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Is the Mutant Massacre the reason modern comics suck so much? Prior to the Mutant Massacre there had been 18 cross over events in the entire history of Marvel (not counting things like stand alone graphic novel cross overs).
After Marvel saw how much cash they could make they averaged over 2 events a year and had at least 1 event every year other than 2003
That's like saying Watchmen and DKR are bad because their popularity to 90s edgy extreme comics.
Most modern crossovers are the only important books while the non crossover issues simply uphold the status quo. Mutant Massacre actually gave the books direction. You left Mutant Massacre wanting to pick up X-Men and X-Factor.
Inferno was even better.
What ruined these crossovers was publishers spamming them in the 90s.
>>83157975
The Mutant Massacre was what really turned marketing on to the commercial potential of yearly (and even twice-yearly) crossover events.
There's an old interview with Bob Harras from 1993 (back when he was still the lead X-books editor) where he expressed a very negative opinion about the idea of annual crossovers (and he also blamed Mutant Massacre for starting the trend). Anyway, Harras was pretty unsatisfied with how the X-Cutioner's Saga crossover was executed, and thought that the X-books should take maybe a two-year break from having crossovers (this didn't happen, of course).
I think the interview can be found in the Wizard: X-Men Turn Thirty special. It's all is pretty ironic, considering that Harras pretty much drove Marvel into the ground with crossovers once he became editor-in-chief and his later role with DC's New 52.
>>83158156
>Mutant Massacre actually gave the books direction. You left Mutant Massacre wanting to pick up X-Men and X-Factor.
One of the key differences between Mutant Massacre and all the other X-book crossovers that came afterwards is the fact that Mutant Massacre was an internally developed project—the whole thing came about because the creative teams and the editors actually wanted to do it, and they collectively came up with the idea for the crossover in the first place.
All the X-book crossovers after that were externally motivated. Marvel's marketing department saw how successful Mutant Massacre was so they tasked the X-office with coming up with an annual crossover every year since, whether it made sense within the ongoing individual books or not. It disrupted all sorts of long-term plots that Chris Claremont and Louise Simonson had in place for the X-books.
By 1992 or so (after Claremont and Simonson had both quit Marvel), it got to the point that the X-book writers weren't really plotting the books individually anymore. They'd go on this yearly retreat with Harras and his assistant editors and they'd hammer out a year's worth of plots, all built around selling that year's crossover (as opposed to, you know, telling a solid, self-contained serial narrative). It got so bad that Peter David quit X-Factor (he said something along the lines of "I can't work this way"). I interviewed Larry Hama some time back (he was Wolverine's writer during most of the 1990s) and he described the collective writing process as being akin to drafting a bill in Congress, and how he really had no hand in the plotting on Wolverine anymore (he was pretty much relegated to just writing dialogue), even though he was still credited as the book's writer.
>>83159274
Wait does Wolverine take place concurrent to xmen? I didn't get to that part in continuity yet and assumed it took place before he joined the Xmen
>>83159389
When the original Wolverine ongoing series launched in 1988, the earliest stories were vaguely out of current continuity. They occupied this nebulous space where you weren't sure when they actually happened, but it didn't really matter. You had some contextual clues, though. For example, Hulk (in his mid-/late-1980s Joe Fixit persona) showed up in issue #7 and #8, so you know that the stories weren't set too far back in Wolverine's past—if nothing else, it told you that the stories occurred after Wolverine joined the X-Men.
By late 1990/early 1991, though, the Wolverine series was more or less syncing up with the main X-stable continuity. By issue #48 or so, it was pretty much concurrent with main X-stable continuity. IIRC, the events depicted in Wolverine #50 happened in between the end of X-Men #3 and the beginning of X-Men #4 (Wolverine #50 helps explain why Logan was wearing his brown costume in X-Men #3, but had reverted to his yellow costume in X-Men #4).
Making this even more confusing: X-Men #1–#7 all occur before Uncanny X-Men #281, even though X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #281 came out in the same month... Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, and Wolverine didn't sync up until several months later).
>>83160303
Do you know what issue is the last wolverine issue where jubilee appears? I figure wolverine is the only solo ongoing that I am going to read, but I plan on only reading up to the point where jubilee stops appearing and the book goes to shit (what ever happens later) as I am more interested in the team stuff but I understand wolverine is a good book, at least in the begining
>>83160716
Jubilee appears regularly as a supporting character between issues #40–#75. After that, she appears somewhat sporadically.
Personally, I'd put the cut-off for the "good" solo Wolverine issues at around issue #65. Quality drops off a cliff after that and the later issues are only worth reading if you want to see some of Leinil Francis Yu's earliest mainstream comics work (he becomes the regular penciler by issue #113)—he wasn't outstanding back then, but you could see the potential. It's amazing to see how far he has progressed as an artist.
>>83159274
>By 1992 or so (after Claremont and Simonson had both quit Marvel)
I stopped enjoying X-Men when it became an annual massacre machine and quit reading right around the time he left and it became the All-New, All-Ninja Psylocke Traveling Show.
So far I haven't seen evidence I made a rash decision.
No it was Inferno. Claremont tried to make it so elaborate and off putting it would kill crossovers and the opposite happened.
>>83161517
There's some good stuff in the early 90's. I like the 11 Jim Lee X-Men issues, Larry Hama's Wolverine with Silvestri and Texeira, and the Whilce Portacio issues of Uncanny
>>83161517
there is some good stuff from the year 2000 on, but often there are no good x books being published, or at most, only 1 of the many being published is good.
from 2000 on I like Morrison's New X-Men and Gillen's Uncanny X-men a lot.
Morrisons run wasnt interrupted by events in its 4 years.
>>83161657
It's honestly remarkable how decent the first 11 Lee issues are for something that was so clearly created because Lee was acting like a spoiled brat and wanted Claremont off writing so he could write his own junk.
>>83161657
Yeah, that's more or less where I stopped reading the X-books regularly, myself. I stopped reading X-Men at #11, Uncanny X-Men at #290, Wolverine at #65, and X-Factor at #81 (never really got into X-Force). Those issues make for good cut-off points because they end primary plots while leaving relatively little in the way of unresolved subplots (except for the whole X-traitor thing, but I never really cared for that subplot anyway, even less so now, once I learned how Harras resolved it).
Yeah I tend to use when Romita leaves the X-Books as my reason to as well.
Which is right at the beginning of Mutant Massacre.
>>83162922
>except for the whole X-traitor thing, but I never really cared for that subplot anyway
Don't worry, it was probably just Gambit anyway
>>83163099
I think it's worth going through to Fall of the Mutants but that's me
>tfw BWS didn't finish the Lifedeath trilogy
>>83163099
>>83163189
I like the Silvestri era
How can you not love The Reavers, they just scream bad guys. A bunch of bigoted cyborgs hanging out in the Australian outback until the X-Men steal their base
>>83163484
>How can you not love The Reavers
because I didn't like a Mad Max ripoff full of screaming yabbos and thought overall the outback was a stupid setting
>>83161133
>e wasn't outstanding back then, but you could see the potential
I'd say he was better back then.
>>83162597
I remember the creative dispute between Lee and Claremont (and to less of an extent, between Portacio and Claremont) could be boiled down to the fact that Lee and Portacio wanted to revisit their favorite Claremont stories. Lee wanted to do more Sh'iar stuff, Portacio wanted to do something similar to the Mutant Massacre stuff, etc., but Claremont wanted to do something else.
They quickly patched things up after Lee and Portacio left Marvel to help start Image Comics, though. Claremont and Portacio were actually going to collaborate on an original series called Huntsman, but then that whole tragedy with Portacio's sister happened and Portacio basically disappeared from comics for a couple of years to sort of find himself and rekindle his love for comics.
Huntsman did appear as a guest star in issues #10–#13 of Jim Lee's WildCATS where Claremont was a guest writer, though, so it's not like the idea was totally shelved.
>>83163901
I feel like Claremont had way more of a beef with Harras than Lee or Portacio
>>83163749
Eh, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point. I think Yu's rendering skills have improved significantly since his days on Wolverine. I will concede, though, that he's shown minimal, if any, improvement as a visual storyteller. He still "stages" panels like it was 1996 or something. There's not a lot of naturalism with the way he composes his scenes. I wish he'd take a film course or something, just to expand his storytelling vocabulary.
>>83164274
Seems that way in retrospect.
Here's a quote about Bob Harras and his unpopular practices as an editor, from former New Mutants/X-Factor writer Louise Simonson:
>… what [the editor] did to me, to Chris Claremont, to [X-Factor writer] Peter David, and to [Wolverine writer] Jo Duffy was to nickel-and-dime us to death. He would change plots and blame it on the artists. He would change dialogue, and then say ‘I’m sorry but I tried to call you and you weren’t home’ or ‘I’ll be sure to tell you next time.’ He would change some of the dialogue but not the other parts, so the things people said wouldn’t make sense.
source: http://thegeeksverse.com/2016/05/24/leaving-proof-308-state-secrets-on-chris-claremonts-aborted-plans-for-wolverine/
Even as a crossover, the titles could be read without needing to read others - you'd be much better off arguing that Secret Wars I (or II) and editorially enforced material (X-Factor vol 1 also) was the beginning of the end of that era, but eh.
There wasn't really an actual crossover until X-Tinction Agenda. That was what, five years later?
Also, I don't believe anyone has ever argued FOR Inferno, it was a pretty much panned event. But still, hardly a crossover when you could read each title individually and get the full story.
