude, I suck Tom King's dick like the best faggot and I enjoyed Batman #1 but there's no need to exaggerate it so hard, it's not even that great compared to some of King's best work.
>>83859820
Batman #1 was just a refreshingly straight forward story about Batman saving a plane that ended on a minor twist setting up the actual arc.
It wasn't Shakespeare, but after like a literal decade of 12-part Bat-epics it was a pleasant diversion.
>>83859785
Defending the potential of a character does not necessarily equal liking a character.
>>83857760
>Kelly Sue DeConnick
However could they ever recover? Good thing they have Bennette and Leth to fall back on.
>>83859787
>which is the one element that I'm actually fair irritated by
Johns and others have said a few times in interviews that this is meant to be a plot thread that lasts for a year or two, and it makes sense for them to establish characters and new status quos first with the Rebirth single issues.
>>83857933
Nu52 was actually great for the company, it's the editorial floundering since Convergence and shitty marketing that killed the momentum.
>>83857858
With sjw you lose
>>83859112
>Comic discussion board.
>Who cares about comics?
>Movies, right?
Fuck you.
>>83859899
>it's the editorial floundering since Convergence and shitty marketing that killed the momentum.
New 52 was starting to lose steam way before Convergence. DCYou could've been a success, but retailers refused to gamble on it after being burned so hard by flagging sales from the last year and Convergence being a completely unsellable dud.
Man, I noticed that my pulls were becoming more and more DC lately. It's almost exclusively DC now aside from Vision of The Fix, and The Fix isn't even marvel.
>>83858037
>His Batman is lackluster
As a long time Batfag his Batman #1 made me tear up and it's the first fucking solo issue by him.
I'm so completely and entirely on board with Tom King's Batman.
>>83859112
It's WAY to early to judge if Marvel has won on the movie front.
Yes, MOS and BVS weren't huge hits, but it's still comparing 2 movies to the 13 or so Marvel has churned out.
We need to see the DC cinematic universe outside of Synder before judgement is passed.
>>83857858
only initially. marvel will rebound again like they always do after dc does some sort of restructuring. the highs are fleeting for them
>>83858633
Ewing is the one single writer Marvel has left right now.
>>83860094
>marvel will rebound again
Will it? Because Marvel seems to be learning from absolutely none of it's mistakes. Don't confuse having bigger market share than DC for success, because pretty much every retailer has corroborated that ANAD is a total dud. Marvel's response? Do it again.
>>83860094
No they wont. As a real Marvel fan what is even left for us? Every single hero is a sad pale reflection of what they once were or is dead. They fucking killed Cyclops, one of their most popular characters for years, off panel. Fuck that terrible company. Only moviefags support them now.
>>83860138
>As a real Marvel fan
Any time I hear this from either side or with any character or property, I immediately discount whatever argument follows.
>>83860161
Well you are a stupid faggot then. There is a difference between someone that got into Marvel comics cause of the movies and someone that has been reading for 15 years. Sorry that triggers you.
>>83858911
Because Omega men, Martian manhunter, Prez, Constantine and Midnighter sound like pandering.
>>83860249
>Prez
>Midnighter
>Not pandering
>>83859108
The people who are into Omega Men, Midnighter, and Prez aren't the exact same people who read every issue of Squirrel Girl. I hope this has served you in the future.
>>83860249
Well, I see how Martian Manhunter could have been pandering to a certain audience...
>>83859371
>Guy says DC outsold Marvel in the 90s
>NUH UH
>Shows graph that ends in the mid 80s to prove his point.
Jesus, man.
>>83858468
>Comicbooks will improve considerably.
No they fucking wouldn't.
As much of a DCfag as I am now I know that the best comics have come out of the two competing.
Sure, Marvel has done some pretty cancerous shit since they starting shilling their movies in their comics (Spider-man having organic webbing, Wolverine having an origin) but they just need to get their shit together and start telling fucking stories in their comics rather than hyping their movies through their comics.
Did DC do a major event for the release of Man of Steel or Batman v Superman? Nope, they had a few variant covers but otherwise they didn't do shit.
Captain America: Civil War comes out and what does Marvel do? Civil War II and Captain America Steve Rogers #1.
I'm also confident the current anti-magic stuff happening with Doctor Strange is so they can release Doctor Strange #1 when the Doctor Strange movie comes out too.
Maybe if they treated their comics as stories rather than adverts and tie-ins for their movies they wouldn't be so fucking cancerous.
They used to do that, and I believe they can do it again, but their current model needs to stop.
>>83860161
As someone who does the same thing, I think you're over reacting.
>>83860280
But SJWs never read Wildstorm or Bronze age DC comics.
>>83860249
>Midnighter and Constantine
>not gay pandering
>Prez
>not pandering
>starfire
>not pandering to the cartoon audience
>Black Canary
>not pandering to teenage girls and young women
>>83860133
marvel has never been good at learning from their mistakes in this current era. if it gets praise, its good, if it gets hate, then its good too. and say shit about some of the bullshit they push? then theyres obviously something wrong with you. but time and time again the somehow end up coming out on top.
>>83860138
theres a lot of pander to alt sources in the current lineup, and theres an event thats made me drop marvel til they end that shit, but theres some good in there too. im a bit pissed red wolf didnt last any longer, and ultimates as well as bp are pretty good books. agent venom and squadron are decent too. i dont buy that theres nothing
>>83860316
>They are mad because another company is doing better.
>This has been happening for the last 50 years.
>the 90s were 50 years ago? Damn I feel old now
>>83860316
theres still a few years of data missing chief
>but time and time again the somehow end up coming out on top.
I guess we're just going to forget about the time they declared bankruptcy lol
>>83860382
>featuring a gay character is gay pandering
christ you are such a reactionary retard
>>83860478
and despite that, they still came out winning to the point that dc had to reboot in order to try to bring in new viewers. even though both movie sets are disconnected, they are doing incredibly well while dc has its animated department and batman to fall back on.
>>83857760
>He still thinks the Fantastic Four is a main pillar
This isn't the 60s anymore. Even Guardians of the Galaxy sells more than FF.
As a matter of fact, that's the fourth pillar. Cosmic.
Itt Winey neckbeared Disney loving Man children. Have fun with Dat future Disney/marvel crossover. On A srs note I'm looking forword for Priest Deathstroke Rinn. Tony Dan run was OK the Slade is A bad dad ploys is over played & he could have done something new never less I did love the artwork of Tony especially in the annual. But the Rebirth need more Ambush BUG!
>>83860280
>If a character is gay it's pandering
I guess Gotham Central was just pandering garbage as well
>>83859516
God please no!
>>83859561
Source?! Please let this be true. It will be the only time I'm happy about an opinion that literature destroying witch will have.
>>83860382
>>Midnighter and Constantine
>>not gay pandering
Are they going "I'M GAY, I'M GAY, I'M GAY, I'M GAY, hey did you know, I'M GAY!"
If not then it's not pandering.
>>83860442
There doesn't exist any reliable data on sales from the 90s because of the whole distributor wars.
I still can't believe that Marvel decided to throw X-Men under the bus because movies. The only reason I'd pick up Marvel would be X-Men, but I don't because I know they DGAF anymore.
So what are your expectations for Marvel Now! /co/?
>Would Marvel switch back to meat and potatoes A-listers like Rebirth did?
>Will they put some good writers on X titles again?
>Do they even have good writers outside of Ewing, Waid and Spencer?
>>83860562
Did you just have a stroke, my nigga?
>>83860598
so theres no real data on the prime 90s? jesus. i love to see the effect image had on things. cy gor almost made me quit comics for a while.
>>83860328
This right here.
Movies are killing Marvel. Sure they pander to a shit demographic at times, but the most damage always come from the movies.
>>83860538
Their animated movies are actually selling less to the point where Gods and Monsters sequel probably isn't happening due to it not selling well, and they only make Justice League and Batman movies. Even the TT movie had to have JL in it because of this.
Also the movies are mostly ass now.
And JL Action is gonna be the first action show of DC's in forever and who knows how long that'll last thanks to CN
>>83860567
Midnighter is.
Question, what even is Rebirth? I know it's retconing the New 52, through the use of Dr. Manhattan.
But, is it a complete continuation? What's canon anymore and what's not?
I mean, it seems to be a continuation with Justice League #51 leading into Titans: Rebirth and Baby Darkseid, but Oliver Queen seems to be a completely different person to his New 52 counterpart
>>83860577
Both of their relationships took up tons of page space to the point where all Middy had were ex boyfriends as friends, so yeah they kinda did.
Just because you like it and it was good doesn't mean DC didn't do it to pander to SJWs.
>>83859581
Especially considering "idort" was PSP vs NDS meme
>>83860679
>I know it's retconing the New 52
This is wrong. New 52 is still canon, but it's a sort of public declaration to "get back to" the way things were before.
>>83860679
Continuation.
>Oliver Queen seems to be a completely different person to his New 52 counterpart
Percy already seeded that Oliver during the start of his DCYou run,
>>83860674
And it's awesome.
>>83860034
H-he makes, right anon?
>>83857741
That's what you get when you pander to SJWs.
>>83860577
Constantine's first issues at the very least made a big point to have him go absolutely gaga for the bararista.
>>83860703I'm not even reading it, I'm just educating you as to what's pandering and what isn't.
>>83859112
>People are not going to remember a fucking comic book months down the road
>What is watchman
>What is TDKR
>>83860745
It's worse than Thor.
>>83860562
Blink twice if you're under duress anon
>>83860679
Have you read it? If not you should go read it. It costs like $4 and you get 80 pages of comics.
Basically everything in New 52 is canon, but they're folding a bunch of pre Flashpoint stuff in through - possibly - Jon Osterman.
>>83860623 Only Stoke I have had is the grams gave me & bless her heart i't was tuff for her because of her damn arthritis. & no my phone is taking A shit & been up for 4 days& I'm A lil Delirious.
>>83860788
I honestly don't care what you think, Midnighter was A++. Stay mad.
>>83860748
No spoilers. Read the book.
But that fucking page.
Making me fucking cry!
>>83860831
Why would I stay mad at a comic that I don't have any stake in?
>>83860788
Other than the fact that Midnighter is gay, what don't you like about it?
>>83860830
Please seek help. Soon.
>>83860555
The FF don't have a book anymore
>>83860679
Its like a reverse Flashpoint/New52.
Setting things back more or less to classic Post-Crisis DC
>>83860884
You think Dr.harleen Frances quinzell.Have Time to See me?
>>83860985
It's more like Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis where they bring back some old elements that got fucked out in the reboot
>>83859623
>Dynamite?
Warren Ellis' Blackcross was okay.
That's the one Dynamite comic I've bought in five years.
>movies made more money than the economy
>DCucks think having moderately readable comics is a victory
The fucking delusion smdh
>>83857741
I like more marvel characters than DC, but I like DC's universe more and their big events and their art.
>>83861160
Yeah, DC events tend t change more and work on a grander scale than Marvels do.
>>83858157
showing shazam some love it's about damn time
>>83860820
>It costs like $4
$2.99
So with taxes, yeah I guess close to 4 dollars. But still, twice as many pages for half the price of Civil War II is pretty great, and I can't think of a single subplot in the issue that I thought was poorly done.
>>83861152
It is when you care about the comics and not the movies.
>>>/tv/
>>83861187
>twice as many pages
Whoops, sorry meant four times as many.
>>83858247
Are you retarded?
ANAD was all about the pandering.
Rebirth is all about the stories, DC is always about the stories, Marvel is never about that.
>>83857760
If Brian had left with his peers, maybe the Guardians wouldn't be on the shit situation they are currently SALESWISE. While the Bendisfags can maintain the main book, no one on their right mind is gonna buy one of the secondary books of a prime example zombie franchise.
>>83861174
The only 3 good Marvel ones I remember were annihilation conquest, Thanos imperative, and Ragnarok but I can't remember if that effected anyone other than Thor.
>>83861152
I do hope you buy the clone conspiracy for spider man dude, i bet its going to be a classic that will change the industry
>>83861245
Even though DC You was an attempt to market an increased representation of minorities and stuff aimed at people who complain about those things on the internet, they turned out several great books that told stories with characters that provided that representation regardless.
Fuck DC has had that going for them for awhile now in terms of books and creators, but for some reason Marvel got praised for shallower and less sincere attempts.
>>83861026
If she were real, maybe.
Marvel lost my money with all their sjw bullshit
>>83861185
This was quite awhile ago now. Shazam's not really done much since.
>>83861343
Johns kept promising something, and now we know there's supposed to be a Shazam series coming out on the second wave of Rebirth stuff, but he's let us down so many times already I don't want to get my hopes up again.
>>83861290
>but for some reason Marvel got praised for shallower and less sincere attempts.
I think the main thing is that they have a better PR team and know how to interact with the comics press.
Damn, there are some triggered Marvelcucks in here.
Don't worry guys, I'm sure Civil War 2: War Harder will get some hype any day now, and even if it doesn't you've still got Clone Wars 2 to look forward to. Then after that you've got Marvel Now Again: This Time with Feeling, where everything will go back to issue #1 again. Chin up.
>>83861380
Yeah, the wait is killing me.
>>83861412
>Triggered Marvelcucks
>Even though thread is filled with buttblasted DCasuals
Stay mad :^)
>>83861380
difference now at least is that he'll tell someone else to write it instead of us waiting on him to do it
>>83861380
All things considered Johns has been busy. I'm sure it'll come soon though.
>>83861459
Not the guy you're responding to, but what's with people going "HURR look at this article praising Rebirth, DCfags are so mad they're saying good things about DC."
I am an X-Men fan, and I have liked DC more since the New 52.
The thing I enjoy most in comics is reading full runs by a writer, who didnt get constantly interrupted with events by the editorial.
With Marvel I cant have this anymore because of the constant relaunches and crossovers and events. They dont let the writers write.
DC these last years gave Azzarello's Wonder Woman, Animal Man, Soule's Swamp Thing, Secret Six, Sinestro, not all of that is a masterpiece but it is what I like.
Nowadays I kinda like Bunn's Uncanny X-Men, but his book is being interrupted by the Apocalypse event to make advantage of the movie, and the Civil War 2 event, otherwise, we would have already seen more of Mystique and Fantomex and the new Hellfire Club, and the company forces a terrible status quo on the franchise, the terrigen mist cloud issue, which is stupid and has a lot of plotholes.
It is almost as if Marvel wants X-Men fans to stop buying X-Men books.
I think Ewing is the only great writer Marvel has.
>>83861543
It's remarkable that Snyder's Batman and Azz's Wonder Woman lasted for as long as they did. Its rare for a book to have a single creative team develop it for more than a year now it seems.
>>83861504
Not that anon either, but the thread's also full of "DC DOMINATION, A-ANY TIME NOW..."
That being said I think the fact we're even discussing this is just pathetic, from whatever side. A couple of years ago I wouldn't have thought comics company wars could be this /v/-tier
>>83860034
>Batfag
>Being a retard
You sure surprised me anon
