Now, hear me out. This isn't a "baww bloobloo why are all Lolitas meanines??!!" thread, but something of a survey-discussion.
>Why do you think people get wound up over little things? eg. nitpick coords,
>Why do you think many people are jealous rather than supportive towards known Lolitas? (in the context of those with good coording skills, good blogging skills etc, excluding infamy)
>Do you think Lolita attracts people who are jealous, or do you think the community cultivates jealousy?
>Do you think that the price of the fashion affects this? Has the affordability of the fashion in recent times (taobao alternatives, etc) changed this at all?
>If you have been to different region/countries for Lolita events/meetups, which were the most welcoming and least "fake"? How so? And vice versa?
>Have you contributed to a discussion in which someone was being unfairly criticised for something insignificant, or for no reason at all?
>Are there any restrictions within your community about posting on /cgl/?
>>8703698
Three words:
Fashion
Women
Internet
The only reasons why this hobby is so salty.
Fashion is such a vain and superficial hobby, it's only about who looks best and how much money you are willing to spend. How could it NOT be full of cattiness.
Wherever a bunch of girls/women flog together there is drama and chit-chat, this counts for every other hobby or job. I worked in many jobs and know other galpals that have worked in all-women jobs and it's always the same. I guess it's some social thing that we learned when growing up, girls are prone to drama-mongering.
The internet, especially anon-boards contribute to the catty behavior and lolita has a biiig online aspect. I'm guilty of this, I would never say rude things about someone in their face, but I can easily rip apart someone's coord or shitty behavior on 4chan where I'm safely lying on my bad and never have to face any consequences. I also think people who are self-conscious (like me) easily take apart others behind their screen. I noticed when I'm feeling good about myself I don't feel the need to hate on someone else (unless they did something enraging like Kate with her new cat).
>>8703741
>Three words:
>Fashion
>Women
>Internet
Not true. I've been in other fashion communities where there is very little to none of what I've seen in Lolita. Not demonising the Lolita community or anything, but I've heard the same from others in goth and rockabilly communities.
>>8703745
My boyfriend's mum is in goth, steampunk and some other fashions and I'm into some high fashion brands and even though it's nowhere as bad there definitely is some catty behavior. Lolita has some strict rules, so it's not as easy to brush something off as "it's her style", but there definitely is a harsh tone in other fashions as well.
>>8703745
Seconding what >>8703752 has said, I've seen it in other jfashion too, mainly because I suppose it hasn't grown up naturally in the West and there are a lot of rules whereas other fashions you can get away with a lot more. I'm a fatty-chan who also wears rockabilly and there's a lot less negativity there because I feel like there are a lot of fat girls who aren't as competitive just because they already know they're not winning any competitions. Something about jfashion being jfashion and not a style that's grown up around us has made the communities over here more catty, I think.
>>8703741
Whats the Japanese lolita scene like? I get this feeling like the cattiness and bitchiness is purely a western thing.
questions are very one-sided and assume people are jealous/envious
If people don't like your coord, they can get salty about it, and the anon state helps to get salty and throw wordy comments on anything.
is fun, and power-trippy
>>8703745
A bunch of my friends are goth and their community is 10x worse than lolita could ever be. I'm talking about theft of property, rape accusations, cheating, etc. Crazy shit. I don't think you can compare the two, honestly. Goth is so much bigger and less centralized than lolita. There's also more variety in age and gender, less emphasis on brand clothing and more emphasis on lifestyle.
Personally I think lolita attracts a good deal of people who are emotionally immature and self-centered, which leads to envy and blowing petty things out of proportion. It's also much more of a collectors hobby than most fashions. My local community is actually really chill. Most drama comes from younger girls who really don't have anything going on in their lives other than lolita so that who wears what seems like a much bigger deal that it really is. The older girls who have careers and families don't have nearly as much time for that nonsense.
>>8703765
Japanese people can actually be extremely catty and gossipy and value brand loyalty ("brandwhores") much more than we do in the west. They just keep it to themselves more.
>>8703765
>I get this feeling like the cattiness and bitchiness is purely a western thing.
Have you ever heard of 2chan? Or read some of the caps/translations that ChineseGossip used to post? Asian Lolitas are just as rutheless as the Western community, just less to your face and more talking behind your back.
Imagine trying to justify replicas to the Japanese Lolita community. I can also imgine they're much less forgiving towards chubby/fat people, and have even higher standards than Western people.
>>8703741
This is such a cliche. Boys have as much bullshit drama as girls do, maybe on some other level sometimes but I hate the "Duh women are just catty and bitchy!!!1"-mentality. Take a look at /a/ or /fa/ and their autism. Or take a look at the male gaming community. Everyone has drama, regardless of gender.
However I do agree about the Fashion/suferficial aspect of Lolita especially, since clothes are the main focus and you don't need any special lifestyle.
>>8703698
Because they're women.
>>8703806
>Boys have as much bullshit drama as girls do
I didn't want to say they have less drama, but the way they handle it seems different in my experience. Like I never really experienced this "Talking shit behind their back and being super nice and freindly in person" attitude with my male coworkers. They always seemed much more open about their hate or beef with someone else.
>>8703812
Probably has something to do with the way guys and gals are socialized differently, what a shock.
Also OP if you want to see catty petty shit from dudes just go start a Rei vs Asuka thread on /a/. It's less a guy or girl thing and more a young person anonymous on the internet thing.
>>8703812
>Like I never really experienced this "Talking shit behind their back and being super nice and freindly in person" attitude with my male coworkers. They always seemed much more open about their hate or beef with someone else.
Probably because dudes can get away with more than women can. Imagine a woman being more openly hostile or even slightly unfriendly, she'd get labeled an unfriendly haggard bitch within two seconds. While with dudes it seems to be more acceptable to express a certain level of dislike, even in a professional setting.
>>8703813
>Also OP if you want to see catty petty shit from dudes just go start a Rei vs Asuka thread on /a/. It's less a guy or girl thing and more a young person anonymous on the internet thing.
This so much.
It attracts a lot of people who have little to no idea what they're doing with themselves but think they're all grown up and mature for dumping hundreds of dollars on dresses. These people genuinely think that their hobby takes skill when in reality it's just putting on clothes but they still think they're hot shit for it. It's the only "talent" they have so if they're not the best or if they aren't consistently buying new pieces they probably get massive anxiety and/or depression and feel like they have nothing. That's my theory anyway.
>>8703813
>Also OP if you want to see catty petty shit from dudes just go start a Rei vs Asuka thread on /a/
That's more of a casual shit talking than legitimate animosity. Guys can talk the nastiest shit about each other's taste in anime, video games, music, whatever. But beneath it all the shit talking, they can still become good friends because they share a common interest regardless of their differing opinions. The lolita community though, the saltiness seems to be on a personal level. Like, a guy will talk shit about your clothes, a lolita will talk shit about you, not the dresses you wear, but you as a human being.
I'm pretty sure internalized misogyny has a lot to do with it. I always judged girls who were more beautiful and succesful than me, and we all competed for the attention of the only 2 guys in my college.
I later found out I'm a lesbian and am still unlearning some harmful behaviour now.
>>8703815
I agree with this so much. My brother has straight out said "I don't like you'' to colleagues and family friends and people just laugh it off. If I did that I would be starting drama.
>>8703698
Honestly, I think it's because there's really nothing else to do in subculture/hobby. Punks are usually more interested in the music more than the fashion. They can go to shows with their friends, pick up an instrument and start their own band. Goths have literature and Tim Burton films to fawn over as well industrial concerts and dance clubs. Steampunk has costuming and literature I guess. They all have proactive shit you can do. What else is there to do as a lolita besides buying a dress and meeting up with other lolitas for tea?
>>8703842
This is actually the best point I've heard in a long time. I feel like the waning of the subculture element has contributed to this hugely.
>Why do you think people get wound up over little things? eg. nitpick coords,
People care too much about what other people do and put high expectations on everyone else. You can't change other people, or make other people do what you want them to do. It's a waste of time and energy to place your own expectations on others.
>Why do you think many people are jealous rather than supportive towards known Lolitas? (in the context of those with good coording skills, good blogging skills etc, excluding infamy)
I find most of the time, people tend to be rather hateful at first, but as they become used to the person's presence, they chill out. Case in point with Cadney and Lor. I don't know if the hype over others who shall not be named will ever die down, and that's probably because they are always saying or doing something that makes everyone flip. Mostly, when you put yourself out there, you're opening yourself up to criticism.
>Do you think Lolita attracts people who are jealous, or do you think the community cultivates jealousy?
Lots of young girls. Lots of young neet girls without money or decent jobs that allow for saving something (or spend all their money on anime). Bawww ruining my dream dress. Save your money and coord it to your liking. JFC.
>Do you think that the price of the fashion affects this? Has the affordability of the fashion in recent times (taobao alternatives, etc) changed this at all?
A little bit. Things are more affordable now that the yen is low. There's a lot of good cheaper alternatives to Bodyline. Coveted prints are now more affordable as they're a few years old now.
>Have you contributed to a discussion in which someone was being unfairly criticised for something insignificant, or for no reason at all?
Pretty much all of /cgl/
>Are there any restrictions within your community about posting on /cgl/?
All of the mods are on here. Most of the members are. We don't care. Just don't stir shit or namedrop.
>>8703842
Knitting, drawing, making clothes and accessoires, going to a musuem, there is soo soo much to do as a lifestyler. I don't think we have less than Goths, our interests are just more historical/girly.
>>8703857
But none of those are lolita-specific and many people who are into lolita aren't into any of those things. Most of them are also solitary. Very different from the concerts/clubbing and literature that are so ingrained in many other subcultures.
I personally love the things you mentioned but all my attempts at organizing meetups surrounding those interests (except museums) have been either shot down or been very poorly attended by my 300+ strong local lolita community. Can you really consider these things true lolita lifestyle elements when so few people in the fashion are interested in doing them?
>>8703868
But I'm also into Tim Burton and goth literature without ever having a goth scene. Technically none of these things are lolita-specific or goth-specific.
Also, lifestyle died down some years ago. Back then it was a lot more common to have those hobbies that are lolita-esque. Wearing frilly dresses was simply part of a dolly girly lifestyle.
>>8703698
The stereotype of the Western lolita is that she is angry, mean, and ruthless, and will lie, cheat, and steal to get what she wants. And all of it is true. Lolita, perhaps due to the strict rules and structure, has far more drama than other fashions, Japanese or western. I think it's due to the fact that the rules are so clear cut (which i like a lot by the way, it makes it easy to make sure my coords are in fact, lolita). You can't just excuse bad coords or things that are not lolita as "its her take on it" but instead they become ita and amateur. And people not taking concrit and not following the rules are the main causes of drama
>Do you think that the price of the fashion affects this? Has the affordability of the fashion in recent times (taobao alternatives, etc) changed this at all?
I feel like the increased distance between the low-end and high-end options within lolita fashion has actually made the saltiness a bit worse. Taobao brands have made it easier to start wearing the fashion, but the price on second-hand "dream dresses" and Baby's MTO showpiece items has gone way up as well.
As a result, you get more people who are able to actually start wearing the fashion, but can't afford to acquire the iconic dresses they really want. They've increased their connection to the community but the top-tier status items are even farther out of reach, which leads to increased frustration and thus salty behavior towards those who own those items or have the popularity which people think will come along with owning those items.
>>8703842
>>8703857
Actually, I think that it is because there is too many options to being a lifestyle that makes the lifestyle seem all the more optional. No one can decide on one or maybe two things that is definitely apart of Lolita culture. Punk has music, and the fashion follows along. Same for Steampunk & Goth. But, as long as Lolita has fashion first and the rest is all a shrug, then the lifestyle is going to be downplayed and the fashion more open to cattiness.
Hmmm... I don't know if it's really all that salty when someone nitpicks a coord respectfully. I'd say it's rather more analytical.
Saying "I'd change this and this, for this reason" or "I would have preferred brown shoes instead of pink ones with this coord to balance the colorscheme" is not mean or salty in my opinion.
Analyzing coords of others, and your own, can definitely help you improve.
I do feel some people get offended too easily.
But yes, we do have quite few "nitpicks" and ita thread posts by people that are actually more like unsubtle (salty) digs at a person rather than the coord itself. Not fond of that, to be honest.
People feel safe posting under a anonymous account and they can probably say all the horrible mean things they want without it tarnishing their reputation.
And I'm not sure if it's really jealousy when someone dislikes a "known" Lolita.
Sometimes it about their behavior and personality.
Don't really dislike anyone, but that's because I don't really spend that much time participating in comms except for cgl.
But yeah, sometimes people make me do a facepalm.
Don't really care if someone buys brand or indie. If the coord is good it doesn't matter.
I prefer buying brand, and sadly, people that confess liking brand more, often get called elitist which isn't even entirely true or fair in most cases.
Calling someone elitist because they like brand, or can afford more than you is really salty. Calling someone on a budget with an all BL or TB wardrobe ita is also salty as hell.
I don't think any less of someone that has an all Bodyline or Taobao wardrobe.
All in all, mean people are going to be mean no matter what fashion or community they are in. It's their personality.
Personally, I don't think the Lolita community is all that intolerant as some people portray it as. The American comms seem more drama-prone than the European ones so maybe this has also influenced my opinion as Eurofag.
All you people saying goths aren't as catty as lolitas have never hung around actual goths before. Jfc, my scene had a girl publicly trash another girl for wearing the same eyeliner style. People actually took sides on the issue and it caused a huge rift. Over eyeliner.
I think it's less that entire communities are bitches, it's just that the few girls who are, are the loudest and give the biggest impression. It's also hard not to get dragged into drama when someone accuses you of something, even if you didn't do it or you'd never start drama on your own. One person leaving a mean secret is enough to start an entire witch-hunt within a comm, with speculation and suspicion of who did it, why they did it, etc. Suddenly everybody thinks someone did it, that someone gets ostracized, they get salty and start more shit about how mean the comm is, repeat forever.
For example, my comm has always been pretty drama free, we're all adults who have our own lives and meet casually sometimes. Until one girl, who has aspergers and is disliked quietly by a few in our comm, gets a really hateful secret about her. Suddenly the shitstorm was insane, the girl was incredibly hurt and some people took her side, and people got more and more suspicious and gossiped about who they thought made the secret. The people who had an aversion to the girl were mostly quiet, some even spoke amongst themselves that the girl deserved it, and I think one of them made the secret, but it never got out who it was. All in all, things went from calm and quiet to total shitstorm with one secret from one bitter person.
To be fair, there are a bunch of well-known lolitas with stellar, jealousy-inducing wardrobes who get little to no salt thrown their way. People like Arthael, Angel, Xylia, Josine, Ashley, Siriusc, etc are able to post without generating backlash.
To me, a more useful question is: Why do some people get deluged with salt while others are relatively immune?
>>8703812
I actually have seen guys do that work, fake niceness and everything. There's about an even ratio of males and females but surprisingly the guys talk more shit!
>>8703944
People who are loud about personal vendettas will attract people who want to know the deets of what's going on. If someone causes a small bit of drama and there's at least one person bitching and moaning and namedropping on here, I'll immediately get invested and try to follow the drama even if I have no idea who it is. I'm not even a lolita (into nanchatte and gyaru) but I follow some lolita threads for the drama because I have none in my own life and I think it's fun to read, and I'm pretty sure there are more people like me who aren't even that into lolita that just want someone shitty to cling onto for a laugh.
>>8703944
I agree. I love seeying their coords and wardrobe posts.
Some of them have many of my dream items but I have no animosity towards them. I can be happy for other when they own something I really want, no need to be jealous.
I don't know wht some people get salt and others not though.
I also do wonder, are the ones that are acting so salty and have vendettas very young? Like under 20? Are they just immature and acting stupid?
Or do older people do this too?
>>8703932
Or all those billion threads about what is or what is not, where people write billion times "It's a music and lifestyle thing" and then scream at you when you don't dress like the stereotype.
>>8703842
Very interesting point actually! I would assume that people want to be involved in the lolita community but unlike other subcultures don't have as much to focus on besides drama once you get past the clothes aspect so therefore it just kind of naturally happens.
People always want to be engaged with their subculture and when there isn't as much to cling to people get bored and gossipy.
>>8704032
Lolita drama is so minimal compared to what goes on with goths, it's really cute that people think lolita drama is particularly unique or bad. Maybe American goths are different?
Even in the music, you have guys in the bigger bands flouncing and shittalking each other all the time on Facebook. Hell, it goes back to the 80s. The whole Tim Burton and literature thing is such a minimal part of what it means to be part of the goth scene. I don't know how anyone could be a goth and not know about this.
>>8703806
B-but that's wrong. I would say that women are driven to making others accountable and can't accept others incompetence. Men on the other hand have no problem letting others fuck up and will laugh about it. This is just an observation from being in both male dominated communities and female.
>>8704233
Do most goths even like Tim Burton anymore? Maybe his oldschool stuff but his new stuff is absolute garbage.
>>8704932
I can't speak for the community as a whole but from what I know, Burton was always more for "babybats" than for "real goths". At this point I wouldn't be surprised if liking anything by Tim Burton just gets you labeled a poser.
>>8705034
>At this point I wouldn't be surprised if liking anything by Tim Burton just gets you labeled a poser
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. The film crowd laughs at him these days.
