>>83249533
AM: Yeah, I know that people think I've been terribly mean to the poor little American comics industry.It's so unfair when you think about it, isn't it, that you've got a barely-educated thug from the English midlands picking upon this huge multinational corporation. You know, I ought to be ashamed of myself.
With regard toThe League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, what I'm doing with that is a kind of literary game that has been going on as long as books have been around.
I mean, it probably started with whoever came up with Jason and the Argonauts, who thought, "Hey wouldn't it be great if we had a sort of Justice League of ancient Greece. And we got Hercules and Jason and all of these other characters and you know..."
More recently, you have authors like Edgar Allan Poe. He writesThe Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket. Jules Verne thinks it's great, so he writes a sequel to it. H.P. Lovecraft--he likes the same story, so he writes his conclusion to it inAt the Mountains of Madness.
I don't think any of these people would have minded because they were all good writers who were all bringing something new to the mix. They weren't exploiting the original works. Jules Verne called his novella,The Ice SphinxorLe Sphinx Des Glaces. He didn't call itThe Return of Arthur Gordon Pym.
So, what we're doing is taking these characters that are mostly in the public domain. If they're not in the public domain, they are only referred to glancingly, as a bit of a cultural joke.
It's a bit different to bringing out a comic calledRorschach.
I don't mind people referencing my characters. It happens quite a bit. I don't even mind, like I say, with characters like John Constantine--who I've got no interest in anymore. I expected him to be handled by other writers.
But there's no real comparison. InThe League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I am not adapting characters. I am flat out stealing them in what I think is an honorable way.
I think it was one of the French Surrealists who said, "Whenever I steal something, I leave my knife." Nobody said, "Would you like to do an Alan Quatermain miniseries?" I didn't have some company suggest that to me and, because I was under contract, I had to say "All right." I took this character that, frankly, at the time when we brought outThe Leaguewas almost entirely forgotten except by the perhaps half-a-dozen people who actually belonged toRider Haggard Society. I mean, the way that I look these days, me and Kevin, we both feel that we probably ought to be members! What we were doing was taking these often obscure literary characters and, when they were in the public domain, yes, we could use them and we could hopefully bring new ideas to them.
There wasn't any point in simply recycling these characters. I think that our interpretations of them have put them into new contexts, and have probably been truer to the originals than any of the official adaptations. We've had several probably decades of people who probably thought that Captain Nemo looked like James Mason. No, he was an Indian Prince.
KA: Right, right. Verne didn't explicitly state that until the sequel,The Mysterious Island.
AM: Right. So, it is done with respect for the material, apart from our satirical touches--in which it is sometimes done with contempt for the material. But, this is a bit different to actually, one would have thought, breeching copyright and also breeching a lot of moral obligations.
KA: And, nobody is saying thatThe League of Extraordinary Gentlemenis the official sequel toDraculaor any of the other works in question.
>>83255969
tl:dr
It's fine when I steal literary characters and change them.
It's not fine when a company uses their property because I say so.
AM: Yes, of course.The Leagueis not an adaptation. It is not me adaptingThe Invisible Man. I'm not taking those peoples' original stories. I'm against adaptation in general--and this is perhaps a different subject--but generally, and there are exceptions, I don't think it works when you adapt one story to another medium. However, there is a tradition of what we did inThe Leaguein literature. I got a great academic book some months ago and I've forgotten the name of the author but it's calledThe Afterlife of Character[ed. note - Written by David A. Brewer, 1726 - 1825]. And, you can tell it's an academic book because they didn't put an "S" after "character." You know, if they had called it "The Afterlife of Characters" that would have sounded a bit less academic! It was a very good book, and it was talking about the incredible afterlife a lot of these characters have had. I mean, Gulliver fromGulliver's Travels. There were so many books that were written about sons of Gulliver, further adventures of Gulliver, books inspired or about characters that were very similar to Gulliver. The same is true with Robinson Crusoe. That spun things likeThe Swiss Family Robinson. You know, obviously, they were a Swiss family, but it's not likely that their name was Robinson. That was a reference toRobinson Crusoe.
KA: Sure.
AM: This has gone on for centuries. And also, funnily enough, and this is one literary source from which I didn't steal, from but my friend, the writer Steve Aylett, sent me a book the other day. He'd read Hermann Hesse'sJourney to the Eastwhich was one of the few Hermann Hesse novels that I didn't read during the hippie days when it was practically compulsory to read everything that he'd ever done. But, I had never readJourney to the East. It turns out it's about a group of mythological fictional characters including Tristram Shandy and Puss in Boots, who travel around the world adventuring and are known as The League. We're going to work that in somewhere. I can't work out how, but this is a kind of tradition. It's nothing to do with comics. It has to do with grown-up books, and I'm quite happy to defend it as such.
KA: You don't see the prequels as just an extension of other writers playing in the worlds you created, in a similar fashion at all?
AM: It's not like taking the ideas wholesale. We didThe League of Extraordinary Gentlmen, because it was a story that we wanted to tell. We thought it was a good idea. We thought it would be exciting to have this huge literary and cultural mash-up. We didn't do it because we were told by our publishers to do it.
KA: Right, understood.
>>83256019
Actually I do see his point.
Like there are idiots who think WICKED affects the content of THE WIZARD OF OZ, but you can always point out that it's not an official sequel.
BEFORE WATCHMEN does claim to be part of the "official" canon. If they called it a what-if or Elseworlds story it would be closer to what LoEG is doing.
AM: Yes, I have taken jobs writing franchise characters in the past. Of course, I did Swamp Thing and loads of stuff, including Superman and Batman. But, I don't do that anymore. All that stuff was my first four or five years in the comics industry, and I hadn't really examined my thinking. But, there were things that I knew were wrong and that I didn't want to do. For example,if I had known when I'd gone into comics, that Mick Anglo's Marvelman character had not been owned by the publisherand that the publisher had not gone bankrupt as we were told--and that the Marvelman character was not in the limbo of the official receivership--then I would never have done that character. I would never have dreamed of it.
My position on all of this has hardened over the years. And, to say this is just what happens in comics--that this is just the tradition in comics--characters get passed from one creator to another and that's just how it is--why is it like that? And, where did these characters come from in the first place? Did they all spring from the brow of Zeus, fully-formed? Or, was there somebody who created them at some point? Was there a sort of Jerry Robinson or Bill Finger? Or, was there a Siegel and Schuster? Or a Martin Nodell or a Gardener Fox who got robbed? And then, of course the attitude--and I probably shared in this when I first started working for American comics--the attitude now is that it's just toys in the toy box, isn't it? You get to play with your favorite toys from the DC or Marvel toy box. Yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. Those toys were pried out of the fingers of dead men, and were pried from their families and their children. That's just wrong.
Everybody in the industry knows it's wrong and for some reason, nobody says anything about it.
It looks to me like spinelessness. It looks to me like all of these superhero comics are cowardice compensators. You've got an industry that has never stood up for itself, and where the people who did try and stand up for themselves got fired--like all of DC's competent writers during the '60s like John Broome and Gardener Fox. They suggested forming a union and at the mere suggestion of it, they were all fired. And, a generation of fan artists and writers were brought in as kind of scab labor because they would have paid to write Batman. That has pretty much delivered the kind of comic market that we have today. Like I say, it's a good industry to be out of.
Sauce
http://www.seraphemera.org/seraphemera_books/Alan_Moore_Interview.html
>>83256019
>doesn't understand the difference between public domain and corporate exploitation
What's it like to be a literal retard?
>>83256176
>It looks to me like spinelessness. It looks to me like all of these superhero comics are cowardice compensators. You've got an industry that has never stood up for itself, and where the people who did try and stand up for themselves got fired--like all of DC's competent writers during the '60s like John Broome and Gardener Fox. They suggested forming a union and at the mere suggestion of it, they were all fired. And, a generation of fan artists and writers were brought in as kind of scab labor because they would have paid to write Batman.
Based Moore.
While were on the subject whats Moore's biggest work that Wasnt based on somebody elses characters.
Top Ten?
>>83256434
V, Promethea, and From Hell.
Unless you count Jack as a character from somebody else?
>>83256434
We could argue about From Hell
>>83256434
If you don't count Watchmen because of its Charleston-riff roots, then V for Vendetta, easily.
>>83256520
Promethea was just his Glory run with the names changed.
Which makes it a pastiche of a pastiche
So Yeah V it is then
Alan Moore did nothing wrong.
>>83256529
Thinking on it further, it's fucking stupid not to count Watchmen. So what if it was inspired by old Charlton heroes? Everything is inspired by something. Superman was inspired by Gladiator; Batman was inspired by the Shadow and Zorro. It's an original story with original characters, as much as anything ever is.
>>83255969
>But there's no real comparison. InThe League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I am not adapting characters. I am flat out stealing them in what I think is an honorable way.
Why is he so perfect?
>>83256019
It's more that Moore did it because he felt he wanted to tell a good story that happen to use other characters. While DC just wanted to make money off of Watchmen.
>>83256915
Also the fact that it's hard to give a company whose business model is still based on a 75-year history of theft the benefit of the doubt.
>>83257092
Really is fucking awful. It's sad how Image really should have been the ones to really change things up but because no one there knew how to handle a company they fucked everything up.
>>83256915
...Rembrandt was an artist. But he wasn't painting art for the sake of art.
DC is a company. They have to eat.
I don't know what Alan Moore thinks comics are supposed to be. Apart from fun, hopefully a little edifying, hopefully a little instructive.
From what little I have read of 'Before Watchmen' it seemed perfectly serviceable.
>>83256895
gimme the chochi edit
yknow the one
>>83257164
What exactly are you talking about? Image is doing pretty great...
>>83256149
>the attitude now is that it's just toys in the toy box, isn't it? You get to play with your favorite toys from the DC or Marvel toy box. Yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. Those toys were pried out of the fingers of dead men, and were pried from their families and their children. That's just wrong.
Industry BTFO
>>83257182
Moore wanted a paycheck too. I'm not saying it was solely done because of the art. But Moore felt LoEG was more than just a paycheck. Before Watchmen was done for the sole reason of making money of the Watchmen name. I haven't touched Before Watchmen so I can't talk about their quality but the reason DC did it wasn't because they wanted to expand on Watchmen or try to improve on it. It was done solely to make a few extra bucks. Moore is just pissed about DC being allowed to make Before Watchmen because to him they don't own Watchmen.
>>83255969
>>83256006
>>83256038
>>83256082
I ain't reading this shit nigga
>>83255969
God damn
It's like "this nigga can NOT be serious", BUT HE IS
/co/ loves to demonize the guy but he's not wrong.
>>83256866
It was an outright satire.
Thats like calling Superduperman not based on something
>>83257092
Jesus christ.
Signing a contract and gettinf piasy about it later doesnt mean you were robbed.
Siegel and Shuster BEGGED to sell Superman
>>83255969
>implying Alan Moore "created" Watchmen
The biggest crock of shit in comics industry history is the lie that Steve Ditko wasn't the real "creator" of Watchmen. All his contributions have been ignored just because of asspained liberalfags who are asspained that he's a libertarian.
>>83257387
Industry AND characterfags BTFO
>>83257740
Keep your Rorschach boner under the table please.
>>83257235
The internet has become what Image wished it was.
Image is just a place for rich men to dump cash for vanity projects, already established creators to try to milk adapations for loot and newcomers gambling life savings to get "into the industry " and getting less than minimum wage in return
Theyre the Rebeca Blacks company of comics
>>83257607
Siegel and Schuster created one of the most famous pop-culture figures of all time. Their creation has earned DC untold millions, if not billions, of dollars over the years. And they would have died penniless if Warner hadn't been guilted into giving them a token pension.
If you think that state of affairs is okay because "they signed a contract" you are human garbage.
>>83257920
>The internet has become what Image wished it was.
Zero quality control: the place? Pretty poor wishing on behalf of Image...
> already established creators to try to milk adapations for loot and newcomers gambling life savings to get "into the industry " and getting less than minimum wage in return
I see nothing wrong with either of those, even when you're obviously exaggerating.
>Theyre the Rebeca Blacks company of comics
I don't know who that is.
>>83257740
Fun fact: Ditko has never read watchmen, and is only vaguely aware it exists.
>>83258058
Yeah, and the foundations of our nations' great cities were laid by the hands of slaves.
I understand and respect Moore's position but I don't subscribe to this philosophy of original sin.
>>83256304
So it's okay because Alan doesn't have to pay anybody for stealing their ideas?
>>83257387
>Those toys were pried out of the fingers of dead men, and were pried from their families and their children.
You did the same thing, you Northern cunt.
>>83258224
Did he, though? He's pretentious but he managed not to infringe on anyone's copyright and take their money. DC promised him he'd get the Watchmen rights back when it went out of print (no comic had ever been reprinted more than once or twice before then), and then kept it in print for decades, even during sales lulls, to keep it theirs.
>>83258322
>He's pretentious but he managed not to infringe on anyone's copyright and take their money.
Because he stole public domain characters.
> DC promised him he'd get the Watchmen rights back when it went out of print (no comic had ever been reprinted more than once or twice before then), and then kept it in print for decades, even during sales lulls, to keep it theirs.
Then he should get some better business sense.
The worst part is, he's absolutely right and nobody wants to listen.
>>83258377
>Because he stole public domain characters
Not that Anon, but by definition you can't steal public domain characters.
>>83258224
No he didn't
When he found out the creator of Miracle Man was alive and never had the chance to copyright the character he decided that all of his future profits on MM were to be directed to him and his family. He even tried to convince Marvel to remove any mention of "Alan Moore" from the books
>>83258425
So that makes it okay for him to get on his high horse because Lewis Carroll can't collect?
>>83256176
>scab labor
Reminder that Arthur Scargill was a literal Soviet agent.
Also, reminder that labour isn't spelled that way. Fuck off yank transcriber.
>>83258377
Harry Potter, Mary Poppins, Babar, Fu Manchu, James Bond, and Emma Peele are not public domain characters.
>>83258441
>He even tried to convince Marvel to remove any mention of "Alan Moore" from the books
He succeeded, I think aside from a mention in one of the introductions, all of his stories are attributed to "the original writer".
Alan is no phony.
>>83258501
Give the bastard credit, he's insane, but when he says "Take my name off of this and give my share of the money to the artist," he means it.
Then again I'm not sure he's actually penniless or anything.
>>83258377
>Steal
>Public Domain
American public education everyone!
>>83258492
And none of them are mentioned in his work, hooray!
>>83258501
I don't know how these things work, because here in Italy I often see the MM book around and Alan Moore is always on the cover
>>83258530
Alan is no different from DC. He just takes ideas from people who can't sue him.
>>83258539
Okay, you didn't come to this argument even knowing what the fuck's going on, so I'm out.
>>83258542
Probably a different publisher? For shits and giggles, send Alan pics and see what happens.
>>83256434
Constantine, V for Vendetta, Promethea, From Hell, Tom Strong, Top 10...
I mean, Watchmen is original characters, too. Compare Doctor Manhattan to Captain Atom, or even Rorschach to the Question, and it's pretty clear that they're just "inspired by", not reskins.
>>83258577
Probably, yeah, Panini handles Marvel stuff here
>>83257423
>I haven't touched Before Watchmen so I can't talk about their quality
The answer is "not great".
The better entries are irrelevant and can be ignored. The worse ones actively work against the ideas of the original Watchmen.
>>83258625
Dollar Bill, Nite-Owl, and Dr. Manhattan were all middling.
Moloch was the one I liked most, but it's not like it actually needed to exist.
Explain what he did with Harry Potter.
I don't mean to sound like one of those "it's a conspiracy!" types, but does anybody ever get the feeling there's a smear campaign against Moore?
>>83257570
>Thats like calling Superduperman not based on something
Confirmed for not having read the original Charlton characters.
The only reason Captain Atom looks anything like Doctor Manhattan nowadays is because of Doctor Manhattan. Nite Owl reminds most people more of Adam West Batman than Blue Beetle. Rorschach shares a hat and trenchcoat and an extremist philosophy (not the same one, mind you) with The Question.
>>83258683
GASP
>>83258159
Do you understand why copyright exists? It's to encourage people to create art by giving them a financial incentive of exclusive right of sale. Beyond the financial incentive, it is just that the creator of something beloved should profit from that creation.
Now, do you understand why copyright is limited? It's because copyright is an unnatural thing, imposed upon the culture by the State for the benefit of artists. Once the original artist has profited sufficiently to ensure the incentive of copyright works (and also probably after they die) the work returns to the public domain. Because ultimately culture belongs to they people.
If you understand both these things, then you will understand why using public domain characters is fine, while corporate ownership of copyright is obscene.
Good old Alan. I love that man. Remember that not all thefts are alike
>>83258683
He spent how many years being a bitter cunt, talking high and mighty while he makes erotic fan fiction of fairytale girls? Morrison is a better wizard too.
>>83258680
He made him the anti-Christ or something
Now that I think about it, that was probably a joke about how some Christian extremists reacted to the character's popularity back then
>>83257740
>The biggest crock of shit in comics industry history is the lie that Steve Ditko wasn't the real "creator" of Watchmen. All his contributions have been ignored just because of asspained liberalfags who are asspained that he's a libertarian.
...wut
>>83258539
>none of them are mentioned in his work
>>83258683
>there's a smear campaign against Moore?
Not really... here's the thing, he says hard truths that people don't wanna listen to. In this sense, his own words damage his public image more than a campaign would. Hero we need, not deserve, etc.
>>83258680
He used him as an avatar for all the ugliness and pettiness he sees in the modern world and shallow fiction, which I don't think was fair but whatever, I'm not going to feel bad for Harry. He doesn't fucking exist, and if he did he'd have magic powers and a ginger to fuck while I sit here aching from working a shit job.
>>83258377
>public domain
>steal
What.
>>83258780
>Implying Hermione wouldn't be the one trying to reason with him while Ron pissed himself and begged for his mother
Missed that one, Alan. Oh well.
>>83258754
>Morrison is a better wizard too
Grant please go and stay go.
![latest[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/MSaUi9w.png "latest[1].png")
>>83258377
>he stole public domain characters
>stole
>public domain
>>83258780
Do you know what a parody is?
>>83258743
That's a lot of high-minded garbage. The law doesn't care about "encouraging creativity". It's all business.Moore can sniff his own farts all he likes, he's playing with a toy box as much as DC is.
>>83258780
Please point to where the words "Hogwarts", "Harry Potter" or "Voldemort" were used.
>>83258798
>>83258848
I meant "steal" as in "rip-off" you illiterate faggots.
>>83258854
Supposed to be funny?
>>83258920
Oh that's completely alright then, he's just ripping off the characters without even acknowledging their creator. That's much better.
>>83258942
It's not a rip-off if it is the actual characters.
>>83257607
>Signing a contract and gettinf piasy about it later doesnt mean you were robbed.
Getting fucked and moving on doesn't mean you didn't get fucked.
>>83258104
The company that put out Rebecca Blacks video was an outfit that would make a song and music video for anyone who pays.
Image holds a similar pattern, if you have the grands to spend you get to have a comic out.
Image was mesbt to be a vehicle for creator owned books without answering to a boss and getting all your proper proceeds.
Right now its mostly used by already big names so they can get option money actual support of new creators is next to nil because of how little money the system is.
Image only works if you are already wealthy.
The internet serves to actually get out whateve books you want and keep total ownership with next to nothing paid out of pocket.
Its Ultimate creative freedom.
Im not using that to insult Image they do good books, but they have not lived to the ideal.
>>83258888
>lot of high-minded garbage
Ah, the "stupid and proud of it" kind of anon. You go, man. Don't let anyone bring you down with their "facts" or "reasoning". Your gut tells you what's what, and it's never wrong!
>>83258557
Do you just not know what public domain, intellectual property, and copyright are?
Public domain exists so that, years after the creators are dead, the characters can get new life.
I can't understand why Johnsfags get triggered so hard by people like Moore or Gaiman.
>>83259004
So then DC isn't ripping-off Moore. Glad we settled that.
>>83259014
>facts
Is that what you call your flowery rhetoric?
>>83259019
>the characters can get new life.
It's about business, anon. Just business.
>>83259011
Problem is no one fucking buys comics anymore, and it's a logistical and expensive nightmare getting LCS's to order, stock and re-stock them. You have to basically be insane to want to do monthly issue comics instead of graphic novels.
>>83258058
They literally DESIGNED Superman to sell him to a company.
They were not swindled or cheated or sneaked into anything, they desperatly wanted to sell . They chose to totally sell him to DC because they had no idea how big he would get. DC had no obligation because Superman was theres, thats what sold means. I cant sell you a horse and expect to get proceeds of all its race winnings unless that was our deal.
Hell, the only reason its a comic book is because the newspapers wouldnt take it.
>>83258975
>Supposed to be funny?
Nope, it's not a requirement.To be fair those pages are funny.
>>83259080
I've read this before, Moore is obvious, but why did people (supposedly) start hating on Gaiman and Sandman?
>>83258159
The tldr is that Moore says its ok because he just does fanfiction.
>>83258888
Believe it or not, the law does care about encouraging certain behaviors and discouraging others. That is basically its main purpose.
But I'm interested in hearing your logic anyway. Do you think copyright shouldn't exist? Or that it should be permanent?
>>83258790
And this is why I don't feel bad for Watchmen. The literary worth of the charters isn't what's important here
>>83259011
>Image holds a similar pattern, if you have the grands to spend you get to have a comic out.
That is good, is it not?
>Right now its mostly used by already big names so they can get option money actual support of new creators is next to nil because of how little money the system is.
I see, that's legit criticism. However, Image isn't the only publishing company out there, and if getting to publish a comic if you have the money to do it is their goal, that's perfectly fine.
Image has their place in the industry and I would say they do more good than bad, would you not?
>>83258975
Its satire/parody, thats fucking allowed.
Snl doesnt steal when they do a sketch.
>>83259154
>(supposedly)
Yeah, I've never seen hate for Gaiman actually.
>>83259128
So are you against they very IDEA of public domain?
So no Dracula or Sherlock Holmes stories shoyld ever be made?
>>83258975
>Supposed to be funny?
Nnnnno? Parody isn't always comedic.
>>83258942
>I meant "steal" as in "rip-off" you illiterate faggots.
That's not what "rip-off" means, anon. A "rip-off" is when you produce a new work designed solely to exploit the brand visibility of an existing or upcoming product, largely by confusing consumers or being cheaper in exchange for lower quality - like creating Transmorphers while Transformers is on the cinema.
By contrast, the Sherlock movies starring RDJ are not "rip-offs" of Conan Doyle's work.
>people actually defend DC and Marvel
>even in the year our Lord 2016, where they can get their capeshit fix from Valiant
Blows my fucking mind it does.
>>83259290
He's not respectful to the characters or the creators wishes. I don't think J.M Barry would have appreciated Wendy being used for porn no matter how "tasteful" Moore thinks it is
>>83259080
>I can't understand why Johnsfags get triggered so hard by people like Moore or Gaiman.
The latter two produce actual art instead of just bashing their favourite action figures together and writing down the results. This leaves fans of the former feeling insecure and aggressive.
>>83256304
>it's okay because the original authors are dead!
>it's not okay for a company to use what they own tho
No anon you are the fucking retard.
>>83259343
>So are you against they very IDEA of public domain?
No, you must be confusing my posts with some other anon's.For the record I'm actually for the idea of public domain beginning when the creator dies, regardless of current ownership.
![Transmorphers[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gFVE7KD.jpg "Transmorphers[1].jpg")
>>83259345
>creating Transmorphers while Transformers is on the cinema
wait that's an actual thing
>>83259397
You can like all of them. I wont stop reading Morrison because Moore told me not to
>>83259228
I never said they didnt. I said the internet better serves the ideal of Image than Image does .
>>83259446
That's terrible. "Son, I've written a book I think will put you through college and sent it to the publisher, they're very excited about it." "That's great, dad! Let's go out and have dinner to celebrate. OH NO!" "I've been hit by a bus and am dead! Aieee!"
Then the publisher prints it, makes millions, other publishers do the same because nobody has a copyright it, and the son gets a job at Burger King.
Asshole.
>>83259377
How the hell is anyone supposed to get editorial approval from dead people?
Do you know what Fair Use is?
>>83259582
I think leaving rights in wills is allowed
>>83258683
he slags off a company that manchildren for some stupid fucking reason feel loyal to. of course they'll shit talk him.
>>83259418
So do you think public domain shouldn't exist? Or that artists don't deserve control of and compensation for their work during their lifetime?
Could all you fanboys try to articulate a coherent position instead of making obvious false equivalencies?
>>83259640
Why does it have to be either of those pants-shittingly stupid extremes?
>>83259080
they know Johns will never produce work within spitting distance of shit like Watchmen or Sandman.
He's just an okay cape writer. and that is fine.
>>83259640
He is free to use whatever he wants but it doesn't change the fact that he is only using those characters because they are popoular fictional characters.
He is selling fan fiction and saying it's fine because the authors are dead and somehow this makes it more morally acceptable than DC using characters they legally own.
At the end of the day it's the same thing, using characters created by others without the permission of the original authors.
Copyright laws aren't the point of the discussion.
>>83259512
But I don't know if that was the ideal of Image. The ideal of Image I believe was creative freedom and no interference from above, not creative fostering. I don't know if any publisher's mission is.
I mean, even if it was, I was already reading comics when Image was born and I mostly remember it feeling like a place where authors would unleash their full potential. Sometimes good, mostly bad.
There is nothing wrong in what you said, what I'm taking issue is mentioning Image, when Image doesn't stand for what you think it does and is doing a good job on their own.
>>83259582
The profit from that book can be inherited to the son, but any further works based on that book, using the characters or settings from that book shouldn't, because clearly the creator isn't involved.
I'm clearly not in charge of any of this shit so don't get too worked up.
Wait a second didnt Moore re-use the same setting he did in Neonomicon for his current comic called Providence ?
He is basically writing a prequel for a book.
>>83259880
It's also a semi-sequel and spiritual sister to League
>>83256087
In absolute fairness, Before Watchmen doesn't do shit to Watchmen
Watchmen is right there. It hasn't changed.
Nothing about this picture right here changes a damn thing about Watchmen.
>>83259801
>Popular characters
>Alan Qatermain, Captain Nemo,John Carter...
Loeg is lit major family guy.
Jekyl Hyde is literally the one mainstream character of the leauge
Who the fuck knows who Mina Nurray is?
>>83259798
But Watchmen and the Sandman are also cape books.
And honestly SCW is a masterpiece>>83259849
Hard to unleash your full potential when you need to put up ten grand just to play ball.
>>83259954
>Who the fuck knows who Mina Nurray is?
literally anyone who's read the most famous vampire story of all time? Or any of its adaptations?
>inb4 lel my misspelling was intentional I was only pretending to be retarded
>>83259954
Anyone who read Dracula you idiot.
>>83259154
Lex Luthor's Action Comic after Johns tried to push his idea of Death. Gaimanfags get pissed, and they got what they wanted, but johnsfags then were insulted,
>>83255969
>no see it's ok when I do it because I'm Alan Moore
Washed up hack is still a hypocrite, full story at 11
![[Slapping and Clapping intensifies].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gQaUYRO.jpg "[Slapping and Clapping intensifies].jpg")
>>83260032
>Sandman is a cape book
wat
>>83260138
It literally has Batman in it senpai
it takes place in the DC universe proper.
>>83260032
Johns is just a cape writter doesnt mean the other guys are not.But Johns has NEVER done anything as good as whatever happened to the man of tomorrow or whatever happened to the caped crusader and just by looking at his modern work it's clear he is already forgot how to do a good story.
>>83260115
Didn't he rewrite it so Death was only Death for nice people or some bullshit?
>>83260268
And Alan Moore is a bitter old pornographer coasting by on work he did in the 80's.
>>83260126
How is Moore a Hack? Why are Johnsfags so butthurt? Moore is an angry cunt bu the guy's shit can make better stories than Rebirth
>>83259911
How so?
>>83260318
>coasting by on work he did in the 80's.
At least he has work he can coast by on
>>83259801
Copyright laws are entirely relevant. They set the terms of public domain, and I don't see how you can talk about TLoEG in this context without talking about public domain.
The law isn't always right. DC legally owns Watchmen, but they have no moral right to it, because they didn't create it. You can say "well, Moore shouldn't have signed the contract," but we both know that we don't live in a perfect world where corporations and contractors always negotiate on equal terms. And we never will until people stop acting like the way Marvel and DC do business is okay.
By the way, what's your position on the unprecedented measures DC used to maintain the rights to Watchmen by keeping it perpetually in print even when sales didn't justify it? Is it okay as long as it obeys the letter of the contract, even if it's dishonest?
>>83260323
>Moore is an angry cunt bu the guy's shit can make better stories than Rebirth
I see someone's asking for a storytime of Neonomicon.
>>83260318
>he hasn't read Providence
>>83260358
>semi-sequel
characters from Neonomicon show up and it's implied that Providence isCthulhu creating a new world retroactively
>League
All of Lovecraft exists and interacts
His comic in Cinema Purgatorio was like a bad creepypasta he should be embarrassed
>>83260208
I realize that, but 90% of Sandman has nothing to do with superheroes. They only appear in volume 1 and 10 iirc.
>>83260397
>moral rights
That's a retarded argument if Moore wanted to own the characters he should have signed a different contract
>>83260441
>Providence
More Lovecraft mythos and rape? I'll pass.
>>83260410
We like Neonomicon.
>>83260397
so if Alan Moore was dead there would be no problem in using Watchmen?
>>83260318
And? Whats wrong with that?
When moore was 32 he was working on Watchmen and already started V for vendetta, and swamp thing
When he was 42 he was working in SUPREME.
At age 43 Johns was working on Darkseid War.
>>83260410
Wasn't Neonomicon okay outside of the fish-rape?
>>83260493
>he doesn't remember Hector Hall
>he doesn't remember that Sandman literally affected canon of the rest of the DC universe across its books
>>83258141
Great analogy.
But the slaves are dead. the leaders are dead, the natio changed.
Moore lives, the guys responsible most are alive, DC hasnt changed.
>>83260615
near the entire book is fish rape
so technically, yes.
>>83260057
>>83260066
Dracula is the only character in dracula who is mainstream popular.
In fact most peple who know of Dracula never read the novel.
Not unsimilar to modern superheroes and there films in fact
>>83257740
Ditko doesn’t give a shit he is still doing what he loves best, making his own comics and being left the fuck alone while doing it.
>>83260305
He was trying to do the weismman thing from Captain Atom. And then the whole "darkseid captured death or at least part of it". There was a lot of shitpost on that storytime.
>>83260268
Whatever happened to the man of tommorow is steaming shit.
Its Ultimatum for silver age superman with really poor plotting.
Worst thing Moore has writte that I know of.
>>83260410
How is that not better than Rebirth?
Rebirth is a piece of crap the only good things are the consequences. But in general is just another FCBD comic.
>>83260558
Moore signed a contract that would let him own the characters! DC used a loophole to make it so they would never get to that phase of the agreement, and it was a practice with nearly no precedence, are we going to mock Moore for not being able to predict the future?
>>83260661
Well I can tell YOU'VE never read Dracula, for one
And you appear to have never seen a movie or any other adaptation either.
Fucking moron.
>>83260701
>>83259219
That shows you didnt worked something from your own.
Sad little sheep anon.
>>83260701
Quality Cereal post
>>83260115
>>83260305
Those were Greg Weisman and Paul Cornell.
This is a Crisis on Infinite Wrong.
Taking two books by two different folk, making up what they did AND attributing them to a third unrealated creator.
Jesus
>>83260615
>Fish rapoe
Fucking hell I like Moore but can he just stop with the fucking rape. It's shit like this that makes it easy for people to b8 and call him a hack
>>83260714
It's in the contract he should have considered that. Did he not read it closely or think before he signed? Moore isn't a victim he signed it himself
>>83260724
even weeboos would agree with you
>>83260794
What? He didn't respect Harry Potter so why should I respect Watchmen.
Is it OK to shit on somebody elses work just because you don't like it but then cry when other people use yours?
>>83260397
Sales did justify it because if they went out of print, they lost it forever.
Seriously though, surprised no one noticed such an obvius work around at the time.
>>83260615
No it wasn't.
Moore had admitted he hadn't read a lot of Lovecraft at that point and it shows.
It's like we went through a Lovecraft encyclopedia and started throwing terms out when he felt like it.
Neonomicon is shit.
But Providence is so good...it makes it better
>>83260810
Blackest Night Used Weisman idea of Death, and then Johns repeated it in Darkseid War.
>>83260867
>>83260724
What is the most recent mass media apearance of Mina Nurray?
Aside from the horrid LXG itself
>>83260558
I can't tell if you're actually an edgy teen who thinks he's smart for realizing that the world isn't fair, or just a desperate cape fan grasping at any available straw to avoid grappling with the injustices that Marvel and DC's empires are built on.
>>83260590
I think an author's heirs have some right to the profits in the event of premature death. If Watchmen were in the public domain I would have no problem with anyone using it, because that's what the public domain is for and I think it's a good thing.
>>83260953
Probably that Dracula TV show with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers after The Tudors ended. So 2014.
>>83260953
>I've been shown to be a fucking retard but I'm committed to this argument now
It's okay anon, you can just close and hide this thread and in a couple of hours you'll have entirely forgotten how you looked like a retard
Also for fuck sakes, it's Mina Murray.
And several. Dracula Untold, Penny Dreadful, Dance in the Vampire Bund...
>>83260778
>>83260799
This is not bait.
I could write an entire book on how shitty that book is.
I think I did an annoted story time a while back.
The entire book is
1. Insert gooy silver age character
2. They now kill and die
3.Repeat
Thats its entire premise its a superhero slasher film, and slasher films tend to suck.
Aside from that, the plot is on rails with a shit ton of character idioation, plot holes and general contortions of the plot to get it to work.
And the ending literally says the very idea of Superman was a bad idea.
Its almost a paraody of the cliche people have of Moore.
Its really bad.
>>83261024
>marvel and DC's empires
You take funny books way too seriously the comic book industry is pitiful
>>83260927
Death wasnt even IN Blackest Night.
And Nekron didnt even follow the "Weisman" rules. Hell, he wasnt even death in that book!
Does anyone here read?
>>83261087
>I could write an entire book on how shitty that book is.
Well, go ahead.
>>83260953
>>83261027
Dracula untold
>>83261143
That was also in 2014.
>>83261087
>1. Insert gooy silver age character
>2. They now kill and die
>3.Repeat
Isn't that Johns?
>>83260953
Mina Murray is in the current Showtime series Penny Dreadful,
>>83261124
>Hell, he wasnt even death in that book!
Yeah, we know, that's the whole point of She being in Action Comics. Blackest night was a retarded mess. God, remember the new origin of life?
>>83261024
There is no injustice in this case. Moore made a decision he regretted and whined about for decades
>>83261074
>>83261027
>>83261143
Guys. I know we value power levels but she is not well known.
The dudes entire premise that loeg was taking advantage of well known charaters was faulty, because Alan himself noted he picked mostly obscure shit.
Even the big names like Mycroft, Mauareu and Dracula are behind the scenes or plot tools, rather than full fledged characters.
Alan fucking Quatermain for gods sakes .
>>83261190
I knew it, i just didnt want anyone to claim my waifu
>>83261121
The power of DC and (especially) Marvel isn't in funny books. You know that.
>>83261179
Yes, except Johns revives them and then sets up a painfully artificial nostalgia moment.
>>83261087
>And the ending literally says the very idea of Superman was a bad idea.
Characterfag got triggerd lmao
>>83260323
>Imediately assuming that the guy was a Johnsfag solely because he is criticizing Moore.
So who's butthurt here?
>>83255969
As someone who lives in North Hampton, I've seen Moore about the town, on a good day, he's one of the nicest bongs in all of Britannia, but on a bad day, he's going to everyone and letting out all of his rage
>>83261228
>Alan fucking Quatermain for gods sakes .
How is that obscure?
The whole point is that is a well known character. Look i seriously can't understand that in a board like this people seem to think is normal not to read classics, even if you didnt had to do it in school but for fucks sake, even /tv/ is better than this.
>>83261087
>And the ending literally says the very idea of Superman was a bad idea.
>>83261335
Does he dress like a wizard
>>83261269
What power? Are you talking about movies? How are they powerful?
>>83261374
No, but he looks like a mystical hobo a lot of the time.
>>83261228
I'll admit Alan Quatermain is -kinda- obscure. Most people if they HAVE heard of him go 'that's the guy who George Lucas totally ripped off to make Indiana Jones right' which is pretty damn inaccurate (fuck Cracked).
If you're lucky you'll find someone who remembers the movies from the 80s.reminder that Chamberlain was buttfucking the guy playing his brother in the sequel to this movie
>>83261374
Speaking of which, does anybody have the comic strip where Moore is dressed like a stereotypical wizard and is putting a curse on DC comics?
>>83257520
But he's not right either....
Speaking of Dracula and respecting the creator and their families how do you guys feel about Dracula The Undead written by Dacre Stocker being pushed as an official sequel to the book?
>>83258425
And DC didn't steal anything by a legal definition either. We obviously aren't using legal definitions here you sack of shit.
>>83256355
>>83256895
>based
>perfect
This is what we're calling SJWs now?
>>83258711
Nite Owl is a pretty goddamn close copy. The only reason people hone in on Batman is because normalfags don't know who the fucking Blue Beetle is.
>>83261405
Are you seriously unaware that money gives you power?
>>83261630
Money gives you advanced hoarding abilities and peace of mind. It does not give you power.
>>83261087
>Aside from that, the plot is on rails with a shit ton of character idioation, plot holes and general contortions of the plot to get it to work.
Gosh, almost as if the plot was being manipulated by some 5th dimensional imp! Oh wait.
>>83261676
Come on mate...
>>83261676
You're right, it's not like Super-PACs and rich organizations hold power in our very government right now, money has nothing to do with that.
>>83261630
Does Moore have a lot of money or does he have to pay alimony to his lesbian ex wife?
>>83261630
Moore still gets paid for watchmen. What is the issue?
>>83260794
>>83260879
A better comparison would probably be what DC's doing right now with Rebirth. They're sort of taking Doc Manhattan to task for the perceived effect that Watchmen had on comics, and on DC in particular. And like the Harry Potter analogy, it's probably not entirely fair, but it's still an interesting criticism of pop culture through the burning of much-loved effigies.
>>83260821
But that's how you weed out the plebs easily. Like >>83260570
>>83262046
Moore is just a smelly old pornographer. Accept it.
>>83262018
At least Johns had the decency of saying that Manhattan isn't an actual villain and that he's just an entity that represents a cynical point of view because that's how his world was. Moore turned Harry Potter into an antichrist that could shoot lightning out of his dick.
>>83262224
Well, he plainly says so himself. I don't see the problem.
>>83262224
He may be all of those things (I haven't smelled him, personally.) But he is not JUST those things.
>>83261621
He's a little bit like Batman. He has the whole "rich parents die and leave him an inheritance he used to fund his crimefighting activities" angle. Everything else is pure Ted, though.
>minimal bitching when Constantine and Swamp Thing are put into the DCU
>absolutely no one says a thing when the Endless show up briefly too
>but suddenly when Watchmen is canonized people flip their shit and argue about the sanctity of these characters despite them being transparent rip-offs of the Charlton heroes and despite the fact that Watchmen has always been a DC book so any relationship it might have to the multiverse would make complete sense
Basically everything I've learned this week since Rebirth has boiled down to Watchmen being too sacred to even breathe on while other properties that are just as good and perhaps even better can go to hell if the same thing happens to them.
I couldn't make it through the first couple of sentences before I was bored
>>83263388
Not that I dislike Rebirth -- I enjoyed it quite a bit -- but Constantine, Swamp Thing, and the Endless were always connected explicitly to DC properties. Watchmen was only sort of nominally inspired by DC characters by way of Charlton. It would be more like if Transmetropolitan got forced into mainline DC.
>>83263388
>minimal bitching when Constantine and Swamp Thing are put into the DCU
Since day one? Why would anyone complain about that.
>>83262538
well yes
he's also a bitter self-righteous tool
>>83260867
You've got to have read or watched an adaptation of Dracula to understand the importance ofSHE
>>83255969
>barely-educated thug
At least the prick is honest.
>>83263479
Do you really think your inability to read more than two sentences at a time makes you cool and aloof rather than a literal retard?
>>83259168
So if Marvel and DC came out and finally admitted that they're publishing fanfiction it would be okay?
>>83263608
And a great writer. Don't forget!
>>83263608
And the most influential comic book creator since Jack Kirby.
>>83263388
Swamp Thing, Constantine and the Endless were always in the DCU though.
>>83263771
He's an alright writer who has a major problem writing endings to stories. That makes him about... Scott Snyder tier tbqh.
>>83263786
That's not a good thing, when you look at the state of modern comics.
>>83263846
>when you look at the state of modern comics
By "comics", do you mean "capeshit"?
>>83263388
>it's a oneshot story, it doesn't need a sequel!
>moore's characters are way too cerebral for dc's. not one single hero is on rorschach's level intellectually, let alone manhattan's.
>dc did enough to alan moore, this is just spitting on his defiled corpse.
>watchmen exists as a comic in the dc universe, why would it suddenly be its own world?
I overheard all of this from a group of tabletop players who were discussing Rebirth when I went to my comic store on Thursday, so the bitching isn't just contained to /co/.
>>83263846
Stop with this "I'm so cool and different because I don't like Alan Moore" hipster bullshit. Nobody's buying it and you just sound desperate.
>>83263846
>He's an alright writer
Speaking from someone whose only exposure to Moore was Watchmen and TKJ, what other objectively good stories has he written? I genuinely want to learn more about this dude.
>>83264040
The best story he ever wrote was V for Vendetta.
TKJ was not objectively good.
>>83263802
To be honest, I would think it was stupid if they made the Endless a major part of a big storyline too. Yes, they're technically in the DCU, but they've been essentially out of it for so long that it would have the same feeling of desperately grasping at something popular to get attention that this Watchmen bullshit does.
A minor reference is a totally different thing though.
>>83264040
"Objectively" is a dubious term, especially when it comes to art. But I'd recommend Tom Strong, Top Ten, From Hell, his run on Swamp Thing and V For Vendetta.
>>83264040
From Hell is fucking brilliant, up there with Watchmen in quality.
>>83264040
His run on Swamp Thing is more or less universally agreed to be great. V for Vendetta is pretty well liked, too. And I love The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but some people take issue with it in ways that are explained all throughout this thread.I haven't read From Hell because the lettering makes my eyes bleed, but I hear it's really good.
>>83264040
Providence
>>83264040
Almost everything he's ever written is above average, so it depends what you want.
>V for Vendetta
>From Hell
>Miracle/Marvelman
>Swamp Thing
>Tom Strong
>Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
>League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
All should be mandatory readings for any comic book fan, and his current Providence is god tier.
>>83264083
>TKJ was not objectively good
Why not?
>>83256149
>Was there a sort of Jerry Robinson or Bill Finger?
You cheeky bastard
>>83263894
> it doesn't need a sequel!
This is what bothers me the most. You have an emotional moment with Wally and Barry, the return of several beloved characters, multiple themes that include legacy and the importance of optimism and hope, the foundations laid for the future of the dc universe, and story that acknowledges the entire history of the dc universe, and the only thing people care about it's the watchmen reveal, to the point where they refer to it as a sequel. Nevermind everything else.
>>83263998
>I like the writers I'm supposed to like
Good goy.
>>83264243
>You have an emotional moment with Wally and Barry, the return of several beloved characters, multiple themes that include legacy and the importance of optimism and hope, the foundations laid for the future of the dc universe
Maybe people can see through those gimmicks?
Returning characters, "emotional" moments? Yawn, if DC took all those away for a sales gimmick, and is bringing them back for another sales gimmick... you can see where this is going, no?
I don't know, I could be giving people too much credit.
>>83264214
nayrt, but i think it relies too much on shock value instead of real substance, and it's pretty much responsible for turning the joker into an edgemaster mass murderer.
i think some people are discouraged too by the fact that it's such a simple story with very simple themes, unlike the majority of moore's other work. i don't think that's a bad thing at all, though; it's a nice, easy read and a pretty good window into the changes dc was putting their characters through at the time to make them darker, which would lead to burton's batman, then to btas, etc.
>>83264371
Not like the Watchmen thing isn't a sales gimmick too.
>>83264243
>multiple themes that include legacy and the importance of optimism and hope, the foundations laid for the future of the dc universe, and story that acknowledges the entire history of the dc universe
Absolutely disgusting, especially with Johns at the helm.
>>83264435
True. It will probably all succeed, nostalgia sells, for a while.
>>83264371
The "gimmick" here is that they're bringing back a beloved setting and history, and scrapping one that was received lukewarmly. It's only "sales" in that people want to buy things they enjoy.
I guess I don't see where the cynicism is coming from. Are you aghast at people wanting things?
>>83264256
Sounding even more desperate there.
>>83256006
>I took this character that, frankly, at the time when we brought outThe Leaguewas almost entirely forgotten except by the perhaps half-a-dozen people who actually belonged toRider Haggard Society.
Except for, y'know, those two Richard Chamberlain movies they made to ride the Indiana Jones money train.
>>83255969
>American comic industry
Well, I always wonder when will this shit die, everything about it after 2000 is just a pile of shit especially from the big 2 like DC and Marvel.
>>83256718
Halo Jones
>>83264621
>le comic industry must die maymay
Moorefriends, looking past all the legal bullshit DC and Moore have went though and just focusing on the creative aspect, what are your thoughts on DC actually WRITING the Watchmen characters? I keep hearing the same old song and dance about how bad it is that they're USING them from a corporate standpoint, but no one ever talks about how it's giving other writers, some of whom were inspired by Moore to go into the business, the opportunity to write these characters in interesting new ways that may only be possible in the new setting.
Do you think that Moore is the only one who can write them well?
>>83258827
>Suggesting that Alan Moore would read modern trash like Harry Potter.
