Hi /ck/
I have just recently bought 2 really nice knives (a chef's knife and a paring knife) and I'm looking to get some new equipment to make the most of them. Obviously, I'll need to sharpen the knives occasionally, so I've decided to buy some whetstones. I've been looking at getting a few Naniwa Professional stones (pic related - essentially the same as Chosera stones) to do the bulk of the sharpening and then maybe a higher grit stone from another manufacturer to get a polished finish.
The main thing I want to ask is; are there any downsides to getting these as my first whetstones? I have read very good things about the Professional/Chosera stones and I'm quite keen to buy some, but I'm worried that I may damage them as a result of inexperience. Is there any chance that, during the process of learning to sharpen, poor technique could have any irreparable adverse effects on the stones?
There is nowhere local that offers knife sharpening services (and I'm 99% sure the nearest places use belt sanders), so I will need to be able to sharpen my own knives. As such, I may as well get some long-lasting whetstones and so will definitely be getting some of these at some point. The only question is whether I get them right away or start with cheaper stones.
>tl;dr is it a good idea to learn to sharpen on Naniwa Professional whetstones?
>>7113430
Buy a stone fixer alone with the stones
It's a small coarse block used to smooth out the stones if you fuck it up or just after repeated use
I like to wear down the edges of my stones with the fixer as knives tend to get caught on them while sharpening
Just look at some youtube vids on how to sharpen, there's a lot of chefs who will give good examples
There's several techniques so it's a matter of finding what works best for you
Just remember it's never about how hard or fast you move the knife across the stone, it's about finding the right angle, that sweet spot, & working it til it's sharp
>>7113543
Thanks for all the info anon.
Forgot to mention that I'm planning to get a flattening stone (or maybe 2). I'm going to go for the larger ones because I think they make it easier to level the surface. Like the whetstones, they are also Naniwa.
Yeah, I've found YouTube to be a really good source of information. I've basically spent the last week just constantly watching sharpening videos about all sorts of different techniques and knife edge shapes (even though my knives just have basic 50:50 edges).
>Just remember it's never about how hard or fast you move the knife across the stone, it's about finding the right angle, that sweet spot, & working it til it's sharp
Top-notch advice m8. I will definitely try to remember this. I think it could be especially important if I do go for the Professional stones, as I've heard that they sharpen effectively under very slight pressure.
Really want to go for these stones now. They're expensive, but within my budget. Are there any potential problems (other than cracking as a result of oversoaking/improper drying) which can't be fixed with a stone fixer? If not, I think I will just commit and hopefully they will last me for a long time.
>>7113806
Not the guy who replied before, but the older style stone fixers are pretty slow. You might want to get a very coarse diamond plate instead.
You don't really need to worry about "improper" soaking as long as you're just using clean tap water and air drying (not sticking it in the oven or something)
>>7115062
>the older style stone fixers are pretty slow
Could you give a rough idea on how long they take? I'm only a home cook, not a professional chef and so I don't mind spending a bit of time flattening. My concern is whether they will give results as good as a diamond plate.
>You might want to get a very coarse diamond plate instead
I would really like one of these, but they are expensive (the DMT plate costs more than all 3 of the Professional stones combined). I could afford one, but it'd completely top out my budget. Buying it now and hoping people gift me money at Christmas is smart money-management, right?
Looking at some US sites, cheaper diamond plates are available (even including shipping from the States). Any anons used any of these plates (such as http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/sharpening-accessories/products/diamond-flattening-plate - pic related)? How do they match up?
>You don't really need to worry about "improper" soaking as long as you're just using clean tap water and air drying (not sticking it in the oven or something)
I guess so - the only reason I asked about this is that I have heard reports of Chosera/Professional whetstones developing cracks. Apparently as long as you dry them standing on one of their thin edges, this is not an issue as they dry more evenly.
>>7115173
>rough idea on how long they take
If you wait until the stone is visibly dished, you could be grinding away for an hour or more
If you scrub your stone after every use, then it won't be as much of an issue
Cheap plates are fine for flattening. Expensive ones have tighter tolerances for flatness, which is not a concern for flattening other stones
belt sander is the hands down best way to sharpen to any desired finish.
japanese stones are synthetic and extremely soft and require training/and or extensive practice, you're abusing your knife if you don't know what you're doing.
If you want to hand sharpen, I reccomend a tri stone setup with hard black Arkansas as the finest stone, that can take you from blade profiling to around 8-10,000 grit(Japanese grit) and is very easy to learn and will last you at least 20 years unless you are running a professional kitchen
>>7115233
>you're abusing your knife if you don't know what you're doing
I don't think you need to worry about giving any advice here on how not to abuse knives, guy who detempers his knives on a belt sander
>>7115244
>PROTIP: when using a belt sander to sharpen a knife, the metal will never get too hot to touch, let alone alter the molecular structure of the metal
>>7115188
Thanks a lot for the advice. I will definitely look to get a diamond plate now, especially as it will probably require less maintenance than a flattening stone (which can dish and can itself require flattening). Also, I can probably get away with a single plate - I was looking to get at least 2 different grit flattening stones.
If cheap plates work, then they're surely the better option. Are the ultra-level DMT Dia-Flat plates for ridiculously high-grit stones (like the Shapton 30,000) or something? What kind of stone needs to be flattened so perfectly?
>>7115233
I'm not massively knowledgeable about knife sharpening, but i know enough to know that belt sanders are not kind on your knives. I'm not massively bothered if I mess up my knives whilst learning - I'm going to practise on my old, cheap knives. Also, a knife edge can be completely reshaped if you get it disastrously wrong, so I'm more worried about taking care of the stones.
>>7115244
Good point. Also, you introduced cats into the thread.
>so many dubs in this thread, but I don't have any...
Just bought this. Rated best sharpener on Cook's Illustrated and brought all my knives to BETTER than factory edge. Also converts all 20 degree blades to 15. Best money I've ever spent on my kitchen.
>>7115451
>brought all my knives to BETTER than factory edge
OP here. Isn't that the target whenever you sharpen a knife? I haven't used my new knives yet (I'm going until my new custom chopping board is ready), but I'm sure that they will not be as sharp straight out of the box as they could be after using the whetstones.
>Also converts all 20 degree blades to 15
This is something I meant to ask about, but forgot. When learning to sharpen, should I try to match the angle of the existing edge, or just focus on keeping the angle I sharpen at consistent? I know that once you get the feel for what angle you like on your knife, you can just sharpen to this level each time.
>>7115233
>belt sander is the hands down best way to sharpen to any desired finish.
Never post about sharpening again, you ignorant fuck.
>>7115451
>Using a pull through sharpener
>ever
Ayy lmao! Enjoy your ruined knives!
>>7113430
What kind of knives do you have? Western or Japanese? What final grit are you planning to sharpen your knives to?
I would also highly recommend a very coarse diamond plate to keep your Waterstones flat, and I would recommend flattening them before each use because it is much faster than doing it once in a while.
It is hard to recommend a line of waterstones for someone who has no experience with them, because a lot of the choice between different lines of stones depends on the individual preferences of the user.
Naniwa Professional stones are fairly fast cutting, hard, stay flat for a long time and not very muddy. They give a decent but not great amount of tactile and audible feedback in use
There are other stones which are much softer (easier to accidentally gouge), muddier, and that dish faster, but those can be great for the people who prefer them.
The first question is what finishing grit you have in mind through, all else flows from there.
>>7115451
Exquisix
I love the feeling of sharpening with whetstones. You'llbe able to sharpen anything. Only downside is if you drop it on concrete it will snap in half, even the best of quality. I'll advise that you get the good stuff when you master the sharpening. I've learned this from my grandfather who has been a woodworker for over 60 plus years.
>>7115354
>belt sanders are not kind on your knives
you have been misinformed. All professional knife makers and cutlerers use them and they are the standard tool
>>7116984
you are a moron. A belt sander can put a flawless surgical edge on your knife in 1/1000 the time you'll spend scraping it on a rock like a caveman.
Sharpening on stones is either an affectation(you=tryhard) or because you have a reason not to own a belt sander, which is fine, they have their place but not understanding that you can do a better job with the right machine is just ignant
>ignant, foo
>>7115233
Fuck all the haters.
If it's a cheap blade (under $200) then just belt sand it, for convenience sake.
If it's under $200 and you want to learn to use stones, buy 3 cheap stones. You are probably going to slip up and gouge the soft stone knocking a huge chip in it that you'll have to ground out -wasting the life of the stone. Wasting the life of an expensive stone is tantamount to raping a $200 blade on a belt sander.
>>7115661
this machine is good but you can get a better result by hand for one reason: straight lines
hard sharpening (on a stone or belt sander) allows you to curve the and profile the final grind in to an appleseed shape, sometimes called the "Moran edge". it's the same final shape Japanese sword makers aimed for, the curve allows for a more efficient slice and separation than the geometer-straight triangle edge this machine produces.
So when sharpening by hand, you need to aim for consistency but be aware that you are naturally shaping the edge into an appleseed or almond profile because of the minor variations in your motion, but that's actually a good thing. Some folks add a swooping motion or deliberately work micro angles but as a beginner you need to focus on consistency first and always until you're confident.
>>7117203
>hard sharpening
HAND sharpening
>fml
>tryna sound smart here
> S_M_R_T I AM SMART
>>7117203
That's why I bought an Apex system with Shapton glass stones.
I can be completely shitfaced and still not fuck up the blade or stone.
>>7115313
kek
what is frikshun
>>7117309
Your argument is equivalent to me just calling you pic related.
The only legitimate argument against belt sanders is that they are expensive. They don't heat up the metal that much. It's not forging temperatures. But you can definitely fuck up a blade easier on a belt sander if you don't know how to hold an angle. Less forgiveness.
>>7117189
>belt sander
>flawless surgical edge
>power grinding heat treated steel
>without water cooling
Wew lad
>>7117195
God now I know why all I see in knife threads on /k/ are factory edges.
>>7117227
I have a couple of issues with guided rod systems: They take much longer than freehanding on full sized bench stones, and they give you a limited range of angles you can use.
They are also quite expensive. Some people love them though.
Op again. Not going to bother weighing in on the arguments, because I don't know enough.
>>7117009
>What kind of knives do you have? Western or Japanese?
It's a bit of a mixture - it's made in Japan and from Damascus steel, but it has a 50-50 edge and Western-style handle (not one of those octagonal ones).
>What final grit are you planning to sharpen your knives to?
For the Naniwa stones, I was thinking of going to 3000 grit. However, I have heard good things about the King 6000 grit (even though King stones are quite cheap), so I might buy one of them as well.
>I would also highly recommend a very coarse diamond plate to keep your Waterstones flat, and I would recommend flattening them before each use
>>7115062 Already planned to do that on this anon's advice. The ones available in the UK are very dear, but I've found a place in Japan that has some better prices. Only downside is that, as shipping will take a while, I won't be able to flatten the stones straight away. I might just have one go and then wait for the plate to arrive.
>It is hard to recommend a line of waterstones for someone who has no experience with them
I completely understand that - the main purpose of this thread was to ask if there would be any real downsides to starting with the Professional stones. If it's just down to personal preference, I may as well go for them. I won't know which type of stone I'll prefer until I start sharpening.
>>7117174
>Only downside is if you drop it on concrete it will snap in half, even the best of quality.
Trust me; given how expensive the stones are, I'm definitely going to be careful with them.
>>7117203
>as a beginner you need to focus on consistency first and always until you're confident.
Thanks for the advice anon - I've watched videos/read about micro-bevels, but I'll steer clear of them until I can do the basics.
>>7117195
>You are probably going to slip up and gouge the soft stone knocking a huge chip in it that you'll have to ground out
That's actually one of the main reasons I was looking to get the Naniwa Professional stones - they are fairly hard stones and it is thus less likely that poor initial technique will cause significant gouging.
>>7117836
>limited range of angles
How do you figure that?
>>7117943
His grandpa told him so and his grandpa knows a lot about knives.
>>7117817
exactly what machine do you think we're talking about here, that is so astonishingly potent and able to generate blaade melting energies?
post a pic or a link
>>7118002
You don't need to melt a blade in order to damage it
The contact point is only 1 or 2 mm, that's nowhere near big enough to dissipate the heat generated from grinding fast enough to avoid damage
inb4 the blade isn't glowing white hot so there's not a problem
>>7118054
>comparing a lansky to an apex or a wicked edge
top pleb
a lansky has preset notches: 30, 25, 20, and 17
an apex goes from 30 to 10 with infinite adjustability within that range. there are markers at certain common angles but you can pick any angle you want.
the wicked edge can go from 35 to 8 with, again, infinite adjustability
since this is "food and cooking" and not /out/, the apex is already overkill for range. what food and cooking knife do you need to sharpen where you're doing a 45 degree edge?
>>7118066
Words have definitions, and "between 10 and 30" means there are upper and lower limits.
Also, since when can the wicked edge get below 10 degrees pee side? I thought it was 13 minimum.
Anyway, that's secondary to how goddamn slow guided rod systems are compared to freehand.
>>7118066
I've got an Edgepro knock off. It does the job but I had to replace the stones.
Utterly useless for convex grinds though>
>>7118072
As long as you're satisfied in being technically correct (even though your limits have no practical meaning in real life), then sure. Guided rod systems are shit because they can't do 90 degree angles or launch a rocket into space.
>Also, since when can the wicked edge get below 10 degrees pee side
They sell an accessory for that
>Anyway, that's secondary to how goddamn slow guided rod systems are compared to freehand.
That doesn't really make any sense unless you are counting setup time which takes like 20 seconds. Are you only accustomed to using the default abrasives? You know you can get pretty much any common stone cut to size for these systems? I can work much faster with the glass stones on my EP than I can with the mudstones I use for my traditional japanese knives that require half an hour of soaking before I can start working.
>>7118008
>inb4 physics don't real
no seriously post this magical blade eating machine you think we're talking about
>>7118089
if you want to ruin your knives then be my guest, I'm not going to play troll games with an idiot
>we
no, not really
>>7118082
The vast majority of my edge bevels are set below 10 degrees per side, hence the relevance of that limitation to guided rod systems to me.
Also, full size stones are much faster because the edge bevel crosses more abrasive surface area per pass and you can make passes much faster freehand once you are practiced at it vs the smaller contact area and slower pass speed of guided rod systems.
Basically, I can flatten a waterstone and do ~150 passes per side on it in less than 5 minutes, a guided rod system would just slow me down.
>>7118137
>the smaller contact area
What kind of knives are you dealing with? Usuba? Yanagi? Because anything short of that, the contact area is going to be trivial compared to the size of the stone, regardless of the size of the stone.
>>7118150
No, I mean the edge bevel of the knife is sweeping across more stone on each pass because a full size stone has more surface area to sweep across on each pass.
>>7117189
This thread hurts to read so I'm going to stop. I just started lurking ck and I feel like I shouldn't. I'm too old not to just be on WSG and stuff.
I use a nip stone at home. Since the 90s I like them in the kitchen, cooks like them. If you ever work with orientals they use all their techniques with stones. I don't know of any restaurant with an in house sharpener. As a cook every few months starting in the mid 70s I took all my knives and a lot of equipment to a sharpener. A professional sharpener, you know not just for your basic knives but for really expensive high carbon blades in commercial grinders. As a chef like once every three months. With one of the stones you soak I feel like it's once every six months. You take it to a professional sharpener that uses their sanders and whatever grinders. Then you pick them up and go about your life.
I don't get this belt sander thing. It's a professional sharpener often who has done this and served restaurants for most of their career which can go back decades.
>>7119355
belt sander and belts, including leather finishing belt and paste will run you $80 last a life time for home users and put a sushi quality edge on in minutes.
these people are discussing fucking $500 stones and shit and they dont even know how to sharpen a knife.
>>7120009
>everyone is stupid except me
Nobody here is discussing $500 stones, and you obviously don't know how to sharpen a knife
Maybe you should take a cue from that other guy and threaten to leave. Oh what would we do without you ;_;
>STONES ARE FUCKING WET WHEN YOU USE THEM
>SOME RETARD PUT AN "H" AFTER THE W FOR SOME STUPID REASON
I have to take a phiss, after I chlean my car, and jherk off.
>>7120009
>belt sander
>sushi quality edge
>with a fucking belt sander
>accusing other people of not knowing how to sharpen a knife
Sorry, what was that? I can't hear you over the sound of my freehand mirrored 13,000 grit edge on HAP 40.
>>7120017
Learned to sharpen a knife by hand to a mirror edge when i was 9 years old and have a full set of stones including a black Arkansas I've had for 20 years. I made a splitting hatchet shaving sharp on a bet when i was 15 with a single double sided synthetic round stone and nothing else
Machines do the job faster and better.
>>7120134
I'm sorry but my time is more valuable than that, when i can get the same results with the appropriate rouge and a flap wheel in 1/10 the effort.
there are good reasons for sharpening by hand. they include: lack of access to electricity, an inability to justify the investment in a belt sander, a desire to learn obsolete techniques for their own sake, and traditional practices that give their performer comfort or maintain some kind of nebulous moral value for society at large.
there is no practical value at all.
>>7120009
My bad I thought it was distrust of pro craftsman. This is ridiculous do you know who makes sushi sharp knives? Sushi professionals using stones. At home I don't really dull much to be honest but I was given a stone for Christmas and it's actually fun scratching up and making my knives look weird. They still function perfect. They do get excellently sharp with a pretty dang good polish. I would go "learning the stone" over throwing $80 away.
>>7120202
Howdy cowboy you rootin and tootin?
my dad is a professional sponsored woodcarver and is paid to go to shows. 95% of what he sharpens is done on a power wheel similar to pic. if i recall, the rig was about 150$ and then another 150$ for the wheel itself. He has a belt sander, and several thousand dollars worth of stones. This is a guy who sits there at shows hand sharpening peoples pocket knives and then doing gimmick cuts like phone books and arm hair shaving. When someone with that level of skill uses power sharpening when no ones looking, thats how you know that shit works. I'm just suprised no one ever talks about it, since a machine like that is less than most of your fancy schmancy japanese mud stones.
I literally take my kitchen knife drawer over there a couple times a year and he sharpens 20 knives and all my pocket knives in about 20 minutes.
The guy talking about the rouge and flap wheel above is the only guy in this thread making sense about practical sharpening. You guys are into some wierd zen sharpening meditation stuff or you into making a tool sharp enough to do your job and then moving on.
>>7121245
>arm hair
>gimmick cut
indeed, it doesn't really take much to push cut arm hair
get back to me when his ruined knives can pass the HHT* after dicing a bag of onions
*feel free to look that one up
>>7121253
>*feel free to look that one up
dang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsgPG-HOzd0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm53mCOQTR8
>>7121245
>>7120202
Just some information: The type of sharpening wheel you show is specifically designed for sharpening knives and tools and thus is designed to turn slowly enough and be liquid cooled while in use (like a Tomek wheel sharpener) specifically to avoid the risk of damaging the heat treatment of the knives.
Such sharpening systems are also typically limited to intermediate grit finishes on the order of 1k - 3k max.
Conversely, belt Sanders have no liquid cooling and generate considerably more heat due to the rpms being much higher. This makes them have a very high risk of damaging the heat treatment of the steel (which should NEVER be power ground post heat treatment without liquid cooling), aa well having a high risk of removing excessive amounts of steel.
Finally, attempting to use a belt sander to achieve a highly polished finish on a knife is particularly I'll advised because the heat and friction increase compared to the cutting action which makes burnishing (shaping the edge by plastic deformation rather than cutting/abrassion) the primary mode of action, meaning an extremely weak apex is likely to result.
These matters are well known in the industry, and there is a very good reason that basically all custom knife makers hand sharpen their knives post heat treatment and why high end production makers use water cooling for their power grinding (such as Spyderco's new computer controlled water cooled belt grinder at their US factory).
>>7121253
The word for a knife that will not shave arm hair is "dull". A decently sharp 300-500 grit edge should have no trouble shaving arm hair and slicing newsprint. A truly sharp coarse edge will push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees.
>>7121269
>These matters are well known in the industry,
you are a retard, and you are lying.
>>7121299
well, just as there are airlines that will hire anyone with a pulse and the pilots will do stupid shit like let their kids fly the plane (aeroflot) or unplug the computer that controls the entire airplane (air asia), resulting in lulzy crashes, there are plenty of retards who make a living sharpening knives the stupid way
but if you want to refer to the people who actually have standards, that guy is right. the equivalent of US and EU airlines, you might say. whereas mr. sparky belt sander is kind of like PIA or Biman or Cubana or Air Koryo
I sharpen both on waterstones and with a belt sander, and I will say that a belt sander, combined with a cotton cloth buffing wheel and some polishing paste for deburring, can give a very good edge. I also use it for thinning my knives. I have turned some really horrible $5 walmart knives into knives that will slice though food better than a $200 Jap knive by thinning (they won't hold an edge as well, of course) But is IS really easy to fuck it up and destroy the steel, that it is. I have seen the tip of more than one knife turn red hot and dissolve in a shower of sparks in fraction of a second because I fucked up during thinning.
>>7121299
http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?30914-Sharpening-Methods-and-their-Effects-on-Heat-Treatments/
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/905618-do-you-heat-treat-before-grinding
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/737027-steel-overheating
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/929370-Sharpening-with-belt-sander/page2
Should I start delving deeper into the work or Roman Landes and Kevin Cashen on this subject, or is this enough for you to realize you are totally out of your depth and should be quiet before you continue embarrassing yourself?
>>7121593
>cliffstamp.com
lol
>>7122008
Did you have an actual argument to make? No? Be quiet then.
>>7117917
If you are planning to avoid micro bevels and want a finishing grit in the 3k-6k range, I would say that you could consider a Bester 1,200 and Suehiro Rika 5,000 as an inexpensive pair of waterstones that give good feedback and produce good results.
I would avoid a very muddy stone like a King as a finishing stone because the slurry it tends to form will dull the apex as you sharpen. A Suehiro Rika 5k or Naniwa Professional 5k can more easily be used without a slurry to finish an edge.
>>7122067
he's been banned from basically every knife forum, that's why he had to make his own
>>7122239
The thread I intended to reference: http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?7,4676 does not involve any posts from Cliff, so I don't see the relevance of anything about Cliff in particular.
>>7122086
Well I'm not really planning to avoid micro-bevels entirely, I just want learn the basics first. I definitely will try to learn to do micro-bevels at some point though.
>I would avoid a very muddy stone like a King as a finishing stone because the slurry it tends to form will dull the apex as you sharpen
What causes this? I thought the slurry was the stuff that did the sharpening?
The King 6000 grit and Suehiro Rika 5000 grit are basically the same price. However, I can have the King stone delivered for free, but shipping for the Suehiro stone is over £15 (about £10 if I order it together with my diamond plate). Is the Suehiro worth the extra?
I'll have to make the decision fairly quickly - I will be ordering the plate in the next couple of hours and will need to include the Suehiro Rika stone with it (if getting it).
>>7122601
I would say it is worth the extra for the Suehiro Rika, I think it will be a better stone for you.
As for slurries, you have to understand that a waterstone is basically just abrasive particles bonded together with a binder of some kind. In use, the release of used abrasive particles as a slurry happens simultaneously with good cutting action because fresh abrasive is being exposed on the stone, but the worn abrasive actually trapped in the slurry actually cuts slower than the fresh abrasive released on the stone's surface.
The real problem, however, for someone using that stone as a finishing stone is that the slurry/mud of water and abrasive particles sitting on top of the stone tends to smack into the apex as you make edge leading passes. The solutions to this are to get less muddy stones, to wet them and wipe off any mud built up on them as you get towards the end of making passes on it, and in extreme cases, some people will use edge trailing (stopping style) passes to finish to avoid rounding the apex on the slurry.
If you use a strop or micro bevel to finish your edges, however, then a muddy stone is an advantage because the mud that slightly rounds the apex also keeps it clean and burr free before applying a micro bevel or convex micro bevel with a strop.
>>7121269
>Such sharpening systems are also typically limited to intermediate grit finishes on the order of 1k - 3k max.
Part of my intent with my post is for actual use, as cutlery or shaving or whatever, why do you need a >3000 grit finish? I just want to differentiate between people who sharpen knives for the purpose of cutting things, and people who sharpen knives for the purpose of zen meditation and masturbation. Nobody making their living cutting beef, fish or wood has ever put a 5000 grit polish on a working knife.
>designed to turn slowly enough and be liquid cooled
yes, that wheel is in a water bath, its 2-3" wide and moves at under 100 rpm
>>7121253
>indeed, it doesn't really take much to push cut arm hair
>get back to me when his ruined knives can pass the HHT* after dicing a bag of onions
what my dad does is solicit walker-by's pocket knives, hit it with two different whetstones and a strop with rouge on it in under 60 seconds then lays the knife flat on his open palm and shaves a little patch of hair off with gravity and horizontal motion.
Certainly not the sharpest possible he could make it, but enough to impress most folk and gather crowds so he can shill his carvings :)
>>7122626
Thanks for the detailed explanation anon, it was really interesting and informative. If i'm being honest, I didn't expect >>7117917 to get any replies after the arguments kicked off.
I've just been reading about the two stones - the Suehiro does tend to get better reviews and it certainly seems less muddy than the King, though both are definitely described as very soft stones.
I'm considering spending the extra on the Suehiro (if nothing else, it's a larger stone), but on some forums I have seen people suggest it performs more like a 3k-4k stone than the 5k it's sold as. Is this your experience? If so, I may steer clear - I'm going to be getting a Naniwa Professional 3000 grit and so the Suehiro would be a bit redundant in that case.
Also, does anyone know if the King 6000 is fixed to the base? The Suehiro is available loose, but I'm not sure about the King. If it's not, that would be a disadvantage.
>>7122720
The one sold with a base is fixed to the base. The one sold without a base, obviously, is not.
Also, I'm gonna disagree with the guy on the anti-mud stance, yes it slows down the work as it builds, but that's what a finer stone does too, and conveniently enough a muddy stone effectively becomes a finer stone as the mud builds up.
Also if you are dealing with single bevel knives the mud gives you a more aesthetically pleasing finish, especially if you are not planning to take it to 8k+
>>7122720
Is there a particular reason you have you heart set on the 3k out of the Naniwa Professional line? What other grits are you planning to get? I would assume something like 1k, 3k and ~6k would be sensible grit choices, but the Naniwa Stones start getting silly expensive above 3k.
>>7122730
Actually, personally I prefer very muddy stones because I set my apexed with a micro-bevel. I was advising *him* against a very muddy stone like a King because he doesn't intend to strop or micro-bevel after using the waterstones. In this case, he may have trouble with a muddy stone rounding the apex.
>>7122730
>The one sold with a base is fixed to the base. The one sold without a base, obviously, is not.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
>>7122734
>Is there a particular reason you have you heart set on the 3k out of the Naniwa Professional line?
Mainly because the site where I'm planning to get the stones offers a package deal on the 400, 1k and 3k stones together. If I don't buy the 3k as well, then I have to pay full price on the other stones. I doubt I'll need the 400 for my new knives, but buying just the 1k and 3k stones isn't much cheaper than the full offer (plus I plan to practise on some old knives which will definitely need a coarse stone).
>I would assume something like 1k, 3k and ~6k would be sensible grit choices
This is basically what I'm looking to do and is why I was considering the King stone.
>the Naniwa Stones start getting silly expensive above 3k.
Definitely agree with you there. I'm not even entertaining the possibility of getting a 5k Naniwa Professional (especially as a lot of people are critical of it).
>>7122739
2beeh, I wouldn't necessarily have to start using the 5000-6000 grit immediately. Like I said, I plan to practise on old knives and I'm not too bothered about getting them super polished. I could get the basics with the lower grit stones and then figure out micro-bevels after.
I intend to use the higher grit more with my good knives, but I'm waiting on my chopping board at the moment and so won't be using them for a couple of weeks.
>>7122752
Ah, that makes sense. If you are getting a package deal on the Naniwa Pro 400, 1k and 3k stones I would save up for a Naniwa Junpaku 8k as a finisher. It is the perfect finisher to complement that set of stones and that 3k to 8k jump should be fine.
>>7122811
Okay then, thanks for the advice anon.
However, I hate you for this:
>I would save up for a Naniwa Junpaku 8k as a finisher. It is the perfect finisher to complement that set of stones and that 3k to 8k jump should be fine.
I haven't yet ordered my diamond plate and the site also sells this stone. I'm really debating whether to get it now or not. Being sensible, I think it might be best for me to buy it once I've got to grips with sharpening on the other stones, so I focus on technique (and not just how shiny the edge is). I will definitely go for that stone at some point though - thanks for telling me about it.
I don't need to save up btw - it's just that the higher grit Naniwa Professional stones seem to be massively overpriced (5k is at least 50% more expensive than that Junpaku 8k).
>>7121593
LOL. I know Roman Landes fairly well. he's not hard to get in touch with. What you have failed to grasp and what Roman will freely admit too, is that it *does not matter one bit* to the overwhelming majority of knife users if the first micron on their edge was detempered a few rockwell points. Not one bit. they will never notice the cutting degradation, they will never notice the edge retention becuase these things aren't noticeable until you get into industrail scale processing where you have machines that can adjust by 4 decimal places an shit.
And you know how blades for those cutters are polished to hit that level of precision? grinding. computer aided grinding and polishing because there is literally no human being that can detect this level of imperfection by eye, hand, or anything else. And they avoid the microburn problem by using water fed cooling, AND Landes has been perfectly clear about this as well, he hand sharpens because he likes it and because he doesn't produce enough knives to justify a grinding setup he feels is appropriate.
So yeah, you can bring a 61 Rockwell edge down to 57 for the first micron of it's existence and that, technically, is a burn, but you couldn't tell that edge from a hand stoned edge with a blindfold on and you never will. And Roman Landes supports this. he just doesn't for moral purity. You're busted, kid. go home and take your ball with you.
>>7121305
>mr. sparky belt sander
it's the other way around, stupid. the hand sharpeners are the ones flying C-47s through the jungle and landing by the seat of their pants and the machine users are flying Airbua A380s
anyway, watch and learn- no sparks, mirror edge, less time than it takes to drink a cup of coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1weYvX3nGAs
>>7122008
fuck you Cliff is a god
>>7122632
>5000 grit polish on a working knife.
Japanese grit is not the same as USA. 5000 NipGrit is a soft Arkanasas, a hard black Arkansas is Japanese 12000+
>>7122601
>the slurry was the stuff that did the sharpening
no. It gets in the way, actually, and seriously slows down the cutting action of the stone. What it really does is allow for cleaner cuts and keep the blade cool
>>7123298
>machine users
You can use a machine that's water cooled
The only thing I have an issue with here is people running their knives across old sparky
>>7122909
For all my talk of placing an order fairly soon, I'm actually glad I didn't do it. Checking out different items on the site made me think about any possible customs charges (as well as more costly shipping).
Anyway, I decided to look it up - the charges genuinely made me feel sick. Royal Mail/couriers/HMRC have a ridiculous system going on. The plate only costs £46, but the total cost would exceed £82 - ≈£16 for insured, tracked, fast shipping; >£20 in VAT + 'handling fees'.
Back on topic, how does the DMT XXC 8x3 perform as a flattening plate? I know it's not the intended function, but a lot of people use it as such.
I didn't notice it before, but it's basically the only flattening plate I can find in the UK at a semi-reasonable price. It's actually sold by the same place I'm getting my stones, so I might be able to negotiate a bit of a deal.
>>7122811
>>7122909
>>7123368
I guess this also means that the Naniwa Junpaku 8000 will not be possible to get (it's out of stock on all UK sites). Can any anons recommend any good alternatives to this stone, bearing in mind I'll be getting the Naniwa Professional 400, 1000 and 3000 grit whetstones?
If not, I may just get the King 6000 stone for the time being. I have some add-on items I want from Amazon and it exactly meets the minimum order for that, so it has use beyond just sharpening.
>pic related is the plate I'm getting (at least I think so, there's no image on the site)
>>7123565
just remember that DMT's plates are smaller than you think they are.
>>7123770
What do you mean by that? The dimensions are roughly the same as the Atoma plate I was looking to get (only shorter by a few mm). Does the abrasive not go all the way to the edge or something?
>>7123298
>LOL. I know Roman Landes fairly well.
That's lovely for you.
>the first micron on their edge was detempered a few >they avoid the microburn problem by using water fed cooling
>So yeah, you can bring a 61 Rockwell edge down to 57 for the first micron of it's existence and that, technically, is a burn
So, let me get this straight:
You concede that micro-burning is real and happens in all cases where heat treated steel is power ground without water cooling. You concede that this can soften the metal at the surface by as much as four points of Rockwell hardness. You concede that this problem is best avoided by using liquid cooling when grinding heat treated steel.
You've made no argument that there isn't additionally a significant risk of macro-scale damage to the heat treatment if significant care is not used when power grinding heat treated steel without liquid cooling, and you've totally failed to understand the implicit connection between the macro-scale damage identified by Roman Landed and the macro-scale damage that occurs if larger parts of the blade are allowed to get hot (hint: the former propagates into the later, meaning the damage is a question of degree, not if).
And all of this is supposed to make *me* wrong. Please, keep going, at this rate you'll end up conceding *all* my arguments.
>>7124286
classic autist. you missed the whole point of what that dude was saying in favor of trying to make your own
>>7124332
No, I full well understood his argument, I just strongly disagree with him on a couple of key points.
>>7124332
>I'm not well enough informed to participate in this discussion so I'm just gonna scream autism
Uh huh
>>7123770
The sizes are clearly stated, what are you talking about?
>>7124820
See, I don't think you are understanding the problem here.
Lets assume that the micro-scale damage to the heat treatment caused inevitably when heat treated steel is power ground without liquid cooling no matter how much care is taken would not be perceptible to the typical end user, as you say.
Now, I assume you aren't going to argue that macro-scale damage to a heat treatment is quite possible when power grinding heat treated steel without liquid cooling if you let the blade get too hot, yes? You will allow for the possibility that severe macro-scale damage can occur if someone is careless, yes?
Okay, now connect those two facts and it becomes obvious that the question is not WHETHER the heat treatment is damaged by power grinding without liquid cooling, but rather to what EXTENT it is being damaged, sine the former grows into the later as the amount of grinding increases.
That concedes the argument in its entirety, because it means that the damage is contained to not being perceptible to an end user in the ideal case and can only get worse as liberties are taken.
Hmm, maybe liquid cooling is a good idea after all...
>>7124910
>t becomes obvious that the question is not WHETHER the heat treatment is damaged by power grinding without liquid cooling, but rather to what EXTENT it is being damaged, sine the former grows into the later as the amount of grinding increases.
Name one thing you cut with your fancy "non heat damaged" edge that doesnt cut the same with a "heat damaged" edge? you are masturbating and meditating on a nuance that has no practical application.
>>7124932
Your mistake is assuming that the majority of people power grinding heat treated steel without liquid cooling will be careful enough to minimize the resulting damage to the heat treatment.
The often laughable as boxed edge retention on production folders resulting precisely from over-heating the edge in power grinding it without liquid cooling, which then improves markedly after hand sharpening a few times stands as an excellent example of what happens in the real world where people aren't as careful as they should be.
The large number of threads and warnings on the subject on various knife forums point to the same thing.
>>7124958
>Your mistake is
>le wild fedora appears!
jesus christ, give it up. you can learn to properly sharpen a knife, something a home cook will have to do twice a year at most, on a belt sander, without damaging it(beyond the mythical and immaterial microburn), in a few hours. It's dead easy and cheap. Can you fuck it up? absolutely.
you can also crash your car into a lamppost but I'm going to fucking guess you're not going to give that up so you can artistically walk to work
buying all these Japanese stones and expecting to practice your way into nirvana is bullshit wish fulfillment, it's propaganda, it's the exact worst way to go about it.
You can sharpen your knives on a waterstone! it's OK! I've done it! but for the love of mike stop pretending it makes a single solitary difference and that you're not voluntarily wasting your time!
>>7125060
Ah, so you've totally given up on arguing the substantive points and are retreating into the "it doesn't matter anyway" face saving goalpost moving? Alright then.
>>7125115
>le wild fedora uses strawman!
>It's not effective!
never argue with a reddit class austic on misogyny, my little pony, or katana knife sharping techniques.
>buying all these Japanese stones and expecting to practice your way into nirvana is bullshit wish fulfillment, it's propaganda, it's the exact worst way to go about it.
>You can sharpen your knives on a waterstone! it's OK!
/thread
>>7125239
I'm going to assume you are walking to work. Is that a safe assumption? Not driving or taking the bus because that's just not authentic, after all
Let's get this thread to 100 just for old times sake. It was a fun ride
>>7122086
>>7122720
After I found out about the massive import fees that would arise from getting stuff shipped from Japan, I did a bit more searching around. I've managed to find a company in Germany with a pretty decent selection of whetstones.
They have a Suehiro stone just called 'Honing Stone wide', which is 6000 grit. Has anyone used this stone? Is it any good?
It's not in stock at the moment (I'm hoping it hasn't been discontinued), but it seems like a it would be a good stone. It's much bigger than the King stone and is higher grit than the Suehiro Rika 5000 (which should reduce the redundancy risk).
I'm really glad I found that site, but I'm not sure it will be great for my wallet - the selection is pretty wide, so I'll have to restrain myself to avoid spending a fortune there.
>>7126522
It's a well known brand although I don't have any personal experience with it
Honestly if you are afraid of overspending, go with a simple do everything stone series - Shapton Glass. It's low maintenance and it's really fast cutting, so you can get by with a setup like 500-1k-4k and save the diamond plates for later
>>7126528
Overspending isn't the issue really - it's just that I now have a huge range of stones available to me now and I want to impulsively buy about eight, before I've even used one.
I'm already pretty set on getting the the Professional stones (and a DMT XXC to keep them flat), I'm now just considering which stone(s) I want to get to finish. That site has an Imanishi 10k that looks really good (the main one I'm trying to sensibly refrain from purchasing immediately). The jump from 3k to 10 k might be a bit of a stretch, so I'm trying to find a 5k-6k stone to fill the gap (and use as my finishing stone until I think of a good enough excuse to buy the Imanishi).
>>7124958
Not wading into whether or not to use a belt sander on knives, but as for power grinding steel without liquid cooling...
It's probably the first thing covered in any wood shop class regarding putting a bevel back on a chisel. I'd say most people power grinding a cutting edge are familiar with damaging the steel's temper.
>>7126673
Yeah, I know, but here is what has changed on that subject:
People used to think that as long as you kept the blade from getting too hot as a whole, no damage would occur, so the baseline was zero damage and damage started when the edge got too hot at the macro scale.
More recent work on the subject instead shows that damage begins the instant that grinding begins without liquid cooling, and gets worse as you continue grinding until it ultimately reaches the kind of macro-scale damage you were taught about in shop class. This makes the scenario above more like the upper limit for damage than the baseline.
As a result, I think it is reasonable to conclude that power grinding with liquid cooling or hand grinding should both be preferred strongly to power grinding without any liquid cooling.
>>7127686
Does that micro level damage matter though, especially at the culinary level?
The reason I ask is because there are woodworkers with decades old chisels. I don't know how often a professional 2nd form carpenter has to rebevel his chisels, but I do mine 2 - 3 times a year as a hobbyist. I assume these guys have a daily sharpening schedule, so I imagine they re-bevel at least monthly.
A lot of older guys who still do dovetails keep their chisels sharp enough to pair hard wood easily by hand. Landes may show that these guys are over heating their steel, but if they keep them sharp enough to slice white oak for 20 years, what more do you need for a filet?
>>7127714
The major difference with chisels as opposed to knives is the thickness in cross section.
A chisel edge is several times thicker than a knife edge, and thus likely to sustain much less damage than a knife edge would, both because there is more volume for the heat to dissipate into and because the thicker edge will be much more resistant to suffering from any heat damage incurred.
>>7127714
One additional note: what is considered liquid cooling. Water feed directly on the wheel? While most of us never had that, we were taught to often dip the blade into water to keep it cool as we ground it. Not sure if that counts or not.
>>7127717
Sounds like dropping the rpm for a thinner blade should be enough then.
>>7127714
One other thing I forgot to note is that woodworking tools are typically made of easier to grind steels like O1, as opposed to the high vanadium content steels often used in knives.
>>7127718
Ideally, liquid directly into the wheel. Dipping frequently in water is a good idea through.
>>7127719
It helps, one of the common mods that knife makers make to belt grinders is to add a way to run them slow.
