The Eternal Debate: Jap, Jerry or Francoshit
>Why did newbie show up with a Takeda on his first day of garde manger?
>Why is Thiers-Issard so based?
>When will Jerryfags learn?
>>7163284
My knives are Swedish, and they're not the best, but they're okay for a beginner or students first set.
It was recommended to me that I keep them in good shape and maybe trade up in a few years.
>>7163284
My knives were forged in the USA.
They're amazing.
Aura knives are very beautiful and extremely well made.
Based Thai knives from Kiwi. They cost like $4. Don't hold an edge very long but they're massively easy to sharpen.
>>7163501
>Aura
Am I mistaken in thinking they're selling butter knives for $50?
>>7163501
>Aura
those look stamped and treated
i don't know if those are worth 600 dollars
at that point i would go nip.. no question about it.
>>7163501
>I paid $600 for a fancy handle
top kek
>>7163540
They don't make anything other than kitchen knives.
>>7163556
Hand forged high carbon steel, it's not treated with sulfuric acid and polished to a shine like most people are accustomed to, it's a more raw material. I like the way it looks and nothing ever sticks to my blades because of this "roughness" factor.
>>7163564
See post above.
>>7163588
Palm Wood Energy Transfer
The burl wood handle is matched to the blade by a matrix of palm wood, whose fibers are aligned in the direction of the cutting stroke to provide maximum power transfer
you've bought a meme knife worse than a shun.
.
>>7163501
for that money i would personally go for OP's knife.
>The Eternal Debate: Jap, Jerry or Francoshit
Jap for extreme high-end, franco for high to midrange, german for beginners
>Why did newbie show up with a Takeda on his first day of garde manger?
he got too excited and blew his load early.
>Why is Thiers-Issard so based?
TI elephant sabatier is a fine midrange knife if you can remember to DRY them after use because they can and will corrode if not properly taken care of.
>When will Jerryfags learn?
they tend to learn a year or two after trying to brunoise with a battleaxe.
now for shoes
dansko: meme or must-have? i swear by them.
>>7163751
what the fuck, is that a 70s anime villain, or a cooking knife?
>>7164096
it's a meme knife
cuts just fine but instantly and irrevocably turns you into Line Cook Liberace
>>7163751
what have you got against shun?
>>7164841
he probably dropped one at work and got sent to
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>>7165052
>>7165056
>>7165059
>>7165064
I am looking to get my brother a chef or santoku knife and maybe a paring knife for christmas since he is moving into his own apartment and needs basics.
I have about $50 to spend so I was thinking maybe JA Henckels unless there is a better brand at that price point?
He is not a chef but he is learning to cook real food so I want to get him something he won't hate. Any ideas or suggestions?
>>7167813
You can't get a good quality (tokubetsu juyo token or higher) san-tō-ku with NBTHK and chain of custody from the original 人間国宝 without spending at least ¥3 million. Just get him an Ikea bouchou, a more expensive bouchou isn't going to make his ebi taste any fresher. He won't even know how to take care of it properly.
>>7167813
http://thesweethome.com/reviews/the-best-chefs-knife-for-most-cooks/
>Wustof Pro
http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-paring-knife/
>Victorinox 3¼-inch paring knife
35 bucks total. Or get him the Tojiro DP and spend your whole budget and get no paring knife.
I want to buy one from this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0f2b_0kn0
>>7167921
>those knives
>>7167921
no but seriously those must cost thousands of dollary-doos.
>>7167921
There's also this guy.
https://youtu.be/BqanJCj__NM
>>7168902
weaboo of knives?
I have three of Kiyoshi Kato's knives.
Totally worth it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgtFgJR-U_E
I run with a 12 inch Wustof and a Morakniv. I switch them out when the mood strikes me. Both are champs at everything for prep and the line as long as I keep an edge on them
>>7169021
You shouldn't run with knives.
>>7169026
ᖗಠᴥಠᖘ
>>7163284
The first thing someone should do is to learn how to sharpen. Ideally by freehanding on waterstones as the fastest way to achieve any given grit of finish.
Learning to sharpen your kitchen knives is critical to you actually getting them to perform as they should, and there is no sense in buying anything but dirt cheap knives if you don't know how to maintain them.
Then I would go Japanese as their kitchen knives tend to be run at the highest hardness, and that is very useful for high sharpness edge-retention. Just don't try to cleave bones with it.
>>7169026
You're a regular Dane Cook there aren't you?
>>7169047
I am literally a Dane Cook.
I'm a cook from Copenhagen.
>>7163284
Who would buy a dirty knife like that?
>>7169042
>Just don't try to cleave bones with it.
What would I use to cleave bone? Chinese?
>>7169303
Cleave her a bone!
>>7169303
A cleaver, obviously. Ideally a German one, since they are designed to be tough enough to do it.
Basically, you need thicker, softer steel to be able to handle chopping through hard objects like bones and Japanese kitchen knives are usually both quite a bit thinner and harder than German/French knives, making them a very poor choice for bones.
>>7169399
You know Japan is a country, not a kind of knife?
If you need to cut bones heavier than what a western deba or honesuki can manage, you probably need a bone saw anyway. Are you seriously suggesting that a sab chef knife is good for bashing through femurs?
Zwilling J.A. Henckels Master Race, here. Sharpened routinely with a whetstone, honed every use. Sharp as a motherfucker and cheap as fuck.
>>7169328
lold
>>7169437
>sab chef knife
He said a CLEAVER, not a chef's knife.
>>7169437
Did you manage miss the part where I specified a CLEAVER?
Also, are you going to sit there and pretend that Japanese kitchen knife manufacturers don't generally run their knives at 60+ HRc as opposed to the 55-57 HRc common amongst German and French kitchen knife manufactueres?
Are you also going to pretend not to be aware that Japanese kitchen knife manufacturers also typically use thinner blade geometries than German kitchen knife makers?
These are hardly controversial points.
>>7169485
The chef knives are usually thinner than jerry battle axes but hardly different from french chef knives
If you try to hack through a femur with a sabatier you'll need to redo the edge same as a weeb sword
As far as I'm concerned abuse is abuse, rolling or chipping are going to require a rough stone and some metal grinding one way or the other. Just because the damage looks different under a magnifying glass doesn't change much
>>7169554
Do you have some sort of autism spectrum disorder that prevents you from comprehending the word cleaver? CLEAVER. C L E A V E R. How many heavy German style cleavers do they make in Japan?! Do you think a CLEAVER works better at ~55 HRc or ~62 HRc?!
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>>7169554
japanese gyutos are copies of French knives. They are harder typically but that is not necessarily an asset in the kitchen. It's only helpful if your cooking with Japanese technique and Japanese food. The French shape is superior for precisiona nd the German one is better for chopping up a ton of shit quickly. That's why the standard Victo chef's knife is a combination of the two.
the hardness argument is really a stupid one over all.
>>7169594
It doesn't matter that much. high RC might get you some edge retention, like, 25-30% more, but the cleaver's edge is obtuse enough to make chipping on a bone of snapping the thing pretty low risk unless you're Mungo
56RC cleaver is a 10 minute resharpen, 62 is a 45 minute resharpen. the kind of steel is more important as steels' internal structure respond wildly differently at different RCs
>>7169611
>45 minute resharpen
I hope this doesn't trigger captain sensitive up there, but may I suggest you consider alternatives to a Belgian couticle to reprofile your abused cleaver? A 500 grit anything would be pretty effective. Diamond plates are gr8 if this is a regular occurrence.
>>7169611
>the hardness argument is really a stupid one over all.
Yes, that's why knives expected to chop through hard materials are typically run at 60+ HRc, and why lots of companies make heavy cleavers at high-hardness. Oh wait, that would be retarded.
>56RC cleaver is a 10 minute resharpen, 62 is a 45 minute resharpen
A 45 minute time to re-sharpen implies gross edge damage.
>>7169011
BASED
>>7169761
knife hardness is about wear, not impact resistance in cooking. there's nothing we eat even remotely hard enough to dent 56RC steel. maybe its an asset for other reason but as far as I'm concerned its habitg(Japanese make harder knives) and marketing.
>>7169761
>>7169638
Im talking about a full regrind by hand. steel hardness is not linear.
personally I'd use a belt sander and do it the easy way but I know you kitchen ninjas sperg out over handsharpening
>>7169793
>knife hardness is about wear, not impact resistance in cooking
>there's nothing we eat even remotely hard enough to dent 56RC steel
Please stop talking about knives on the internet or even attempting to participate in online discussions until you:
A) Develop a sufficient level of reading comprehension to realize I was specifically asked about what kind of knife would it be okay to use to CLEAVE THROUGH BONE.
B) Lean enough about metallurgy to understand that knife hardness is positively correlated with wear resistance but INVERSELY correlated with toughness.
C) Understand that the greater a blade's toughness, the greater the likelihood the edge will be damaged by rolling rather than chipping in hard contacts (SUCH AS CLEAVING BONE WHICH I WAS SPECIFICALLY ASKED ABOUT).
D) Understand that edge rolls only need to be sharpened out, while fixing large scale chips visible with the naked eye involves a goddamn re-grind, which you admitted yourself! Do you think anyone sane would rather want to fix gross edge damage vs. sharpening out a rolled edge?!
>>7163284
> Go to le cutco meme job
> Buy display knives: god-tier knives for $75
> Send in fake "lol I did a presentation, they didn't buy" with my friends' contact info
> Do this enough to pay for the knives
> Never talk to them again
Free knives.
>>7169838
>confirmed for having never butchered an animal
any bone to big to chop with a cleaver you use a saw. nobody's chopping up long bones and skulls with a neat cleaver, buddy.
>MEAT cleaver.
>M E A T
>>7169915
>any bone to big to chop with a cleaver you use a saw
At what point in this thread did anyone mention bones too big to chop with a cleaver?!
The question was about what type of knife could be used to cleave bones since bone contacts should be avoided with Japanese kitchen knives.
A German style meat cleaver is the answer to that question. The geometry, toughness, and ease of fixing edge-rolls on a German style meat cleaver is the explanation for why a German style meat cleaver can be used on things like chicken bones that should be avoided with thinner, harder knives.
At no point did anyone ever suggest attempting to chop through a cow's femur you retarded short-bus autism spectrum disorder mongoloid mother fucker.
Jesus H jumping Mary Christ on a pogo stick.
>>7170015
Lol
The other guy is right though, do you honestly believe Germany is the only country on earth where they've had to cut bones larger than an anchovy spine but smaller than a cow femur?
There are tools for everything, just because you're ignorant of how french or japanese or chinese knife makers handle this doesn't make your opinion correct in any way.
And get a bone saw for those femurs.
>>7170141
Please articulate how anyone who has the slightest idea of what they are talking about could argue that a deba is even close to as good a choice for cleaving chicken bones as a Western heavy cleaver?
You'll have to account for blade geometry, steel choice, toughness vs hardness, typical failure mode, and ease of sharpening in your explanation.
Pro-tip: You might want to investigate how chopping knives are made, and what properties that share with Western heavy cleaver vs. Japanese style kitchen knives.
>Why is Theirs Issard so based?
Mein negro.....
It is truly the based home of glorious steel knives, forever and ever amen.
>>7163284
Has anyone heard of Ohishi, Haruyuki, Tamahagane or Kaneshige? How are their blades, and are they worth spending on over a Tojiro DP or is a Tojiro DP good enough? I'm specifically looking for a santoku or a nakiri.
>>7170319
>the western deba and the delicate yanagi are the only knives that exist outside of krautland
Whitebread have you never even gone out for dim sum? You know how many billions of razor sharp shattered bone fragments the ching-chongs love to slash up the inside of their mouths with? How do you think that happened, was it katsuramuki?
It astounds me that some people can be so ignorant about food, but then, /ck/ so hey...
>>7170591
>not providing a single shred of evidence
I've forgotten more about knives and metallurgy than you will ever know. Put up or shut up, sperglord. What kind of Japanese-style kitchen knife is better suited to cleaving chicken bones than a heavy Western cleaver?
Why is it better or even comparable? Please, enlighten me.
>>7170619
>I'm completely ignorant so it doesn't exist
>he thinks china is still part of the empire of japan
I'm sure your mother is proud of her son who memorizes fantasy renfaire brochures about techno-wootz, but it's abundantly clear that you're in over your head on this one. Now scurry on back to the five guys thread, people who actually cook want to talk.
>>7170628
Yes, pleas continue to enlighten me with what I don't know about knives.
>>7170628
As I said, please, continue to educate me out of my ignorance.
>>7170628
>>7170658
Is that supposed to be impressive?
Buy a real kitchen knife and stop jerking of to your little pocket knives.
>>7170628
>>7170658
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4IIYG62wxg
>>7170628
>>7170694
Actually, putting the shitposting on hold for a moment, the trick to that demonstration is using the stiction from the cut bottom of the tomato to get it to not slide against the cutting board and a very coarse edge on the gyuto which excels in slicing cuts as opposed to push cutting, which requires a much higher grit finish to achieve.
>>7170655
>posting a folding knife in a thread about food
WTF
This board has reached a new low
>>7170681
Holy shit, that forearm. How fat is he?
>>7170658
What the fuck is this shit, why are you posting shitty pocket knives in a thread about kitchen knives/tools.
>>7170731
About what I expected from a greasy neckbeard who thinks his spyderco in a cooking knife thread is proof that he "knows knives"
took a picture of my heavy cleaver with a #2 pencil for scale. Now its up to you fags to guess which poster I am ITT
>kek
>DABCO HAND MADE No 111 fyi
>>7170727
>>7170731
>>7170734
>>7170658
>push cutting
wa
la
>>7170655
>Spyderco
Top lel, old man. well played, quality b8
>>7170768
>>7170775
>>7170768
>>7170700
>>7170681
>>7170665
>>7170658
>>7170655
>>7170781
the damage control is real
>>7164087
I love how retards on /ck/ love to pretend that only the finest katanas in japan are capable of brunoise.
You're not really helping your case here, pocket knife guy. The only thing that could make this look worse for you is if you post your CRKT hissatsu stabbed through a bottle of mountain dew.
>>7170826
Who made this?
How long is this damage control going to continue? I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with the fat neckbeard comments, but this isn't healthy.
>>7170936
Damage control implies I'm avoiding the topic. I'm happy to continue posting sourced articles on this topic until this thread hits the bump limit.
I haven't even started posting sourced articles on metallurgy yet.
>>7170936
Is the fat mirror polish pushcut knife guy the one spam copypasting?
>>7170966
Obviously
>>7170952
Instead of spamming stuff you copied off the internet, why not post what you cook with? Don't you even have cooking knives?
This is beyond cringe, I genuinely am feeling bad for you right now.
>>7170986
He probably doesn't even know what a cooking knife is, which is why he is copypasting definitions.
One day this person will learn, but until then, let the walls of text continue.
>>7168915
Weaboo implies a degree of ignorance, which doesn't apply to him at this point, but yeah, I'd like to see more good smiths who specialize in kitchen cutlery and are not obsessed with Japanese knives.
>>7170986
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/rikoaosu21gy.html
Kohetsu 210mm Gyuto in Aogami Super, but there is no point in posting a picture of a lazer gyuto since the geometry dictates that the edge-bevel will be too narrow to even see the finish of with the naked eye.
I also freehand sharpen all my knives and have a full line-up of waterstones including 240x, 1000x, 3000x, 6000x, 10000x, and 13000x.
Literally not a single one of you can post a single fucking example of a non-western knife superior to a meat cleaver for cleaving chicken bones, nor argue the metallurgical points of why a western style cleaver is obviously superior for the job.
None of you can demonstrate a single iota of knife knowledge, sharpening skill, or familiarity with metallurgical principles or their influence on knife properties and I am done trying to help people in this shithole.
>>7170995
Japanese-style knives are better for light-duty kitchen work because they are typically both run significantly harder and thinner than western style knives.
The thinner geometry increases their cutting ability (i.e. reduces the force required to make cuts, regardless of the sharpness of the actual apex) and the reduced force required to make cuts, combined with the greater strength achieved through higher hardness both work to significantly increase the edge-retention compared to most Western production kitchen knives.
It isn't a matter of weaboo, as many Western custom makers now make chefs knifes in French patterns run at similarly high hardness and with similarly thin grinds, but with production knives the old traditions mostly remain.
>>7171007
Can't you even manage a photo of your cooking knives? Assuming they exist? Stock photos and copy pasted spam from google are not interesting, and flooding is a rule violation.
>>7171020
Oh for fucks sake, if you really want a pointless picture of my gyuto I'll take one tomorrow, I don't see the purpose as a laser gyuto geometry means you won't be able to tell from a picture what grit the edge-bevel is even finished at.
My pocket knives count as on-topic because I use them as paring knives/petty knives anyway, and I think out the primary grinds on them until they are about as thin behind the edge as a paring knife.
>>7171024
Well at the rate you are going, this thread could hit 300 replies by the time you get to the photo.
>>7171007
>plastic handle
Into the trash it goes!
>>7171024
You don't cook. It's fine. Food and cooking means your fast food is allowed. Back to your five guys thread, bye.
>>7171019
Knives develop over time. Japanese kitchen cutlery wasn't always as it is. It is rare for western cooks to go for fully traditional Japanese knives.
Many good smiths are still stuck on the Japanese style western knives because that's where the market is.
Besides, there are a lot of gyutos that have heft, from custom makers and mass producers, and many of the popular brands in both western and Japanese knives are fairly close in HRC. My Hiromoto, for example, is marginally lighter than my Wusthof classic, and that is mainly due to a more pronounced heel to tip taper and the bolster, not so much the spine to edge taper on the Wusthof.
I completely disagree with
>greater strength achieved through higher hardness
Higher hardness makes the steel more brittle and more prone to chipping, but can yield better edge retention in combination with steel formula and heat treatment methods, which can also serve mitigate that brittleness to some extent. There are a lot of factors working together which gives an edge the qualities it has. Hardness is only one aspect of that, and "strength" is not a word I would use to describe the primary goal of hardness.
Does ulu guy still post here?
>>7171090
>Whustof and Hiomoto
>similar weight
Sorry, you are wrong. The 8" Whustof Classic chef's knife is 240 grams vs. 180 for the 8.2" Hiromoto AS gyuto.
>Fairly close in HRc
Sorry, you are wrong. The Whustof Classic line is made of X50crmov15 steel at ~58 HRc vs a production spec of 60-62 HRc for the Aogami Super (which I'd typically run on the high side).
Also, since you don't know anything about metallurgy you wouldn't know that the stainless steels typically used by Western knife makers simply cannot be reliably heat treated above ~58 HRc in a production environment, whereas the carbon steels and VG-10 typically used by Japanese manufacturers can easily be heat treated to ~62 HRc in a production environment.
>strength
Sorry, you don't understand that "strength" had a precise meaning in materials properties:
"In materials science, the strength of a material is its ability to withstand an applied load without failure or plastic deformation."
Specifically, this means that in martensitic steels, the propensity of the edge to fail through plastic deformation decreases as the hardness increases, while the wear resistance also increases as the hardness increases. Conversely, the toughness (aka ductility) of a martensitic steel decreases as hardness increases.
>increasing convergence of kitchen cutlery design
Obviously I was speaking about the industry in general terms and was not accounting for every outlier case of a heavy and tall gyuto or a laser less tall chef's knife.
>>7171051
Try reading the spec. The handle is wood, cheap shitty wood, but wood.
I don't care because the Kohetsu AS line is the best deal on an Aogami Super laser blade geometry gyuto on the market. I expected some compromises.
>>7171024
Here: In potato quality because the edge bevel isn't wide enough to show off a freehand 13,000 grit edge anyway.
>>7172230
>still raging after 12 hours
Good job on the one non-shitpost just now though, at least the mods helped you out by improving your shitpost to post ratio.
>>7172302
Got any counter evidence against any of my points? Which i backed up with multiple sources? Got any contrary sources? No? Didn't think so.
Come back when you do.
>>7172359
They're not your points, they're someone else's points. Anyone can google stuff, even those who don't cook yet still think of themselves as having valid opinions.
i use a cheap chinese cleaver i picked up at an asian market for like 10 bucks for most of my work and i have a shitty german french knife for any protein work. if i really need precision i have a razor sharp paring knife. those are my main bitches and i have a few others that i really only use for certain situations like fileting fish or cleaning meat
>>7172467
>pretending I didn't argue the points originally and then afterwards add many sources that say the same thing
>still not having any counter-arguments or sources
Guess that's a no then. Also the notion that cooks would intrinsically know anything about knife design, construction, and metallurgy is hilarious.
>>7169793
>belt sander
God fucking damnit, not this guy again. Do you post in every knife thread in /ck/?
>>7172501
In case you're lost, this is /ck/ not /k/. Your third-party regurgitated opinions on something you have no personal interest in, or experience doing, are of no value. Go back to jacking off over your spyderco stabbing fantasies, this is off topic shitposting, not food and cooking.
>>7170467
No one?
>>7172557
>STILL not making any counter arguments or presenting any evidence whatsoever.
Be quiet. You literally know so little about knives and metallurgy you cannot even have an argument about them so you are forced to desperately try to bait.
Expecting some ex-convict high-school dropout to know anything about knives because he cooks for a living is like expecting everyone with a driver's license to both be a mechanic and understand automobile design.
>>7172613
Bad guess about my career or background, but since you consider yourself an expert, what are your credentials besides spending all your waking hours reading other people's opinions on knife websites? Do you stab a lot of phone books in your ample free time? Why do you hate cooking and what makes you think you have anything to contribute on this board?
>>7172654
My credentials? I know a lot about knife design, metallurgy, and sharpening and I actually use and sharpen my knives.
If you think there is anything inherently different about kitchen knives vs. outdoor vs. folding besides blade geometry and potentially steel choice, you are sadly mistaken.
Knives are ultimately a matter of geometry, steel choice, heat treatment, blade grind, sharpening angle, and grit finish. Each of these aspects can and should be tailored to the specific scope of work the knife in question is intended for.
And if you think they know anything about knives on /k/, you are sadly quite mistaken. They are even more ignorant over there than here, because most of them neither use their knives nor know how to sharpen them.
>>7172672
So you're an expert because of how much time you spend on the internet. Got it.
What's it like having such an intimidating intellect? Do sheeple often get mad at you for using big words like "metallurgical"?
>>7172687
You are still desperately running away from the substance of the argument because you can't even fake the subject well enough to not make a fool of yourself.
Please name for me the knife design better suited for cleaving through chicken bones than a Western heavy cleaver? Please specify the name and type of Asian knife suitable for the same scope of work as a Western heavy cleaver? What is it called? Link to an available model.
Please explain why any knife with a thinner geometry and higher hardness would be a better choice for a scope of work that involves hard contacts (like cleaving chicken bones).
Please explain why thinner, harder knives are not more prone to edge failure by chipping rather than rolling.
Please explain why large chips in an edge are easier to repair than a rolled edge.
Please explain why the analogy between chopping knives and skinning/food prep knives in terms of geometries, steel choice, and hardness does not hold for heavy cleavers vs other kitchen knives.
And finally, please provide sources for those arguments.
>>7172147
>Sorry you are wrong
No, I am not, and you have take a terrible attitude in talking about things as though you have some in depth understanding, when you clearly do not.
My 9 inch (really about 9.5 inches) Wusthof classic is 10 ounces.
My 240 MM Hiromoto is 9.3 ounces.
That is a marginal difference in weight for a 9 inch + blade, especially since, as I said, the difference comes mostly from a thicker heel and bolster, while the rest of the blade geometry is very similar.
I did not say the the HRC on those two knives is the same, and, in fact, the HRC on the Hiromoto typically runs in the 63-64 range, + or - 1, and my Wusthof is probably closer to 56 because it was made in the early-mid 80s. There is a tendency for all makers to increase the hardness due to people finally realizing that honing rods have limitations and sharpening on stones shouldn't be avoided all together. Cooks have grown tired of uneven edges.
>strength
Again, hardness does not contribute to your definition, which I agree with. Hardness alone would determine whether or not the steel will bend more if softer or break/chip easier if harder. Other attributes coming from tempering methods and steel formula will affect on that attribute.
>increasing convergence
Lasers and thinner gyutos in general are a recent emergence. Look at the early popular gyutos, both by individual makers and mass producers. MACs, Shun, Bu-Rei-Zen, were made thicker than they are now. Smiths like Watanabe still prefer to make thicker gyutos as utilitarian blades by default.
>>7172709
>No, I am not, and you have take a terrible attitude in talking about things as though you have some in depth understanding, when you clearly do not.
Actually, the reverse is true, and I have run out of patience for ignorant know nothings chirping when they should be listening instead.
>My 9 inch (really about 9.5 inches) Wusthof classic is 10 ounces.
Picture with a tape measure of your 9.5" 9" Western she's knife please.
>My 240 MM Hiromoto is 9.3 ounces.
Link to any Hiromoto 240mm gyuto ever produced weighing 26.3g? Every link shows ~8.2oz
>I did not say the the HRC on those two knives is the same, and, in fact, the HRC on the Hiromoto typically runs in the 63-64 range, + or - 1, and my Wusthof is probably closer to 56 because it was made in the early-mid 80s.
Oh, you mean the Japanese produced knife is harder? What a shock! It is almost as if that was exactly what I said!
>>strength
>Again, hardness does not contribute to your definition, which I agree with. Hardness alone would determine whether or not the steel will bend more if softer or break/chip easier if harder.
So, let me get this straight: Hardness affects whether the steel will bend more if softer, but that has no effect on its resistance to plastic deformation under load. You are aware that plastic deformation means bending yes?
>>7172712
Sorry, the thread got attacked by a neckbeard.
I don't know what your context is, but some of those are brands just as diverse as Tojiro so comparing to one line (DP) makes no sense.
That said, for a nakiri it's not going to matter so much, compared to say a chef knife where there are so many variations in profile. You could just pick one based on how you like the looks.
>>7172712
I'm working off the cuff here, doing some Google-fu, but at least I can give you some help I hope.
>Ohishi
I see no substantive advantage over Tojrio DP knives here. Both are VG-10, so unless you have a strong ergonomic or aesthetic preference, I wouldn't bother.
>Haruyuki
These are made out of SRS-15, a Japanese powder metallurgy high speed stainless steel. It will typically be run at higher hardness than VG-10 and will be a challenge to sharpen unless you have some serious waterstones (e.g. Naniwa Professional line, Shapton Pro or Glass, Sigma Power Select-II). On the other hand, the edge retention will be better than VG-10.
>Tamahagane
Any Japanese brand that misuses the word "tamahagane" to refer to VG-5 steel should not be trusted. Avoid.
>Kaneshige
There is very little info about them in the West as they mostly sell their higher end Konosuke sub-brand in North America. Nice knives, but a totally different price bracket than what you are looking at.
Hope that helps!
>>7172861
Lol, sperg some about "Damascus", please now thanks in advance. The sheeple must understand that Angel Sword(TM) has the only known true Damascus technique and chipotle is not authentic.
>>7172870
Look at what pathetic attempts at trolling you've been reduced to. Just stop. This is an anonymous board, you don't have to desperately keep trying to save face. No one but you will know how badly you got schooled.
>>7172899
Yeah, I got schooled in tactical knife shitposting and google copypasting.
Why are you even here?
>>7172902
Shhhh. If you would have been capable of arguing a single substantive point all thread, you would have. I know your embarrassed about not actually knowing anything about knives, but it's ok. It's over now :^)
>>7164841
i'd like to know too. i'm a noob, and i'm considering buying pic related.
>>7172870
You got fucking wrecked lmao
>>7173126
>>>7172942 (You)
>>>7173094
>Samefat as fuck
Sadly, no, it is quite apparent to everyone that you are just embarassing yourself at this point :^)
Pic related.
>>implying anyone buying a $150 knife expects actual tamahagane or even knows what that is
Oh, you looked up what "tamahagane" means. Well done!
Now tell me why you should trust a kitchen knife maker who calls a line of knives made out of VG-5 that? Do you really think it is a good idea to trust a line of knives named with a clear intent to deceive and made out of a strictly inferior cutlery steel to VG-10? Instead of just buying Tojiro DP if you want value from a reputable maker?
>>7173167
No one who isn't as mentally crippled as you would assume a cheap mass produced knife is made of tamahagane, any more than they'd assume a "Damascus" knife is made of actual Damascus steel.
Try to accept that intelligent people don't accept marketing at face value. You're getting mad over this because your knowledge of knives comes from wikepedia and forums, rather than personal experience.
Why do you hate cooking?
>>7173189
Do you have an actual argument in favour of the brand with the misrepresentative name and strictly inferior cutlery steel choice over Tojiro DP?
"I don't like you and you utterly crushed my will to live" is, sadly for you, not an argument.
>>7173214
Deceptive implies an intent to deceive. If you got confused because you can't make the kind of common sense inferences that adults make every day, that's not a reflection on the brand. It's a reflection on you.
Whether it's the best product for the price is an entirely different issue.
Why do you hate cooking?
>>7173126
>>7173167
Shut up. Christ.
>>7173231
Why? I cook. I like to talk about cooking. You stab phone books. You like to talk about stabbing phone books.
You don't even belong here, why do you hate cooking?
>>7173229
Gee, I wonder why I might consider a line of knives made by Yoshida Metal Industries under a pretend family brand with a deceptive name being pawned off on ignorant Western knife buyers to be a bad idea.
(Hint: Go look them up.}
>>7173239
No problem man, feel free to ask any other questions you may have, I'll do my best to help you out in between shitposting at that buthurt cook.
>>7173255
Not the guy you were replying to. Yoshida manufactures Global branded knives. I don't see how that is relevant to what the he is saying.
>>7173255
I wasn't suggesting anyone buy it, I was just giving you well deserved shit for being a drooling spastic assburgers case about "tamahagane"
Maybe, since you don't cook, you could consider telling us the best brand to stab phone books with.
>>7173256
I'm looking at all these blades and I'm reading that in many cases various brands are just using OEM blades with their labels. Would you know any brands like that to definitively avoid?
Also, will something like a chef's choice diamond grit sharpener be bad for VG10 or SRS15 blades?
>>7173265
He's going to tell you they're a fraudulent brand for pushing Damascus steel on the sheeple.
In reality, shun is a good knife. Not the best bang for buck, but nothing wrong with them. You'll see a lot of idiots complaining about chipping, because they're used to being able to abuse knives, but if you take care of your shit it's not a problem.
>>7173236
I posted once...once about Aura knives and owning them, no idea why you're confusing me with another poster.
>>7173257
It is relevant because:
1) If Yoshida wanted to stand behind that line of knives they would be listed on the Yoshida website (they aren't)
2) The advertising copy for the knives would not pretend some family makes them rather than Yoshida (it does).
3) There would not be a grand total of zero reviews of that line of knives on actual kitchen knife forums online where people obsess about Japanese kitchen knives (there isn't).
4) The only actual review online of them wouldn't be from a suspicious blog (it is).
Conclusion: Likely outsourced mushroom brand that should be avoided.
>>7173265
Shun's are quite a bit overpriced, aren't typically as thin as Japanese kitchen knives, and aren't run as hard as most Japanese kitchen knives. I can't really think of any reason to go with Shun over the alternatives, unless you really want a Western style knife, but in VG-10 instead of the crap Whustof and Heinkels use.
>>7173281
Do you mean the pull-through sharpener? Please do not use those types of sharpeners, especially not on Japanese knives.
Pull-through sharpeners will damage the hell out of the edge of your knives. You should learn to freehand sharpen on waterstones if you want to buy Japanese kitchen knives.
Pic related is what ends up happening with pull through sharpeners.
>>7173289
thanks.
>I can't really think of any reason to go with Shun over the alternatives, unless you really want a Western style knife, but in VG-10 instead of the crap Whustof and Heinkels use.
like i said, i'm a noob, and i don't really know the difference between western style and whatever other styles there are, but i was originally planning to buy a wusthof.
>>7172861
>>Tamahagane
>Any Japanese brand that misuses the word "tamahagane" to refer to VG-5 steel should not be trusted. Avoid.
For a little more context
>and to keep this lulzy shit going haha
tamagahane refers to the historical process of making decent steel Japan which was very difficult and therefore became famous. One reason Japabese swords acquired this legendary status is because decent steel was incredibly expensive and rare. They might as well have been magical compared to the shit everyone else had to use.
Anyone using the term today is strictly engaged in marketing and actual tamahagane is basically dogshit next to many many other modern steels, just as medieval European steel would be.
Anyone buying a "tamahagane" knife gets exactly what they deserve
>>7172861
>These are made out of SRS-15, a Japanese powder metallurgy high speed stainless steel. It will typically be run at higher hardness than VG-10 and will be a challenge to sharpen
not with a belt sander and the right belts. I'd suggest practicing on cheap knives first tho
>>7173289
I know a kid who destroyed his shun, what you see is what you get with mass produced. Some of them are ok, some of them are inherently flawed in their composition.
I've used a lot of different brands, and yes they are ok. No they are not the best for the price. I'd buy a togiharu before a shun any fucking day.
>>7173265
Shun has been around longer than memes, but they are pushed onto people who don't know how to find cheaper alternatives.
>>7173399
To try and keep it simple:
Japanese style kitchen knives are usually thinner and harder than their Western style equivalents, as well as usually being made of steel with a finer grain structure that performs better with more polished apex finishes than Western kitchen knives typically do.
The thinner geometry reduces the amount of force you have to use to make each cut, which increases edge retention. The higher hardness they are typically run at also increases edge retention.
This means Japanese style kitchen knives will typically stay sharper longer than Western style knives at any given finish.
The downside to this increased cutting ability (reduced force to make cuts) and edge retention is that Japanese style kitchen knives are more likely to chip at the edge of they are abused, and chipping is more of a pain to repair than if the edge rolls over, which is more likely with the usually softer steel of Western style knives.
>>7173420
Now, normally I've previously sperged out at you for that advice, but SRS15 is actually a decent candidate for power sharpening since its a high speed steel and therefore likely to be significantly more resistant to edge burning than most steels.
Still, I'm not sure that learning to use a belt grinder is much easier than learning to use Sigma Power Select-II waterstones to be honest family.
>>7173458
Well, anything under $500 or so *will* be mass produced, and a lot of the high priced artisan made stuff from Japan is going to be honyaki anyway, which makes even the most finicky mass made knife look like a beater from krautland.
There is nothing inherently wrong with mass produced knives, and if anything they're better for a normal cook, on average.
>>7173404
Nobody uses tamahagane for kitchen knives other than a few extremely niche makers charging insane prices for one-offs. It's like buying a meteorite knife, you do it because it's cool, not for performance. It shouldn't even cross your mind that a knife branded as "tamahagane" is made of real tamahagane, this is autism of the highest level.
>>7173465
This isn't entirely wrong, but there are a lot of misconceptions about the chipping "problem", which is presented as though it was fundamentally worse than edge rolling. All edges will fail, chipping and rolling describe what the failure looks like. When people describe steeling as though it was "repairing the edge" it's a little bit misleading: the edge has already failed at this point, you're just pushing it back into roughly the right shape so it will cut some, before it flops back out of shape.
Also, when people talk about chipping, it's easy to misconstrue this as meaning a knife is going to have this visibly jagged edge like a cartoon battle axe. That doesn't happen from using a chef knife for cutting food. It happens from abuse (using the knife as a can opener and so on), or from going crazy with edge reprofiling and trying to turn a gyuto into a yanagi. Sometimes you hear people say "microchipping" which is probably a better way of describing what happens with a hard chef knife in normal use. It would look jagged under magnification, but unless you know certain tricks (using light sources and so on), the chipping wouldn't be obvious to the naked eye.
A person who is trying to decide on a knife shouldn't get too hung up on failure modes. Even to steel a softer knife, you can't be completely clueless, otherwise you could just make the problem worse. The only thing that would really set the decision is if you're inclined to abuse the living daylights out of the knife, in that case yeah a softer steel could be a good compromise, but I don't think anyone thinking about it on this level is likely to do that.
>>7173928
Really solid advice.
I tried to be clear on chipping as a failure mode being an issue resulting from *abuse* rather than normal use, but I guess I should have clarified that more.
I would only really want a knife with a macro edge failure mode of rolling if I was planning to make hard contacts with it, in all other cases I prefer high hardness and thin geometries.
>>7174031
I enjoy the fact that my softer blades are easier to sharpen. Call me crazy, but I still like the old school knives made to be maintained almost exclusively on steels, but not because of that. They're just faster to sharpen on stones as well. If I was going for the cheapest decent knife I could get, I'd get one of the relatively soft carbon steel blades out there, but I think most people want a decent amount of corrosion resistance and edge retention and only one main blade. I don't understand that mindset at all, but it seems to be the prevailing one.
>>7169049
kek
>>7174107
Oh, I think that is a totally sensible choice for someone who actually knows how to take advantage of their properties and isn't interested in spending a lot of time on stones.
Since I already have a full set of Sigma Power Select II stones, which are basically pure silicon carbide abrasive with virtually no binder, I don't mind higher hardness and wear resistance as long as the steel retains good apex stability. On these stones the difference in sharpening time between VG-10 and ZDP-189 is maybe 10-20% tops.
>>7173476
I know. I was hoping you'd take the bait . we can disagree on belt sanding any day but I totally respect your knowledge . To me it's preference and modernity vs learning a skill for skills' sake.
>>7174107
This is a major reason that the Fremch and German knives are made softer, they are designed for use in a brigade kitchen, which is a fine food factory, with lots of yelling and fire and smashing up stuff, and being able to get your knives back to trim in a few seconds instead of polishing once at the end of the day is more prized. It's more efficient for that style of cooking vs the japanese inn kitchen style, which does not teach you that your knife is an all purpose tool.
>>7174201
>steel retains good apex stability
this has as much to do with the edge shape as the steel. learn a proper Moran edge and almost any forged steel knife can have as good of an edge holding quality as you could wish for
Why is this thread so civil now? Did the spyderco guy get banned?
Are Chinese cleavers worth it? I'm looking for a do all knife, and they seem like the way to go.
>>7173367
Should I just get 3 victorinox blades and call it a day?
>>7174465
I should add that apart from maintenance, its the millions of JP "brands" floating around that I have no fucking clue about and I don't want to get ripped off.
>>7172746
>I can look things up online and so I will argue about them with someone who actually owns one.
Nah, you're the one with the shit attitude and obvious lack of understanding. You keep insisting that I said things which I did not, which shows that you can't see past your own argumentative attitude. You just want to make points instead of bothering to figure out what was said first. And at this point, I don't even care if some other ignorant douche got you riled up. It's obvious that you can't handle your own shit.
On the subject of strength, you completely ignore the prime definition, which is what I was getting at. THE PRIMARY GOAL
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/difference-beteween-strength-hardness-and-toughness.588373/
Instead of trying to point this out to you further, I will just suggest that you read through the above discussion between people who know how to not be arrogant assholes, ditching consideration for the sake of premature argumentative points. Yet another knife thread gone to pure autism.
>>7174418
It really depends on what kind of knife you're used to work with
I find it really annoying to relearn how to cut shit when switching Chinese cleaver to the smaller chefs knives
I personally like it because it has the added benefit of being able to scoop chopped shit into something
>>7175031
The scoop is really one of the things I like. And when I'm using a normal chefs knife it seems, I don't know, too small? I can't describe it.
>>7174323
No, I did not.
>>7173338
>>7173353
>>7173367
>>7173465
>>7173476
>>7174031
>>7174201
Are all me. I like being civil, and I like being helpful, however, most online knife communities are cancerous dens of half truths mixed with lies because everyone is forced to be too polite to shout down the bad information, so the ignorant and malicious take over under the cover of being "nice."
>>7175156
Yeah its way too small to scoop a decent amount of stuff, also I personally don't like how close my chopping hands have to come down onto the chopping board
but its really a preference thing
Try holding a chinese chefs knife before you buy one or get a cheapo one for a test run
>>7175021
Well I'll be damned, that is a 9.3oz Hiromoto gyuto. That has to be one of the heaviest 240mm gyutos I've ever seen, since they are usually in the 8oz range.
Can I also get the pictures of both with the tape measure?
Considering you were right about the weight of the Hiromoto, I'm now half inclined to believe you have a 9.5" 9-inch Whustof.
>Strength
That discussion does not in any way contradict what I was saying.
Hardness is a materials resistance to deformation from compression or abrassion, but when I mentioned strength I was referring to a knife's ability to resist edge failure through rolling or chipping, which is specifically covered under the term strength and not hardness because the applied load inducing the stress is neither compressive nor abrasive.
Increasing the hardness of a martensitic steel will increase that steel's resistance to plastic deformation (rolling) up to a point, and past that point will begin to increase that steel's tendency to fail (chip) rather than deform (roll), thus increases hardness below the point you begin to make a steel excessively brittle will directly increase its strength.
>Argumentative
Yes, but as I said above, I think most online knife communities are cancerous places full of people who are either ignorant or malicious and who overrun the conversation while operating under the cover of politeness and in-group dynamics to drown out the people who know what they are talking about.
Anonymity and the ability to shout down bad ideas are my favorite thing about 4chan, and, to be honest, if you post on a Malaysian claymation post-it note board you really should be prepared for at least some something and shitposting.
>>7174467
Don't worry about the brands, there are enough knowledgeable people around to direct you to some good ones. The more central issue should be your willingness to learn to use waterstones.
Basically, if you don't want to learn to sharpen, then just get the cheapest knives you can find because a pull through sharpener will destroy them anyway.
If you do want to learn, then I would still recommend the Tojiro DP as they are probably the best value out there, but you will need a 1,000/6,000 type combo stone and have to practice.
>>7174418
If you only want one knife, Chinese medium cleaver is a damned fine choice
>I have two
>I know I said one knife
It's an exceelent chioce, you will have to learn it a bit if you're used to chef's knives but yes, it's fantastic
>>7175021
that thing is a battle axe for a japanese knife. Looks like a Global or a Wusthoff.
wtf did you find that pig? and what's with that garbage hamon, is that real honyaki or is it san mai with a weirdass grinding line? post more pics, that is a real oddity
>>7175328
Okay, I give you Canadian $250. Build me a set, because my brain is going to melt.
I also have a bamboo cutting board. I have to change that too. So maybe 300 all inclusive (stones, board etc etc)?
what can these knives do that the $20 walmart ones can't?
>>7164087
you dress like that in real life?
>>7175559
retain their edge much longer between sharpenings
>>7175542
For that budget I would get the following (note the knives and stone are such good deals they are out of stock at the moment, but I would wait for them to get back in stock):
Tojiro DP 210mm gyuto and 80mm paring combo for $80 USD:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071,55067
Immanishi 1k/6k combo stone for $55 USD
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/imtwosi1kst.html
Lee Valley Trying Stone: $38.50 CAD
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ckcodipl40.html
Waterstone holder: $21 CAD
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=54849&cat=1,43072,67175,67176&ap=1
Total: $135 USD + $59.50 CAD should just sneak in u der budget once you pay for shipping from CKTG.
Got myself one of these. It's all I use now, I even got another one that I take to work.
>>7175582
I would prefer a blade with a flat profile for my primary knife. I'm using a chef's knife currently and I can't cut flat with it.
>>7175590
>I can't cut flat with it.
What?
>>7175590
Oh shit, that's right, I totally forgot you were looking for a nakiri or similar. Sorry, I forgot. How about substituting a nakiri and 90mm paring for the combo above:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todpna16.html
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/todppakn90.html
You can get both for $88 USD
My knifes is swedish, grandpa makes them, he really knows his shit and i only need to pay for steel. I usually go for swedish steel
>>7175616
You should have little trouble finding Canadian sources for the Tojiro DP models I posted, but that Immanishi 1k/6k combo stone is a CKTG exclusive, that was the entire reason I was referring to CKTG actually.
That diamond combo stone is good because you can use the 400 side for flattening 1k+ waterstones and for sharpening more heavily blunted blades and minor edge-bevel reprofiling, and its cheaper than a 400 grit DMT or Atoma plate, but a cheap trueing stone from Lee Valley will work for 1k+ stones so I wouldn't bother if I was pinching pennies.
>>7175639
Sweeden produces some of the best cutlery steels around in the form of AEB-L/13c26 which is great at high hardness
>>7175566
That assumes you're willing to take care of your shit
Most '''''people''''' who shop at walmart are not.
>>7175321
>>7175285
>>7175533
There is a difference between asking questions, clarifying, and being an argumentative fuck with a shitty attitude. I could expand on what I have been saying, but the replies I've had in this thread are one idiocy after another out to win over a point at the cost of anything to do with reality. If people weren't so set on being obstinate juveniles, they might learn something.
>>7175616
SO basically unless i colossally fuck up my knife, a 1k sharpening followed by a 6k sharpening will be just fine, correct?
>>7175700
I just want more pics of your knife, never seen one like it.
that thing is the Cunt Destroyer of Japanese cooking knives
>>7175653
How is this stone?
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0000DD2C9/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=
Or this
http://www.amazon.ca/King-47506-Combination-Waterstone-japan/dp/B001DT1X9O/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1450285906&sr=1-1&keywords=1000%2F6000
>>7175714
>>7175724
Yes, 1k followed by 6k should be fine for a nakiri and parinf knife as long as you sharpen regularly and are dealing with VG-10 or pure carbon steels.
Basically, because the knives are pretty thin and shouldn't be used in a manner likely to severely blunt the edges, a 1k stone should cut fast enough to apex a nakiri or paring decently quickly.
Coarser stones are more necessary in cases where you are dealing with harder use knives, in more wear resistant steels, with thicker grinds that mean wider edge bevel (more surface area that had to be ground).
Even on my pocket knives I generally start at 1k unless the edge has previously been abused or I am trying to change the bevel angle.
Also, I'd probably take the Steelex over the King for your usage.
>>7175700
Not the guy you replied to, but are you spyderco guy? You're the one who started with all the frogposting and ree. Stop acting like you're the only person on earth who has ever sharpened a knife.
>>7175722
It's not all that rare. Until recently, most with western handles were around that weight, some about an ounce lighter. The biggest difference in weight in most cases came from having a wa handle, which made them quite blade heavy. That was something many cooks did not like, adding most to the more recent phenomenon of thinner blades all around. It is now more of a marketing thing than anything else, unless it has a wa handle.
It is san-mai. He did some honeyaki in white #2 recently, I believe as his last production, but I have not bought one. I'll see about taking a few more pictures tonight.
>>7175784
He is not, and the shitposting was in response to a few people being buthurt that their lack of knowledge about knives was painfully obvious so they started separately trying to derail the thread.
Now that a few more people who actually know what they are talking about have shown up, and the buthurt know nothings have slinked away with their tails between their legs, it is easy to have a nice conversation about kitchen knives.
This is a Singaporean Sock Puppet Emporium so shouting at bad ideas should hardly be shocking to you.
>>7175748
Are blade guides necessary or is maintaining an angle straightforward? Tojiros are angled really steep right?
>>7175829
The only guy getting butthurt was spyderco guy, apparently you missed his 50 post tantrum where he flooded the thread with forum copypasting after he got mad that nobody was agreeing with him, because it got mostly deleted by a janitor.
I've been getting all kinds of 'thanks' in this thread now that we're all adults here, the only logical conclusion is that the guy got banned for extreme shitposting, because mostly (aside from your little snitfit just now) people aren't insulting each other or posting pepes from /r9k/
>>7170467
i have the tojiro dp 10.5'' gyuto. best ~$80 ive spent on kitchen equipment
>>7175997
not who you are asking, but Tojiro DPs are gyuto, so its asymmetrical edge.
>>7176074
100%
>>7167921
Better make sure its legit, those knives are few and scarce. Only one guy makes them and there are tons of frauds and fakes. You might overpay for it.
>>7176105
man, fuck Bob Kramer. Dude tried to patent damascus steel and all his knives are wall hangers. and he steals designs and most of his production is done by shop techs, he doesnt' forge anything anymore. there's a million better knife makers out there.
hell, I'd rather have one of those goofy Aura knives before I'd pay for a Kramer
>>7175786
So at this point, do you consider this a fusion knife, like many smiths make in the US, or still in the bounds of traditional Japanese cutlery?
I'm curious to hear your take on what exactly this is in terms of category. Interesting also that you think laser gyutos are a pushback trend, I consider them a sort of "extremification" of the existing gyuto pattern, not a reaction trend.
>>7176114
I'd you wanted a Kramer pattern, doesn't Zwilling make a production version? As far as I know, it even has the distal taper, so there really is no reason to go for an original if you aren't a collector.
>>7163284
I use a combo of Jap, german and US produced knives in my kitchen.
Mostly Miyabi. But only a moron would go culturally exclusive when it comes to knives.
Is there a real/significant or whatever difference between different whetstones? Will a cheaper stone achieve the same or similar results as the more expensive stones? I already have a diamond stone (1000 grit) but want to buy a whetstone with a finer grit. I was looking at something like this.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/2000-5000-Kitchen-Knife-Grit-Sharpener-Water-Stone-Dual-Whetstone-FUK-/151888890039?nav=SEARCH
Will this work for knives with a hardness of around 56HRC
I haven't got really expensive knives (around 70 range max) and am looking at it from a utility point of view.
What justifies the premium price for the more expensive stones?
>>7176126
I would define it as -
Gyuto: A western style chef knife made with some decidedly Japanese methods or design influence.
I don't consider them traditional, but there are traditional smithing methods used in the making of some. If someone says traditional Japanese knife to me, my head goes straight to bevel shape of things like deba and yanagi. That doesn't mean that is an absolute truth. It's kind of like trying to define the exact parameters of what is pizza.
I don't think of lasers as a pushback. I think of the ones with wa handles as a refinement, and I think the rest is more hype than anything. The thinness of the entire blade doesn't mean much with a good edge, and I think it's silly to pay for smiths to break a lot more knives for the sake of it. To a certain point, of course. You aren't going to be able to put an edge 1/4 of an inch in the middle of a flat side of a brick and be able to cut through a loaf of bread very well, but we're not talking about monofilaments, either.
That's my opinion, but I know there are plenty who feel the same.
>>7176734
Ok. for me, it has to, y'know, be a gyuto, with the distinct blade shape and the hardness and we can argue about the beveling some other time, kyuuyuu; but the furniture is important too and I think a full tang and birds head handle kinda puts it out of the gyuto territory- that's changing the classic performance characteristics of the gyuto closer to a Western knife. I agree with you on laser, it's a fad, but I'd really like to see someone do something cool with a modern steel and make a gyuto knife so thin and strong you can bend it in a circle and still have it cut like it has an a 62RC edge
Aaannnnyway, thanks for the generally grown up conversation about weeb shit and in return here are some pics of my ~100 year old JA Henckels Twin Works 102-10" knife, which was my absolute favorite knife ever even though I prefer 8" blades, until i snapped the tip off in a pork shoulder, which sent me into a deep depression. still trying to find the time to reprofile it but you can clearly see the interesting aspects of this knife, the standard for chef's knives at the same time that gyutos were popularized in Japan.
>>7177115
and the spine- note that your hiramoto is a fair bit thicker than this ~100 year old blade
>>7177117
and hopefully you can see the finished edge bevel here, the angle i would guesstimate is less than 15 degrees in total.
this knife was a church sale find for $10 and it is the best chef's knife i have ever used beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm really bummed about the tip. They come up on ebay from time to time but it's a crapshoot, this is preWWI and post war the quality declined significantly.
but..there's the proto gyuto in all it's glory, and it was and is a damned good idea.
>>7177115
PS I was the poster with the large meat cleaver posted above
>SPOILER: it's a really really hard edge, ~60RC at least
http://www.amazon.ca/Winco-Bread-Knife-8-Inch-Stainless/dp/B00C0N9DNK/ref=sr_1_95?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1450322814&sr=1-95&keywords=bread+knife
Is this a good enough bread knife? If not, what should I get? Has to be a Canadian reseller.
>>7176734
>>7177115
Personally, I'm generally a fan of laser geometries because I tend to think any thickness behind the edge in a gyuto beyond that necessary to prevent an excessive risk of macro scale edge damage to just be wasted cutting ability, and therefore wasted edge retention as well.
To me the more interesting question is how thin you can go and in which steels before you start getting an excessively fragile knife.
My Kohetsu AS 210mm gyuto is a fairly extreme laser, and i haven't had any issues with it in home cooking use.
I would like to have the free time and spergdollars to recreate videos like this with a $20 Victo or Walmart Chicago blade, it's just so cringey that people think this is in any way meaningful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLndCRbWOGw
Reminder that cutco knives are pro-shit fucking baller cutters.
>kek
look at this fucking tool, imitating "chef cuts" like he's ever spent a minute cooking for a living and making all this retarded mock prep shit seem special
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Cs2lR-rD8
he's literally getting his rocks off on pretending to be a professional cook, this has to be some kind of mental illness
JUST A HINT THE KNIFE ISN'T HELPING DUDE IT'S JUST A FUCKING KNIFE
I hate to sort of request for this kind of help but well...
My mother has been using the cheapest shittiest chinese knives in the entire world and I'd really like to get her something nicer for Christmas.
I've been looking at maybe one of the Victorinox sets, but I'm not sure.
Any recommendations for a knife set around the 100 dollar mark?
>>7177115
love the knife
Do you plan on repairing the tip anytime soon? With a new handle I'd happily rock it.
You're right that the spine is thinner along some of it, but getting closer to the handle it is quite a bit thicker than the Hiromoto. There really isn't a ton of taper on the Hiromoto, but it is there if you look closely up until about 2.5 inches from the tip where it is obvious. Most of the AS that I see for sale online have been reground, acid etched, and rehandled, which saddens me, given that they were new to begin with.
Threw in another one I thought you might find interesting, which I have always heard, read, and referred to myself as a gyuto. It is 7.7 ounces, and I would be willing to bet that the blade alone (meaning no tang) is heavier than the blade alone of Hiromoto, as there is not really a taper, just a convex grind.
>>7177754
They're western shaped, right? We're not talking Chinese cleavers and such? Do you know if she has any preferences, or does she use them simply because she has them and never even thought about getting new ones? If the latter, Victorinox is probably a good choice. Durable knives, decent edge retention, pretty comfortable to use for most people.
>>7177839
Oh yes I should have mentioned that.
Most definitely Western edges.
She simply uses them because she never really put any interest into any sort of better knives.
I quite like the idea of the Victorinox but I can't really find any good deals on a set.
>>7163534
Agreed. Solid knives for the price.
>>7177842
Start with a Chef knife. Good deals around $30 now, average is around $40 for an 8 inch, less if you think she would prefer a 6 inch or one of their "narrow chef knives", but I think the normal 8 inch is a better all around blade. You could add a paring and a utility/petty or whatever you think she would use most from there.
>>7177184
Anyone?
>>7177812
>>7177812
>getting closer to the handle it is quite a bit thicker than the Hiromoto
nope :)
>>7178401
because nobody knew what distal taper was until bob fucking Kramer invented it in 1985 amirite
>>7178405
and the final taper, it comes down evenly from the bolster to the tip and I'm convinced that's what makes it handle so well, this thing just sings in the hand.
Its been like that for a year plus, reprofiling it and keeping the angle and the shape right are going to be a bitch and a half, I dont have the time to do it right unfortunately.
if you see one for cheap, pick it up just to handle even if you get crap steel, the design and balance are just remarkable compared to modern Western knives, for an enthusiast I think its worth owning even if its not your daily driver.
>>7177812
>Takagi 210mm
that's nice for sure I would call that the classic gyuto, trad. Japanese construction all the way but the Western inspired shape. honyaki and ground sharp I bet that's a real pleasure to use.
does the bevel favor the right hand or is it 50/50? is the hype about Takagi blades real, I keep hearing the guy is hanging it up but knives keep coming out...
>>7178326
Its perfectly fine. should last you a lifetime
>>7178436
Don't listen to the weebs, japanese steel is primitive compared to modern steel
>>7178874
Blue #2 is a modern steel. its cromoly and Hitachi makes it
>>7178874
Oh, please do enlighten us about Japanese steel types and their advantages and disadvantages. I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
>>7179448
>I'm totally ignorant of the subject matter
>Guess I'll try and derail the thread again by shitposting to try and cover up my embarrassment.
Be quiet, adults are talking.
>>7179465
>adults
>watching cartoons
Pick one
>>7178874
Owner of those knives here. I'm not a weeb. I love a lot of other knives, more than those pictured in some cases, and those are certainly not the only knives I own.
>>7178436
It is nice, but it is a bit of a log splitter. I plan on re-grinding it at some point. I did grind on a 50/50 flat bevel just to see what would happen by taking a little more material away from the edge. It helped a little, but not enough.
>>7178401
nice
Most that I've seen have more of a taper up to the spine, resulting in a thicker spine at the rear. That's the original geometry, never been reground?
>>7179912
original
