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>>7708094

>>7708097
Thanks for proving me right man.

>>7708097
/thread

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>>7708097

>>7708094
I like how vegans like their shit to always look like real meat. Make it into green paste like it is.

>>7708112
thats rich, thanks

Plenty of animals die making most everything you have in your house, not to mention the human beings that work near slave labor on your clothes and electronics. Being a vegan for moral reasons is such a half measure. Its the food equivalent of getting mad at racists on twitter but never doing anything to improve inner city life. Patting yourself on the back for doing basically nothing.

I love lots of vegan food and cook them fairly often, but in my opinion all of the fake meat products are garbage. The whole "pretend you are eating normal food" meme is a cancer on vegan food.

>>7708119
Well yeah, most of them still like meat. Not liking the taste of meat isn't the point.

>>7708126
I agree it's a half measure, but the argument "you're still doing bad things so what's the point of making this small change?" isn't even one.

It's something small that you can cut out of your daily life that eases up on your contribution to whatever it is you consider bad. Whether it's being vegan, recycling, using green energy, whatever the fuck.

You realize that if everyone thought that nothing we do matters, we'd be even worse off in general today.

>>7708126
The point is to minimize the impact. Regardless deliberately going out of your way to raise life for slaughter can be very well argued as very immoral

As long as somebody isn't chewing my ass for eating what I eat and don't eat then - I'm cool. I don't give a shit about scrutinizing your lifestyle choices. If I have to listen to the morality of it all then I'll just fuck off but not judge - I'm not interested in burning bridges. Food should bring people together.

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>>7708157
OP here, I don't even want to argue whether or not it's immoral. Plenty of people don't give a shit about that and roll their eyes to it. The main thing I want to get at is the odd justification that lots of people do, instead of admitting flat out that continuing to eat meat is out of comfort and nothing else.

Which it is. It's natural to get angry towards people trying to push their lifestyle on others, so the reaction is to joke about it and ignore it.

I feel like vegans in general that stoop to the people they're trying to convince's level just make things worse. They don't see it your way and just make fun of you? That's cool, just keep at your own business, never lose your head when discussing it, and just use fucking logic instead of devolving into shitpost contests (Not saying you're doing that though)

>>7708136
So, basically, you just want to be a smug, sanctimonious asshole and look down your nose at people.

Meat tastes good. I don't give a fuck how it's made. Someone or something suffers or dies to make basically everything I use. That's how the world works. It's fucked up, but it's reality. The very act of eating is essentially stealing the life force from another living being in order to extend your own life slightly. If that shit was being done in a movie, the person doing it would be played by Christopher Lee, and he would be called Professor Diablo or some shit like that.

Some poor Chinese kid made the tablet I'm typing on now. He barely got paid and worked in horrible conditions. Some Mexican picked the fruit I'm gonna eat later tonight. He stood out in the hot sun all day and was exposed to pesticides and will make almost no money. In order to live, you must exploit others weaker than you. That's how things are. Shit sucks, but we all do it and that will never change.

>>7708171
Wew, that's quite a leap there

>>7708151
>>7708157
I have no issue with people for not wanting to be part of the severely problematic factory farm machine. I get that, but the whole "I am making a difference" thing irks me. Because you arent making a difference, and humanity could never feed itself without arguably immorral meat farming practices.

>>7708181
One splash of water hitting the bank rather than flowing with the river and down the waterfall hardly changes the conditions of the lake below.

>>7708178
Not really, no.

I thought you wanted to discuss things, not just completely dismiss posts without giving any reasoning whatsoever? I thought you weren't here to just make fun of people who eat meat in order to satisfy your own ego?

Guess not.

>>7708171
Well, again you're going the route of "Other things you do contribute to bad shit so what's the point?" which is dumb.

You also made a leap into thinking I'm being smug and sanctimonious. What I eat on a daily basis compared to those that eat meat doesn't contribute to a fucked up practice.

I can't understand people that actually think the ones making an attempt to do something better are the ones being assholes.

>>7708181
Again, the argument of it's one person so it doesn't make a difference that holds absolutely no water.

You're also incorrect about humanity not being able to feed itself, because right now Livestock and Livestock feed occupies roughly 45% of the Earth's total land.

Thornton, Phillip, Mario Herrero, and Polly Ericksen. “Livestock and Climate Change.” Livestock Exchange, no. 3 (2011).
https://cgspace.cgiar.org/bitstream/handle/10568/10601/IssueBrief3.pdf

"The projections show that feeding a
world population of 9.1 billion people in
2050 would require raising overall food
production by some 70 percent between
2005/07 and 2050. Production in the
developing countries would need to almost
double. "
http://www.fao.org/fileadmin/templates/wsfs/docs/Issues_papers/HLEF2050_Global_Agriculture.pdf

Finally, we're actually growing enough food right now to feed 10 Billion people if we shifted all of that to actual crop variety instead of livestock feed. http://www.commondreams.org/views/2012/05/08/we-already-grow-enough-food-10-billion-people-and-still-cant-end-hunger

Please show your sources that say we can't feed everyone if we end animal husbandry.

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>>7708201
That's not me, and I previously spoke against that guy from just jumping in.>>7708168

>>7708209
We don't think the ones making an attempt to do something better are assholes. We think the ones being smug about it and going out of their way to berate us and try to convert us are assholes.

And yes, it is stupid. All the vegans in the world, collectively, are drops in the ocean. You are not making a difference as much as you may wish you are. You're up against one of the biggest, and one of the oldest, industries on the planet. You can feel free to abstain from eating meat if it makes you feel better about the whole situation, but to think you're making a difference at all is idiocy.

I'm not going to deprive myself of something I enjoy based on misguided ideals. If you want to, cool. You do you.

Once you realize that veganism is a solution in search of a problem, it becomes clear that the reason so many followers are fucking nonstop spreading the word about it is because they are trying to convince themselves as well as you that what they are doing is more important than anything else.

Fuck, long sentence, sorry.

Vegans are just the same as Mormons going door to door. No real issue to talk about, just want to talk.

To sustain the farming practices necessary for the earth's population to be vegetarian, the majority of all land would have to be used for farming crops. This would result in having to kill/let die all animals all over the world as well as remove their habitat and cause them to go extinct.

People who are vegans/vegetarians on a moral base are delusional idiots.

>>7708094
I've been raw vegan (fruitarian) for 2 years. I did it for health reasons. I never really tried to proselytize veganism and tried to hide my diet to avoid getting called weird.

In the end I gave it up. I saw no benefits of it at all. First I stopped eating raw, then switched to vegetarian, and finally went back to eating meat.

I felt infinitely better after going back to eating meat. I always craved meat while I was vegan and never quite felt full. Now I finally could eat much less and still feel satiated. I quickly built some muscle by exercise. Also, I started spending a lot less on food, and least but not least, people stopped giving me weird looks.

I realized that if my organism wanted meat so much, perhaps it's for the best. I look at results, and I have much more energy and feel much better now.

And if you think you're better than others for not eating meat, you're a conceited bigoted asshole and should kill yourself.

>>7708236
I bet he thinks hunting is immoral too.

When hunters don't control local deer population more people hit them with cars and more people die.

>>7708094
>I honestly remain vegan out of wanting to be on the side where their only bad quality is caring about life and forcing it too hard on others, over the side that actively supports killing shit for their own pleasure.

So basically what you're saying is, the only reason you're vegan is so that you can wallow in your own smug sense of superiority.

Way to save those animals, bucko. I'm sure they appreciate it.

>>7708209
Well I dont deny that theoretically the world could be fed without meat, such an idea is about as likely as world peace. Major economic shifts would have to take place, major cultural and culinary shifts, and less developed countries would find themselves even further behind. Ours is a very first world argument.

>>7708232
Yeah. It's crazy how far reaching the industry actually is, and I'm not sure if we'll ever have the type of global shift most vegans dream about. It's asking people to selflessly stop something they like for the benefit of animals, although I don't know, the past couple of decades have shown a huge increase in awareness in giving a shit about the environment. I remain hopeful, though it may be a fool's hope.

>>7708235
Different issues hold different weight with different people. Some see animal husbandry as a fucked up practice and just want to try and have other people see it the same way. I'm not sure you could actually say there's no issue, because something being an issue, as stated before, is all based on perspective.

As an example, not everyone sees starving kids in Africa as an issue since it doesn't directly affect them. (Before you jump at me for making such a comparison, explain to me why it's not one that works in this case.)

>>7708242
>>7708236
Hunting is fine. Humans are naturally omnivores, so I don't see anything inherently wrong with actually eating meat. The argument is that unless you're in a situation where you need it to survive, there's no good reason outside of just wanting to eat it because you like it.

>>7708236
>>7708236
Absolutely false, it's the reverse.
Land required to feed 1 person for 1 year:
Vegan: 1/6th acre

Vegetarian: 3x as much as a vegan

Meat Eater: 18x as much as a vegan [xvii]

Robbins, John. Diet for a New America, StillPoint Publishing, 1987, p. 352

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/33/11996.abstract

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/assets/information/direct_seeded_vegetable_crops_calculation_yield_charts.pdf

>>7708245
Here's my other question for vegans: let's say, hypothetically, we abolish eating meat overnight. What do you want us to do with all the livestock animals currently alive?

Do we just slaughter them all and let them rot? Keep them until they die of old age (and put an enormous financial burden on farmers by making them care for animals they make no profit from)? Turn them loose?

How well do you think domesticated cows or chickens would fare in the wild? Cows are stupid, helpless, meat rectangles on legs that stick out like a sore thumb. They can't even get up on their own if you tip them over. What do you think wolves would do to them?

Do you even know how predators kill larger prey? You think they just kill them quickly? No, they disable them then rip them apart and devour them while they're still living. Doesn't a quick, painless bolt to the head seem much more humane than that?

Problem with op is saying we have to admit. That is some smug shit because your pretty much saying your in the right which means nothing in this world i mean look at trump.

>>7708094
Do the ethical thing and become a cannibal

>>7708263
Save the animals, eat a vegan!

>>7708253
OP here. Glad you asked that. Yeah, they would basically just die. It would be gruesome, where the most efficient way would be to maybe try saving some in various farm sanctuaries that currently operate around the world, but the others would be killed.

Farm animals weren't meant to survive in the wild, we bred them for animal agriculture.

Still, if everyone went vegan overnight, having that period of time with a mass killing would be nothing compared to the daily slaughters that happen on a regular basis.

>>7708257
I didn't say you have to admit, I said my issue is with people that don't present actual arguments or try to keep thinking of reasons why it's not a problem when it is.

Actually, fuck it, I present a counter. So what if I'm a smug asshole? I'm completely open to debating and I do change the way I think about topics provided someone can convince me that I have it wrong. If you don't feel like talking to me about it that's fine, but who are you or anyone else to tell people that they're wrong and assholes without looking into the reason behind what they're saying?

>>7708263
No way man, raising himan beings is a massive waste of resources. It requires well over 60 times the resources of being vegan

>>7708257
This. You assume your way is the only correct way. This is the height of arrogance.

>>7708250
>Humans are naturally omnivores

>>7708272
Well, presumably you want more people to become vegans. Being a smug asshole is generally not a good way to make people sympathetic to your cause.

>>7708094
As a vegan, I don't take the bait, get this shit thread out of here.

>>7708272
I think the problem is the onus is on vegans to prove that their theoretical math and studies can be turned into a reasonable method of feeding large groups of people.

I like to compare a lot of the studies that you and your ilk like to post to communism: it makes a lot of sense on paper but in practice it is massively inferior to the current system.

>>7708278
You assess the worth of the action based on the person talking about it then? Someone can be arrogant and smug and still be correct. There are plenty of times where I had to admit that some guy I didn't like at work that got on everyone's nerves was still right at the end of the day. He didn't win any points socially, but fuck it, he was right.

I probably messed up since being smug or arrogant isn't a good way to have others give your idea a chance, but a person's attitude about something shouldn't be a factor, since attitude is based on their personal feelings.

I felt the same towards vegans until I actually realized "oh shit no wonder they look like assholes, this practice is terrible and nobody else cares how do I tell other people about it delicately while also correctly communicating without pushing too hard on it?"

>>7708236
Do you have any idea how much land is being used for not only animals like cattle but land to feed them grains and plants in general?

Do you know how much CO2 emissions there are from animals in general due to the fact we mass produce them?

>>7708250
"For the benefit of animals"

Fucking topkek. You have no idea how much the suffering of animals contributes to your ability to live.

I work in frontier immunology. In my laboratory alone we have over 1,200 cages of mice for research and testing purposes. They do not have a good time.

Construction destroys animal habitats. Farmers kill herbivores to protect their crops.

You can't win this. Biology is full circle. Ultimately, none of it really matters. You're going to be something's food someday, kiddo.

>>7708306
You're still killing less animals in the end, it's about minimalism

>>7708292
Not saying it won't be difficult, but this wouldn't be an overnight thing.

A slow shift would be required, a very slow shift. The first issue though is the current industry of course wanting to do anything possible to not have that happen. It's the same as any big business preventing progress like the oil companies and electric cars.

>>7708272
You are definitely a smug asshole.

We don't want to hear this shit. This is a food and cooking board. You're talking about eliminating VERY MANY valuable ingredients that can be used in the pursuit of culinary satisfaction.

That's one reason.

Here's more:
Speciesism.
It tastes excellent.
It's part of my culture
I don't believe in your environmental alarmism

But here's the biggest reason why:
I mostly eat meat because of people like you. I purposefully go out of my way to consume more meat than I otherwise would and propagate the industry because I dislike the fact that you feel the need to shove this shit into our faces at every turn.

I'm going to go enjoy some bratwurst now. Take care.

>>7708306
Broken record again, with the "you're still doing bad shit so why not make everything you do bad shit!"

it holds no water. If nobody gave a shit about anything, we'd be in a much worse place. If nobody voted, our government wouldn't work (much can be debated about this but you get the idea).

It's not an argument that works because the entire goal of the vegan lifestyle is to minimize impact. It's just me, but I feel like it's childish to laugh at someone for making an effort in their own life to see how small they are compared to everyone, but still choose to practice what they preach.

Yeah, we all die one day, but the way we live life up till that point is what gives it any meaning.

>>7708294
Yeah, it probably shouldn't matter, but that's not how human nature works. If you don't like someone, you are unlikely to listen to what they say. That's the problem with vegans, they deal with ideals, not reality.

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>>7708325
I find it funny when people get upset and counter back with "I'll eat the meat you don't eat just because of that!!"

I'm effectively still assisting the cause whenever someone gets rustled that fucking much because they decide (yet possibly not go through with) to shove more meat down their throat in anger, possibly leading to health issues later on.


Maybe ask yourself why they shove this shit into your face instead of having knee-jerk reactions. And maybe ask yourself why you get so angry at someone suggesting the idea that maybe something you're not used to thinking about as wrong, quite possibly is an issue.

>>7708313
How are we killing less animals in the end?

To maintain the strains of mice that I'm in charge of, I have to regularly execute around 30 mice every 3 months like clockwork. That's for a single strain of mice in my specialization. These mice are only used to maintain the mice for future research use.

I've been doing this for a long time, man. Ultimately, if your complaint is about exploitation of animals then I think you need to look more broadly. Everything uses everything else. I'm using the government for my scholarship. It's using the people. The whole world is a big series of organisms using leverage on one another.

My eating meat both benefits and hurts whatever organism I eat. It's the same with you and plants. When you start splitting hairs about what non-human animals get to have the privilege of personhood then you create a slippery slope that you can't possibly shore up. It can never end.

>>7708341
Text can't convey emotion, anon. Calm down.

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>reading a vegan thread while eating delicious beef jerky

>>7708341
It's probably nothing compared to the health problems caused from eating the chemical sawdust that is fake meat/eggs.

You guys always talk about "minimising" and "minimalism", but all you've really done is pick a different compromise on the line from "actual minimal" to "animal mass murderer".

You're standing at a window watching a robbery, patting yourself on the back for not taking part.

>>7708348
What does your research have anything to do with land use? That is not the discussion.

"For the benefit of the animals" pertained to land usage and not slaughtering them

Not mass breeding and slaughtering animals as well as dedicating lands of grains and plants for them to eat is far more environmentally efficient (good for all) and involves less deaths of animals than otherwise

Again, minimalism, this is something you are ignoring and being an edgelord about that is explained here >>7708327

>>7708348
It is splitting hairs, although most vegans draw the line at anything we currently consider sentient life.

I honestly don't believe that me being vegan equates to overall less animals being killed, although meat consumption in the US is at an all time low.

http://latestvegannews.com/400-million-fewer-animals-were-killed-for-food-last-year-because-people-are-eating-less-meat/

So yeah, the vegan lifestyle is having a large affect on the industry.

I agree that it's also just life, and life is shit no matter what type of creature you are, and it's just a bid to get higher up to not have to suffer. At the same time, if you're in a position where you can either choose to support the industry, or not, just in my mind it makes the most sense to not.

Exploitation is everywhere, but that doesn't mean people have to resign themselves to it in all parts of their lives.

>>7708365
It's literally impossible to live without harming something.

You're just being an obtuse retard because in this case it helps you make you feel better about yourself for being an objectively destructive sociopathic asshole

>>7708372
Alright let's not start getting into name calling. This thread has been fairly civil back and forth so far.

>>7708372
I'm just taking issue with your misuse of words. You could become a Jain, brushing the path in front of you with a shed ostrich feather. You could live off moss and devote your life to promoting harm reduction. Stop calling "not eating meat" "minimal".

You'll also note my analogy refers to meat eaters as robbers? I hardly absolved it of moral harm.

>>7708379
>you could live off of moss

No you can't. You're reverting to extremes to compensate for the fact you're not arguing something entirely practical that is still actually very minimal

It is entirely minimal, you're not actually presenting any reasonable arguments as to why it isn't. You seem to be trying to convince yourself at this point.

>>7708379
OP again, you're right. Honestly if we 100% gave a shit, we would drop everything and become a Jainist, go out and live away from modern society to try and have the least impact possible.

The truth is is that most people have a limit as to what they can give up for the sake of a cause. Being vegan in a society where tons of people still find it ridiculous isn't the easiest thing, but it's still within the realm of simple possibility without affecting your life too much.

So yes, I could be doing much more, but everyone has limits.

I think the reason that vegans are still adamant about other people trying the lifestyle as well, is that it's a restriction that's possible without asking something as extreme as becoming a Jainist.

Many people just dismiss it, although as I mentioned in the opening post, lots of people dismiss plenty of things that don't directly affect them, because life is hard. I don't not respect people that ignore it for that reason, since I was in that position not too long ago myself.

>>7708392
It's not completely minimal, and he does have a point. Most of the technology we have was obtained through the exploitation of something else. It's difficult to live without having any impact whatsoever.

His argument is fairly reasonable. Other vegans also need to know when to admit when their points have been shot down too, and find the middle ground.

The wolf doesn't give a fuck what the lamb thinks. You've given up your position of apex predator. Leave this place.

>>7708094
I eat vegetarian about 95% of the time. I cook nearly every meal I eat, and I make vegetarian food. I won't refuse meat if a family member cooks it, and I don't expect them to become vegetarians or cater to me. Not sure I could do vegan. I still use cheese, dairy, and eggs fairly often, though not the majority of meals.

>>7708406
Well obviously not eating meat isn't the only thing. But it's still quite a step.

>most of the technology we have obtained through the exploitation of something else

Which is why you still advocate for more sensible means of extraction. The technology itself isn't the inherent issue. It's something else at play

>its difficult to live without having any impact

Like I said

>his argument is fairly reasonable

No, it's actually quite dismissive based on the grounds completely different things that are going on, as well as going to fictional extremes.

Just because not eating meat isn't the only solution, does not mean it is not an effective remedy to minimizing the impact you have.

>>7708408
You bring up another argument that I've often thought about in my head as well.

It's true that in the wild, predators don't care about their prey and only see them as a food source. But that's either because they evolved to be true carnivores, or it's a survival situation.

We've evolved enough to honestly not need to kill animals to survive. If you then argue speciesism, then shouldn't we also be above killing things for sport?

>>7708408
No one here is a wolf or lamb

Though you might be the latter since you've bought into a ridiculous carnist idea to justify an entirely different idea.

>>7708395
I pretty much totally agree with you. I feel like I should be vegan or at least eat less meat, but it's a huge source of enjoyment for me, so I try and indulge it responsibly.

>>7708392
I only use extremes as examples to try and map out the argument space, though I do sort of feel like Jains have a lot going for them. I'm only arguing that it's not a simple case of moral points out of ten for your diet, vegans get 10. Human food use and the moral dimensions of it are more complicated than a simple better or worse.

>>7708094
I want to know how you hunt, butcher and cook a noisy self-righteous vegan

>>7708366
You're fucking full-retard if you believe that people aren't already engaging in your so-called "minimalism." That's what people do. You get the best deal for a specific amount of resources you're willing to put forth for what you want.

That's the founding principle of all biological systems, and most importantly, capitalism.

What you're advocating is an impossibility. As long as capitalism is in sway, your ideal can never be realized.

You're pissing in the wind and it's blowing back into your face. But feel free to jerk yourself off about your fantasies. It demonstrates how little you really do know.

>>7708368
It certainly is having a big effect. But that doesn't really concern me so much. If there really is a food item that can replicate the taste and texture of meat then it's a moot point to me. The caveat is that I don't think that it will be possible for quite some time.

I dig where you're coming from with the idea of inducing and experiencing suffering, but that is literally how life goes around.

If you have a smartphone then someone is probably getting cancer right now to give it to you. We are literally experiencing some form of exploitation at every second of the day. At this moment we are being exploited for ad revenue.

I just think that it's silly to say that animal exploitation is not ok while other exploitation of human beings and plants are ok. In any case, nice conversation with you m80.

Reasons I'm not vegan are because

I don't think it would make a difference, people are still going to eat meat no matter what

I'd rather support more humane animal husbandry practices by buying things like cage free, grass fed bs than vegan alternatives which do little to nothing for the cause other than make money for often the same companies practicing inhumane farming

i don't want to miss out on the culture and recipes and social events/people that come with being an omnivore (who wants to be that friend that orders salad at a steakhouse and never get invited again. i don't want to make a new circle of friends or have people rotate their plans entirely on me because of my choices)

it's less diet restrictive

i can eat vegan food if i want to anyways but not the other way around

it tastes good

>>7708446
>if you believe that people aren't already engaging in your so called minamilism

Why is this even relevant? Who said otherwise?

>what you're advocating is an impossibility

It's highly unlikely with dumbasses like you, that's not the point though

>it demonstrates how little you know

Wow, what an argument. You haven't actually refuted a single thing and are just talking in pure hypotheticals which are completely irrelevant

You must've thought you actually said something profound

You didn't. You just sound like more of a fucking idiot than you already are.

>>7708448
It's not going to make a difference if you do nothing about it and don't take any steps to someone else not doing it.

Cage free, grass fed are still slaughtered in the end and there's nothing to suggest that they're treated all that well besides that

>i dont want to miss out on culture and recipes

Selfish, you can still experience culture without actually having to eat meat. Those people aren't worthwhile if they're as superficial to not want you because you don't eat meat. That's absurd. If it really bothers you that much then eat meat when you dine out, or better yet you can actually introduce them to vegan friendly restaurants or simply cook for them and invite them over to your place

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>>7708452
Cry more you little faggot.

I feel sorry for your friends and family.

>>7708462
You're calling him selfish. That's rich.

>>7708473
Good argument again

Time for you to kill yourself and actually make your family happy

>b-b-b-ut you arent' 100% by nature, so fuck the world!!!!

Kek, you must be obese

>>7708479
That's funny, I didn't realize my decision of eating meat was bound by whether or not I thought people would like it.

>>7708419
I'm not above killing for sport, I have a license to hunt pests on government land. Life is fleeting for all living things, what you think of as a precious rabbits life is but the blink of an eye for the ancient and mighty oak. The death of an animal is not just inconsequential but also inevitable and whether it dies to fill my pot, or from calicivirus or myxomatosis or under the wheels of a car does not matter in the big picture.

You probably wouldn't even flinch if I or some 3rd world kid died of starvation so you should stop being such an impressionable soft cunt and wake up.

>>7708462
Even if a whole town or state or country goes vegan, it won't shut down the meat industry. You literally doesn't matter if you eat meat or not. You have less power than you think. By going vegan, all you are supporting are vegan alternatives. By buying grass fed and cage free, you support those industries and more humane alternatives and maybe down the line support even more humane options as those industries grow bigger and people notice "hey this brand promoting cage free isnt humane enough! lets buy this other brand that supports small farmers!"

Your suggestions are having people entirely rotate their plans to be friends with you which they said they didn't want and you can't eat meat when you're on a restrictive vegan diet because it will make you sick. Also when people exclude vegans, its not them not wanting them around because they're vegan, it's because they think they wouldn't enjoy going to a restaurant with no vegan options around and eventually after enough outtings, people drift off. No one was excluding vegans maliciously on purpose but it was more like "nah let's not invite them because they probably won't enjoy it."

Hey OP, I haven't even read this thread and I'm sure you've been given a lot of shit for it, but it's all the same typical stuff, I'm sure.

I've been vegan for a year, and I started for ethical reasons but I feel fantastic, and honestly, meat and cheese cravings completely stop after maybe a month or so, or at least they did for me. I take no supplements and I eat like a fucking king (being able to cook pretty well helps; I don't think I could do this if I couldn't cook vegan food for myself) and I've had no problems.

I feel like it's much easier in this day and age to be vegan than it was even maybe five years ago. There's so many dairy and meat substitute products on the market, and I still get to eat shit like bacon cheeseburgers, mac and cheese, ice cream, yogurt, etc etc.

vegan protip: There's a brand of meat substitutes called Gardein, they make the best burger patties.

>>7708622
>it wont' shut down the meat industry

I'm well aware.

You're obviously not going to change the world in 1 year. A little bit goes a long way. Your solution of buying more "humane" does nothing to remedy the issue. It just justifies people's current habits with a different way of approaching it. Which is not what should be promoted by veganism

>your suggestions are having people entirely rotate their plans to be friends

No, it's not. And again if someone is so unbelievably stubborn as to not even entertain the idea of having a vegan friend that they have to deal with when choosing dining options or going to a vegan restaurant, then they probably aren't worthwhile people to begin with. Regardless of that, I even suggested just plainly eating accordingly if you dine out somewhere if this is such an issue, if you're not that committed to veganism to begin with, I doubt you'd have any issue with eating steaks only if you got out somewhere. Again, these are very superficial reasons that can be very easily accommodated for.

>because it will you make you sick
?

>>7708622
>>7708655 here

>You literally doesn't matter if you eat meat or not.

You are completely correct. One person or even a hundred people makes no difference. For me, doing this is just my way to opt out of a system that just I don't believe in and can't support.

Maybe that's retarded, and I full well know that it's just to make ME feel better, but here we are.

>>7708094
Hey I wish I could go vegan, there's a lot of compelling arguments for it and all, but too be honest I just like meat, and haven't invested the energy to trying to convert.

>>7708663
You're making a difference but it's not that big in itself. Setting a good example and telling others is far more power. Even not being vegan and simply eating more plant based foods is a step in the right direction.

My mom being vegetarian influenced us and a lot of her friends to just generally eat a lot more plant based foods

It's a chain of influence

>>7708658
>>because it will you make you sick
>?

I haven't (regularly, intentionally) eaten any dairy for a year, and when I accidentally do (cross contamination, restaurants not being forthright about ingredients) I'm on the toilet for hours.

Your body gets super unused to processing dairy rather quickly after you stop eating it, which is interesting. I dunno if it's the same for meat, but I wouldn't be surprised.

>>7708673
Try a few substitute products and see if there's any you like, nothing to lose. OP pic is okay, there's also Gardein and Beyond Meat and Field Roast and Yves and all sorts of stuff, you can find them at pretty much any grocery store. They aren't really any more expensive (and sometimes cheaper) than the 'premium' (grass fed, organic) meat you can buy.

>>7708675
I know there's at least one guy at work I was talking to (he asked, I'm not the type to go around all DID YOU KNOW I'M VEGAN???) who seemed interested in trying it, so there's that.

>>7708688
there are stories of vegans throwing up after eating meat again but not from any moral/ethical reason but from their body not being able to handle it. just a few weeks would change your gut flora enough, but long time vegetarians seem to have less problems transitioning back into eating meat or switching back and forth. transitioning back into eating meat have a lot of guides online saying to start off slow with bone broths.

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>>7708094
those beast burgers are not burgers

theyre the fucking devil

D
E
V
I
L

It's like a dog shit patty after they ate toilet paper, grass and some poor mouse. Fuck outta here

>>7708688
there are a lot more vegan options these days which make it easier. a few years ago, all you had was boca burger and all restaurants offered were undressed salads.

Claiming the moral high ground for being vegan while attempting to emulate non-vegan foods because you still like them is roughly equivalent to publicly opposing slavery and then paying a black person to wait on you hand and foot and pretend they don't have a choice because it gratifies you sexually.

Just fuck off for once, you culinary Mormon.

>>7708756
wow, what's it like to be so retarded?

>>7708756
It actually isn't in any way at all. But continue on with your delusions

I suggest supplementing it with lithium however.

The more I argued with them the more I learned their dialectic. At first they calculated on the stupidity of their adversary. Then, when they could find no other way out, they played stupid themselves. ...Whenever you attacked one of the apostles, your hand closed around slimy matter which immediately separated and slipped through the fingers and the next moment reconstituted itself. If you struck such an annihilating blow that, observed by the audience, he had no choice but to agree with you, and thus you thought you had taken one step forward, the next day your amazement would be great. The vegan knew nothing at all about yesterday and repeated his same old twaddle as though nothing had happened; if you angrily challenged him on this, he could not remember a thing other than he had demonstrated the correctness of his assertions on the previous day.

Many times I stood there astonished.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: their verbal agility or their art in lying.

Gradually, I began to hate them.

>>7708462

Cage free and grass fed are marketing ploys and that's about it. You're right to assume that any farmed meat you're buying at a supermarket chain is not treated well.

Honestly, once you get out of the factory farm environment though, treating an animal poorly isn't conducive to good farming. Smaller, traditional, sustainable farming depends on the non-food benefits of the animals living there as much as if not more than on the food they might yield. Yes, they are slaughtered in the end and I realize that that gets right to one of the big ethical problems, but if we're talking about change at any level being a good thing, then treating the animals well while they're alive is a good change.

If you want people to eat less meat (for their ethical reasons or not) a more practical approach might be to work on getting the government to stop subsidizing feed and fuel crops (I know, it won't happen...) and to start funding crops that can actually support people and I don't mean corn and soy. Without those feed crops, factory farming becomes completely unsustainable.

Not directly related to what I said, but still... There's an interesting article about how, if New York switched to a vegetarian diet, the land could support more people than the current meat heavy diet, but if they shifted to a mostly vegetarian diet with some dairy and meat they could support even more because grazing and foraging animals don't require the type of quality soil that's needed to actually support major crop growth. That would require, again, a move out of the factory farm environment. Too many animals would overwhelm any pasture or forageable land.

Article I mentioned: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071008130203.htm

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>>7708729
>that DNR

>>7708171
m8
first rule of vegan club is tell everyone about vegan club

we don't want to be some club that looks down on other people. we want everyone to join us, and then there wouldn't even be anyone to look down on

>>7708094
Although there are more than one reason to eat meat eating it he size it tastes good is enough of a reason to justify doing it and nobody was ever able to prove that wrong

>>7708094
>Hey guys I'm a vegan because I can't justify torture of a living thing for pleasure
Posted form a computer made by slave children

>>7709194
You can make computers without it

Can't make meat without killing the animal

>>7709203
>You can make computers without it
Current global economic trends say otherwise.

>>7708529
Also, what about cultural backgrounds.
Native Eskimo people have a diet that consists
of mostly meat that they hunt and kill to survive
Go tell them that they have been doing wrong and try to convert them to veganism.

>>7709222
That's their decision.

>>7708094
Have you tried Gardein products OP? I was addicted to them for a while, trying to kick the habit lol

>>7709167
vegan alternatives taste just as good so there isn't much justification to kill an animal when you can have the same/similar flavor without killing

>>7709229
I think indigenous/native people can continue doing what they do, since it's such low impact on the climate and it's their heritage. The people I want to convert are those who are buying meat and killing unnecessarily when they have access to alternatives. There's a difference between eating meat to survive and living off the land vs hurr durr cheeseburgers and bacon milk cheese animal cruelty is ok bc tastes good bullshit.

>>7709238
You claim that and maybe it tastes the same to you, however I have above average taste buds, hell 90% of the time people can tell they are eating something worse than real meat multiply that by 5 and you have me
So meat is way cheaper than any vegan alternative that I ever saw so there is that

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>>7709238

>>7709260
If you're concerned about the price, you can always make your own shit. Perfectly healthy, tastes good--may not taste like meat but it's still delicious in it's own right. Also beans, rice, lentils, oats, potatoes, bananas, etc are so much cheaper than meat.
My taste buds have changed since I became a vegan, and if you give up meat yours will too in about a month. I've known people who were meat fanatics, who couldn't stand the scent of it after converting.

I do not care to be honest.


God put animals under man's domininion for a reason.

>>7709269
>Converting
Here is the problem, being vegan is cheap as long as you feed on rice, beans and whatever is cheap at the fruit store but if you want the best vegan food you have to pay top dollar or slave away in the kitchen and please nottice that my average meal tKes less than ten minutes to make so I consider anything above slaving
And I do like vegan food, falafel is delicious as long as it's fresh and not the reheated dry garbage that most places serve and blue is delicious as long az it's made right.
However er any of those things are better served with meat
Could I get used to eating only vegan? Of course, I could get used to eating meti or feeding on wouldn't too however I stated good delicious food is very important to me and I don't want to give it up

>>7709284
Hummus keto and soylent respectively

>>7708957
>and then there wouldn't even be anyone to look down on

Until you buy the wrong brand of organically grown holistic faux soy paste substitute, and then all the ultra vegans will start shitting on you for not eating the kind of soy paste that was raised under a specific wattage of bulb because those bulbs are more humane for the plant.

I eat meat because I work in a kitchen and would feel like a hypocrite if I didn't. I like what I do, but if I ever quit, I would probably go vegetarian or vegan. I've tried going vegetarian before, but the longest I ever lasted was 3 months.

>>7708097
The whole "vegans always tell you they're vegan" meme is retarded. People usually eat at least 3 times a day, so if you're with someone for more than a few hours, the topic of food is likely to come up. Do you think they should just pretend they eat meat so you're not offended that someone else lives differently than you?

>>7708094
Are vegans healthy to eat?

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Why can't someone who removes meat as a staple to their diet but eats it occasionally be considered vegan or vegetarian?

Why does it have to be all or nothing?

What I don't understand is how vegans and vegetarians say they care about life except when it comes to plants. Plants are alive, you are eating something that is alive or once alive. You might argue that it doesn't matter because they don't feel pain or w/e, so if we somehow engineered a chicken to no longer feel pain, would that be okay to eat?

>>7709381

They can, but vegans and vegetarians like to protect their special snowflake titles.

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>going out with a vegan friend
>hey man, let's go eat at this new indian restaurant, they have the most delicious vegan dishes that taste just like meat!
>then why don't you just eat meat if you like it so much?
>eeeeugh no!
>mfw

>>7709381
Because that's not what those words mean. What a dumb question.

>>7708094
>but honestly the main one that keeps me going is how fucking retarded so many people are when they get into arguments with vegans and have none.

so you're autistic. OK, we get it. meat is fucking delicious tho bro. but you gotta do what you gotta do right

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>>7709431
I don't normally blanket vegans and vegetarians but this seems to be true.

My buddy actually does the meat every now-and-then thing and calls himself vegetarian, but other vegetarians will argue all day that he isn't.

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>>7709457
It's not a dumb question, and here's why. If I don't smoke habitually but have a fine cigar once every few months, does that make me a smoker? Absolutely not, unless you're autistic about how you define people.

So why can't a vegan go to a dinner party and eat meat for one evening and still be a vegan?

>>7709443
u a big dummy

>>7709475
Because that's not what those words mean. Smoker is a little ambiguous, sure, but vegetarian is not. They are different words with different meanings. You can't be "just a little bit gay", you can't be "mostly dead". You're in, or you're out, or you find another word.

Like flexitarian, apparently.

>>7709515
So if you're a vegetarian, and I feed you something that, unbeknownst to you, has meat in it, you are no longer a vegetarian?

>>7709527
so you're a meat eater, and I feed you something that, unbeknownst to you, has no meat in it, you are no longer a carnist?

>>7709254
>cruelty
Who are you to tell us what animals like and what they dislike? Did you ask them?

>>7708094
I was a vegetarian for awhile back in the mid 00's. One thing I made myself aware of at all times was that vegetables are NOT meat. Any attempt to try and make them into 'meat look-alikes' usually involves lots of fillers. The nutrition labels are horror shows on those things.

You could easily take strips of effin' grilled zucchini thar and layered them up in a bun like that with the toppings. It would not taste like beef but IT'S NOT GOD DAMNED BEEF. Enjoy it for what it is.

>>7709555
>makes exact same point I was making
So you're saying we're in agreement?

>>7709527
Most people aren't usually born vegetarian. Most places define it as "one who does not eat meat." So, not necessarily one who has never eaten meat. Just making a conscious effort to keep meat out of your diet.

Personally, I think it's more to do with intent than anything else. If you're put in a position where you have to kill someone to save yourself, would anyone call you a murderer?

Things happen. If someone really wanted to go out of their way to trick a vegetarian, that's pretty sad, but that's life. Most people would just move on, I imagine.

But just going to a dinner party like you said, there's no real pressure on a vegetarian and no reason to eat meat. So why would they?

>>7708094
>Beyond that, you get into a discussion of whether being a superior species justifies our right to do whatever we want with lower species, but that's a different type of debate. I was able to admit to myself that the only reasons for eating vegetables, is either out of want, out of needing to for survival, or out of not wanting to make such a huge change in your life.

>>7708168
>OP here, I don't even want to argue whether or not it's immoral. Plenty of people don't give a shit about that and roll their eyes to it. The main thing I want to get at is the odd justification that lots of people do, instead of admitting flat out that continuing to eat cupcakes is out of comfort and nothing else.

>>7709605
>Things happen. If someone really wanted to go out of their way to trick a vegetarian, that's pretty sad, but that's life. Most people would just move on, I imagine.
I wouldn't actually do that, I was just using that as an example.

>But just going to a dinner party like you said, there's no real pressure on a vegetarian and no reason to eat meat. So why would they?
Some may want to. My buddy calls himself a vegetarian but if he's at someone's place and they're making burgers, he'll eat a burger just because he thinks it's nice to have one once in awhile. What's so wrong with someone simply /reducing/ their meat consumption to near-nothing that you have to make them feel like they're not part of the club? Is that not good enough?

>>7709576
nah just trollin u brah

>>7709633
If you choose to eat meat, you aren't a vegetarian. That's just how it works. I'm sorry if it hurts someone's feelings, and it's all well and good if you want to eat less meat, I just think it's disingenuous to call yourself something you aren't.

>it's nice to have one once in awhile

Not for the cow, I'd wager.

>>7709658
Not everyone is vegetarian for moral reasons.

>>7709658
You aren't very bright, are you?

>>7709679
We aren't even talking about the reasons people follow vegetarian diets.

>>7709693
Right, but you /did/ add that qualifier at the end of your post, "Not for the cow, I'd wager."

I thought you were implying that the guy I was talking about was turning his back on his morals or something, which isn't the case.

But what you're saying is that someone who is veg for moral reasons and someone else who is for health and environmental reasons both have to subscribe to the same tenets in order to be vegetarian?

>>7709732
Well yes, but it's fairly straightforward. The tenets of vegetarianism are just: don't eat meat. I'm just telling you the definition, it's not really up to me.

I think using the same word for "someone who doesn't eat meat" and "someone who eats meat rarely" would just be confusing.

If you like to eat a little bit of meat, describe yourself as "mostly vegetarian" if asked. Why wouldn't you want to be as clear and specific as possible?

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I see no reason to be a vegan.

>>7709806
>If you like to eat a little bit of meat, describe yourself as "mostly vegetarian" if asked. Why wouldn't you want to be as clear and specific as possible?
That's fair, I suppose. Round goes to you, anon.

One caveat, saying that will still probably piss vegetarians off, but he's used to it.

I value other animals less than myself for the same reasons you value plants as less than animals. Something's gotta die for me to eat, I don't really see a difference between killing animals to eat and killing plants to eat.

Now, the farming industry we have will probably kill us all, but we're already in the middle of the sixth mass extinction. We're probably fucked anyway.

>>7708094
other species, were they in our place and we in theirs, would eat us no questions asked
everything basically eats everything else anyway. it's not just a lion king song, it's the circle of life. if I'm dead, other animals would eat me. I'm just an animal, i'll eat other dead animals. humans are just better at acquiring any food than other animals. we've mastered gardening and farming, from plants to farm animals, so we won. we did it all. we can have all we want, whenever we want, how we want it
and i'm not going to pretend "it tastes good" isn't a valid reason for eating something. I've eaten veal, it was okay, not my favorite, so I'll be getting my favorite again instead of tortured baby cow. it's not for any altruistic reason, it's purely for the benefit of my taste buds.

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would be a vegan I guess but they all seem to be so long winded

okay I get it, you don't eat animal flesh
order something else
you're boring the shit out of me

>>7709254
I'm American therefore my heritage is burgers and processed food.

>>7709233
And it's also reality. Animals are still going to be killed just like people are going to be worked to death in sweatshops. Being vegan doesn't stop anything.

>>7709238
They are close, but no cigar. Vegan stuff is more expensive than the real deal too.

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>>7708094
Vegetarian I can understand, but only complete idiots are vegans.

What is even more retarded however is eating plant or mushroom goop trying to emulate stuff like meat or cheese.
It always tastes like shit and never accurately emulates the taste of what it is trying to be.

You're better off embracing the natural flavours of the greens and make those flavours sing, instead of making something shit that satisfies no one.

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>>7708341
>meat
>leading to health issues

You do know humans are not herbivores and we have eatend meat and since shit the very beginning?
In fact one of the defining aspects of early humanoids was that we did stuff like take the bones of scoured carcasses (other animals killed and ate) to break them open to eat the marrow. This helped us survive.
Hunting was also important because it gave us food and warm clothes.
Domestication also helped humanity survive.
If humanity stuck to your "healthy" ideas then we would've died out ages ago.
Also getting everything your body needs from plants only requires research and a regular intake of specific foods (or even vitamin+mineral supplements) because yet again our bodies were not designed to only eat greens.

Learn moderation you dumb fuck.

>>7708462
>Cage free, grass fed are still slaughtered in the end and there's nothing to suggest that they're treated all that well besides that

What's wrong with slaughtering animals for food?
Are you gonna try and teach carnivores like lions and crocs to survive off chickpeas and turnips?

It's about treating the animals with respect when they live and when they're used for food. To not waste anything when you eat them.
For example I always buy whole chicken and use the breasts, legs and wings for food and the bones and scraps for stock.
You only use what you need.

>>7710562
Just because we needed every bit of food in the past doesn't mean that we should continue it now. Do we need hunting for food and clothing now? We (most people in non-shit places) have outgrown the necessity of killing animals for food and other shit they have.

The last part of your post is a lot more complicated, as if you wanted to get everything your body requires even if you were eating meat along with plants, you would still need to research what you were eating, as I'm sure we can agree that most people aren't doing nutrition correctly despite having the means to do so.

>>7710576
>What's wrong with slaughtering animals for food?

Nothing IMHO. But the problem is that many people take things to illogical extremes. For example "factory farming is wrong, therefore we should stop eating any and all kinds of meat". While I agree with the fact that factory farming is indeed cruel (and produces meat that doesn't taste very good) there are other alternatives: truly free-ranged farming, hunting, etc.

>>To not waste anything when you eat them.
Agreed 100%. And that helps things in other ways too: high quality cage-free meat is more expensive than factory-farmed stuff. Wasting nothing helps the better meat becomes more affordable since there is no waste.

>>7710576
Comparing humans to lions and crocs is hilarious, as crocs and lions don't go to the store to buy food because it tastes yum yum. Considering people have gone vegetarian/vegan, and generally outlived people that ate a "traditional" diet (research is a bit lacking at the moment), I'd say that people don't need meat to survive.

My belief is that slaughtering animals for food is immoral when it isn't necessary for your own survival or the survival of others. I firmly believe that animals have the capacity to suffer, so causing them to suffer without need is rather cruel. Not to mention the negative effects that growing animals for food has on the enviornment and all that shit, I firmly believe that meat is pretty much bad for every party involved.

>>7710609
>Do we need hunting for food and clothing now?

Need? Maybe not. But it certainly has benefits. Hunting is a great source of cruelty-free meat, and leather clothing has a far lower environmental impact than the production of synthetic fibers from petroleum.

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>>7710609
>Just because we needed every bit of food in the past doesn't mean that we should continue it now.

You don't understand. Humans were not made to survive on just greens alone. We're supposed to eat a little bit of everything.
There's nothing unhealthy about eating a turkey, some tuna, etc. in moderation.

To eat properly is incredibly easy for a normal person. You only need some meat (protein), some kind of carbs (like potatoes) and some greens. A well balanced diet that will pretty much give everything your body needs without needing to do any kind of research.

You trying to push this "unhealthy" card simply doesn't hold up.

>>7710640
99% of the population are not eating according to guidelines, and the majority have deficient micronutrient intake.

>>7710636
I agree that hunting can be cruelty-free, and could have some benefits for the enviornment as well. However, that's only if you have the proper tools and perfect aim, as not all hunting is cruelty-free. While a shot to the head might be instant, and the animal won't know any pain before it dies, I can say the same about a shot to the leg or other forms of hunting, such as trapping.

I don't know enough about the effects of leather on the enviornment vs synthetic fibers/chemically treated plant based fibers to really comment on your last argument though.

>>7710633
>My belief is that slaughtering animals for food is immoral

Which it isn't. It is the way of life.
We kill animals for food, food which humans need to survive.
In for example africa they hunt animals to survive, do you consider what the tribes are doing to be immoral? Or is it only "immoral" in first world countries?
Are you gonna head down to africa and feed all the poor people and tribes there with your supposedly healthy and non-immoral vegan diet?

Do you know what is immoral? People killing eachother for no reason. People kill eachother daily for no good reason at all, not tied to their need to survive. Is that not a greater issue? Apparantely not.

>>7710647
>99% of the population are not eating according to guidelines, and the majority have deficient micronutrient intake.

And?
You think things would improve if we banned everything that wasn't vegan?

>>7710640
>I understand nothing
How can you explain the fact that vegans/vegetarians have a longer life expectancy then, if we NEED meat to survive? We need water to survive, we can't last more than a few days without it, if we needed meat to survive, why isn't it impacting health for people that don't eat meat?

If you say it is that easy, why are most people not following that diet? And I'd argue your definition of "some" meat.

>vegan trying to force his views onto others

This is the real reason why no one likes vegans.

>>7710668
>Or is it only "immoral" in first world countries?

That's a good point. The ability to eat a well-balanced vegan diet is a luxury that is created by first-world wealth. The ability to grow crops out-of-season with artificial lighting & chemical fertilizers is key. So is the ability to ship foods via long-distance refrigerated transport. That requires an army of smoke-belching ships, planes, and trucks. It's easy to fall into the trap of assuming you can always buy tomatoes in January from the supermarket...but few people bothered to think about how those tomatoes got there.

>>7710668
I'm going to give some assumptions that I think about you, given that you have access to an electronic device, have working internet, and have the spare time in your life to post about pointless shit on the internet.

YOU don't need meat to survive. You probably have access to a grocery store or supermarket that has more food in it than you will ever need in your life. I'm not pushing the vegan/vegetarian diet on people that hunt to survive, as if they don't bring home a deer every week, they will starve. Even if you are a hunter, I'm sure if you fail to get a deer, you would just drive by a supermarket to pick up something on your way home. You forgot to add in the second part of my sentence when you quoted me as saying that slaughtering animals for food is immoral when I said that it immoral when it isn't necessary for your own survival or the survival of others.

Where did I say that people killing each other for no reason is something I support or will turn a blind eye to? Are you only capable of caring about a single issue at a time?

>>7710671
>How can you explain the fact that vegans/vegetarians have a longer life expectancy then

What you fail to grasp is that you compare them to a big number of people that DON'T think about what they eat. These are people that drink coke, eat tons of bacon, never work out, etc.
You don't compare them to for example people that work out and think about their diet but DO eat meat, etc.

I also never said we needed meat to survive, but that meat in itself is not unhealthy which you on the other hand claim in your ignorance.

There are many types of food vegans eat that can be dangerous to the human body in excess. Also being a vegan and not eating a well balanced diet can in fact be lethal. It's not that being a vegan is more healthy at all, it's about thinking about what you stuff your mouth with.

So no, you're the idiot that understands nothing.

>>7710671
>How can you explain the fact that vegans/vegetarians have a longer life expectancy then, if we NEED meat to survive?

First off, I haven't seen any data that clearly suggests vegans live longer than other diet types. The two diets associated with the longest lifespans are Okinawa and the Mediterranean. Both diets include meat and fish.

What you see most of the time is a comparison between a vegan diet and an "average" western diet (e.g. lots of instant meals and fast food). And the vegan diets tend to be much healthier. But it's rare to see a comparison between a vegan diet and a well-balanced diet which includes some meat.

>>NEED meat to survive
We don't, of course. Thanks to modern technology it's possible to get any kind of veggie year-round. We can also pick and choose foods from all over the world and have them flown/shipped in. We can make supplements (pills) for those things lacking in vegan food, like B12.

But what seems silly to me is why we would want to do that? Some nutrients are most efficiently found in plant foods. Others are most efficiently found in meats. It seems silly to arbitrarily cut out an entire food group in exchange for a less ideal alternative.

>>why isn't it impacting health for people that don't eat meat?
It is impacting health. Many vegetarians and vegans are horribly malnourished.

>>7710688
>YOU don't need meat to survive.

Of course not, but I enjoy it and I think about what I eat so I'm healthy.
How is this relevant? It's not healthier to be a vegan.

What it boils down to is that you think it's cruel to kill and eat animals. You need to understand that this is YOUR opinion and you can't force that belief onto others.
Pulling this "It's unhealthy!" card is you just trying to trick people since you can't convince them via guilt.

>Are you only capable of caring about a single issue at a time?

You can't care about every single issue in the world. You need to think about what is most important and focus on those things.

>>7708168
not even vegan but that Mayo is god tier
>tfw they stopped carrying it here

FUCK

>>7710697
It isn't that researchers intentionally match health conscious vegans with obese omnivores. There are fatfuck vegans and there are fit omnivores, but even taking those into account, the average vegan is healthier than the average omnivore, that's just a fact.

>I also never said we needed meat to survive, but that meat in itself is not unhealthy which you on the other hand claim in your ignorance.

Can you explain what your quote here means then?

>Humans were not made to survive on just greens alone. We're supposed to eat a little bit of everything.

>>7710721
>the average vegan is healthier than the average omnivore, that's just a fact.

Yes indeed. But that doesn't mean that meat is automatically unhealthy. It means that the average omnivore eats a shitty diet in general. In other words, the answer could very well be that the ideal diet is LESS meat rather than no meat. Or it could mean less processed meat products, etc. There are many possibilities here, and without a more specific study it is irresponsible to draw the conclusion that meat is unhealthy as a general concept.

>>7710721
>the average vegan is healthier than the average omnivore, that's just a fact.

Which is completely irrelevant. Meat, diary products, etc. is not by defauly unhealthy.
It's about eating a well balanced diet.
Someone that is open to eath anything but is concious about what they're eating WILL be overall healther than a vegan since they don't have to replace a bunch of shit, add supplements, additives and more for said balanced diet.

You claiming that all meat and shit is unhealthy is a big fat lie.

>Can you explain what your quote here means then?
>Humans were not made to survive on just greens alone. We're supposed to eat a little bit of everything.

Precisely what it says. Humans are not designed to survive on just greens. This is because humans are not herbivores (or carnivores for that matter). Humans are omnivores.
Why do you think vegans have to eat very specific stuff and additional vitamin/mineral/etc supplements? Do you think our bodies were designed to eat pills and shit? Or these very specific greens in certain quantities that don't grow all around the world?

>>7708094
Do righteous indignant vegans taste better when they're slaughtered calm or agitated?

>>7710703
I'm going to preface and say that I'm not a researcher or an expect on this subject, so feel free to disagree with what I say.
>First off, I haven't seen any data that clearly suggests vegans live longer than other diet types.
Well, I admit that there isn't much data on exclusively vegans, as the data that does exist is on Seventh-day Adventists, who also don't drink alcohol, don't smoke, and don't touch caffeine, so that probably plays a role on life expectancy.

> Both diets include meat and fish.

Agree, however they eat meat on average one meal a week, and that meat is a small ~5 oz portion. That's far different than eating meat 2-3x a day that many people here assumes.

>But what seems silly to me is why we would want to do that? Some nutrients are most efficiently found in plant foods. Others are most efficiently found in meats. It seems silly to arbitrarily cut out an entire food group in exchange for a less ideal alternative.

Well, that touches onto my point on the negative effects that animals grown for food have on the enviornment, along with the cruelty factor, and how unnecessary meat is as there are viable, if not less efficient (in some cases) alternatives for nutrients found in meat.

>>7710755
>that meat is a small ~5 oz portion.

That's my point. If the best diets are LOW meat diets, why are people prattling on and on about NO-meat diets? It's taking things too far.

For any nutrient or foodstuff there's an ideal value for health. If you eat too much or too little then people run into health problems. I agree 100% that the average person probably eats too much meat and not enough vegetables. But that's not the same thing as considering meat automatically unhealthy. It simply needs to be consumed in lower amounts.

>>7708094
Have you considered that you might not be a good person? In fact you may actually be a terrible person. If you are, don't panic, you are not alone. Most vegans are horrible people. Their smug self-righteousness us only the beginning.
They tend to follow simplistic ideologies that are detrimental to the liberty of man.

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>>7708094
Thanks Goy

>>7710715
It is funny that you say my argument boils down to that it is just cruel to kill and eat meat. The only positive thing you say about meat in your entire post is that I enjoy it, which is the only logical reason that people (in first world countries) eat meat.

>forcing my belief on others
You are at your computer, browsing the internet, went to 4chan, and clicked on a thread about the benefits of being vegan. Where in that process did I force anything on you? Unless, by force, you mean the strength of my arguments forced you to see the best path, then sure, I forced my belief on you. I kid, of course, but let's not delude ourselves into I'm forcing you (or anyone else in this thread) to do anything.

>>7710728
I agree with you completely, the absolute healthiest diet might include some meat/animal products. However, for the average person, they will gain years on their life if they switch from a mixed animal/plant diet to a plant diet.

>>7710741
A well balanced diet is the best diet. However, there isn't anywhere that states that meat is a necessary part of a balanced diet. There are plant alternatives for everything that vegans/vegetarians supposedly lack, unless I'm missing something. Supplements and additives are not necessary for a plant based balanced diet.

>>7710774
Just because there are some diets that have observed health benefits doesn't mean it is already in its most ideal form. Personally, I'm not a researcher, a dietitian, nutritionist, a doctor, or anything like that, but I assume that the ideal amount of meat is far closer to no meat than it is to only meat (or even meat every meal), which is why I (and many vegan/vegetarians) say that no meat diets are healthier than most other diets.

>>7710819
The average person would gain wellness only from eating more veggies and gain nothing from excluding meat.

The amount of effort needed to ensure a complete nutrition diet from solely vegan sources is more than impractical. And the reasoning for doing so is based on a fantasy ideology that is far removed from reality.

>>7710819
>if they switch from a mixed animal/plant diet to a plant diet.

The same could be said for switching to a low-meat diet. So why the focus on "no meat"?

>>meat is a necessary part of a balanced diet
Absoloutely necessary? No, it's not required. But for many nutrients the animal sources are simply better than plant sources. Why would I choose a plant-based food for those nutrients when a meat-based one is more efficient? (The opposite is also true--many nutrients are most efficiently obtained from plant sources).

>>Supplements and additives are not necessary for a plant based balanced diet.
B12 is. And while the other nutrients can be covered by a vegan diet it also requires careful planning.

>>7710840
So you don't know what you are talking about, but because the point you arbitrarily pick is closer to your point than some extreme version of your opponent's position, that means any other position other than yours must be wrong?

>>7710840
You just admitted you don't know anything, only that you "feel" something is best so it is. Are you a chick?

>>7710787
>It is funny that you say my argument boils down to that it is just cruel to kill and eat meat.

Because it does boil down to precisely just that. It's not objectively more healthy to be a vegan. It's not unhealthy to eat meat.

>The only positive thing you say about meat in your entire post is that I enjoy it, which is the only logical reason that people (in first world countries) eat meat.

Yeah, and? Meat, etc. is not unhealthy and if I enjoy eating it that isn't enough?
Not everyone has these feelings of guilt you have and there is nothing wrong with it. Thinking you can convince people to suddenly stop eating meat because of some bleeding heart shit when people have been doing it for thousands of years is incredibly naive.
Also with your vegan shit you also have to factor in that bone meal, gelatin and more is present in more things than you're aware. Candy and non-diary (or soy w/e based) desserts for example.

You can't try and force your beliefs onto others by trying to guilt them into it or folling them into thinking that it's unhealthy, that's you manipulating people to force your ideas onto others. This is the worst possible way to go about it and is the main reason why so many people dislike vegans.

>>7710819
>However, there isn't anywhere that states that meat is a necessary part of a balanced diet.

Of course not. There isn't one thing that everyone needs to eat. Heck you can be a vegetarian and still be able to eat a balanced diet.
However, the more you limit what you're allowed to eat the less balanced your diet will realistically become. Being a vegan cuts away A LOT of stuff.
But there is no reason to become a vegan except for this "think of the poor animals!" mentality.

>>7710862
No, it's not. Regardless of your retarded pretentious autism

Are you just mad you're an obese sack of shit and reality is kicking in?

>>7711101
>it's not objectively more healthy to be a vegan

Wrong

>It's not unhealthy to eat meat

Objectively, 100% false

>and if I enjoy eating it, isn't that enough?
No, do you not understand the whole point of this? Are you just trying to be as obtuse and ignorant as possible? And it's only naive to waste breath on blatant retards like you that clearly have no actual care for anything but themselves

>durrr bone meal, etc.
Which is why you check ingredients and make sure it's actually vegan. Problem solved

Stating facts isn't manipulation, trying to convince people to a cause isn't manipulation. Appealing to logic and morality is completely fine

Just because you're an idiot that doesn't like it doesn't make it effective. It just highlights your own idiocy and inability to listen to actual reasoning. It makes you look worse in the end.

You're the reason why you get aggressive reactions from vegans

>think of the poor animals
And what's wrong with that? And no, it is entirely better for the environment and your health

>>7710868
Because no meat is better than any meat at all.

Christ is this really that hard to comprehend?

>are simply better than plant sources
And the downside of that includes diabetes, atherosclerosis, general high blood pressure, high amounts of carcinogens, etc.

>more efficient

Efficient in what way? You can be perfectly efficient on a plant based diet, both in acquiring nutrients and living healthily

>careful planning

Your whole diet regardless of who you are should be carefully planned.

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>another thread where a vegan jerks off over him missing out on 90% of human cuisine

>>7711150
90% of human cuisine isn't meat

>>7711160

90% of human cuisine uses meat or dairy products in their production.

>>7711163
Not even

>>7711136
>Wrong

By all means prove it. So far no one has.

>Objectively, 100% false

Again by all means prove it.

I bet you think something like tuna is super unhealthy.

>And it's only naive to waste breath on blatant retards like you that clearly have no actual care for anything but themselves

Yeah man. Because I eat meat I'm a selfish piece of shit.

>Which is why you check ingredients and make sure it's actually vegan. Problem solved

You do know that this kind of stuff is almost always unlisted? Especially when you eat out.

There are many vegans that don't even know that gelatin comes from animals.

>Stating facts isn't manipulation

Oh, so trying to trick people into thinking that eating meat, cheese and shit will make them die, etc. is not manipulating? That trying to guilt people into doing what you want them to do isn't manipulation? Etc.
Get the fuck out of here idiot, you don't even realize that you're precisely the reason why people don't like vegans. Your holier than thou attitude doesn't win you any friends, nor does any attempts and manpulation.

>You're the reason why you get aggressive reactions from vegans

Yeah dude. I don't give a single fuck what you shove in your mouth so I'm totally the reason. I only get annoyed by vegans when they do what you do. Telling me that I'm an unhealthy, selfish piece of shit because I'm not a vegan.

>it is entirely better for the environment

Top kek. Talk about being ignorant. You're like those people that think that electric cars are great for the enviroment, completely ignoring the actual production of said car, the batteries, etc.

>>7711118
Yes it is. Regardless of your retarded pretentious autism

Are you just mad you're a malnourished sack of shit and reality is kicking in?

>>7711166
>90%

You're right.
It's actually 100%.
All food production requires the death of another living thing.

Your vegetables are grown in farms that require fertilizers for sustainable yields.
Modern fertilizers are made as a byproduct of the petrochemical manufacturing. You're literally eating food grown on the fermented bodies of dinosaurs.

"Organic" fertilizers are worse. They require bone meal, ash and blood to provide the required "Holy Trinity" of soil nutrients (NPK).

You cannot escape the fact that your lifestyle is built on the death of other things. This is a basic requirement of living.

I'm glad that you're happy being a vegan, but the planet cannot sustain a 100% vegan populace. It cannot even support a 15% vegan populace.

Your food production only produces about 20% of its mass as edible food, the rest is inedible by humans waste product that, if we didn't have farm animals to feed it to, would rot or be burned.

Your lifestyle is a sham.
The proper lifestyle is omnivorous, with small amounts of meat.

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>my breakfast was yoghurt, muesli, blueberries, slice of bread with some lean cheese and a glass of water
>my dinner consisted of pancakes and berries
>my evening snack consisted of a tuna sandwich and a glass of milk after my 1h training session
>i'm unhealthy and i think about no one else

>>7711177
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=648593
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24523914
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19351712
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17518696

Basically a plant based diet is far healthier. It seems quite logical that excluding high fatty, artery clogging, carcinogenic, inflammatory foods while eating the opposite and very nutritious foods can lead to better health

>again by all means prove it
I'm going to show you the studies, but these really only proves your overwhelming willfull ignorance on the topic. And yes, tuna has tremendous amounts of mercury in it and is not healthy. The amount of heavy metals you find in fish is astounding.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/108/22/2757.full.pdf
Animal based foods are chock full of cholesterol, which has been proven since 1976 to be unhealthy for us and clog our arteries, not good at all.

IGF-1 found in meat, is quite unhealthy and can contribute quite significantly to carcinogenic buildup
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

Processed red meat is listed as a type 1 carcinogen by the World Health Organization, and unprocessed meat is listed as a type 2 carcinogen

Cooking all meat unleashes ammonias and carbons that are carcinogenic

I could give you studies for the entire day but I'll just leave these with you for now. There is substantial evidence there that you are glad to further explore

>because I eat meat I'm a selfish piece of shit
Not inherently, but your overall attitude about eating meat does make you one

>is almost always unlisted
Not really

>especially when you eat out
Then choose your dining options wisely, what do you want?

>trying to trick

There is no trick, using logic and viable research is not trickery. You can contest the results all you want, calling it trickery is fucking stupidity.

I'm going to need to split this into two

>>7711177
>trying to guilt

When the guilt is the mass slaughter of innocent animals and degradation of our environment, that's appealing to reason and morality, it is not the slightest bit guilt-tripping in the manner you are speaking.

You are precisely the reason why some vegans act out. Because you're a fucking retard.

I don't act holier than thou, I act like this when retards like you are this fucking stupid. Most vegans were meat eaters for a substantial part of their lives. But if some jackass like you just gladly flaunts his total ignorance, then you are going to be treated like one.

If you can't listen to reasonable argument because your feelings are hurt then you're just a fucking child

You are unhealthy, and you are acting selfish in this matter because you're a pompous retard, very willfully

>talk about being ignorant

Great argument. Says the retard that thinks meat is healthy, says the retard that is begging for evidence yet didn't distribute any thing here

Your response to this has nothing to do with veganism and the environment. It's like saying "Islam is bad yeah, but what about Christians!!!"

>>7711199
Obviously nothing is 100% free of something bad happening. The very existence of life can negatively affect other life. The point is being minimal through veganism.

Veganism != Organic

>but the planet cannot sustain a 100% vegan populace or 15% vegan populace, durr 20%

Absolute nonsense

>the proper lifestyle is omnivorous

Our biology and planet say otherwise

>>7711208
>http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=648593
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24523914
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19351712
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17518696

Just glazing over those articles makes me believe you haven't even read them or only choose to read whatever you want to read.

For example the very first link was based on a questionnare and the conclusion
>Conclusions Choices regarding diet, exercise, cigarette smoking, body weight, and hormone replacement therapy, in combination, appear to change life expectancy by many years. The longevity experience of Adventists probably demonstrates the beneficial effects of more optimal behaviors.
The group of people selected were what exactly? Do you remember?

Really, try again or don't waste my time in the first place. Pretty sick and tired of getting this kind of drivel from vegans.
You're a wannabe dietist that alters the narrative to fit his agenda. Nothing more.

>Not inherently, but your overall attitude about eating meat does make you one

Oh I see, you think you know me know based on me eating meat. Now that's funny, especially since you genuinely seem to believe that you're not delusional.

>Not really

Yes really. There are multiple cases of this. This is because they save money on using stuff like bone meal but if it got out it would severely hurt them. You're incredibly naive.

>Then choose your dining options wisely, what do you want?

The point is you can never be sure what it is your food contains unless you make it from scratch. Meaning to live by your strict code you pretty much always have to eat stuff you prepare from scratch. Do you do this? Are you saying everyone should do this otherwise they're selfish pieces of shit?

>There is no trick

Sure. So if I eat 500g of bacon but never anything else from the animal kingdom in my life, what happens? How many years, days or seconds do I shave off my life? How about 1kg total? Or 2kg?

>>7711201
Pretty much.

>>7708094
I think the best thing to do is limit how much meat you eat for now, and support the development of cultured/in vitro meat.

>>7711219
>When the guilt is the mass slaughter of innocent animals and degradation of our environment, that's appealing to reason and morality, it is not the slightest bit guilt-tripping in the manner you are speaking.

You're using this "mass slaughter of innocent animals and degradation of our environment" trite to force your ideas onto others. It's always this one thing (along with the lie of it being unhealthy) that you people shove in people's faces, trying to get them to also become vegans. People like you almost always also have this holier than thou attitude and when you combine it with the shit you push in people's faces it WILL annoy people, which you completely fail to understand. THAT is the very reason vegans are so disliked.
No one cares if someone is a vegan and never tries to force their ideas onto others. People don't dislike vegans because they're vegans, doofus. Yes someone might think that being a vegan is silly, but it doesn't go over to them disliking said person for it.

You're so absolutely terrible at converting people to becoming vegans it's downright hilarious. You're on a fucking crusade.

>>7711241
>just glazing over those articles makes me believe yada yada

Not an argument. You've cherrypicked one thing to dismiss every other single thing on.

>the group of pople selected were what exactly
I'm not even sure what you're asking here. I'm assuming you're asking what group of people, and it was Adventists in California. The validity of reported body weight to actual body weight had a positive correlation of 95%, so I do not particularly see why the questionnaire is that ineffective, is it the most effective form? No. But it still has base and isn't the only population study. You're also free to check the 7 Countries Study by Ancel Keys

Meanwhile I'm actually giving you evidence and you aren't even remotely defending anything about meat eating. You're claiming it's healthy with zero evidence. Here's another one about lipotoxicity of dietary saturated fats and transfats http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572653/

>based on me eating meat

Based on your pompous assholish attitude

>that alters the narrative
You aren't giving an argument. You're just whining about nothing because you're a fucking retard.

>there are multiple cases of this
This doesn't mean anything. That isn't evidence to support a larger narrative

It seems you're twisting the narrative to fit your own dumb viewpoint ironically enough

>you can never be sure

This is why you research into the products you're buying and have faith in certain processes. You seem to be more concerned with this than the ACTUAL processes involving meat. Being a selfish piece of shit, is being you, it's being an arrogant willfully pompous cocksucker that clearly doesn't care

>what happens

How the hell should anyone know? The consensus is that it is very unhealthy however. That is the point

Did you actually think this was an effective reply?

>>7711265
>to force your ideas on others

This is exactly how argument and debate work. What exactly is it that you're doing? Not trying to force me to believe that I'm wrong? This is stupid and not an argument and doesn't make the moral and environmental angles invalid.

>that you people will shove in peoples faces

That's not everyone. That usually only happens to retards like you anyway that flaunt their stupidity.

Your issue with veganism apparently isn't the facts, it's just the fact you're a little bitch who can't handle reality an resort to "MUH FEELINGS!!!" to justify the fact you're a fucking woman

>you're so absolutely terrible at converting people

If I try to "convert" someone to veganism. I don't use this form of argument. Primarily because those people aren't as fucking stupid as you

What exactly do you think you reflect as someone who gladly eats meat? You're being a willfully ignorant fucking retard who is not even supporting any of his claims and nonsensically dismisses an entire argument based on a silly complaint from one article.

You are the reason why vegans freak out. You are a fucking insufferable retard.

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>>7711290
>>7711301
Seriously, all I had to read to know not to bother with replying to you was this
>You are the reason why vegans freak out. You are a fucking insufferable retard.

What a fucking delusional muppet.

>>7711332
Thank you for affirming everything I've said.

You've ignored literally every piece of evidence and argument because you're a little fucking bitch that can't handle reality. You're the equivalent of a fucking SJW dismissing any opposing opinion.

How about you speed up the inevitable from stuffing your fat face every day and just fucking kill yourself you waste of fucking life.

>>7711332
>youre why people dont like vegans!!!
>>And youre why vegans freak out
>What an absurd assumption!!!!

>>7708157
Vegans are still responsible for the death of literally billions of mice, birds, and snakes. Crops destroy habitat, and pests are killed or poisoned just the same. All to protect your precious soybean.

Vegans have no place to speak of "morals" simply because you subsist on a diet of potatoes and faggotry. You're hypocrites that have decided that certain animal deaths offend you, while others do not.

As someone who buys local grass-fed beef, I kill fewer animals than you do and yet my freezer still stays full. A few mice may get stepped on, a few groundhogs may get shot. (The cattle step in the burrows and break legs.) I kill an animal raised for slaughter, and know full well that means an animal has to die.

You, meanwhile, participate in a full Watership Down mass slaughter of rodents as your fields are tilled and harvested... yet you don't even acknowledge they died. They're not "important enough" of animals to virtue signal over.

Unless you're growing your own food in a backyard garden you can shove your "morals" up your ass, right next to Jamal's cock.

>>7711424
>vegans are still responsible for the death of literally billions

And it's still literally billions less than a non-vegan diet

You're not fucking explaining anything new. The environmental effects of cattle are still TREMENDOUSLY detrimental, regardless of its grass fed or not. Your claims of billions is very well exaggerated

And cattle isn't the only food source.

The term "grass fed" is largely unregulated. Meaning your "grass fed" cattle can finish on corn. And the land required for this is substantially larger than feeding cows with grains. That is not without its obvious consequences

You're putting every single process of harvesting under one umbrella. That is not it how it works worldwide

>you don't even acknolwedge they died

Who is "you"? Who isn't acknowledging anything. Did you not even fucking read the post you were responding to? MINIMIZING

Amazonian cattle are the single most responsible cause for Amazonian deforestation. Amazonian cattle are grass fed. And these grass fed animals are still being slaughtered at quite large rates

I'm actually recognizing the impacts and taking impact to minimize. You're just being a complete arrogant asshole justifying his own stupid behaviors

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this thred to be desu

>>7711490
more like
>Jewish Tricks: the Thread - Why I fall for them and you should too.

>>7711490
Only VERY recently are meat eaters more vocal than vegans.

>>7711199

I don't have a steak in this argument, but petroleum comes mainly from the compression of algae and zooplankton over time, not from dinosaurs.

>>7711508
na it's been a thing since bacon was a meme, so maybe 10 years, I mean unless you are speaking on a cosmic scale

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>>7711508
idk how that would be even relevant anyway - you admit the anti-vegan squad are more vocal now

also people having been shilling meat/dairy/eggs since the beginning of time. Go outside and it won't be long before you see an advert for some "mega meaty supreme burger" from burgerdonalds. Also "bacon tho" memes, etc. Animals products are shoved down everyones throats its just so culturally ingrained that no one notices

>>7709194
people are allowed to care about multiple things

If any of you vegan faggots showed up at my house I'd shit in your food and serve it to you with a smile. Fucking freaks.

>>7713770
Edgy.

>>7708112
HURR HURR HURR fuckin omnivores amirite those assholes

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/woman-trying-prove-vegans-anything-143351368.html

>>7708168
What the fuck? Eating meat out of comfort?

How about because of scarcity of other food? There are plenty of places on Earth where a vegan diet is absolutely not sustainable and consumption of meat is necessary. Who are the Maasai warriors? The Inuit? Most of Scandinavia and Europe until modernization? The Native Americans over long winters? Come on you skunk, just because you have access to carrots and B12 supplements all year round doesn't mean everyone else does.

>people still arguing with this vegan psycho

Never ever argue with vegans. They just want to force their beliefs onto others.
Words like moderation are not in their vocabulary. You're either a vegan or you're satan.

>>7711490
It was started by a vegan.
Vegans then kept telling how cruel and unhealthy people were for not being vegan.
But keep playing the victim card here.