>mfw people try to say the name Lolita has nothing to do with the book
Okay, so I've been in this fashion for nearly 10 years and have done hours upon hours worth of research into this topic and have found nothing concrete explaining why it's called Lolita. Everyone has been saying it has nothing to do with the book since the dawn of time, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence supporting this claim. There's several different theories about how the name has come up, but none have any proof, just some random person blogging about it.
So yeah, I'm just gonna come out and say it; I think it does have something to do with the book. Lolita is not a word foreign to Japan, in fact they use that word to describe little girls in a sexual context far more than Western countries do. I'm sorry, but it's not a coincidence. If you can give me solid proof as to name origin besides speculation, please do.
>Hours worth of research
Did you even try googling "lolita" in Japanese? One of the first results is the Wikipedia about the fashion, with a section titled "Origin of the Name".
>https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AD%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83%B3#.E5.90.8D.E7.A7.B0.E3.81.AE.E6.84.8F.E5.91.B3
A translation on LiveJournal:
>http://egl.livejournal.com/18952560.html
There you go, anon.
>>9081289
I think the reason lolita is called lolita is because the fashion was an effort to counteract women being sexualaized so maybe it was an effort for young girls to take back the word from its pedophilia context?? idk just my therory based on things ive read
>>9081331
not even close f a m
>>9081331
>because the fashion was an effort to counteract women being sexualaized
That is dumb. You are dumb.
Yeah, the whole "Japan didn't know what lolita means it just sounded cute" argument falls apart when you consider that the phrase lolita complex is well known there...of course maybe the fashion was named before the phrase became well known but idk. I really can't fully buy into the argument.
I've wondered if it had anything to do with Mana?? Has anyone(like a magazine) ever asked him about it? Do Japanese people even care about the origin of the name?
>>9081370
From the link above:
> When Novala Takemoto speaks of Lolita, he maintains that if you do not recognize and distinguish between Nabokov's concept of lolita and its reversed interpretation in Japan derived therefrom, you will quickly deviate from and misunderstand the point and become confused. Because of that, Takemoto has said that lolita [fashion] is based on the Japanese interpretation of "lolita".
> In the book Lolita Ishou Douraku ("Lolita Clothing Indulgence") it is explained as a style that expresses the impish beauty of young females, but also carries a seed of "death" [darkness], so to perceive it as a complete expression of innocence would be too simplistic.
> According to Hitomi Okawa, the director of the fashion label MILK, one of the origins of lolita fashion, MILK's designs are based on the image of "female and therefore cute, with soft angelic elements as well as devilish characteristics" or "a bewitching adult female who still has some childlike features", with an awareness of "a devil wrapped in an angel's skin".
>>9081387
Thanks for pandering to my lazy ass and copy pasting that for me. Thats interesting but I still don't see how it's the Japanese interpretation of lolita if Japan still uses lolita complex to mean "loves little girls" . I guess that is just Japan using the west's interpretation of it...?
Also I'm intrigued that they mention light/darkness, youth/death, innocence/devilishness. Sounds a lot like larme.
>>9081396
Well, when lolicon first came around it was actually meant to indicate characters who looked like little girls, but were actually adult or college-aged. The "character gap" is what made it charming to otaku, like the stereotypical flat-chested tsundere who's secretly insecure about her bust size.
You can sometimes still see these characters in modern anime, but they're a lot more prevalent in older animes. Like teachers who are younger looking than their students, or moms who look like they belong in middle school. The vocaloid song "I'm Glad You're a Lolicon" talks about this, an adult woman with the body of a child who's glad her boyfriend is a lolicon so she feels attractive.
But as times go on, things get more and more extreme, so underground animes targeted to lechers started using /actual/ child characters, and then as weird creepy shit became more and more mainstream in anime, so did underage waifus.
>>9081396
There's some really excellent academic papers on the "sacred criminality" of Lolita based on the novels of Novala Takemoto if you're interested in digging more into that dichotomy.
Momkos selfishness and dark habits/inner thoughts really fascinates me and I think that sort of attitude still underlies the heart of the fashion. There's something about Lolita that feeds into girls dark sides while making them as cute as possible.
>>9081289
I love it when bait threads end in legit discussion
>>9081289
regardless of whether evidence supports it or not... so what? "punk" is derogatory, but the fashion movement owned it. why do you care so much?
>>9081730
Not to mention "Goths" originally meant these guys.
Back when I first got into lolita in 2005, there was a big effort by a lot of people in Japan to change the name to Alice-kei. There were a few people in the West trying to do that too, but obviously it never really became a thing in either country. I really wish the name change attempt had been successful. Back then there were much much fewer people, so it wasn't a stretch that it could catch on and just be the name. Now there are too many people to realistically accomplish that.
>>9081734
This tho
>>9081319
>>9081387
To add a bit more
>>9081915
>missing the entire point of an unreliable narrator in that book description
>>9081396
>Sounds a lot like larme
Larme looks waaay more like the fashion from the movie lolita than the lolita fashion does.
Gonna go ahead and bring up that originally that it's a French girls name. There's a customer where I work who has this as her name.
Nabokov didn't pull it out of nowhere.
>>9082026
I don't think it's French, it's a diminutive of the name Dolores which originates from Spanish. Either way, Nabokov definitely didn't invent the name and there are people with the given name Lolita, I agree with you on that.
>>9081415
On a side note, lolicon comes from "lolita complex" and on the other end you have shotacon from "shotaro complex". Both come from young characters who were sexualized by the fanbase, and then later popularized by fans and media geared towards them. Unlike Lolita though, which obviously comes straight from the book Lolita, shotacon was actually popularized by the author Edogawa Rampo with his character Kobayashi. But still, the term "shota" has been used in both a sexual and non sexual context, like simply calling a cute young boy character a shota. I think it's interesting how both lolita and shota have pretty innocent connotations in modern context (ie: the fashion, and a young boy character), but are both kind of basterized because no matter what they're still both linked to pedophilic otaku pandering.
Not really on point with the whole "why is Lolita fashion named Lolita", I am very curious about why that is, but I still think the word usage is interesting. Sorry for OT.
>>9082049
Ah, so it is Spanish and indeed a derivative of Dolores.
But yeah, there's just a negative connotation around it. And clearly people still have the name.
we're all suffering on cgl.
>>9082067
Ngl after being involved in the fashion for years, putting up with bid wars, custom fees, currency fluctuations, impractical layers of frills and lace, skull-squeezing headbands, unwanted attention in public, et al, I think this original meaning of the name is very fitting for the fashion. You really do have to genuinely love it to enjoy it.
I thought the spelling for Lolita fashion and lolita complex were different in japanese?
>>9081908
Man, I wish some other name had caught on. But I have no idea what people would name it that wouldn't get yelled at for "IT'S NOT A COSTUME!1!" like Alice-kei
If you could wave a magic wand, what would everyone call lolita now?
>>9082091
Porcelain-kei or Carroll-kei. Heck, even Antoinette-kei.
>>9082055
I've found this interesting as well. How basically the west has different meanings of Japanese words. Like shota automatically meaning young boy porn in the west. Same with hentai = porn, instead of just pervert in nipponese.
>>9082099
These all sound way worse
>>9082099
Dolly-kei would've been nice too imo if it wasn't already taken.
>>9082091
I would want it to be called what I always say when anyone asks what it is: Modern Victorian.
Sort of like how aristocrat invokes the image of the clothing worn by aristocrats would be the same manner in which modern victorian simply invokes victorian fashion with a modern twist.
>>9082099
Marie-kei, maybe?
>>9081922
Ikr, I've far too many people who think that
The thread has actually gotten really interesting! I'm wondering if anyone has read Naomi by Junichiro Tanizaki? It's kind of the Japanese version of the book Lolita and actually pre-dates Nabokov's Lolita. If the person who coined term lolita fashion wanted it to be inspired by that kind of book, would they have chosen the name Naomi instead? I just thought that was interesting to think about. I'm not entirely sure how popular Nabokov's Lolita was at the time versus Naomi (or even when it was first translated into Japanese).
>>9082265
Just read through the Wikipedia blurb, and it doesn't sound that much like lolita outside of an educated man being obsessed with a younger woman.
I would not change the name. I think lolita is pretty name. Maybe ist is because i heard about the book lolita like couple years after i found the fashion.
>>9082277
I've seen a lot of comparisons of the two books. In Naomi, the main character Joji gets the young Naomi to live with him and grooms her to be his perfect bride. It starts out a lot like Lolita but in the end he's the one that ends up being used by her due to the fact he's in love with her.
>>9081915
>12 year old who toys with the literary scholar narrator
>entrances him and leads him to destruction
Even if you take the story at face value, he's the one who forces himself upon her every time. The reason he has to bribe her is because she starts refusing. Fuck this.
Facts are facts though, lolita is definitely named after the Japanese misconception. It's not a huge deal. It always amuses me to see people to deny it with no real argument.
>>9081379
I hate when people say go back to tumblr but based off your typing style and the way you reacted to 2 anonymous people disagreeing with your theory, "go back to tumblr". (just because it's your own personal theory doesn't mean it's devoid of criticism btw)
>>9082609
I've had to explain to people the difference between lolita fashion and the term lolita from the book, since people like to take it at face value and think lolita fashion is some fetishization of dressing up as a little girl so adult men think it's sexy. I've seen the lolicon threads before and I think those are way more damaging than anything relating to lolita since it's actual drawn sex with kids, but normies don't even know about lolicon, they just see lolita fashion and think it's immediately about sex cause of the book.
>>9082055
I've had to explain to people the difference between lolita fashion and the term lolita from the book, since people like to take it at face value and think lolita fashion is some fetishization of dressing up as a little girl so adult men think it's sexy. I've seen the lolicon threads before and I think those are way more damaging than anything relating to lolita since it's actual drawn sex with kids, but normies don't even know about lolicon, they just see lolita fashion and think it's immediately about sex cause of the book.
>>9081289
>http://egl.livejournal.com/18952560.html
holy shit op I think you might be onto something. we were doing a pedo fashion all along and had no idea. Oh god
>>9082338
...that's the twist in the movie. This board doesn't have spoilers... so... oh well..
>>9081347
Explain the outcry for modesty in the fashion? Especially so in the Western version of lolita compared to what the Japanese do.
>>9082609
I don't think anybody outright denies it, what they're denying is that the fashion is named after the book with the exact same interpretation (super sexy little girl who's down to fuccc)
Japan has a weird habit of taking other words and assigning them to a new context, like apartments being called "mansions", hair conditioner being "treatment", soda being "cider", stroller being "baby car", bathroom scale being "health meter", windshield being "front glass", sex doll being "Dutch wife". They even have a word for it -- 'wasei eigo'.
>>9082067
This should be our banner if we could choose one.
>>9082760
Aren't banner contests going on right now?
>>9082762
Yeah, but /cgl/ isn't one of the boards that's getting new banners.
>https://www.4chan.org/banner-contest
>3, i, po, gd, n
>cm, trv, wsr, news, p
>an, c, diy, out, w
>>9082026
I always thought it was Portuguese. And given that Portugal was one of the few countries Japan had contact with during their closed off years many Portuguese words and names were adapted into Japanese use.
>>9082265
I've read Naomi for a class, it's a good book. We compared it both to Lolita and to Genji (the Genji comparisons being the most discussed).
Fyeahlolita actually has an entire blog post on the subject of the origin of the name. Apparently a LOT of shift has happened in the usage of lolita complex and lolicon over the years. That shift and a healthy dose of wasei-eigo have contributed to the conflict with the name lolita and lolicon.
As far as the name Lolita for the fashion rather than Naomi, I think it might have to do with the 'feel' of the names; Lolita would feel more antique and cute-sounding (the -ita diminuitive), while even in the book much is made of how 'modern' sounding Naomi's name is.
I feel like Naomi would reflect the 'dark' side of lolita in some ways. Like Momoko she's selfish and manipulative, and only cares for self indulgence. She even spends excessive amounts on clothing.
And yet... Naomi's vision is focused on the 'new' and the 'modern' - personal sexual liberation, new fashion, travel - while Momoko is focused on a rose colored vision of the past. But they both use these focuses to pursue remarkably hedonistic lifestyles (which would go against the grain of Japanese society)
Sorry for the really rambling and poorly composed essay, I'm just blabbering.
>>9082080
They are.
>>9081289
At UtS there was a Japanese lady who talked about it a bit. I don't remember her name but she used to be editor of G&L Bible. She didn't explain why the word lolita was chosen, however considering it's Japan, it was probably just ''cool random foreign word''. From what I remember she said that at some point there was a famous child rapist/murderer, and people started to use the word ''lolita complex'', and that's why brands like ETC, Milk and JM distanced themselves from the word lolita. However later, Mana made it popular again to call the fashion lolita.
>>9082609
>Even if you take the story at face value, he's the one who forces himself upon her every time
Stop victim blaming. Clearly it was the poor guy who was seduced by that lecherous harlot.
>>9083743
I just remembered something else, she also talked about that lolita fashion took inspiration from European children and princesses or something, that's why you see a lot of teddy bear stuff and such. But she made it very clear that it's not adult women trying to BE children, and that if a child is wearing something in lolita style, it's not really be considered lolita fashion anymore. I hope I remember it right, I wish someone had filmed it..
>>9082026
The owner of the hair salon I go to is named Lolita as well. It's kinda disrespectful to these people to say that the name is unseperable from pedophilia.
>>9082157
Modern Victorian would be so lovely. It sounds so elegant and sophisticated. I would so love this name for it.
>>9083770
but that's not nearly as kawaii tho :/
>>9082663
1. Correlation =/= causation
2. Japanese people chose the name, seeing as the fashion originated in Japan, so whatever the west thinks of any of it means jack shit
3. Also in general this "women are being sexualized so they reclaim themselves through clothing" argument is a pretty western-specific reaction to a western-specific interpretation of an issue.
>>9083899
But if you read up on kawaii culture and lolita in general from japanese sources you will also see mentions that it was counter culture and women wanted to go against being sexy and catering to men and they wanted to spend money on themselves etc.
According to a book (can't remember which one, and don't feel like finding it in my stacks of books by my scanner. The author spoke at rufflecon.) the first mention of Lolita to describe the fashion was in the Sept 1987 issue of 流行通信 which is Number 284.
No joke, I'll give a $5 amazon gift card to anyone who can find it for sale (not sold out) and link me to it.
>>9082710
Yeah, I always thought it was a case of wasei eigo similar to how "feministo" for a long while didn't mean feminism but more along the lines of "chivalry". Like, part of the idea was there, but not really? And I figured lolita was similar, the idea of a cute, youthful aesthetic but lacking any other connotation.
I personally like the name lolita for the fashion, but the frequency with which people on the board talk about how much they wish they could change it makes me wonder if I'm in the minority.
>>9082157
Neo-Victorian is already a thing though, so that might be pretty confusing.
>>9083965
I like the name lolita because I think it sounds adorable, I just wish it didn't have the "seductive underage girl" connotation. I personally hate nymphet/ddlg shit but I hope they somehow manage to popularize a different term for that fetish while lolita fashion becomes popular enough in the West to be associated with weird frilly dresses instead of ephebophilia. It's not very realistic, but I can hope...
>>9083949
People keep saying this but I have yet to see an actual source that says women wore lolita to avoid sexualization.
>>9084007
@4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwnmGod0OqM
I didn't know the name lolita had pedo connotations, until I read it in the sidebar of a lolita group on Facebook. I know several people named Dolores and Dolors who use or have used it as a nickname. There's also a shop called Lolita in my village (it sells normie clothes). But I live in Spain so..
>>9083996
Same! And I hate that in Japan they have this neo lolita thing going on now with the word lolita on cropped shirts etc. Why do they have to take the word of an already existing fashion and use it for a totally different style?
>>9084042
This is an American source, so it's worthless in this context. I probably should have specified a JAPANESE source, seeing as we're talking about why the name was chosen, but I thought it would have been obvious enough.
>>9082157
Modern Victorian is a perfectly fine way to describe your Victorian Maiden wardrobe. If you wear Angelic Pretty, not so much. Anyone wanting to avoid the word lolita can describe it in context of what they actually wear--modern Victorian, modern Rococo, Victorian doll, dolly, Alice in Wonderland inspired, Anne of Green Gables inspired, whatever.
>>9084057
It would be one thing if they weren't aware that there was already a fashion style called lolita and got the name from the book (because yeah, "neo-lolita" actually is very nymphetty) but one of the most influential people using the tag is RinRin so, uh. Tbh I never really liked her as a model and this actually makes me annoyed at her.
>>9083743
I really wonder if it was entirely selected as a random foreign name that sounded pretty to Japanese ears, though.
Artsy types like to select words with verboten or titillating connotations to bring more press to their art. Stefani was a great musician before she took on the name and image of Lady Gaga. The paying public certainly didn't pay attention to her talent alone back when she was known as Stefani.
Also, a lot of fashion designers have made cocktail dresses inspired by lingerie and BDSM gear.
I guess my point is, if it turns out the book was the inspiration for the name — who cares? It's not the death kneel of the fashion. All we need to do is redefine it, by normalizing it: continuing to wear it out in the public eye, and show that it is a distinct fashion. If tourists or normies keep asking over and over whether it has anything to do with the book, we just have to reply in all honesty, "Nobody really knows why on the name," or "It's just a fashion," every single time. Interact with the public — ask them "would you like a picture?" or "please ask before taking a photo" when they're sneaking a photo — be brief, but polite. Shut creeps down, and kick them out of comms hard if they try to enter for the wrong reasons.
Goths were originally known as a particular tribe that raided. Then "gothic" was used as a name for a particular style of architecture (by an art historian who dubbed it thus because it looked "tribal" and "wild" compared to the Romanesque architecture that he preferred for its more "civilized" feel). And now in popular culture, the term "gothic" is associated with a dark, sometimes morbid aesthetic.
Punk is now more known as a fashion than any particular anarchist movement in Britain — to the chagrin of some older members of the punk movement, who call Vivianne Westwood a talentless hack and a sellout.
>>9083899
>so whatever the west thinks of any of it means jack shit
I've never seen this on /cgl/ before. Usually when someone isn't wearing a blouse, like Risa did recently, everyone on here starts proclaiming that it doesn't matter what the Japanese are doing with the fashion they created.
Like which is it and why does the western version of this fashion have more dumb made up rule shit than the original fashion?
>>9084098
Because there were too many ita's in skater dresses posting on egl, the rules had to be made. New lolita's should stick to the rules in the beginning but once you know what lolita is, it's fine to ignore the rules. Only on cgl people freak out if you ''break the rules''.
>>9084098
It seems like we're having two separate conversations here. I was talking specifically about the reason why lolita fashion was named lolita in the first place, whereas you're talking about something more along the lines of who defines what the fashion looks like.
>>9084097
Probably because Gwen Stefani was first? I mean I know lady Gaga was a songwriter for a long time, and people have similar names but if that is what she went by as a songwriter, I can totally see why she was overlooked until she changed her image and started singing.
>>9084147
That's what the thread is about but I did bring up something else when I was asking about the outcry for modesty, especially here.
I got my answer tho so it's ok, we can drop it.
>>9082661
Didn't realize you had to worry about spoilers for books written in the 1920s
>>9084066
When I have more time I'll find the specific book I'm talking about for you, but if you google "Japanese kawaii revolution" you can find a lot of information about it.
>>9084189
I was talking about the movies. Which differs from the book.
>>9084149
uhhh Gaga's legal name is Stephanie Germanotta or something. you got really thrown off by the other anon spelling it 'Stefani'
>>9082091
Princess-kei. I do like Alice-kei too, though.
>>9084796
Princess kei sounds stupid also the Japanese word, hime is a gyaru style. Alice kei also sounds stupid. Tagging kei on the end of any western word is going to sound like some try-hard tumblr shit imo.
>>9082091
Maybe "modern classical"? (As in "modern classical fashion".) It's not as specific as something like 'neo-Victorian' and doesn't necessarily exclude sweet from the equation, since sweet has some historical basis. It sounds kind of awkward though, more of a descriptor than an actual term - I could imagine people asking "Okay yes, but what is it /called/?"
>>9081908
What's wrong with the other names that are already in use, like gothloli or egl?
>>9084904
I agree I hate ___-kei it sounds stupid as shit.
>>9084057
Because THAT is based on the book
>>9085004
You could shorten it to "mod class" to make it less of a mouthful, but I'm not sure if that sounds weird
>>9085564
Mod class sounds too sixties.
Something referencing southern belles could be cool, since they would be a recognizable historical influence. Neo-belle? IDK I'm tired
>>9084477
no she didn't, read the damn comment again she is talking about two different people. jesus do grade schools not give a shit about reading comprehension anymore?
>>9083949
so you need someone to literally spell it out for you to accept it? trust your own deductive ability and just look at old school street snaps. the cold poses; the solemn/combative bitchface is basically an accessory. I absolutely believe that lolita began as an aggressively reactive fashion, to show that femininity and sexual availability are mutually exclusive things. doll-like and extremely alienating, and that is what attracted me to it.
on another note, I think the pedo confusion is further confounded in the west by the fact that only our children's clothing has maintained European aristocratic fashion roots, and people are forced to associate ruffles, scalloped hems, poofy bottom-wear and the like with young children.
the fashion takes almost everything from 17th-18th century western European trends (but notably not the exaggerated cleavage) as inspo, achieving both extravagance and modesty. aside from lolita reviving those old trends, the only fashion that consistently pumps out clothing of a similar style is children's fashion. I think this is because children's wear became such a big deal in the rococo and victorian periods--well-to-do children were dressed in miniature versions of the upperclass adult wear, complete with all the gilding and ruffles.
>>9085753
(cont.)
this novelty never wore off, especially in the west, where babies are dressed as royalty because caretakers dote on them/are essentially their servants, and also as kind of a cute joke playing off the fact that young kids are bottom-heavy due to diapers/wiggly postures/not yet walking well. in a world where pettis haven't been normie for maybe 2 centuries, pumpkin pants and poofy tiered skirts stayed around for young kids who require roomy bottom-wear.
It is our own fault that ruffles, bloomers, copious amounts of bows etc. are relegated to the 12 and unders. It's actually really fucking backwards (according to fashion history) that kids are the only people who are accepted to be adorned with impractical amounts of ruching and lace. I guess since nations are more connected and global-minded, international couture brands are common knowledge, and we can tell who has money by the logos and labels, and no longer by the amount/color/type of material they are wearing.
>>9084904
Jfashions were tagged with kei long before tumblr even existed, honey.
Also, all Jfashion is now tumblr as fuck.
>>9085753
I agree with this 100%! The thing that has always struck me about old school (even sweet) is the very haughty, cold "Yes I'm beautiful, but not for you" aura. Like 'look, but don't touch.'
Huge platform heels or rocking-horse shoes, intimidating poofy skirt, dark lipstick and angry eyebrows for gothic, vacant feminine eyes and disinterested demeanor for sweet, large clunky parasols, etc.
Even the just in terms of the space the fashion takes up, in Japan where everybody is packed together like sardines it's kind of a "Fuck you, you're going to deal with my petticoat and parasol whether you like it or not. Try not to knock my headbow out of place, while you're at it."
![Re-Ri Old Fashion - 2009-9-1 - black [# 212121] - house_tuuro01.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/pDC9sBz.jpg "Re-Ri Old Fashion - 2009-9-1 - black [# 212121] - house_tuuro01.jpg")
>>9085753
Thank you so much, I didn't have the energy to write something similar.
>>9086471
It may be that modern Lolita is so different from old school, people have forgotten about this, or that new Lolitas never had exposure to it. Their body language said a lot too. I miss the deadpan expressions Lolitas use to wear for snaps. "sweet, but poisonous." "Look, but don't touch." "I look like a princess but have the power of a king." That's always the feeling it gave me, and I loved it. I love the cute, sweet poses and photos too, but I'm sad the "sweet, but poisonous if eaten" attitude is extinct.
>>9086598
Ah, that said, Lolita evolved from natural kei type fashions, but of course as it evolved it became it's own thing. So, originally pre-Lolita Lolita fashion did not have has this attitude, but it certainly evolved into it as time went on and the fashion gained a solid identity. I would do some digging and reading and have a good ol Lolita culture/history rant like they used to back in the day, but I don't feel well and really don't have the energy. (honestly haven't been feeling the energy for discussing things on cgl anymore in general, hate putting the time in for it to just disappear) I find the topic to be super fascinating though.
An Anon once posted links to a really interesting article on the origins of Kawaii culture in the Lolita General. It didn't offer much insight into the name but was still a fascinating insight into how Japan became obsessed with cute childlike things.
![Re-Ri Old Fashion - 2009-5-15 - sky blue [# 898BDDE] - niji_alice_humpty1.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SxwuW67.jpg "Re-Ri Old Fashion - 2009-5-15 - sky blue [# 898BDDE] - niji_alice_humpty1.jpg")
>>9087317
Ha ha, that may have possibly been me. Though I'm sure there's other anons here who have posted it as well at some point. Sorry I don't really feel like digging it back up right now.
>>9082091
It isn't that I don't like the word Lolita, but between the western confusion and the fact the name is pretty unrelated to the actual style, I would have preferred it was called something else. I prefer to avoid the word "Lolita" around most people.
I'm okay with "modern Victorian" and I've used it before when avoiding he name, but it's a mouthful, and Lolita also takes influence from other historical fashion trends too so it isn't always accurate.
I actually like the name Alice-style. It's dolly sounding like Lolita is, and has a more obvious connection than Lolita does. Alice has always been a staple influence in the fashion. Actually, I swear I remember reading that (but I'm not sure how true it is) there were people who were referring to it as "Alice style" for a short period of time. It would be less awkward to say, "Oh, it's inspired by historical Victorian fashion, like what Alice wore," than how awkward the word "Lolita" is for western culture. Its a real shame that such a pretty name has such an awful and ignorant stigma attached to it.
I would have liked dolly-style too, and it also makes a lot of sense because the fashion was also heavily influenced by the idea of looking like a Victorian doll.
I love quaintrelle a lot, and think the word is probably the most perfect name Lolita could have had.
When someone asks me what I'm wearing, I usually just say it's a fashion from Japan. But the times that I've called it lolita I've never had a bad reaction. No one has ever mentioned the book or movie to me neither.
It would be interesting to know if that book was very popular in Japan when the fashion started.
>>9082156
And Dolly Kei should've been named Grimm Kei or Fairytale Kei.
>>9090056
>quaintrelle
This is perfect. If I knew how to pronounce it correctly, I'd use it from now on.
>>9084081
>Tfw you'll never be modern victorian because vm doesn't fit.
It's such an elegant style I love that isn't over the top, it's so natural looking and nothing else really excites me, I can only try to come close with other brand pieces that are chilled out.
>>9090363
Quain like train
Trelle like bell
>>9081289
I do wonder if it once did or didn't have the association, I used to be more curious but unless I could ask in person, Mana, Novala or someone who is from back then and really know I can get a true answer, (not just polite one they think I want to hear), I think we will never know. Misako lists Nabokov's Lolita in he bibliography/reference section of her style book, so that is the only direct reference I have seen.
Caring what people will think if I tell them I'm wearing gothic lolita? Not so much because they understand the fancy gothic dolly part easily right away and since I'm obviously a well dressed adult, don't really give the side-eye over the lolita part of the name at all.
I had someone ask me if I was steampunk once, even all dressed in a black coord with a Lolita coat and parasol so the Victorian association seems clear to some casual onlookers.
>all these older men temptresses in denial
>>9093333
That's funny you say this even in jest because for so many western men (and I assume other cultures?) gothic and classic lolita are pretty much considered something of a boner-killer.
THAT I have indeed been told.
I'm not really sure what men think of sweet substyle at all but I've seen women give it the stink-eye.
It made me laugh though.
>>9093342
It's funny (and sometimes infuriating) how many men think that every single thing a woman does is to attract their attention. I recently had a conversation with a friend of my husband who kindly tried to inform me that men don't care about shoes, so there's no reason for me to own more than one pair of shoes. I tried to explain that I collect shoes (and other clothing) because I like them, not to be more attractive to men. He refused to believe it, and pretty much concluded that I'm just a silly misinformed woman who doesn't understand what men like.
If I wanted male attention I'd just wear a pushup bra and bend over a lot, not spend thousands of dollars on imported frilly Japanese clothes to hang out in groups of almost exclusively other women...
>>9082130
> Like shota automatically meaning young boy porn in the west.
I know like three or four boys called Shota through my uni's language school, and three quarters of the Japanese girls I know are called Yuri. It's really weird having to undo the associations with those words.
I remember having a huge discussion on a facebook page once and no matter how many direct japanese sources I quoted people would constantly deny whatever I said by using stuff like the english wikipedia as a reference.
>>9093362
>tfw almost everything I do is to get attention
its a terrible confession but I really do almost constantly think about how to draw the most attention to my outfit and character. But then it's more of a passion/hobby than anything so it doesn't bother me, i just love my clothes and the way they make me feel and it helps me be more like what i want. ive never met a guy who came close to understanding but my wife and some friends do
I just randomly thought that it could be shortened to Lita. Then you could say "this is sweet-Lita fashion" or whichever substyle.
Another thing it could be is Lalita, found this post on egl saying lolita is derived from the sanskrit word Lalita:
http://egl.livejournal.com/6291363.html
>>9082265
You wouldn't happen to be the one anon who replied to my small observation about moga (mo gal?) some time ago? I wonder if that has any relevance here.
>>9093781
Lolita fashion has many childish themes like teddy bears, fairytales etc. So I don't think it's a coincidence. But the word did not have a negative meaning in Japan until a serial killer was said to have a lolita complex because he killed young girls. This was in the 80s and Japanese lolita's have said that this is why old brands like Jane Marple didn't want to be associated with the word lolita anymore.
>>9093669
Sounds like there is actually some merit to the fact that the word was pulled from the novel for the fashion, or has to do with the other Japanese novel that anon mentioned.
But people are trying to bury that shit because it would be easier to just convince every new stranger on the street that no, they have nothing to do with each other.
Hence trying to change the connotation of the word.
>>9093874
Yeah but Lolita from the book and the films, doesn't do any of those things. She dresses sexy and acts like an adult.
Also people should address the films more because they are actually more well known. Especially for the way she appears on screen.
>>9094152
Oh, I didn't watch the movie or read the book so I just based it off of my image from what I've heard about it, I guess is wrong. But it's a childish name, at least normally an adult would not be called Lolita. And I think that makes it suitable for this fashion, not just ''cute random foreign word!''.
I'm Spanish, and my name is "Dolores", so people (friends) call me Lola or Lolita.
I moved to Germany with my boyfriend 3 years ago and started working there.
People at work know me as Dolores.
Last christmas, me and my coworkers had a dinner, and during the night my boyfriend called me "Lolita" a couple times in a Spanish conversation between the two of us.
Since then, I have a weird weeb coworker stalking me because "She is also a Lolita".
Fucking hell.
>>9096363
Yeah, the stuff she wears in the films, the original and the remake, is a lot more larme.
I was very very surprised to see people here enjoying larme. It plays right into the nymphet look, and focuses on being cute but also mature.
