Are any of you vegans here? If so, what made you go vegan and how long have you been vegan?
I've been vegan over 6 years and went vegan because of this: http://theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/animals
https://youtu.be/9cJAUdYKnp4
I don't understand going vegan just because of factory farming cruelty.
I mean, there are pretty humane meat sources out there if you don't mind doing a little research and paying a bit more.
I eat meat, but mostly avoid anything but fish and sometimes chicken. Just out of personal diet preference. As soon as I move I'm intending to raise chickens for eggs and stuff because they taste better and fuck most egg farms.
>>2145760
Pls respond. I'm incredibly lonely right now and need vegans to talk to.
>>2145763
omg so precious. Thank you for sharing this, it just improved my mood by like 5000 percent
>>2145764
Even "Certified Humane" farms severely abuse animals. That link in the OP explains it.
I have made about 3 serious attempts to switch to a vegan diet, ultimately failing each time. Longest I lasted was 3 months.
I struggled to learn new recipes and keep it tasty and nutritious without being overly expensive.
I do eat less meat and dairy, that's easy. But full vegan is pretty tough. I have a sister who is vegan but she struggles with her health a bit, also she doesn't have the same high-energy diet as I need. I exercise a lot and she doesn't, and I struggle to find a good vegan source of protein.
Don't hate a guy for trying, I'd love some tips, meights.
Why bother? It's doesnt help anything but your ego. Just stop buying shitty processes factory meat and you'll be helping the environment and your body
>>2145770
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xzSdFUIoC0
There are a lot of awesome recipes here:
http://theradicalvegan.tumblr.com/
And there are so many convenience foods that are vegan. Just start reading labels. It gets easier and easier as you go.
I'm personally not concerned with protein at all, but cheap, good sources are: tofu, beans, grains, green vegetables, peanut butter, nuts in general, seeds.
And you can buy cheap vegan protein from here: https://truenutrition.com/vegan-formulas.aspx
And I always look for stuff on sale. Use coupons, etc. Growing your own food can help with costs as well.
>>2145772
See: >>2145769
It does nothing for my ego... That's your ego and defensiveness talking.
It helps with everything. Click each page on the link in the OP if you want to learn how.
Plus it's tasty and super easy in my opinion.
>>2145777
Thanks for giving me advice, I appreciate it.
>>2145793
You're very welcome.
Vegans should be gassed
>>2145800
What makes you say that?
>>2145801
Low IQ and an inability for introspection.
>>2145801
>>2145800
Not him, but I'll try to explain.
I'm the dude who has tried, btw, and I have like 6 vegan friends alongside many who aren't haha.
There is an opinion that vegans are overly preachy and, I suppose, hipsterish. They cannot associate with non-vegans without at least mentioning their veganism.
I'm a fence sitter on this. Many social gatherings involve food and so naturally it may come up when it's time to order.
A lot of the hate for vegans comes from people feeling like their morals and ethics are being questioned when all they are doing is eating the same food they were raised on.
Personally, I don't mind vegans at all. Sometimes they take it too far (my sister does, sometimes), and it interferes in their life to an illogical degree.
My goal is to be vegetarian or vegan for 90% of my meals eventually. Anything I hunt and kill myself is fair game, however. And if I am visiting a friend or relative, I will always just eat what they've offered.
I regularly eat dinner with my aunt and uncle, who always spend a lot of money on their meals, and it's a special occasion each time. It's all local produce and meat forms a big part of that. I'll always partake in that kind of context.
>tl;dr, don't be too preachy I guess, but you're still doing a good thing IMO
>>2145804
>Sometimes they take it too far (my sister does, sometimes), and it interferes in their life to an illogical degree.
Examples:
>sister won't eat anything that has been remotely in touch with meat
>eg won't eat vegetables cooked on a BBQ which has had meat on it at some point
>this choice does not contribute to animal welfare at all
Another time:
>dinner at my bro's
>'taco pizzas'
>taco/mexican toppings on pizzas
>really fucking delicious, it turns out
>brother and sister work together to make vegan version of pizza (actually it was pretty fucking good)
>oh shit we forgot sour cream (sis just won't add it, obviously) and something else I can't recall
>me an sis drive to nearby shops to buy
>I get distracted by gift shopping, send sis on ahead, she only has to grab 2 things
>she calls, audibly upset
>"anon can you come here?"
>what's up? everything ok?
>"yeah I just need help buying the sour cream"
>no worries, just grab the cheap stuff, it's all the same really
>"No, I can't touch it - {inaudible}"
Basically she freaked out over touching the container even, made me pick it up. I don't understand, she's way too emotional sometimes.
>>2145769
I didn't mean to go buy whatever "certified humane" is. Just buy from small farmers you can check out or hunted meat, etc etc.
>>2145806
>this choice does not contribute to animal welfare at all
technically none of them do.
all the meat she's not eating is either being consumed by the population of carnivores that grows faster than vegans do,
or it's being sold to other countries that like meat.
The vegan and vegetarian movements seem to have no affect on US meat production at all. The more vegans we have, the more meat we raise.
>>2145808
>all the meat she's not eating is either being consumed by the population of carnivores that grows faster than vegans do,
>
>or it's being sold to other countries that like meat.
Or even worse, it gets trashed or rots.
>>2145802
You're hilarious.
>>2145804
You would hate me. I think vegans aren't preachy enough. I don't associate with non-vegans in my personal life because 1. I don't trust them at all. 2. Their choice to fund animal abuse like they're billionaires and it's their favorite charity angers me and either I sell my soul pretending I don't mind and being disgusted by myself, or I end up fighting with them. 3. It causes me physical pain to speak with people who really don't give a fuck about the animals being abused. I have PTSD and my activism directly correlates with the amount and severity of chest pains I get. I stayed in bed all day today except for when I was walking the dog that lives with me because I recently got back into activism and I've been having nearly constant panic attacks.
I'm always amazed at how meat eaters think they're justified when they whine about vegans being "preachy", but vegans are terrible fucking disgusting people who deserve death for trying to persuade people to stop fucking torturing animals and destroying the planet for current and future generations, or maybe even just to improve their own personal health.
I try hard to be understanding and people still harass me if I try to educate them. Meat eaters have no fucking clue how much patience vegans have to have. Even the "extreme" ones like me.
If vegans treated meat eaters the way meat eaters treated animals and the vegans, you'd all be dead. So be thankful.
>>2145813
>If vegans treated meat eaters the way meat eaters treated animals and the vegans, you'd all be dead. So be thankful.
Nice, that helps not spread the idea that all vegans are psychopathic tumblrinos/as.
Is your dog on a vegan diet too? :^)
Or are you just not really extreme?
>>2145806
Are you fucking serious? You asked an ethical vegan to buy sour cream and you think she's the one with a problem?
God, it must be nice living in a bubble with no concerns for anyone or anything but yourself.
I wouldn't have tolerated that at all. If I were at that dinner at all (I wouldn't be), you'd all be getting cashew sour cream from me.
And meat is fucking repulsive so of course vegans don't want our food contaminated with it. If someone was roasting up a toddler or a puppy would you want to eat from that same grill?
If someone asked you to go buy them some chopped up puppy or toddler, would you be as nice as your sister was about the sour cream?
Your poor sister.
>>2145813
I'm not a vegan but I'm almost as autistic as you and I know that feeling.
you should perhaps consider the possibility that people dismiss you because it's your views that are wrong and immoral.
just a thought.
it's helped me deal with people disagreeing with my opinions. It's easier not to hate people if you level your own hateful judgment at yourself first.
>>2145815
Puppies and babies don't have enough meat, it's better to wait until they're grown ups.
>>2145807
Certified Humane is the best standard of care there is and the animals are still severely abused....
And holy shit what the fuck is wrong with people that they go through all this effort to get hunted meat or animal products from small farmers when that shit's so fucking gross and bad for you even if you were to ignore that you're making animals suffer.
Fucking pure mental illness.
Going vegan is literally spitting in face of evolution, the only reason you possess the cognitive ability you possess is because your ancestors ate a high protein MEAT diet, you fucking moral superiority snob degenerates.
>>2145813
You're imposing your morality on others.
You're no better than fundamentalist christians.
Your leaning towards more extreme measures and soapboxing puts you close to Muslims that call for American and European Shariah law.
You don't understand that just because something upsets you that you don't have the right to strip the freedom of choice from people who sincerely don't care for the lifestyle you live.
I'm not against the act of veganism itself.
I'm upset about the uptight entitled douchebaggery it brings along with it.
We all know that animals are treated poorly.
We all know that mass farming is terrible for the environment.
But the fact of the matter is that natural crops do not yield enough to feed the world population, lest you succumb to the usage of GMO seeds.
The amount of land that would need to be cleared on top of what already has to be taxed on the environment would be astounding.
Do we need better methods for raising livestock?
Absolutely. That's why the population is proven to buy what they perceive as the most cruelty-free option when capable.
Can we develop better agricultural methods to combat desertification and increase yield?
Absolutely. But we face a hurdle with corporate big-bodies like Monsanto pushing their strands harder than Big Pharma.
At the end of the day, we're making slow progress towards a future where either choice will be fundamentally less taxing on the person and environment than it is today.
But arguing that one is superior to the other simply over moral values is not only inefficient, incorrect, and ham-fisted but also childish and naive.
>>2145811
Have you guys really not heard of supply and demand....
Much fewer animals were slaughtered last year actually, despite a population increase.
>>2145821
I'd love to read your source, because everything from the US gov says consumption has stayed steady while exports have been exploding in growth.
>>2145821
also meat consumption in the US is tied directly to prices and the economy, not how many vegans we have. There aren't enough vegans in the country to have any impact on food production.
>>2145814
He's not my dog, he's my employer's dog. So no, he's not vegan. I have a bag of Natural Balance vegan dog food for when I feed him though.
And it's just reality. Meat eaters should be very, very grateful vegans aren't so violent and callous as they are.
>>2145818
Are you retarded?
I have nothing against vegans, and even enjoy most vegan food and barely eat meat myself, but if you are actually saying meat in any quantity is horrible for you or that there are NO places that don't severely abuse their animals, you are either trolling, severely deluded, retarded, or a mixture of all three.
Meat is only bad for you if you're eating a shitload of it, or are eating gross super processed stuff or etc. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever unhealthy about eating smallish quantities of it.
>>2145825
Vegans are a tiny minority, you being "violent" would bring one things: all vegans in prison, or dead.
Which actually sounds interesting, go for it, mate.
>vegan dog food
Oh man, I thought you were against animal abuse.
>>2145820
Don't compare me to a religious person please. My beliefs are based on reality and your attempt to trivialize the reality is disgusting. Your arguments could be used against people who are against pedophile rapists as well. Your logic is so fucking flawed it's almost laughable.
There is way more uptight entitled douchebaggery in meat eaters. In fact, it's a fucking REQUIREMENT. And you don't seem to realize that most crops go to feed LIVESTOCK. You are not living in fucking reality and are therefore more comparable to religious people than I am. And don't even get me started on the environmental impact of animal agriculture because you're obviously not worth the effort.
>Absolutely. That's why the population is proven to buy what they perceive as the most cruelty-free option when capable.
LOL I wish. Then everyone would be vegan.
You're confused in assuming I have a big ego when the reality is you're just a fucking jackass making ridiculous statements and you don't want to accept that someone is calling you out on it so you get defensive and pretend they're assholes for literally no reason.
Holy shit you're a joke.
>>2145815
>Are you fucking serious? You asked an ethical vegan to buy sour cream and you think she's the one with a problem?
Nah, I paid. She just had to find it and bring it.
Doing so would have contributed nothing to the suffering of the cow.
>If someone asked you to go buy them some chopped up puppy
I wouldn't care, my emotional attachment to dogs has nothing to do with it. Eating dogs is no less ethical than eating other animals.
>or toddler
Eating animals =/= eating humans.
>>2145829
I'm educated. You verrrry fucking clearly aren't.
You have a looot of fucking nerve acting like you know fucking anything about nutrition or animal agriculture.
Again, click the pages at the top of the site linked in the OP to educate yourself a bit so you don't push educated people to blow their brains out.
>>2145830
Dogs do perfectly fine or even better on vegan kibble. One of the oldest dogs that ever lived was fed a vegan diet.
>>2145836
>so you don't push educated people to blow their brains out.
The only ones here calling for suicide and/or removal of people they don't like are vegans.
>>2145834
With that attitude, I can see why people hate vegans. Someone brings up an argument they think is valid and instead of pointing anything out, it's ad hominem and dismissal.
I'm making ribs tomorrow.
I'm going to roast a chicken as well.
Even though I won't eat it, I'll also fry up some fish and drop it in the trashcan.
And I'll post pics here on /an/ just for you.
I even googled some research after I made that post. I was going to concede a few fair points.
But your high and mighty all-enveloping cunt lips that now compose 90% of your body (the other 10% being an inescapable yeast infection) have convinced me that not only is further posting in this thread ridiculous and masochistic, but so are any attempts at reasonable discussion with a vegan extremist.
TL;DR Fuck you and the cucumber you rode in on.
>>2145835
I was assuming you were paying already... It's still fucked up. You really have no fucking clue how much nauseating guilt you were putting your sister through.
>I wouldn't care, my emotional attachment to dogs has nothing to do with it. Eating dogs is no less ethical than eating other animals.
Yep, you're hopeless.
>Eating animals =/= eating humans.
Pigs are smarter than toddlers. And animals are tortured before they're killed for your disgusting snacks. Eating a human would actually be a more ethical choice.
>>2145840
>TL;DR Fuck you and the cucumber you rode in on.
Your wit is astounding..
>>2145841
>Eating a human would actually be a more ethical choice.
And you call ME hopeless.
Some vegans...
>>2145825
Actually, I'm hoping vegans just straight up murder a human being for eating meat.
If you're gonna think like ISIS, then fucking do it. Bomb ranches and shit. Fuck up fishing boats before the territorial coast guards do. Assassinate Senators known to have taken agribusiness money. Join Sea Shephard and fucking murder the Japanese Whale Research fleet and also Taiji.
Vegan food can be tasty and delicious. It's possible to go full vegan without compromising taste or ethics. Yet most vegans don't want to show how fucking tasty vegetables are in favor of "hate anyone who isn't in my ingroup" because it justifies their cuntishness, which is the root of the issue here.
You're already spewing hate and chafing at the bit to commit murder. So either step the fuck back and do some reflection or go full retard.
>>2145844
The home page of that site is purely vegan recipes...because I realize food is a big part of what stops/gets people to go vegan. I was trying to be nice and honestly hoping to find people to relate to here but with meat eaters who are callous and lack understanding, of course my threads always take an entirely different direction than I would like.
>>2145845
>it's not my fault
>it's never my fault
>why don't i have friends
>meat eaters get out, reeeee, etc
>>2145836
Retarded and deluded it is then.
As a biology major, what you are saying is completely nonsensical and laughable.
We are omnivores. Most people eat unhealthy quantities of meat, and humans being on a vegan diet is fine, but it is complete idiocy to say "any amount of meat is fucking horrible".
There are animals like that (for example green iguanas, any amount of meat is bad for them because they cant process it properly and it fucks up their internal organs over time) but humans definitely aren't one of them. We certainly aren't built to be inhaling beef for every meal, but eating small amounts of meat semi regularly is more than fine, if not a little healthier than skipping out on it entirely. (especially if you stick to stuff like fish and avoid red meat)
Also are you really saying ALL sources of meat involve animals being tortured? There are plenty of people who raise meat animals humanely. Maybe not any of the big meat producers, but local farmers are always an option and supporting them is a great thing because thats money encouraging ethical animal raising and not factory farms.
I completely agree with the guy comparing you to a fundamentalist christian. You have some fucked up viewpoint you militantly try to enforce on other people that you got from biased sources without doing any real research or considering anything past "MEAT IS MURDER CRUEL HYOOMANZ XD".
As a tip though, if you wouldnt act so comically aggressive and buttmad people might actually take vegans halfway seriously. Veganism as a whole has some good points and ideas, but people acting like you are just make the general public think all vegans are complete retards.
>>2145844
>If you're gonna think like ISIS, then fucking do it. Bomb ranches and shit. Fuck up fishing boats before the territorial coast guards do. Assassinate Senators known to have taken agribusiness money. Join Sea Shephard and fucking murder the Japanese Whale Research fleet and also Taiji.
That would involve actually doing something. Most crazy vegans can't be bothered unless it is useless bitching on the internet so they can try to show off to other people how humane they are. They would never in a million years do anything actually risky like any of the stuff you mentioned.
Are there any native tribes that are pure vegan?
Or right, no there aren't, because that's fucking unnatural for humans.
>>2145851
Protein deficiency has withered away the majority of their muscles. They wouldn't be able to get out of their seats much less carry a bomb in a duffel bag.
Lettuce is the only thing that won't run away from them, friends and family included, apparently.
>>2145845
I'm Chinese and I suppose I can sympathaize a litle.
Sadly, acting like an entitled shit isn't gonna win fans. I don't think it's a big secret that most of the corn farmed in the US goes to livestock feed. Or the fact that Monsato is doing mad fucked up Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain plots to make money off their GM plants. (The irony is that some of those plants are soybeans). Or that animals are gonna be mistreated in order to feed First World/Second World populations.
Again, I reiterate. You're already so far in the rabbit hole you can't see how much of a cunt you're acting when you meet someone who doesn't agree with you. And I'm the puppy-boiling cat-eating degenerate who thinks vegans have a valid point.
>>2145845
>my threads always take an entirely different direction than I would like.
I started out stating my desire to shift to becoming a vegan, with you responding politely and giving me helpful information.
It wasn't long before you were calling me hopeless and swearing at me.
Guess which part of our conversation is likely to result in me eating less meat?
You do your movement a disservice when you fly off the handle like that.
I'm literally on your side, I eat less than half the meat I did a year ago, rarely eat dairy and eggs, and unhesitatingly cook vegan when I'm hosting vegans, but I'm still an asshole and 'hopeless'.
Be polite and understanding yourself and you'll actually make a big difference.
Ignore the trolls, they got what you wanted when you got mad at everyone.
>>2145859
>Be polite and understanding yourself and you'll actually make a big difference.
No more than a quarter of the human population will ever be "vegan" and you know it.
And that's being fucking generous.
Why is it literally all vegans act like massive cunts? I genuinely would have considered trying it but they all seem like terrible people and I don't want to end up like that.
>>2145872
OP did a great job of living up to your expectations, I must admit.
I actually have a pretty based vegan friend. But she's also quite the SJW and feminist so mostly I just wonder why she tolerates me, lol.
>>2145815
hahahahahahaha hahaha
if this is b8, well done. if you're serious, kill yourself faggot.
There is literally no fucking reason to go vegan.
Don't like factory farming?
Buy your own chickens and raise them for meat or eggs.
Fish are not abused.
Exotic animals (kangaroo/crocodile/hunted deer)
are not abused.
So that really only leaves lamb/pork/beef. Industries that you can change by specifically choosing smaller companies that care more.
>>2145874
>vegan
>SJW
>feminist
Are these people cloned in a factory?
Tell me she has her hair dyed pink/purple/blue and I'll lose my sides.
>>2145877
Oh wait nevermind.
Australia sells beef that graze literally over hundreds of kilometres. So only the death is traumatising.
>>2145882
>So only the death is traumatising.
Especially if they get shipped live to fucking Muslim countries amiright.
>>2145885
True, but that wont last forever. Aus is a fairly pro animals country, even if we are the worst first world country in terms of looking after the environment.
>>2145887
>even if we are the worst first world country in terms of looking after the environment.
Bullshit
jesus christ this thread. vegan genocide when? not eating meat can't be natural since it seems to turn people into massive cunts 99% of the time.
>>2145872
Probably lack something only found in meat, I guess.
>>2145891
Probably about all these gigantic open air mines Australia has.
>>2145896
Yeh, it's terrible when we dig up sand and pile it on top of more sand.
>>2145765
>Pls respond. I'm incredibly lonely right now and need vegans to talk to.
Uh huh.
>>2145880
Actually she's attractive, tanned and blonde. Not my type but she's a pretty cool chick. We've actually had political discussions and disagreed and neither of us got mad.
But I went on a few dates with someone who literally ticks all those boxes and it made me uncomfortable, like I was walking on eggshells.
We were talking politics and she literally said I just don't understand because I'm a white male.
We still chat, surprisingly. I get surprised SJWs in real life tolerate me.
>>2145896
I don't see a problem here. Australia is a deathworld to begin with.
>>2145926
>Aus is shocking.
Yes keep making baseless statements.
>>2145912
Despite being an ignorant white male placed on an unjust pedestal of oppression and bigotry, you're still safer to fuck than a black guy and probably have more money as well.
Just because a woman is an SJW doesn't mean she's not a woman.
>>2145927
>baseless
I'm not sure why you're taking this so offensively?
http://www.baka.com.au/environment/climate-change/australia-ranked-worstperforming-developed-nation-on-climate-performance-20141208-122nk4.html
>In absolute global terms, the 10 countries with the worst environmental impact are (in order, worst first): Brazil, USA, China, Indonesia, Japan, Mexico, India, Russia, Australia and Peru.
>>2145928
>Just because a woman is an SJW doesn't mean she's not a woman.
Yes because men don't have problems unique to men or anything.
>>2145927
>https://independentaustralia.net/environment/environment-display/australian-logging-and-the-end-of-species,7788
So can you shut the fuck up now?
I live here. Do you? Cause your eyes must be fucking glued shut to not see this.
>>2145930
That report is two years old.
>"The bottom five countries are Afghanistan, Niger, Madagascar, Eritrea, and Somalia for a lot of the reasons you might expect: illegal hunting and poaching, poor air and water quality, deforestation, failure to protect biodiversity, over-fishing."
http://grist.org/living/here-are-the-countries-that-are-the-best-and-worst-at-protecting-the-environment/
>>2145930
No joke, that link keeps failing on me.
>on-climate-performance
What does this mean?
>>2145933
Yes and you'll notice they are all third world countries.
>>2145932
Any links that aren't complete bias horseshit?
>>2145930
so, basically, we *aren't* the worst first world country then? Thanks for agreeing with me you complete fucking cunt.
>>2145936
>moving the goalpost
IRRELEVANT.
Australia is not the worst environmental offender.
Not even that bad.
>>2145937
Did you read your own link?
Aus is ranked
91 for agriculture
89 for forests
92 for fisheries
68 for biodiversity
82 for climate and energy
That's from your fucking link.
>>2145941
I haven't even posted a link you special kid.
>>2145931
I'm sorry?
My point wasn't any sort of gender equality mumbo-jumbo.
Anon didn't understand why western apologist pseudo-feminists tolerate him. I pointed out a simple fact.
>>2145939
He isn't moving it though, his initial point was "we are the worst first world country in terms of looking after the environment." Notice how he said first world. Afghanistan and the others don't matter.
>>2145939
Hey fuckwit.
I didn't move the goalpost, that was my original point.
>>2145943
I don't know which one of you retards posted it.
I have no fucking idea why you're getting so up your ass about this. It's literally a throw away comment about how shit I think Aus is at protecting the environment and you're acting like i'm saying it's an irrefutable fact.
Jesus.
>>2145945
>Japan and USA aren't first world
Ok
>>2145947
You're the one who started arguing the point, retard.
>>2145948
Now you're moving the goal post on this side argument, m8.
I also never said he wasn't wrong.
>>2145949
Arguing what?
Someone said it was a baseless comment to say Aus is shit.
That's moronic.
>>2145951
You know why Aus is bad for a first world country?
Because every other fucking first world country cut their forests down centuries ago.
>>2145948
>http://grist.org/living/here-are-the-countries-that-are-the-best-and-worst-at-protecting-the-environment/
America beats us on agriculture/water/climate and energy/fisheries
Japan beats on a bunch of shit as well.
And don't forget we only have a pop of 20 mil.
>>2145952
No arguments from me on that point.
I don't blame Aussies for wanting to kill the island.
If you were a bunch of violent inbred criminals that were thrown into a Class 5 Death World like that (natives and all) I'd be eager to end my suffering too.
>>2145953
>In the 2014 EPI ranking, the top five countries were Switzerland, Luxembourg, Australia, Singapore, and the Czech Republic.
Sounds like a pretty fucking baseless argument for anything to me.
That list is stupid but not as stupid as you so congratulations.
>>2145815
Bait or not, this is a great example of why people hate vegans. They are fucking nutjobs.
>>2145815
>If someone was roasting up a toddler or a puppy would you want to eat from that same grill?
>puppy
I'm not a cannibal but if the puppy was already cooking I'd definitely try it.
>>2145956
Spoken like someone who has no idea how they actually rank this stuff.
>2014
Yes and notice how in 2016 we've gone down to 13th.
I'll tell you why you're an idiot.
There's 5 different categories. Australia wins on 2 of them simply for being a tiny population on a massive island.
That alone counters our shitty forestry/agriculture/climate change/loss of species track
>>2145760
fucking hippie.
>>2145964
Yeah and in 2018 we shoot back up to ten.
Then 2020...
Blah blah, that shit is fucking stupid.
The original point is that Australia is in no way the worst 1st-world country, so go drink some bleach or something.
You know we weren't even in the top 30 in 2012?
We must have improved heaps right?
Or can you just admit those lists are as fucking dim-witted as you are?
>>2145966
Yeah the great barrier reef is looking great.
Fucking liberals.
>>2145967
Nothing lasts forever bro :)
There's a subject called "paleontology" you might want to look into.
>>2145966
Why the hell are you on a nature board?
>>2145970
I find it fascinating that 99.9% of species that have ever existed have gone extinct yet you all expect every species we have now to last forever, its cute.
>>2145971
Yes, yes, there is no god, nothing we do matters, life is meaningless, everything dies..
/clap
>>2145760
Ok.
I get not wanting to eat meat from these mass producers, but how do vegans feel about raising your own meat?
For example, I have free range chickens. They have plenty of land (though they generally stay within an acre of roost). I don't see why it would be wrong, when the time comes, to eat one of my chickens.
I'm trying to be sensitive and delicate, but this is something I wondered about. I also have cows, goats and a pig.
>the whole world becomes vegan
>a huge industy becomes unprofitable
>taking care of any livestock becomes obsolete
>at their current population all the domesticated animals are dependend on humans
>they dont have a place in natural eco systems either (at least not without fucking them up)
>all their populations are decreasing drastically
Why do people want animal genocide so bad?
>>2145974
You're being sarcastic, but in another part of the world, you'd be a Buddha.
>>2145977
Because you hurt their feelings, Anon. It's not because of animal cruelty and suffering, it's because you're less affected by it than they are.
>>2145974
I'm just wondering why environmentalists think the world needs to stay in an ecological bubble somewhere in the mid 20th century.
>>2145981
Same reasons baby boomers hate millenials, anon.
Things will never be the same and everything they know and love will be gone.
>>2145981
>Environmentalists want to avoid mass extinctions and having man and roaches the only last species on Earth.
>>Ah bloo bloo, stupid libruls.
>>2145983
>enviornmentalists act like they're reasonable
>throw a candlelight vigil when the Long Toed Red-Breasted Patagonian Rock Frog goes extinct
Yeah, nah, you guys throw a fit and even the most weak and hopeless species goes extinct.
>>2145977
>wanting millions of people lose their jobs
>wanting millions of people to starve
>wanting millions of animals to die just because you think they dont deserve an existence as farm animals
>wanting ecologocal problems everywhere because "muh killing iz bad", so hunter cant do shit
>>>/wsg/1123887
Deers can be cunts. Sometimes it is better for everyone, if an animal dies.
reminder that these threads are made by the same shill that constantly posts them on /b/
>>2145813
>I have anxiety attacks from this
>I have physical pain from this
>I have PTSD
>blah, blah, blah
Fuck you. All you are is a fucking basket case, maybe you should just suck it up and learn how to deal with simple, everyday, common things.
Or check yourself in to the closest nut house because apparently the only real problem you actually have is brain damage.
>>2145986
Get a better job, people can eat something else.
>>2145813
>If vegans treated meat eaters the way meat eaters treated animals and the vegans, you'd all be dead. So be thankful.
spoken like a true sociopath. Take your PETA narrative and fuck off
>>2145825
>Natural Balance vegan dog food
>b-but guys! I dont want animals to suffer, I swear
>it is totally not about me just being an attention whore
>>2146062
>spoken like a first world country entitled city dweller
>also: conveniently ignoring all the other points
>>2145813
I don't know why you think my steak is so bad, it's made out of the same stuff as your shoes and purse. Oh, and all those cosmetics you're wearing, yeah they test that shit on animals all the time. Same as all those meds you think you NEED. Big pharma fucked up all kinds of animals for your crazy pills. You really are a horrible person.
I once told a vegan how many "animal products" he is still consuming. Boy, did he got triggered
>>2145818
>Just buy from small farmers you can check out or hunted meat, etc etc.
This is a really under-rated comment. Anyone that feels guilt about the way animals are treated are not going to be eating all that much anyway. It is within reason to go the extra mile and buy locally. It's not like they'll be eating red meat every night. And it allows a lot of flexibility in their diet instead of having to commit to an entirely meat-free lifestyle.
Sometime, a guy just wants some chicken in their stir fry, and it's nice to have the option available through a local farmer you know on a first name basis. And if you say there is nowhere near you, perhaps you should consider moving if you feel that strongly about commercial meat instead of crying that the world isn't adapting to your special needs.
>>2145836
I'm a vet student, I have been to my fair share of farms (I've seen everything from an intensive broiler unit, indoor pigs, dairy, beef- organic, free range, intensive etc) and abattoirs (want to be a farm vet- so have spent my fair share of time going around various farms with our vets). Having read the PDF attached to that website, it is the biggest load of rubbish I have read in a while.
The govegan now PDF was atrocious with it's incorrect facts, we don't kill male calves- we rear them for beef as one example off the top of my head, and as for humanising animals...
I'm with you to some extent, there ARE some problems in intensive units in farms, I agree completely- but to say there's no such thing as a ethical meat? I would disagree massively.
On a side note, I hate it when they use pictures of abbittoirs like that. Yes it's bloody, but if you've ever been to one you'll rapidly realise how calm, quiet and (almost scarily) mechanical the entire process is. The entire process is extremely quick and efficient.
>>2145844
They already do. A friend of mine works at a lab that does medical research, and animal activists threw bricks through all their windows and charged into the lab smashing everything and breaking all the equipment. They hit one of the workers across the head with a brick in the end.
I wouldn't mind if this was cosmetic testing, but this is for new drugs... I get it- I'd love to test drugs on human prisoners too, but that isn't happening anytime soon, but that doesn't mean you need to hurt people and cause thousands of pounds of damage. Admittedly this was for animal testing, but it's only time.
>>2145977
absolutely brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrlfkxvJNj0
>>2146142
>people cant possibly disagree with my philosophical viewpoint
>no, they are just brainwashed into believing a lie
>>2145760
I want to follow your link but I'm afraid it's just going to be gruesome images that make me too disgusted to eat meat.
I'm actually willfully ignorant because I enjoy the taste of meat. I just had gyros last night and they were delicious. How am I going to self-impose a no gyros rule on myself.
Hopefully one day we can grow artificial meat in labs so I can enjoy my habit without feeling like a shitlord.
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I'm vegan.
>>2145760
Sick, you still eat vegetables? Vegetables can feel pain you know.
>>2146151
oh shit nigger what are you doing
>>2146114
There's literally a study that shows even in the absolute best slaughterhouses, what you're saying is a lie.
And no, male calves are definitely killed. Who the fuck do you think you're talking to? You think you can just make shit up and I'm going to just believe all the countless undercover investigations and first person views of the practices I've seen and heard of from farmers themselves were just my imagination?
Fuck you, you disgusting, shameless shill.
>>2146158
that lack of self awareness is amazing
talk about shill
>muh evil farmers
>>2146158
>getting shot into your little cow brain with a cattle gun doesnt kill you instantly
>>2146158
>Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
a nobody that keeps re-making these threads every time the argument is lost.
>>2146158
>Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
to a deluded PETA shill, that does think animals have the same value as humans and that also has a lot of comfirmation bias when it comes to picking "sources"
I'm killing animals to have nice leather boots, keep down nuisance animals and to have delicious nutritious food and providence dictates.
I do everything I can to avoid the suffering of the animals pointlessly, buy free range eggs etc but acting in the interest of my group, people, is what is ethical.
![veal+calves+good[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ueZfuZX.jpg "veal+calves+good[1].jpg")
>>2146158
Please show me this study, I would love to read it- genuinely. In my line of work my goal is to try and learn as much as possible from as many farmers as possible so we can push for better welfare- I strongly believe you can't change welfare for the better unless you work with the people who can regulate change, aka the farmers here.
However, I would also love to see your sources on male dairy calves being killed. Ten years ago, yes, sure- most male calves were shot, but these days when a dairy farmer can sell off his male calves for meat, why would he shoot something he can sell?
Mind, I also realise I'm from the UK. A lot of your undercover investigations come from states with lower than average animal welfare legislation, something I hope will be pushed to improve over the coming years. In the EU for example it is illegal to use farrowing crates for pigs, veal crates (which I presume you will think of instantly when I say raising male calves) are also banned- take a look at Rose veal if you're interested how they raise veal these days, barren chicken cages are banned (cages now have to be enriched, so have a perch, litter, more space etc- not perfect, but then I could argue that free range isn't perfect either welfare wise- but that's another story) and our welfare laws are some of the highest I believe.
You have to be extremely careful with your sources, just because certain conditions are in place at one farm doesn't mean you can tar them all with the same brush.
Pick related: rose veal, from some of your calves supposedly killed within the dairy industry.
>>2145764
The standard legal form of slaughter for animals is for them to be "stunned" and then have their throats slit. For chickens and pigs, the stunning is generally done with an electric shock, and for other animals a pneumatic bolt pistol projects a metal rod into their forehead. It is claimed that this renders the animal 100% unconscious, but if you actually look into the facts, slaughterhouse workers will admit that there is no way to verify that this is the case for every single animal, and indeed the process doesn't always work, isn't followed routinely, and indeed, the "stun" can wear off while the animal is being killed.
But regardless of the fashion of execution, there isn't a justification for taking the life. It is still taking the life of a sentient being, for your enjoyment ultimately. If somebody killed your companion animal, I doubt you'd say "that's fine because you did it humanely" as described above.
>>2145764
Regardless of the nature of their lives before slaughter, farmed animals get sent to slaughter. There is a misconception that animals get to "live out their lives" and then get killed. Animals get killed as soon as their purpose is served, or as soon as they reach a profitable size, which is at a fraction of their potential lifespan. The very definition of grass-fed/organic/free-range animals is actually very loose and can vary wildly. It doesn't mean that the animals have any kind of quality of life necessarily, it just means the farm has to meet some arbitrary requirements to earn that title. That's not to say that every single farmer treats their animals dreadfully while they live - some actually do give their animals a fair standard of life before sending them to have their throats slit. But it's ignorant to think it's the norm in the first place.
>>2145770
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED MY BROTHER
theveganstoner.blogspot.com www.youtube.com/user/hotforfoodblog/videos
>>2146195
Yeah, because farmers/butchers kill animals just for fun
>>2146190
Just to further this, in the UK our welfare laws being so high is actually a detriment for some farms. For example the pig industry, it is far cheaper to make pork more intensively than our laws over here allow, so quite a few of our pig farms are having to close as the cost of upgrading their current farms to be legal AND cost effective is quite frankly putting them out of business.
A large company near me that had ten farms has recently had to close two of its biggest due to this very issue.
Also, have you even considered some of the 'barbaric' practices farmers undertake from your website? Lets take pig teeth trimming for example: piglets have extremely sharp incisor teeth, they are designed that way so essentially the strongest of the litter survive. Farmers clip the teeth to protect not only the sow's teats, but also their weaker litter mates. Mind, if you believed everything you read, you'd also believe that this is common practice- in fact it is far from it, it is to be used as a last resort if other environmental enrichment does not work. There is also legislation on WHEN it can be done and by whom it can be done by. If a farmer does not comply, he will be put out of business.
>>2146203
Supply and demand.
People generally eat it instead of non-meat foods because you enjoy the taste of meat.
everybody who isnt an entitled little nagger in a first world country would have a fucking hard time not to starve, if he would follow a strict vegan diet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=72&v=LUkHkyy4uqw
>>2146208
My cock is so hard right now.
>>2146195
Regardless of your second statement, as that is ultimately an opinion, I will state some facts.
Yes, there is no way for to verify that this is the case for every single animal (as there simply is not enough time), but every slaughter house also legally has to have a vet on site. No vet equals no animal is being slaughtered.
The official protocol is routinely followed, it would be illegal to not follow through, and whilst I agree with you that chickens have it rough in terms of not being stunned- I would argue that there's not much consciousness going off after a pneumatic bolt pistol. A vet would be struck off if it is found his slaughterhouse was not legally following the process so to speak, as would the slaughterhouse. You seem to forget that these places are essentially businesses, they would not risk their business being shut down.
Also, you are talking about the larger scale slaughterhouses here. Going back to smaller scale for a second, there are plenty of smaller butchers that will only process a few animals a day, so if you really want to put your tinfoil hat on and not trust the bigger slaughterhouses- buy your meat locally and directly from a smaller unit where you know the butcher/process. I'm sure if you asked nicely he/she would even let you watch.
>>2146211
>Source: my bleeding anus
PETA propaganda has zero credibility
>>2146151
>I'm vegan
Ok, but does this automatically make you an idiot? Because anybody reading this thread would probably think so. I don't care what you eat, but when people start acting like some of the vegans ITT it's hard to take anything you say serious.
>>2146212
>as that is ultimately an opinion,
Would you mind expanding on that.
> I would argue that there's not much consciousness going off after a pneumatic bolt pistol
I agree with you there.
My problem is with the unnecessariness of killing live animals for food, etc & the harsh conditions they live in and how they are mistreated.
> so if you really want to put your tinfoil hat on and not trust the bigger slaughterhouses
It isn't some conspiracy as you are trying to spin what I say as just a conspiracy theory. There is a massive amount of empirical evidence to back up my mistrust and negative perspective on "big" slaughterhouses.
Also, what is the point of your last statement?
Of course smaller farms will produce and process a few animals a day. No shit. Every snowflake is still part of the avalanche.
>>2146213
>PETA propaganda
Are you retarded?
>>2146168
>expecting a rational argument
>4chan
>>2146220
>the harsh conditions they live in and how they are mistreated.
neither of this is the case.
neglected livestock makes poor quality meat, if your goal is to make a profit out of it you're forced to treat your animals well.
>>2146211
>dressed meat prices vs raw, unprocessed livestock feed prices
W E W L A D
>>2146220
>My problem is with the unnecessariness of killing live animals for food, etc & the harsh conditions they live in and how they are mistreated.
There's a few premises in that sentiment that almost nobody agrees with though.
first being that animals we eat are conscious and capable of suffering.
second being that if conscious, the animals would rather not exist than experience discomfort.
finally, that meat is produced instead of veggies and thus the loss of meat production won't impact world food supplies, or will impact it positively.
in reality the animals we eat probably aren't conscious. If they were, they'd undoubtedly rather be miserable sometimes rather than having never been born (animals aren't whiny emo chicks). And meat production adds greatly to world food supply to the point where if we pretend it's unnecessary billions of humans will starve to death.
and we can know that those billions of humans will suffer, and would much rather eat meat than die.
>>2146211
it has nothing to do with price per kg
holy shit, thats the kind of first world entitlement I was talking about
>>2146226
Not op but a plant-based diet can be as affordable as you need it to be. Common staples like bread, rice, pasta, beans, oats, vegetables are all going to be affordable. I have known people personally who have been made homeless who subsequently had to live in accommodation, who continued to be vegan. Indeed, many animal products are expensive. Some might say that vegan substitute meats etc are expensive - and while that can sometimes be true, they are entirely unnecessary for a healthy diet.
Just google vegan + frugal recipes and you can find recipes that are vegan and dirt cheap.
>>2146205
well
If I enjoy meat and there are ways to acquire some without unnecessarily making animals suffer, I dont know why I shouldnt.
It also isnt just for fun. we are omnivores.
But I guess you are telling me now, that you dont need any supplements at all
>>2146225
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLFF7DE1D5DD17F6CE&v=TMYTm2Wla6Q
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_animal_farming
>>2146206
you got it backwards, dude
I never heard someone say "I'm a normal eater"
>>2146211
yeah. no shit, corn is generally cheaper than meat. way to miss the point, mr hard dick
I am not vegan nor vegetarian, but i do feel pity about most farm animals. As far as i know, pigs are smarter than dogs, and very capable to create emotional links with people.
But i am not against. animal farming. Just wished they were treated better. Also is important not to incentive the mental grown of those animals. Just like humans grown in the wild never achieve the same level of intelligence, an animal grown without stimulus wont be like an animal grown at your home.
>>2146236
>first being that animals we eat are conscious and capable of suffering.
>second being that if conscious, the animals would rather not exist than experience discomfort.
Go tell a fucking ethologist that you fucking autist.
Anyway,
Bringing a life into the world does not justify taking it. And think this through - in the egg industry, as soon as males are hatched, they are killed. Immediately. Did you really do that chicken a favour by bringing them into the world, to then immediately be killed? Nobody can seriously say yes to this, but that is precisely what is going on every day, and you fund that if you buy eggs.
Animals bred for meat are killed as soon as they reach a profitable size, which will typically be a few months old, or about a year. You didn't do that animal any favours.
Finally, let's extend this to animals besides livestock. You have a dog, they're pregnant. Does that mean you can slit the puppies' throats, because you were the one who arranged for your dog to get pregnant? Of course not, it's nothing to do with it.
Most of your points are conjecture with no empirical evidence for yet enough evidence against. Go jerk off to a trap in /b/
>>2146237
>tfw in 3rd world country
>tfw lived entire life vegetarian and the past 2 years vegan
>tfw some american tells me: thats the kind of first world entitlement I was talking about
>>2146248
if you think that's 'evidence' against what I'm saying I have bad news for you.
>youtube as a source.
pls.
>>2146239
Show me a healthy vegan who doesn't eat overpriced 'meat substitutes' as part of their diet.
>inb4 skeletal pooinloos, Ethiopians and recently-deceased Everest hikers
![MaLCPHw[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tRmihps.jpg "MaLCPHw[1].jpg")
>>2146190
depends. most of the time dairy farmers lose money by raising bull calves until they are old enough to be sold, especially jersey calves, because it being such a tiny animal, all but the ones of genetic value are killed almost the second they are born.
we sell our bull calves at around 1 month.
>>2146204
you think UK animal husbandry laws are crazy, try Denmark. its all for the sake of the animals, i know, but some of the laws are just shit in its purest form, and clearly shows that a man in a suit, and not overalls, made them.
usually stressed cattle are much more uncooperative, so the key is not to stress them in the first place, like in some of those videos where they prod them with forks, or punch the cows with hammers, that will most likely get me fired here, and if found out by the government, i will most likely never be able to work with animals again, sure they can fustrate you at times, and pain is a great motivator for them, but beating up animals are most certainly not the solution. keep in mind they are not entirely defenceless, they can get very dangerous, as especially holstein cattle have no idea exactly how big they are.
>>2146241
Like everyone will become vegan. Be realistic please.
>Implications
They argued this throughout history.
"The implications if war stopped. What would the soldiers do."
"Therefore war is necessary."
Jeez.
>>2146261
>Go tell a fucking ethologist that you fucking autist.
there are no ethologists that believe that anything we farm commercially is capable of suffering on anything but a personal level.
>Bringing a life into the world does not justify taking it.
taking a life doesn't need to be justified.
>Did you really do that chicken a favour by bringing them into the world, to then immediately be killed?
you don't need to do chickens a favour.
>which will typically be a few months old, or about a year.
which is typically after they reach maturity, if we killed all animals before maturity it wouldn't be sustainable.
>Does that mean you can slit the puppies' throats
can and should are two different things.
but in this case you both can and you should since there's way too many dogs.
>>2146271
It will probably happen eventually, but maybe not in our lifetime.
>>2146261
>Go tell a fucking ethologist that you fucking autist.
I have. Many times.
ethologists don't get mad about the idea, they were raised with it. Lots of them may not agree with the statement, but then it's not a subject science has anything to say about.
>You didn't do that animal any favours.
a few months of happiness is better than none.
that is if we're pretending they're conscious and can be happy.
>Of course not, it's nothing to do with it.
not sure what you're talking about. If my dog has pups I can do whatever I want to them as long as it isn't torture. Of course I can slit their throats. They're my property.
>Go jerk off to a trap in /b/
I understand that people disagreeing with you makes you angry, that's because most people do and this makes your weak opinions that much harder to defend in your mind.
and your weak personality depends on your weak opinions. You're not a person, you're a vegan and that makes you angry when you meet real people.
it's fine. Get some hobbies. Go do something in addition to being vegan and eventually you'll see that what you eat doesn't matter. Nobody cares, it's not an important part of who you are.
>>2146221
>nonhuman.org
Did you even check it? it fucking is peta propaganda
>>2146265
that isnt very convincing, even if it was true
>>2146250
>normal
Us vs them...
Anyway,
>>2146271
>"The implications if war stopped. What would the soldiers do."
find different jobs. since people are capable of learning new things.
a cow will never learn how to be a vegetable on the other hand, or do anything productive other than producing milk and meat.
the life of your average commercial farmed cow is far more productive than that of yourself, all you do is shitpost on /b/, /out/ and /an/
>>2146261
>Go tell a fucking ethologist that you fucking autist
so that is your argument against the fact, that we cant just compare animals to humans?
wow
>>2146265
>every 3rd world country is the same
>>2146275
>Lots of them may not agree with the statement
they all agree with it on a scientific level.
but many hold personal beliefs, which you shouldn't base anything on since it's essentially religion.
>>2146276
> it's not a subject science has anything to say about.
As a reductive materialist...meow.
>>2146271
>Like everyone will become vegan. Be realistic please
Well, no they wont. That would be impossible.
That anons obviously followed your view ad absurdum to see how ridiculous it is.
Also, are you telling me now, that you dont want everyone to become vegan?
>>2146283
She's right, ethologists are lowering the bar on consciousness so quickly they'll be declaring plants conscious soon.
Time will tell if it's a fad or the new paradigm.
my money's on fad, but we'll see.
>>2146265
One funny thing to consider is how fucking expensive fresh food on US is if you dont live in the country side.
Those fucking 100+ dollars purchases on whole foods to prepare a single meal arent jokes.
>>2146275
Try telling 1.5 million Chinese to go vegan. We suicidally-empathetic faggots in the West are the only people nice enough to even consider thinking of veganism as a legitimate moral/social movement, who knows how long it could take for everyone else to do the same.
I think humanity will easily resort to cannibalism before collectively refusing to ever eat/consume animal products again.
>>2146290
>As a reductive materialist...meow
where's my conscious AI?
oh yeah, you haven't invented it yet.
I wonder why....
>>2146291
it's possible, just not sustainable.
vegans argue that if we turned all of the land we use to feed cattle into agricultural ground to feed humans we'd produce enough food to sustain our population.
which is hilarious because there's barely any land wasted on raising food for cattle.
>>2146280
the term normal isnt judgemental. eating meat is objectively normal.
Your pic is retarded, because it is advertisement. They are designed to shove something in your face. I could find pics advertising vegan food, thats not the point
>>2146283
>fact
You're using that wrong
>>2146293
Show me a test that clearly indicates, that a cow is self aware.
The notion that farm animals have a conscious comparablke tu humans is ridiculous
>>2146298
also doesn't deal with climate change which will cost us most of our agricultural capacity in the next century if all goes as planned.
>>2146296
Because I'm a biologist and know shit about programming and computer science.
>where's my conscious AI
I think it will be produced.
>>2146295
*billion
>>2146305
>Show me a test that clearly indicates, that a cow is self aware.
I didn't say it's right, I said most ethologists think it.
>>2146305
the notion that farm animals have a level of consciousness that is comparable to a module is laughworthy.
>>2146300
so farm animals have a human-like consciousness?
whats your point?
>>2146305
Well if you take the psychology path or certain schools of philosophy path then your reasoning is justified by their means.
I take the Neuroscience path and the notion that farm animals have a conscious comparable to the animal known as human is not so ridiculous.
comparable-
adjective
able to be likened to another; similar.
>>2146310
> I said most ethologists think it.
on a personal level.
you're not going to find any ethologists that will tell you that cows are for a fact self-aware.
>>2146295
You meant billion.
China is interesting in that the state can basically set a guideline and it immediately becomes the national goal where resources are guided towards.
No, it won't happen soon, but 50 years, who knows. Maybe things will happen that make it more pressing.
>>2146316
>I take the Neuroscience path
you can't demonstrate consciousness with neuroscience.
you're not a biologist, you wouldn't even pass a biology exam like this.
>>2146305
they do. every single one a different personality, a very complicated hierarchy, and daily routines.
they may only eat, shit, waddle around, sleep and be sociable, because they have not yet invented the television, but to be fair, the conditions they are put under in dairy farms, limits a little bit of their natural behaviour.
take it from someone surrounded by 700 of them every day.
>>2146306
yes, fuck that shit, i want to punch everyone who voted for it in the european pariliament
>>2146298
food is cheap right now. like as cheap as can be because we are so efficient that we produce almost double the food that we eat, at least in developed countries.
denmark can feed 3 times its own population, and land used for feed is a large portion of the total arable land world wide, at my work, its 1/6 of our 600 hectares, and then theres the stuff we buy, like soy that we are not able to grow in this climate.
>>2146291
I want everyone to not eat meat and hurt animals but I don't see that happening. I also want people to stop murdering and raping other people
>>2146317
>you're not going to find any ethologists that will tell you that cows are for a fact self-aware
that's the entire premise of Temple Grandin's entire career, and almost every ethologist that's followed.
Most ethologists will tell you cows are self-aware.
they have no evidence that you or I would accept, but they will absolutely tell you that anyways.
>>2146316
Dont turn this into a semantic argument. Of course, one could say that everything is comparable/ similar.
I meant on the same level, similar enough to make it matter for an ethnical question
Conscious is a direct result of certain cognitive functions in our brains. The stucture of the brain of a cow, its activities plus the behavior of the cow lets us know that the cow has objectively much simpler (and even lacks some of the) cognitive functions humans have.
Come on dude, do you really question why we have different moral standards for animals and humans? Do you seriously think a human and a cow experience the world in the same way, can suffer in a same way and that there is no difference in how those two organisms have emotions?
>>2146329
>Do you seriously think...
most vegans do.
their worldview is anthropomorphization.
many of them hate humans but love cows and pigs and chickens.
mostly because they've never had to spend time with any of them.
>>2146298
>which is hilarious because there's barely any land wasted on raising food for cattle.
http://www.pdf-archive.com/2015/12/20/shitty-pdf/
>>2146325
>every single one a different personality, a very complicated hierarchy, and daily routines.
I know. This is pretty much unrelated to self awareness and is not a valid test that clearly indicates it. We also tend to attribute our own thoughts/feelings to the behavior of animals
>>2146325
>every single one a different personality, a very complicated hierarchy, and daily routines.
do you have any citation suggesting that consciousness is required for any of those things?
>>2146321
Well sheeiitttt, better go return this ph.d they accidentally gave me.
>>2146337
it's funny because it's true.
ethology for example has given up all attempts at rigor. I mean, it's always been a soft science but now they're throwing the science part right out the window too.
It's now animal psychology, essentially just fantasy writing for the mediocre.
>>2146339
The world will not go vegan overnight. Also, as people start to eat less meat, new jobs will be created by vegan industries.
Yes, farmers may have to suffer as they transition, and I won’t belittle that suffering. But I think that farmers losing their jobs temporarily is not as bad as billions of animals suffering on factory farms each year.
>>2146337
what they gave you is 'probably' valid.
but you don't have the reading comprehension or education to grasp it.
so it's carrying water to the sea.
>>2146332
i can't seem to get through that lead cast you call a skull.
if they arent self aware they wouldn't have behaviour or instincts, they are capable of learning, befriend each other, and say you raise a calf in a herd of horses, it would aquire the behaviour of a horse.
>>2146342
>on a personal level, not a scientific one.
you clearly haven't read any ethology lately.
hell, get over on Wikipedia and read the "pain in animals" article.
>>2146346
> billions of animals suffering on factory farms each year.
[citation needed]
>>2146342
misread, thought it said that animals themselves don't take up much land.
Anyway, I am not versed in animal feed production so I can't argue.
>>2146348
>if they arent self aware they wouldn't have behaviour or instincts,
of course they would, you're just stupid
>they are capable of learning, befriend each other, and say you raise a calf in a herd of horses, it would aquire the behaviour of a horse.
none of which requires self-awareness.
>Wow you eat meat! Why don't you go kill puppies and babies, you sick fuck?
Is this kind of thing really meant to make me go vegan? Did it ever work?
>>2146355
>Did it ever work?
~2% of the US population is vegan, so no.
not really.
I think we've actually got more muslims than vegans here, and they're both about as popular.
>>2146346
>human suffering is ok, but animal suffering isnt
>it is ok, if whole races of animals go extinct
>>2146348
>if they arent self aware they wouldn't have behaviour or instincts
you don't need to be self-aware for that.
if instincts required self-awareness it wouldn't be instinct.
>>2146350
it's mostly written by bloggers.
if you're able to read between the lines you should be able to tell that it's written on more of a 'personal level' rather than stone cold 'facts'.
>>2146348
>We also tend to attribute our own thoughts/feelings to the behavior of animals
>>2146358
How many of those are vegans not by choice but due to health problems/allergies/etc?
inb4they'reallmentallyill
>>2146351
Literally google.
The earth is not flat... [citation needed]
4chan is the poorest medium to debate on. It is a pain in the ass to have a rational coherent argument on this site.
>>2146348
>they wouldn't have behaviour or instincts
by that logic bacteria would be self aware
>>2146346
Anyway meat needs a clear competitor that leaves no room for doubters saying "it doesn't taste anything like meat" or "it doesn't have same nutrition". The ball won't start rolling before that.
Even in that world I'd expect hunting and meat being eaten as a novelty/traditional reasons. But the new generations would anyway start to treat it barbaric, much like whaling as bit of an exception is treated now.
Most of these "anti-vegan" comments are aids infected cancer.
Like trying to argue with kids.. wait a minute
>>2146364
we forgot, that you just assume that they ALL are suffering
>>2146360
>it's mostly written by bloggers.
still haven't read any ethology, have you?
Grandin has published at least 10 peer-reviewed articles claiming cows are fully conscious.
it's now so commonly accepted in ethology that most papers just start off with the premise that "all mammals are conscious."
cows are of course mammals, and consciousness of course requires self-awareness.
The idiot anon arguing that cows can learn and that proves self-awareness didn't come up with this shit herself. The argument is taken directly from Grandin's published work and her books. It's widely accepted atm.
it's bullshit, but it's the current scientific view.
>>2146364
your image isn't the citation I'm requesting.
I'm requesting evidence that the animals raised in factory farms are capable of suffering.
>>2145764
I'm with you man, though I'm bit of a Beef/Pork addict.
Also, even if you abolish meat, you also have to deal with GMOs and land grabbing for farming and resources; it all came down to capitalism really.
>>2146365
Fucking brain and cns you cunt for brains.
>>2146368
>meat eaters are cancer
>they are murderers
>animal abusers
>evil farmers
>morally bankrupt
yeah. all this argumentation
>>2146373
>you also have to deal with GMOs and land grabbing for farming and resources
we should fix that so we can produce less food and starve a couple billion poor brown people to death asap.
/sarc
>>2146374
yeah, no shit
So there is a clear connection between cognitive "power" and self awareness. Thanks
>>2146377
Literally everybody profits from controling certain animal populations.
here is a neat little example
>>>/wsg/1123887
>>2146376
Note that the 2 leading cause of extinction in this day and age are Climate change and Habitat destruction.
>>2146370
>peer-reviewed
the term 'peer-reviewed' doesn't hold any sort of value or credibility in what's essentially a trigger culture.
>it's now so commonly accepted in ethology
ethology is a hug-box, any letters suggesting that it's a load of bullshit are going to be suppressed.
what you read about it is likely not what's actually happening.
>but it's the current scientific view.
oh, it's a view, just no a scientific one.
it's blogger tier 'science', regurgitated non-sense.
>>2146380
>meat isnt nutritious
flawless victory
>>2146385
Let's introduce wolves in vegan homes.
you're such a man, eating glutenfree soy fag salad
I bet all the bitches get wet, when you have to nag the waiter about there really not being any traces of icky animal in your meal. I bet all of your friends love it, when they have to prepare a special meal that tastes like shit for you.
Also, take a look at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism
Anarcho-Primitivists believes that we should remain in the tribal stage for the sake of unity between human and nature since our civilization is not only destined to end, but also threatens to take all life on this world down with it. Want to be morally/spiritually pure, live in the fucking woods and gather berries for the rest of your life. Even domestication of Plants are immoral in the eyes of an Primivists.
>>2146403
I don't know. I like the idea that we are just one step of the evolution towards something greater. That being silicon based life form, aka AI. I don't think progress can be stopped, the will to do anything that is possible to do, is built into us.
>>2146390
Putting her research on behaviour aside, I did find one thing useful on her website.
http://www.grandin.com/survey/2015.restaurant.audits.html
It debunks the whole "but they're not stunned properly and are alive whilst killing" argument in this thread for at least for cattle/pigs/sheep.
>>2145769
>The radical vegan
>tumblr
Off to a great start
>not wanting humans to be the alpha predator and on top of the food chain
>>2146385
Somebody ought to show that video to that autist who shows up here every so often ranting about how awful predator species are.
>>2145760
TRY TO BE A VEGAN AFTER WATCHING THIS VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i62bBGSlbXM
I DARE YOU
>>2146391
cooked meat isn't nutritious.
