Hello anons
So I eventually decided to get some whetstones to sharpen my knives. I got really into cooking about 4 months ago and I have some nice knives, nothing too fancy but I like 'em
Anyway, I literally never sharpened them. Now I went to work at pic related for like 40 minutes so far. First on the 800 side, then on the 5000, then realized it's nowhere near sharp enough, and went to the 240 and got better results. Around 15 minutes on each grit
I just have to keep doing it right? I'm a bit worried because I thought I'd see improvements faster
I'm also using the helper thingy for the angle
General guidelines/advice? My aim is to get it to a state where it passes the paper cut test, where you just push the knife and it cuts through a sheet of paper, but I have a long way to go
>>7618315
Dated but relevant:
.http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/Juranitch1977Feb.htm
Oh and another question:
Will I get better/faster results on the 240 grit if the knife is really dull? And then sort of Polish it on the 5000 one
Is there any other point to polishing on a high grit stone besides aesthetics?
>>7618325
You shouldnt be using 240 at all unless you need to get chips out. Typically I go from 800 to 1200 then on up 200-400 grit per stone. Polishing makes it look better and can help you retain you edge for longer.
>>7618315
unless you're grinding chips out or rebeveling the blade, don't dip below 1000. You're just making more work for yourself and needlessly grinding material away.
If your blade was in rough shape before, reestablish your bevel on a lower stone, come to the next highest stone and go until the scratch pattern is consistent with the new stone. Go to the next highest stone and do the same. You're knife is now sharp relative to the blade geometry (bevel angle and such) and grit of final stone.
To maintain your sharp knife, use your steel halfway frequently, and when you notice it start to slow down, kiss it up on your highest or second highest stone (obviously then followed by the highest).
If you don't let your knife go to shit you shouldn't need the low stones for the reasons listed above. Its a hell of a lot easier to maintain an edge than constantly regrind it.
>>7618325
What do you intend cutting? Different grits are for different foodstuff if you see what I mean?
>>7618329
No need to go through so many steps (and aquire costly stones). I like the shapton professional stones, and if you import the japanese versions you can save quite a few bucks. I typically use the 8000 and 5000 stones. I have a 1000 for stuff that hasn't been taken care of or needs a little more work.
Secondly, the higher you go in polishing, the sharper the knife will be at a given geometry. Of course you start getting significantly diminishing returns after a point. For me, 8000 is a good stopping place.
Thirdly, polishing to a higher grit does nothing to retain the edge, other than it has farther to fall in terms of sharpness than a duller starting point would. Edge retention has everything to do with blade material, geometry, and of course how you use it.
>>7618330
>more work for yourself
damn right
you wouldn't _really_ expect it at first, but after 20 minutes you do feel the difference between using a very low grit stone and a high grit one
ok, I'll take a break and start again on the 800 one for 20 minutes or so and see
one thing that also got me slightly worried was that I couldn't really feel the burr on the other side; I guess I should just keep going a bit more until I can see/feel it?
thanks anons!
>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest
My father took a bunch of my knives and used a bench grinder in his garage to "sharpen" them...completely ruined. He got mad at me for getting pissed off over it..."i've been sharpening my knives like this for 30+ years who are you to tell me how to sharpen knives..." fucking cunt.
>>7618343
>Thirdly, polishing to a higher grit does nothing to retain the edge, other than it has farther to fall in terms of sharpness than a duller starting point would. Edge retention has everything to do with blade material, geometry, and of course how you use it.
When you do any sort of movement of metal in any situation you dont move it all at once, you do it in stages. You dont use your 500 grit stone for final geometry. So yes, higher grit stones do help with edge retention due to how they are used to get the final geometry on the edge.
>>7618350
Calling your father that word, that's not good my friend.
>>7618345
>ok, I'll take a break and start again on the 800 one for 20 minutes or so and see
Don't focus on the time, hone only as much as needed and preferably little to no further. Anything extra only removes material from the knife and the stone. To help gauge your progress, color the bevel with a sharpie so you can see which parts have been ground. Passed that you need to watch the scratch patterns. You want the current stone's pattern to completely replace the previous stone's.
>one thing that also got me slightly worried was that I couldn't really feel the burr on the other side; I guess I should just keep going a bit more until I can see/feel it?
Don't worry about it too much, its an undesirable side effect of sharpening, although as you said it can be used to gauge where you are.
>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest
You're goddamned right.
>>7618354
No they fucking don't you idiot. If you're changing the angle that you're presenting the work to the stone you're changing the geometry, its not the polishing that's doing it its the change in angle.
If you're talking about adding a microbevel to the primary bevel at the last stone, then that's a technique completely separate from polishing. And it changes the geometry to a wider angle which is why it would increase edge retention. Again, nothing to do with polishing.
>>7618354
And also, yes you do use your lowest stones (or grinder) for setting the geometry. The entire point of coarse stones to quickly remove a larger amount of material. Which is exactly what you want when you're changing/setting geometry.
Only exception where a high stone changes geometry (intentionally) is the microbevel.
>>7618377
>>7618365
yea I usually try to be as clear as I can in the first 2-3 posts, so I can get something useful out of the thread before it turns into full-blown-shitposting
>color the bevel
oh right, forgot about that trick
>hone only as much as needed and preferably little to no further
well it is sharper than it was, that's for sure, but I feel it's a long way from being properly sharp so...I'll keep at it
>>7618387
>well it is sharper than it was, that's for sure, but I feel it's a long way from being properly sharp so...I'll keep at it
I mean at each stone. Obviously go as high as you can. Once the stone's scratch pattern replaces the previous one, honing further doesn't change anything. The surface is as good as its going to get from that stone.
Why don't you guys just use an electric grinder? Can restore a sharp edge in barely a few mjnutes. The idea of spending endless time hand rubbing it against sharpening stones seems painful and unnecessary.
>>7618373
You are one salty fuck you know that?
I guess then whenever I work with any type metal I should just hog it out with the most abrasive or deepest cutting thing I have. Why use a finishing pass on anything when I can leave the surface rough and uneven?
Here I was taught in all metal working courses/machining courses that the better the surface finish the longer whatever part you have made will last, I guess I better go back and tell those people that they were wrong and some random sperg from 4chins knows better than they do.
Mandatory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIw5ChGOADE
>>7618395
Higher stones are the finishing pass dumbass. I also didn't say the coarsest thing you have, I said coarser stones, as in those in the 200-500 region. You go in there with a piece of 60 grit sandpaper and you're gonna have a big ass mess to clean up later.
>Why use a finishing pass on anything when I can leave the surface rough and uneven?
My point was you don't use the fine cutter to remove lots of material, you use it to refine the surface. Just like you don't use the rough chipper to make a mirror finish, you use it to cut whatever it is into shape.
>>7618393
I don't use an electric grinder because they don't do a very good job, and many of them generate sufficient heat to damage the temper of the blade.
I use water stones. I can put a crazy sharp edge on a knife in just a couple of minutes.
>>The idea of spending endless time hand rubbing it against sharpening stones seems painful and unnecessary.
I agree 100%. If it's taking that long then someone is doing something wrong.
>>7618402
>My point was you don't use the fine cutter to remove lots of material, you use it to refine the surface
Which is what I said you autistic fuckwit. Everyone who has ever worked on metal knows that you use fine grits/ fine cutters for final passes and here you were saying that it doesnt matter because it only takes off a small amount of material. Hence why it is called a finishing pass not a rough hog. Jesus this board get more autistic each day.
>>7618395
>I was taught in all metal working courses/machining courses that the better the surface finish the longer whatever part you have made will last
Machinist here. That's certainly true if you're talking about metal parts which are in contact with each other and sliding/rolling around under load. But what does that have to do with kitchen knives? Kitchen knives touch food, not other hard metal objects. Food is so soft compared to the knife steel that polishing makes no difference as far as longevity is concerned.
>>7618408
>Which is what I said
Uh... no you didn't you said "You dont use your 500 grit stone for final geometry."
Which yes you do. With the exception of the microbevel technique. Cleaning up the surface with higher stones, your so called finishing pass, is not changing the geometry of the knife (unless you fuck up your angle), its refining the surfaces that make that geometry.
Natural Stone master race reporting in
You don't need a million stones to do good edges. I've been doing sushi on the west coast and asia for 11 years now, I have 3 naturals. Their rough grit ratings(naturals are not equivalent to synthetic) are
>1000-2000
>3000-8000
-11,000-18,000
I use the finest stone almost every day, 3-4 passes each side, the medium every month or two, and the coarsest once or twice a year. The first time you set an edge should take 30-40 minutes with practice.
OP it sounds like you might be refining the blade too much or using improper technique
>>7618416
500 grit is way too coarse unless your blade needs major work like removing chips, changing the angle of your primary bevel, or changing the belly.
Normal sharpening for a knife that isn't fucked up can start at 1000 easily, perhaps even finer.
Op just buy one of these.
>>7618451
Why? With normal stones you'd already be done compared to the time it takes to assemble that thing. Op doesn't need an overly complex gadget. He simply needs to learn to use the tools that he already has.
>>7618458
Anon...its not complex at all.it takes like a minute to snap together and your angle will be near perfect consistency.
>>7618473
I am very familiar with Lanskys; I used them often back when I was a kid in boy scouts.
By the time you're done fastening the guide rods to the stones and clamping the knife in the little clamp thing I'd already be finished sharpening the knife using waterstones freehand.
>>7618473
>implying you can't get the same results freehand
Guided sharpening is for people too lazy to learn proper technique or too afraid of fucking up to try.
OP done for the day. Still have a long way to go but I learned a few things:
>angle holder left fucking marks
>focus more and apply a bit more pressure
>don't be a cheap bitch next time and get a goddamn levelling stone
Pic related, sloppy job results in fuckups like that smudge looking bit
Well at least it's quite a bit sharper, and the onion that I just chopped knows what I mean
Post you knives I guess? Webm with demo of sharpness?
If I ever get it as sharp as I want it, I'll make another thread to brag lol
>>7618315
>>7618699
It doesn't take that long to sharpen a knife. As another anon said, it's probably your technique.
Pressure should be about the same amount of force you scratch an itch with.
And the blade edge should catch the flat of your fingernail. That's about as sharp as you'd need it for everyday cooking, practically speaking.
>>7618699
>angle holder
I took my knives to the place where I bought them because they said they'd sharpen them.
They came back with scratches all over them. This was a sushi shop/japanese grocery store and my knives have all been at least $200 each.
The tip also snapped off one of them. Really pissed me off. . .it wasn't as if I was cutting bone or anything. I blame it on that bad sharpening job.
I love my knife though.
Got a few questions for you knifefags;
Are taidea water stones any good?
I have one with 100/400 grit, which one should I buy next? More or less than 1500?
>>7618756
* I also impulse bought a sushi knife and it's sitting in the drawer. Is it worth it spending the time to get used to it? It's too long, single edged, etc. but I don't just want to give it away. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask; no /sqt/ thread.
>>7618758
>100/400 grit
lol
500 if you need to make a new edge
1000 or 2000 for sharpening
6000 or 8000 for finishing
>>7618772
I got the 100/400 as a gift, but I assume it's good to have a coarse one like that, may come in handy
thanks for the info, should I get a taidea one too?
>>7618758
OP here
Anon I've already done this like an entire time in my life
So I'm an expert if I may say so myself, my masterpiece can be seen in the pictures of this thread
I can tell you from my more-than-worldy-experiences that you need a ~1k stone and (if you're feeling rich) a 5-8k stone for polishing
And this thread is why I made pic related at fucking 23:30 on a workday
But that onion man.
That one onion that went in didn't know what was coming
>>7618785
thanks for the answer man
and that pic looks godly
>>7618325
I got 1200 to 2500 or something like that on my 2 sides stone. Those low grits are best for a complete new edge, like if its chipped or just in terrible shape. Though, I have a high carbon steel Japanese knife.
>>7618734
>catch the flat of your fingernail
I'm not too sure what that means?
other points of reference I've read about are:
- being able to cut the hair on your arms
- slicing the top off a tomato half without holding it or anything
- cutting through a piece of paper without any slicing motion
and mine isn't near any of those so...
>>7618802
Place the edge of the knife against your fingernail and drag it along, like pic related. If the knife is sharp it should "catch" on your fingernail. If it's not sharp it will just slide off.
Note that the idea is to slide the knife "off" your fingernail, not a cutting motion as if you were trying to cut your finger.
>>7618819
forgot pic like a moron
>>7618409
Interesting.
>>7618756
>came back with scratches all over them
Yikes! They should apply tape to the part of the blade not being sharpened so those scuff marks don't happen.
>>7618345
>within half an hour this thread will turn into a shit-throwing contest
Not yet. Let me help by posting my set up. It usually pisses people off.
Used the 320 to put a new tip on one of my friend's knives. Turned out pretty good.
Usually just use the 1k and 6k.
Shapton glass stones, FWIW.
>>7618768
If by sushi knife you mean yanagiba like pic related, go for it. They can be fun to use once you figure out how to use it properly
>>7618832
Please don't give this advice.
Sure, it's a good way to check the sharpness of an edge, but its unsuitable to check edge sharpness across the blade on large knives without running a major risk of injury
I know, I know, you've been doing this for years and it's never happened. But there are much better and faster ways to check edge sharpness that won't result in lost digits.
>pull through a piece of paper, one motion
should be no tearing
>shaving hair is equally dangerous
However, you can check the entire length of the blade faster due to larger surface area
>pull cut on veggies
without applying downward pressure, attempt to slice a vegetable
Does the blade catch? Does it slide off? Sharp blades will catch, and fall through softer veg
>>7619918
not the anon you're replying to but fucking hell
Wish I would've thought of the tape trick before starting yesterday ;__; I mean it's not that scratched but it ain't as pretty
Also, that's a pretty nice set, but I have no idea what the device on the right is
>>7620497
Apex Edge Pro.
Rod guided sharpening system, industry standard.
>>7620515
Ah OK. As expected, this is quite outside my budget
I think I just need to get a levelling stone and gitgud at sharpening with the ones I have
>hate waiting for deliveries
>>7620735
You can make a poorman's leveling stone with some sandpaper, a piece of glass, and (ideally) spray adhesive or tape.
>>7620515
>industry standard.
Industry? Lol. The only "Industry" that uses those is gearfag hobbyists. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but no professional uses those.
>>7618343
>Secondly, the higher you go in polishing, the sharper the knife will be at a given geometry.
How are you defining sharpness here? Lower grit edges have larger microscopic teeth and more thickness variation between teeth and scallops, but on average a coarse edge can be just as thin as a highly polished edge.
What changes is the balance between slicing aggression and push cutting sharpness, rather sharpness per se.
If you can't sharpen a blade with a 5 dollar tool sharpener (pictured) then you just don't know how to do that shit in the first place, leave that expensive shit to people who need them.
>>7618699
Unless you plan to only own a knife for show, then nobody and nobody gives a fuck about a smudge. It is a tool, they get used.
OP, just buy a cheapo belt grinder from Harbor Freight and a decent selection of belts, you can put a perfect mirror edge on any knife in 5 minutes without all this B. S. it's not the fucking stone ages
>>7621068
This.
>>7621068
unbelievable as it may be, I'm not in the states
and a decent electric belt one I see it would cost me 3 times what I paid for the stones
and besides, it's literally my first time sharpening a knife, so I didn't want to go all out from the start
is there any pro/con for using an electric belt one as opposed to putting all the work into using a stone?
for reference, what I found is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnZsrmCZPJs
>hate these fucking promo vids tho
that thing is like 170 euros here
*sigh*
god forbid this shit board would ever get a sticky
>>7618315
>15 minutes
>240-grit stone
It is very likely that the angle guide you are using does not match the factory edge bevel of the knife you are sharpening, and as a result you are probably hitting the shoulders of the edge rather than the apex itself.
I would recommend you colour in the edge bevel on both sides with permanent marker, let it dry for five minutes, and then make a few passes per side on the 240x stone. Where the marker has been removed is where the stone is polishing the knife.
If the marker is not being removed from the apex, then you will have to spend a decent amount of time with the 240x stone re-profiling the edge to match the angle of the guide you have attached to the knife.
Also, I would recommend that you stick to sharpening one side (without alternating sides) of the edge on the 240x stone until you have an obvious burr along the whole length of the edge, and only then flip the knife over and sharpen the other side on the 240x until you again have a burr along the whole length of the edge on the other side. This will guarantee that the two edge bevels meet at an apex, and is the most foolproof way of ensuring that.
Only once you have formed a burr along the whole length of the edge on both sides would I bother moving to finer stones, and on those finer stones you should frequently alternate sides and only make as many passes as necessary to replace the scratch pattern from the previous stone.
Finally, once you are on the last stone you intend to use, I would make 1-2 very VERY light alternating passes per side at about 45 degrees to cut off any burr remaining on the edge, and then make 5-10 very VERY light alternating passes per side at the original angle you were using to set the apex. It's very important to remove any burr from the edge before you finish the apex because a burr is made up of weakened metal that will tend to tear-off when you use the knife, damaging the apex behind it.
>>7621227
>s there any pro/con for using an electric belt one as opposed to putting all the work into using a stone?
Belt sander is faster, but you can easily mess up the blade if you are not careful. That can happen for two reasons:
1) the sander removes material so fast you can easily mess up the bevel angle
2)the sander generates a lot of heat, which could damage the temper of the blade if your technique is bad.
3)the sander will get a decent edge but it will never be truly "razor sharp" because fine enough belts simply don't exist for tools like that.
>>7618420
It should be self-evident that if he is spending thar much time on a 240x stone and not getting a huge burr, that he must not be hitting the apex.
Going to finer grit will just make it take longer.
>>7621068
No. Power grinding a knife edge without active liquid cooling is almost guaranteed to damage the heat treatment of the edge, not even to mention how much material it wastes.
Just learn to freehand properly, it isn't that hard. I can take a knife from dull enough to slide off newsprint to push-cutting newsprint at 90 degrees across this grain in 10 minutes.
The hard part is figuring out who to listen to, since many of the people who give advice about sharpening have a pretty poor understanding of it.
>>7621287
>>7621269
I also got the same feeling after a while...
Well desu I didn't have any kind of bevel before starting with the sharpening yesterday
Like I said, I use a crummy angle helper that keeps it at the angle in oic related. Thought that'd be enough
>>7621350
I have no fucking clue how the desu got in there, prolly using the wrong language setting lol
>>7621350
If your knife was ever actually finished being made it had a bevel, it was likely very small, however. You don't need, nor necessarily want huge bevel cheeks. Other posts have probably addressed why you're not getting anywhere. In the future try to maintain whatever bevel angle the knife already has.
>>7621311
not even remotely close to true especially on a belt sander
you have to practice a bit, and you sure can damage a knife a lot quicker on a sander than a whetstone, but it's 110% the better tool
>>7621278
>it will never be truly "razor sharp" because fine enough belts simply don't exist for tools like that.
>what is a 6000gt sanding belt from Amazon
>what is a strop belt and polishing paste
you have no idea what you're talking about. you can machine any edge you want on a belt with minimal work and get a better result than by hand in 1/5 the time.
Autism and period reenactment cosplay are the only reasons to sharpen by hand
>>7621623
>>7621640
Actually, it is well known to be true. A belt sander will burn most knife steels to a depth of several microns within a few seconds.
You should have active water cooling to power grind martensitic steels. This is why most custom makers have active liquid cooling on their rigs.
Again, it takes 10 minutes to sharpen a knife by hand to the point it will trivially push cut newsprint. Why even bother with a belt sander?
>>7621359
theres a wordfilter
for t b h
>knife thread
>angry autistic yelling, some of it actually not wrong
Never change, guys
>>7621739
It's inevitable because it is not possible to directly observe the apex of a knife except by electron microscope.
Because of this, it is hard to establish direct cause and effect relationships between tools and techniques and their effect.
And because of THAT, online discussions about sharpening are dominated by old wives tales and half truths mixed with lies.
none of you here actually cook
take your discussion to /k/
>>7621803
It's perfectly possible to have a rational discussion of a subject about which accurate observations are difficult or impractical. The only thing is the participants need to agree to acknowledge what's fact and what's speculation.
>>7621812
I do
I even posted the last thing I made here >>7618785
>>7621577
if it ever existed, it was fucking tiny
anyway, I went ahead with what two anons suggested and went to town with the 240 one for like half an hour or so
applied a bit more pressure than last time as well
fucking burr man! feels way sharper now; a bit rougher of course, but at least there's progress
the bevel is also a bit bigger
I'll do another round of 240 tomorrow I think, and then go to the 2000 one
so my next question is:
what's the reasoning behind going through multiple steps of stones? like in my case, what would be the advantage of going 240>800>2000>5000 instead of just 240>5000?
the angle would stay the same; is it just to not scrape off too much of the finer stones if you jump from a very rough one?
>this was my friday night lol
>>7621864
>shitty looking weeb noodles
>no cutting required for any of the ingredients
I expected as much
>>7621350
>that grip
>for sharpening
are you a ninja or something?
>>7621864
If you got a burr along the whole length on both sides, then you don't need to use the 240x any further and should start moving to finer stones.
Just remember in the future to make sure you grind on your starting stone on ONE side of the knife until you have a burr along the whole edge, then flip the knife over and repeat.
Then move to finer stones. As to why people use progressions of stones, it is because smaller jumps in grit make shorter work on each stone. Basically, it will be faster to go 240 > 800 > 2000 > 5000 than to go 240 > 5000 because the 5000 stone will take an eternity to fully replace the scratch pattern of the 240.
>>7621832
Right, but since most people's sharpening knowledge is deeply colored by assumptions with no objective verification, and its largely impossible to objectively compare sharpness achieved over the internet, the net result is most people assume that what they think they know about sharpening is gospel, and you cannot convince them otherwise since you can't point to easily verifiable independent data to disprove them.
Even worse, there are people out there who actually knowingly spread disinformation an misinformation out there, usually out of an ulterior motive or just to try and keep feeling special about what they have figured out.
If you don't believe me, feel free to go spend some time trying to discuss sharpening in several of the popular knife communities online and see for yourself.
I have a 1000 and a 6000 water stone.
I generally do a few minutes on the 1000 and a few minutes on the 6000 every 3 or 4 months (yeah I know I let my POS henkels get way too dull by doing it so infrequently).
Should I really just go straight to the 6000 every time since I don't have any obvious blade chipping / damage?
I also don't have a honing steel, every time I look on amazon the only ones I can find are 'sharpening steels' which may or may not be correct.
I've got whet/strop/paste for my cut throat, but never tried sharpening my shitty kitchen knives. BRB TO THE CUT FACTORY.
>>7623282
Short answer Yes
Long answer:
I would recommend once a week with the 6000 to maintain a near pefect edge. Especially if your knife is a harder steel. If you're a home cook that uses your knife often (4-5 times a week), this will be ideal maintenance. Only when you get noticeable damage of the blade should you worry about using the 1000. The weekly maintenance should cut down your use of the 1000 to every 6-8 months
> Won't this oversharpen and wear the blade faster
In my experience, honing using very high grit stones is more effective and "burns" less steel than using a honing rod or sharpening steel. You don't need to play with it for 20 minutes, 4-8 passes on each side will do just fine
>>7623282
There is a trade-off between frequency of sharpening and what grit you can start at.
If you touch-up your knives very frequently, then you could start at the 6000 stone, but if you are going to the stones every few weeks, then you are better off starting with the 1000.
As an example, I finish my edges on a leather bench strop with 16 micron CBN emulsion, and if I briefly touch up my knives after any day they are used, I can keep them sharp enough to trivially push-cut newsprint for several weeks.
>>7623711
Honestly, the amount of steel removed by a 6000 stone is so small that I wouldn't even waste my time worrying about it.
The average home user probably won't put enough passes on a 6000 stone in their life to visibly reduce a blade's height.
OP here again
after getting a big-ish burr (I think?) yesterday with the 240, today I went at it with the 800 until the burr "switched sides" so to speak, then 2000, then the 5000
it's definitely sharper and it looks all nice and shiny
but it's still not as sharp as I'd want it (cutting through paper), and I'm getting the feeling that I can't get it sharper than this
can any metal get that sharp? could that be the reason? or do I go with the 240 again at some point and then all the others to get it smooth
>dat feel of diminishing results
>>7624049
and for a bit more clarification/details:
the angle is the same all the time since I user a helper and make sure it's in the right position
I switched to a higher-grit stone only after the bevel had completely different scratch patterns like the other anon said; well, from the 2k to the 5k I got a bit lazier and tired, but otherwise I took my time
I think I'm in a similar position to you OP, I can get knives sharp enough to go through paper and cut things like spring onions without pushing, but not sharp enough to shave with.
>>7624064
it's a tough living anon
>inb4 I actually need to buy a 200+ euro knife
>>7624059
>>7624049
very few people have the fine motor skills to take advantage of 5000 on a freehand angle with a kitchen knife. let alone know whether they have the skills or not, and are applying them correctly
this works for razors because the spine holds the angle, and the blade isn't curved
if you want to shave, use shaving equipment. for 200+ euros you can put together a respectable entry level setup
>>7624049
If you can't cut paper then it sounds like you're doing something wrong. Using some smoothed sandstone I can get enough of an edge on $5 Kiwi-brand knives to cut paper and do the weird arm hair test and I'm about as far from experienced as you can get.. You're removing the burr right?
>>7624174
slate*
>>7624174
yea, I run it over the stone until I have plenty of burr, then switch sides, get burr again on the other side, go to higher level grit, etc
>>7624174
>>7624210
>>7624182
Dunno if this helps, was taken with shitty phone camera, but it's focussed on the lower part of the picture
Shape might not be perfect, I know
>>7621664
>le burned edge meme
the only craftsmen in the world that are this autistic about edges are home cooks, I swear it's a kind of learned helplessness.
>>7624254
It's not like water cooled grinders are rare or expensive
10 bucks says you're one of those sketchy traveling knife sharpener van guys and you know you can drum up more business if you detemper all the blades you touch so you can be called back and paid for more work more often
I have an old hand me down whetstone that has been worn so far it has a concave shape.
I also have a honing rod that has been nicked and sliced every which way you can imagine.
I bet I can get the same results using only those two that you guys get using 6 stones, a belt sander and three $100 honing rods.
>>7624277
I can absent mindedly scrape a butter knife on the bottom of a soup bowl and it passes the hanging hair test. I do this every time I clear the table, I don't even have "special sharpening time" like you spergs.
Get back to me when you no longer need proprietary, knife-specific special sharpening gear. All you're telling me is you're lacking in basic life skills. Honestly, I don't even know why I try to help you people. I am just a good person, obviously.
>>7624049
Can you colour in the edge on both sides with permanent marker, let it dry for 5 minutes, and them make a few passes on each side on the 5000 stone to make sure the stone is hitting the apex?
Assuming the answer to the above is yes, and you got a burr along the full length on both sides as you said, the problem is most likely that you have not removed that burr.
The best approach to removing a burr requires a bit of a delicate touch. What you want to do is make 1 VERY VERY VERY light alternating pass per side on the 5000 stone at about 45 degrees.
This is the best way to cut off a burr without damaging the edge behind it.
After you make 1 very light pass per side at 45 degrees, go back to using the angle guide and make 10 very light alternating passes per side on the 5000 stone. This removes the tiny microbevel you made cutting off the burr.
>>7624138
I don't think that is true at all. The only thing sloppy freehanding technique is going to do with a 5000 grit stone is make it take longer to fully replace the previous scratch pattern, and induce a tiny bit of curvature in the bevel.
Neither should have any substantive effect on final sharpness.
Hell, if you use a microbevel to set the apex of a knife, then sloppy freehanding technique becomes totally irrelevant because you will cut under the previous apex anyway.
>>7624254
Yes, it's so much of a meme that it has been the subject of extensive study and documentation by P.H.D Metallurgist Roman Landes:
http://www.hypefreeblades.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=682#p5579
Please stop trying to mislead people into damaging their knives by dry power grinding them.
>>7624277
There is actually no chance of that, mostly because dished benchstones are a bit of a nightmare to work with.
Besides, waterstones are better because they cut massively faster than any other type of abrasive while tending to minimize burr formation compared to other types of abrasives.
Really, though, all it really takes to get amazing results is a true, flat 1000 grit waterstone and a leather bench strop with a 10-20 micron abrasive paste on it.
That combo will take a knife that can't slice newsprint and get it push-cutting newsprint at 90 degrees across the grain in less than 10 minutes.
>>7624258
No, but guess what, 90% of the resturants in the world send their knives out to be sharpened on a belt sander.
I've built houses, worked on farms, built and restored furniture, chopped a lot of wood and used pretty much every tool there is with an edge. Nobody hand sharpens a flat edge.
>>7624357
ohlookitsthisthreadagain.jpg this dude has one obscure paper that has nothing to do with knives and says "you have to meet my absurd testing criteria otherwise i'm right neenerneenerneener"
horse apples. he needs to provide proof, not ask for it. the only thing you need to do to not burn up your edge on a belt sander is not be a retard.
>>7624387
Sorry, you don't get to ignore published scientific research. Using special thermometers to measure the temperature right at the edge being ground, it was found that temps regularly exceeded 1,000F to a depth of several microns almost immediately when power grinding without active liquid cooling.
This temperature is quite enough to damage the heat treatment to that same depth.
You can also read a few dozen threads at Blade Forums where this topic has been discusses and several knife makers have chimed in on the subject:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=belt+sander+burn+edge+knife&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=btIkV8XbM-b4jgS-3o1Y#q=belt+sander+burn+edge+knife+site:www.bladeforums.com
There is a good reason most custom makers use actively liquid cooled rigs.
Also, if you look into edge retention testing you will see that many many people report edge retention on their knives increasing substantially after a few hand sharpenings. This is because they are getting under the edge burned at the factory.
What's with the Reddit spacing in this thread
>>7624458
lines between text looks better when you are writing long sentences about how many dicks you like to suck on a daily basis
faggot
>>7624458
I dunno but I see it in a lot of knife threads, I think there is something about knife spergery that causes attention-seeking behavior. There was one where an autistic retard flooded the thread with copypasta from some other forum, while posting webms of his fat hands stabbing phone books. It was hilarious and pathetic at the same time.
>>7624463
>hilarious and pathetic at the same time
Isn't that just 4chan as a whole?
>>7624320
I did the marker test, and as expected, it goes away (yes it's permanent marker, left it to dry, etc)
how could it be that I don't remove the burr? I certainly can't feel it anymore, and if I run the knife along the stone for as long as I did, while having proper angle and already proven that it does get the apex, then the burr should be done with pretty soon after I switch sides
besides pointless banter and "I bet I could bla bla", could someone who can cut paper/shave with it explain in a bit more detail what they're doing to get to that point?
>>7624724
And for even more reference, I was saying before how the knife initially barely had any bevel
It had at most the same sized bevel as the one in pic related (smaller knife I have)
So if you compare it to the last pic I posted, you'll see quite a big difference. Could this be the reason why it's not sharp enough yet? I'm out of ideas and somewhat tired of all the sharpening in the last 2 days...
>>7624743
>I posted it again
Hi, sorry to crash your thread but I do have a knife question among others...
>>7624921
>hopeless self bump
J-just tell me what to do!
>>7624724
Because as you move to higher grits and alternate sides you just make the burr smaller, you don't eliminate it completely.
Please try what I suggested above, making 1 ultra light alternating pass per side at around 45 degrees on the 5000 stone, and then about 10 alternating passes per side on the angle you were using with the guide.
If that doesn't lead to an obvious increase in sharpness, let me know, and I'll see what else I can come up with.
>>7624455
>published scientific research.
funny how you can't seem to cite any primary sources
>>7625244
The bulk of Roman Landes work is in German. He presented an English language lecture on his findings at the New England Bladesmith Guild's seminar at Ashokan in 2013.
No one has even attempted to refute his work scientifically since. As is usual in the cancerous world of online knife discussions, they instead continue to brazenly lie and mislead people because of their own ulterior motives.
