Why is trying to raise a coyote as a pet a Bad Idea™?
It's a wild animal and not domesticated
>>2112750
It's fine to befriend a wild animal that trusts you, but never consider it a "pet" like you would a domesticated species.
>>2113007
No it's not ok to befriend wild animals, especially ones considered threats. Coyotes can and have killed people. You shouldn't encourage them on your property or interact with wild animals like coyotes, bears, foxes, raccoons, etc. You just do more harm than good. You're risking their lives and possibly putting other people in danger of being hurt.
The best thing to do with wild animals is leave them alone or if you must, relocate them if they are a problem. If they are hurt, you call a rehab center for wildlife.
>>2112750
Raise it from birth and cut it's nuts off and you may be ok.
The real question is why would you want one, and the answer is to be a special snowflake you fag.
You can train a wild animal, but you can never domesticate it. Domestication is accomplished by breeding.
The fox might one day decide to kill a small child or animal. Not much can stop that. It might also run away, then search for other humans to feed it.
Very dangerous.
it's just a dog that won't act right. it's pretty much the same as going to the pound and asking for the worst one. just walk in the door and be all "yeah, I want a garbage dog. got any you were looking forward to euthanizing? I want that dog and also do you know anything I could feed it to make its piss smell more" and then breaking a minor law on the way home because it's almost certainly illegal to have a coyote as a pet.
>>2113010
You sound like a real pretentious faggot
>>2112750
Dogs and coyotes are the same species, there's no point of keeping a coyote, it's just a more aggressive doggo.
>>2113010
How the fuck do you get killed by a coyote?
>>2113071
By being a weakling who finds themselves stranded in the woods
+a few more coyotes
>>2113071
Pretty sure he's pulling that out of his ass. If one of these fuckers tried to attack me I think I could handle it pretty easily.... It'd be different if you were attacked by a group at once.. But their usually solitary hunters, so not likely.
>>2113071
It's usually children.
>>2113061
>Dogs and coyotes are the same species
>I failed third grade
Ever smelled coyote piss? Obviously not or you'd have your answer
>>2113112
See it's kind of funny because coyotes, dogs, and wolves can and do interbreed. Not being able to interbreed is pretty much the only requirement for being a new species.
>>2113120
>Not being able to interbreed is pretty much the only requirement for being a new species.
>I failed third grade and didn't make it into college.
dogs and coyotes are the same genus, not the same species, you farting retard..
>>2113079
You would not be able to. Just one can take a full grown deer down. They also have much better senses and greater agility. These aren't like domesticated dog attacks where you can kick it in the throat or choke it. If it wants you dead you're fucked. You better fight hard and have enough strength to take down a wild animal that wants you dead. At least have a knife.
>>2113123
I think your mistaking coyotes for wolves.
>>2113123
Dude, relax, it's just a coyote not Terminator
>>2113135
Nope. Coyotes are pussies but you're not getting away without getting fucked up a bit.
>>2113146
>shitposting from your phone
>>2113112
>can produce fertile offspring of both sexes
>lol, uh, different species guiz, some old guy said so in 1823. I mean, who needs genetical classification? Dogs and coyotes have different physical characteristics, so they must be different species, right?
Please refrain from using outdated data, Linnaeusfags please go.
>>2113026
Perfectly stated
>>2113055
what's the pretense doublefaggot?
>>2113201
Dogs and coyotes aren't considered the same species.
Fertile offspring =/= same species.
>>2113121
you're mad because you know he has a point and you don't want to do the work to better yourself.
but it's very easy to google some taxonomy and see how arbitrary those labels are.
Lmfao....current systematics say there are 100's of theories for what a species is....problem is that there can never be a fing discrete answer, its a continuous definition because life is dynamic....dog-wolf harder to disambiguate from dog-cat
>>2113208
Coyotes aren't considered the same species simply because they were classified as such in 1823, before the age of genetics, and have not been revised since.
Linnaean taxonomy is pleb-tier shit from the 18th century.
>>2113010
>1 vegan folk singer
>people
What are you, her mom
>>2112750
As someone whose family had an actual wolfdog (not a GSD/husky mix, a true low-content wolfdog) due to my dad's retarded wolf obsession bordering on fetish, no.
You will get a unpredictable animal that can't truly be trained, will ruin your house and is impossible to housebreak (you will have to build an outdoor enclosure, this is a fact), is nervous and shy around strangers and scared of pretty much anything new that happens ever.
It will never be a "pet", a companion animal at most if you're lucky. And if it ever nips anyone or someone just decides to lie about it, you can say goodbye.
>>2113313
There are several things beyond producing offspring that help differentiate species from one another. Please take a college-level biology class before you shitpost online.
They're opportunists. They're like dogs that will never love you and take advantage of you whenever they get the chance
Just get a light brown mutt with pointy ears and put a little bandana on him, and your life will be happier than with a coyote. Pic related: my Little Buddy.
>>2113356
In college-level biology classes, they teach pleb-tier shit from the 18th century, among many other things. The concept of 'species' has accreted vast legal weight over the decades but does not seem as scientific as it did back then. Life is a bit too complicated and squishy to be stuffed into a binary classification tree. Can you explain why coyotes and wolves are not dogs without appealing to authority?
>>2113356
According to the BSC, which is the most widely accepted definition of a species, and the only one that modern biologists use. A 'species' is merely a panmictic population of organisms. Dogs and coyotes form a panmictic population, and therefore are the same species.
Unless you use some alternative hipster definition of 'species', dogs and coyotes are the same species. And even if dogs and coyotes don't fit the criteria for being the same species under your special snowflake definition, no-one would care, since you're merely moving the goalposts of what a 'species' is.
The only reason dogs and coyotes are not classified under the same species, like dogs and wolves are, is merely because some old dude said so in 1823 and no-one has bothered to correct him yet. Please refrain from using two century old information as if it is relevant to modern science.
>>2113079
Look it up. Adults have been killed by coyotes. You could absolutely kick the fucking shit out of one of them and at worst, get torn up a bit but a pack of coyotes can wreck your shit.
>>2113364
So they're a cat in dog form?
>>2112750
i have a female coyote from virginia as a pet. i got it from a shelter surprisingly. the volunteers at the shelter said "you dont want her she bites". this dog was insane. she totally destroyed my first apartment because i kept "trusting her" to roam free when i wasnt home. she ate the linoleum, broke out a window, ate the kitchenette cabinets, ripped the carpetting down the middle of the room, destroyed my favorite green transparent ps2 controller etc. it took like 6 months before she would even let me touch her without pissing and shitting. she is on bite lists in 4 different countys. its a nightmare to take her to the vet.
fast forward 6 years. she is a great dog with my family. she is very skittish around unknown people. she rarely has peepee accidents maybe like once every 6 months. she has to be crated if she is alone in the house. she gets along great with other dogs.
tons of people ask if she is a coyote at the dog park and i say she is an Appalachian hunting feist kek
>>2114505
post pics
>>2114440
>he doesn't know that most species can breed with sister species.
it's called a hybrid. It happens when two different species breed.
>you're merely moving the goalposts of what a 'species' is.
yes, that's exactly what you're doing.
>>2113071
Only time I've ever heard about anyone getting killed by coyotes, it was a small child and a really bad drought year (not enough small rodents to eat). Coyotes don't go after people. They may eat your cat though. But only if they're starving and can't find any rodents.
>>2114605
iirc some Canadian chick got killed and eaten a few years back.
but yeah, the yotes have to be starving before they'll take down a person.
>>2114525
>hybrid
Many organisms can create hybrids, donkeys and horses for example, yet these organisms are not the same species due to their offspring being infertile.
For two organisms to be considered in the same species, the offspring needs to be fertile, coyote x dog offspring of both sexes are fully fertile and can reproduce, meaning that they are the same species.
>'yes, that's exactly what you're doing.'
Yes, because classifying animals into species using the method which has been the standard method for biologists since 1942 is 'moving the goalposts'.
Also, coyotes and dogs aren't even classed sister species under the current classification.
Please refrain from embarrassing yourself any further.
>>2114689
>the offspring needs to be fertile
bullshit.
if you'd like me to educate you with a list of species that produce viable hybrids I can.
or you can go on Wikipedia and find out for your own self.
>because classifying animals into species using the method which has been the standard method for biologists since 1942 is 'moving the goalposts'.
that's not what you did though.
you pretended to synonymize two species for your own convenience because you can't stand people thinking you're stupid.
the fact is coyotes and wolves don't breed often enough to threaten the independence of either population.
hell, cattle and buffalo actually breed often enough to threaten the population, and we still consider them not just different species but different genera. Even though their offspring are fertile.
anywho, in trying to look smart you're doing the opposite. Anyone with an 8th grade education could see your mistake.
>>2114693
>coyotes and wolves
>coyotes and dogs
though both are true....
>>2114689
>yet these organisms are not the same species due to their offspring being infertile.
savannah cats are the fertile offspring of domestic cats and servals, even though they're not even in the same genus.
>>2114697
if he wants to argue the point, most fish and bird species produce viable hybrids.
it's not as common in mammals but it certainly happens. Particularly among carnivorans but also pretty often among ungulates.
>>2114689
>the method which has been the standard method for biologists since 1942
it is not and never has been the standard
>>2114703
it was the standard in like 1600 when we thought god created all animals.
>>2114703
his description isn't bad, he just doesn't know what "panmixic" means.
>>2113145
Coyotes will not do fuck all to a human unless it's a child or a very very elderly person.
Why? Because it's not in their fucking nature to. They will choose flight 100% of the time when faced with an adult human. If it's a child or dog then mayyybeeeeeee.
a single coyote is not going to take down a fucking adult deer.
>>2114710
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Mitchell
>>2114713
From a link in your article
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans
>Coyote attacks on humans are uncommon and rarely cause serious injuries
>>2114720
what's your point?
are you pretending I said they're common or something?
>>2113434
Species is an arbitrary category, you can't just say my arbitrary definitoion based on the simple fact that they interbreed in certain circumstances is better than the current scientific one.
>>2114713
>vegan hippie
>high as fuck guaranteed
>hybrid wolf/coyote
derpherpin.
>>2114740
yeah, the article refers to them as coywolves throughout, despite the fact that it also cites references saying they weren't.
>>2113123
Are you retarded? Coyotes here are tiny as fuck and maybe 20 pounds.
They also live everywhere. If they were capable of killing people in anything but freak circumstances, you'd hear about it.
>>2114665
>>2114713
Read the wiki and it wasn't even a coyote. It was a coywolf which is a dangerous wolf/coyote cross breed.
>It is possible a coywolf was stalking her at this stage. At 3:02, a hiking couple named Mike and Gayle, by this time on the access road to the car park, moved out of the way and photographed two coywolves that walked towards them along the road, going in the opposite direction. Trent University's Environmental and Life Sciences graduate program and a research scientist for the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources Brent Patterson later commented that the male hiker's photo showed two coywolves were having an extraordinary lack of fear, with one having what verged on a dominant attitude toward humans. It is believed these coyotes encountered the oncoming Mitchell on the access road a few minutes later, when the couple heard what they thought could be either animal noises or screams in the distance. They reported the noises by telephone at the car park. A group of four other hikers arrived in the carpark, where they heard about the possible screams in the distance from the couple. After several minutes' walk along the access road they began to find personal items of Mitchell's, including keys and a small knife (believed to have been used by her in an attempt to defend herself as she was forced back up the access road and onto the Skyline Trail). As the hikers turned into the clearing at the head of the trail, they saw torn pieces of bloodied clothing and a large amount of blood along the ground. A washroom in the clearing had blood on the door. At 3:25 they found Mitchell lying nearby among trees, with a coywolf standing over her. It was only after repeated charges by the three young men that the coywolf could be made to move away from her. She was conscious and able to speak with the rescuers. The coywolf remained close by, growling and unafraid until a shotgun was fired at it by a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer who had arrived.
>>2114745
the different types are considerably fuckin different. Coyote/wolf is more than double the size of a regular coyote, which is a pretty god damn huge difference.. There are no coywolr or any sort of hybrid anywhere near my area(born raised on a farm).
If you hear yipyipyip it's a regular ol' worthless piece of shit coyote.
>>2114697
The thing with domesticated animals is that they're usually highly hybridized to start off with during artificial selection, domestic cats may well share a lot of ancestry and genetics with servals and other African wild cats as a result of being hybrids themselves, allowing for ease of successful hybridization. Though, I wouldn't really consider them the same species due to large amounts of reproductive isolation between the two populations. They physically can form fertile offspring if forced to, but they won't readily do so in nature due to many factors preventing it.
And I kinda misworded what I meant in order to simplify it, not all organisms that can create fertile hybrids are the same species, I was trying to differentiate between non-fertile hybrids formed between two species (like that anon seemed to be implying) and fertile hybrids. The species classification is only really granted for populations that will produce fertile offspring naturally between themselves and have no genetic flow between other populations.
While coyote x dog hyrbids are fairly rare due to humans. An example of populations that freely interbreed would be coyotes and North American wolves. Without human interaction, coyotes and dogs would have similar interactions as they do with wolves, they wouldn't interbred as freely as they do with wolves though, mostly due to a larger genetic difference and behavioural differences, but it would still happen if allowed to.
The idea of a 'species' in itself is fairly misleading, a classifications of gene pools would be more accurate t b h.
>>2112750
russians domesticated bears. go for it. dont listen to these gender fluid scum
>>2114769
>The idea of a 'species' in itself is fairly misleading, a classifications of gene pools would be more accurate t b h.
Anyone that isn't an idiot knows this and it's very much implied. Species is a very easy way to quickly identify for the sake of communication ease.
Unless you're talking about writing a research paper there's no reason to go further than species identification.
>>2114770
keepin coyotes as a pet is something that can and has been done in the past. It's not unheard of.
That said, you might need to check the law of such a thing. You can't keep any random fucking animal you see or find as a pet. People are able to get around this is the animal is a rescue and can't live on it's own.
It' for the same reason you can't go to a pet store and get a crow or cardinal.
>>2114773
WHY IS TYPING ON A PHONE SO FUCKING HARD
>>2114773
ive heard of people even owning african wild dogs. it's a crap shoot. the animal could be shit and it could also be awesome. i'd treat a coyote like a cat. youre not guarenteed to get a good cat. the thing could be a feral bastard.
>>2114775
The only wild animals I have kept as pets were a racoon and a squirrel. Coons are fucking hilarious animals and make for great pets(if you get them young and handle em daily).
Same thing for squirrels. Just make sure to wear thick clothing when you handle them. I use to sit and play counterstrike as my squirrel just fucking bolted all over me like I was a fuckin tree. He also fell asleep all the time on my shoulder. I did not get him as a baby however, he was my grandfathers and he was too old to take care of him anymore. Squirrels live a really reallly realllyyy long time, have incredibly sharp claws and incredibly sharp teeth. Lucky for me, this guy was extremely tamed by him and didn't bite or get aggressive at all.
Taking in a wild animal as a pet takes a great deal of dedication to that animal. Your average person would fail miserably. You need to spend hours a day with your animals, take an extreme amount of effort and money to prepare their food, and be able to pick up on the tiniest of details in body language or you're going to get bit/maimed/hurt. Even the most experienced animal handler is going to get hurt a few times from a wild animal.
if you cannot spend that much time or money on your animal then don't even fucking bother. You have to be a certain kind of person to work with a wild animal.
If you live in a town or city also just fuck off.
>>2114792
i heard male coons get whiley when they hit puberty. is that true? i worked at an applebees and my crazy russian manager said she had raccoons.
>>2114837
They're prone to get nippy and moody even when they're fixed. Girls are worse
>>2114837
>>2114839
haha yes. That's part of their charm.
never ever fuck with an eating coon. Like don't try to pet them, don't sneak up behind them, don't make any sudden movements. A lot of "experts" claim wild animals don't have bit inhibitions and will always bit to kill/harm but that's simply not true. If a racoon wanted to fuck your shit up they will. But if they are just being grumpy they will only sorta half bite or nip.
once my cousin didn't realize my guy was eating and went to pick him up from behind and holy shit I never laughed so hard in my life. The poor guy ended up running for his life with a racoon attached to his ass, teeth completely sunken in to his cheeks.
He couldn't sit properly for weeks.
Protip: If your wild animal bites someone don't tell the authorities or doctors. That's a quick ticket to them getting put down and getting a large fine.
Wanting to raise coyotes is like wanting to FUCKING raise cockroaches. I live in near the Colorado/New Mexico boarder and coyotes are pathogen carrying shit-class predators that will kill off your pets and stock like locust. To this day I have no idea why fur-fags get such a hard-on for these vermin.
P.S. Wolves are O.K. by me.
I hope this is thread bait :(
>>2113079
>pff, I could take down an individual of that pack-hunting species any day!
>>2114897
are you fucking retarded?
You can say the same thing about domestic cat's and domestic dogs .
Coyotes are pest in a lot of places and are shoot on site. If have only shot 2 coyotes, but that's because they were harassing my other animals(chickens and the like).
.
>>2114897
>comparing raising roaches to coyotes
Well fuck you too
>>2114901
>thinking that's a coyote
Well I mean, ok? That's clearly not a regular coyote and is a larger hybrid. It has more in common with a wolf than a coyote.
Depending on your region a coyote is going to be about 15-20 pounds in the midwest and prairie regions. or up to 40-50 in southwest US where they are most definitely hybrids.
Even then they are much more skiddish than a wolf. A coyote won't travel in large packs. In fact, they usually only pair up. Coyotes are rarely seen in groups larger than 3.
I live in indiana and the coyotes here are tiny as fuck. Wolves haven't been here in a long long long time so the inbreeding hasn't affected them much.
>>2114897
Someone's buttmad their outdoor cat got eaten by coyotes. :)
They're shit pets. They're incredibly hard to train, and tend to be destructive. They're very smart, which adds to their destructiveness and makes them hard to contain. They're also incredibly neurotic. Yelling at one or accidentally hurting it can undo years of trust, and they'll never forgive you. If they see or smell puppies they'll start puking everywhere. They smell bad, and their piss is even worse.
>>2114746
from the same article:
>Various other proposed explanations were the coyotes might have been wolf crosses, rabid, immature, starving or protecting a carcass.[8] None of these suggestions were subsequently borne out, causing a reassessment of potential risk to humans from coyote attacks.
>proposed explanations were the coyotes might have been wolf crosses
>None of these suggestions were subsequently borne out
>>2114747
>it's a regular ol' worthless piece of shit coyote.
which has wolf dna and is as much a coywolf as the one(s) that killed that girl.
>>2114990
>as much a coywolf
Are you fucking retarded? This is literally like saying we are as much an ape because we share common ancestor.
"has wolf dna" =/= "is a wolf"
Again, a regular straight up coyote is 15-20pounds, small, and thin. A fucking coywolf is upwards of 50 pounds. Some even up to fucking 70.
Seriously. That's like saying a chihuahua is the same as a german shepherd.
>>2115020
I mean I agree with you on the coyote stuff.
But we ARE apes just as much as a chimp or etc is.
>>2115020
I agree entirely.
if you go back and look at the animal(s) that killed the Canadian singer you'll find that they aren't coywolves at all.
they just have a bit of wolf dna, as do all coyotes.
or at least that's what investigators from NatGeo said.
as I mentioned, the article calls them coywolves and then cites references saying they weren't.
>>2115023
imagine you had to say this to an alien that's upset one of those hippie songwriters got lost in the woods between shows.
Did a chimp kill him or a US Marine with a m4 carbine do it? Does it matter? They have a common ancestor after all.
Granted, a chimp can be extremely dangerous but this isn't planet of the apes. If an ape went against a human with all it's naturally given advantages of technology, the human would be considerably more dangerous.
We are not the same as a chimp as much a coyote is the same as a wolf or coywolf.
>>2115032
he's saying that humans are a type of ape, and he's right.
we're also a type of chimp.
>>2115028
>you'll find that they aren't coywolves at all.
You're literally lying at this point. It clearly says they were coywolves and that there is proof of it since they ended up killing the animals and finding the singers blood on then,
>caught in leg-hold traps before a large (42 lb) male was similarly dispatched five kilometres away on November 14.
>Scientific investigation of the carcasses determined that three, including the first and last accounted for, were linked to the attack on Mitchell by her blood on their coats and other forensic evidence
>reference for the article title "Coyotes, with some wolf on the side"
http://thechronicleherald.ca/thenovascotian/924160-coyotes-with-some-wolf-on-the-side
>they just have a bit of wolf dna, as do all coyotes.
The animals in question are, at this point in time, different enough to be a completely new species than regular coyotes according to that article.
Again, a 42lb coywolf is not the same as a 18lb coyote. Physical and mental differences abound.
>>2115037
if you read the rest of the article you'll find that:
1. the claim that they're coywolves was found to be false. (as I posted above and as the article mentions).
2. coyotes in the area are larger than average, which appears to be due to normal adaptation and lack of hunting.
look, read the whole article is all I'm saying.
stop trying to win arguments because honestly I don't care if you can read or not and nobody here knows who you are.
you are anonymous, it simply doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. I'm trying to help you understand a thing, that's all. If you really have to be right then get a trip and we'll filter you and ban you like every other annoying retard that has to be right here.
>>2115036
>a type of
What are you even arguing here? That humans are exactly the same as chimps? Fucking seriously? We have similar DNA but are completely fucking different and our own thing.
We are not fucking chimps. We are humans. A coywolf is not a fucking coyote. It's something completely different capable of completely different shit.
Saying just because something shares similar ancestors and DNA means they are capable of doing what the other can... is just.. it's stupid. That's all there is to it.
>>2115040
What the fuck are you talking about?
"So I interviewed the foremost expert in the area of coyote/wolf hybridization, Bradley White of Trent University. His research is crucial to the CBC documentary.
My first question was: “Are Cape Breton coyotes coydogs, as my tutorial leader at Dalhousie had alleged in 1992?”
“No, they are coywolves, part western coyote, part eastern wolf. We have taken samples of DNA from the Cape Breton animals. Dogs are domesticated from gray wolves and so it is easier to differentiate their genetic material from the genetic material of western coyotes and eastern wolves.
“Gray wolves evolved in Eurasia and came to North America while eastern wolves and western coyotes evolved solely in North America. These two species (eastern wolves and western coyotes) are therefore closely related.
“They probably hybridized continually in areas where their ranges overlapped, especially in the ice ages. When the coywolf first appeared in southern Ontario, farmers began referring to them as coydogs. When we examine the DNA of these animals (coywolves) we do find dog Y chromosomes, but the dog contribution to this animal is insignificant. The morphology and behaviour indicate that functional wolf characteristics are present in eastern coyotes and this is more important than trying to estimate a percentage. Humans and chimpanzees share about 99% of their genetic material and it is the one per cent difference that is critical.”"
>>2115040
>if you're right or wrong. I'm trying to help you understand a thing, that's all. I
No you're not. What the fuck is wrong with you.
Can you not fucking read? Where are you getting your fucking info? Literally everything says that these were coywolf that attacked the singer.(eastern coyote, the other name). These are not the same as a regular coyote.
Again, what the fuck is wrong with you?
>>2115041
>That humans are exactly the same as chimps?
that's not what he said.
he said we're a type of ape.
that doesn't mean we can do everything any other ape can do, it just means your example is bad.
>>2115044
>What the fuck are you talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that all coyotes have wolf dna, so by that measure all coyotes are coywolves.
since we agree that "some wolf dna" doesn't a coywolf make, then we're in agreement that the animals that killed the Canadian bint weren't coywolves.
as the dudes from NatGeo said.
>>2115046
>that's not what he said.
he said we're a type of ape.
Again, so what? I have never argued that we didn't have a common ancestor. Just that a chimp and a human are clearly different and not the same exact thing. We are as much a chimp as a coyote is a coywolf. Sharing DNA and common ancestors we still have wildly different capabilities, just like the coyote and the coywolf.
>I'm talking about the fact that all coyotes have wolf dna, so by that measure all coyotes are coywolves.
Again, what in fucking christ is wrong with you. Chimps and humans are different species despite having 99% the same dna. You literally can't say we are the same species. If a coywolf and coyote share 99% the same DNA as a wolf it doesn't mean they are fucking wolves. It means, a gray wolf, a coyote, and a coywolf are all different fucking species.
>since we agree that "some wolf dna" doesn't a coywolf make
What?
> then we're in agreement that the animals that killed the Canadian bint weren't coywolves.
No, we fucking aren't you retard. The coyote species did not kill the singer. The coywolf species did.
Because a wolf is 80 pounds
A coyote is 20 pounds
A "coyote wolf" coywolf "hybrid" is 50 pounds.
>as the dudes from NatGeo said.
What in the fuck are you talking about? You keep saying this but it clearly isn't a thing you have sourced. The above articles I have sourced CLEARLY STATE the coywolf is it's own thing separate from coyotes.
>>2115049
>The coywolf species did
ok, I lol'd out loud at that.
look, all coyotes have wolf dna, so the animals you're talking about have MORE wolf dna.
Like say, one parent is a wolf.
the animals that killed the girl weren't half wolf. They weren't 1/4 wolf. They weren't even 1/8 wolf. They had a wolf great great great grandpa if you will.
this might be beyond you, it's fine.
if you want to believe she was killed by coywolves and not "pure" coyotes that you somehow think exist then go ahead. It really doesn't matter.
I think you're a retard, pretty much anyone with a normal IQ probably agrees by now if they're reading your crap.
>>2115050
> one parent is a wolf.
No, it isn't One parent is a fucking coywolf and the other is a coywolf.
>Eastern wolves and western coyotes diverged, from Dr. White’s estimates, about 300,000 years ago, not very long in genetic terms.
>the animals that killed the girl weren't half wolf.
Holy shit you're retarded. Read above
>if you want to believe she was killed by coywolves and not "pure" coyotes
Again are you not fucking getting this shit you fucking moron? A coyote is NOT A FUCKING COYWOLF. THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.
>normal IQ probably agrees by now if they're reading your crap.
Except maybe
>foremost expert in the area of coyote/wolf hybridization, Bradley White
>>2115050
seriously, you realize a coywolf isn't the same thing as a fucking mule right?
You're that retarded. That fucking dumb.
>>2115051
again, calling them coywolves because they have wolf ancestry when every single coyote in the world has wolf ancestry doesn't really work.
if wolf dna is what makes a coywolf, then coyotes don't exist, only coywolves.
>>2115052
>seriously, you realize a coywolf isn't the same thing as a fucking mule right?
that's exactly what I'm saying.
all coyotes are coywolves by your definition. Not even being sarcastic here, there is no such thing as a coyote by your reasoning.
>>2115041
>We are not fucking chimps. We are humans.
True, but we ARE apes.
>>2115056
>True, but we ARE apes
if you look into it you'll find we're also chimps....
>>2115053
>cestry when every single coyote in the world has wolf ancestry doesn't really work.
That's... not what's going on you dumb fuck. Domestic dogs all have gray wolf ancestory and they vary greatly between one another in size and mental capacity.
>if wolf dna is what makes a coywolf, then coyotes don't exist, only coywolves.
......
>all coyotes are coywolves by your definition
You have absolutely no idea how DNA works and species id works do you?
>>2115056
>>2115057
hominids, as in great apes, =/= chimp
you fuckers are killing me today.
>>2115060
>You have absolutely no idea how DNA works and species id works do you?
thank you, you're seriously making me giggle today.
feels good.
>hominids, as in great apes, =/= chimp
indeed!
but then nobody said they were equal, did they?
if humans are a type of chimp, that doesn't mean chimps are a type of human, no? or is that too much for your little chimp brain? XD
>>2115063
>if humans are a type of chimp, that doesn't mean chimps are a type of human, no?
We aren't you dumb fuck, we are part of the great apes.
>but then nobody said they were equal, did they?
Literally you are, right now. You are literally saying chimps are a type of human and ...
>>2115057
>if you look into it you'll find we're also chimps..
Common chimpanzee is part of the great ape. Which means they are not human, but related. That does not mean we are chimps, it means we are both fucking apes.
You are seriously the most retarded person to ever live.
I bet it wouldn't take all that much to tame this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVE9qfg7yI
>>2115065
>We aren't you dumb fuck, we are part of the great apes.
lol
mmmm
>You are literally saying chimps are a type of human and ...
not so great at reading, are ya?
>That does not mean we are chimps, it means we are both fucking apes.
we are apes because we descended from apes.
did we descend from chimps?
if we did that would mean we're chimps, for the same reason we're apes.
I'll leave that up to you to ignore.
ignorance seems to be your speciality.
>>2115067
>did we descend from chimps?
no, we didn't.
Holy shit are you retarded or what.
common chimps and humans are Hominidae. Chimps are a sister group to humans, which is why we are so familiar. We did not fucking come from chimps. We share common ancestry.
is this so hard for you to understand? Are you 12?
>>2115070
FUCK, UI meant
>common chimps and humans are Homininae
Our common ancestor, 14-15 million years ago is what we came from. We are not chimps you dumb fucker. We did not "descend" from chimps.
>>2115070
yes, the meat of the disagreement....
we share a common ancestor with Pan.
was that common ancestor a chimp or a human?
if you take a second to read up on it (and I know you won't) you'll find we mated with chimps repeatedly.
which means we descended from chimps.
which means we're chimps.
>>2115067
>>2115073
>chimpanzee–human last common ancestor, or CHLCA, is the last common ancestor shared by the extant Homo (human) and Pan (chimpanzee) genera of hominini. Due to complex hybrid speciation, it is not possible to give a precise estimate on the age of this ancestral individual. While "original divergence" between populations may have occurred as early as 13 million years ago (Miocene), hybridization may have been ongoing until as recent as 4 million years ago
Homo sapiens did not come from Pan troglodytes
>However, to date no fossil has been identified as a probable candidate for the CHLCA or the taxon Pan prior.
if you don't understand how this could relate to the same type of identification of coywolf and coyotes I don't know what else to say.
Humans(homo sapies) and chimpanzees(pan troglodytes) came from CHLCA
Coyotes(C. latrans) and Coywolf(C. latrans x C. lupus) came from GRAY WOLVES(C. lupus).
>>2115077
and thus Cope's Rule that specialists become extinct faster than generalists.
Evolution favors large specialists but extinction selects for small generalists.
>>2115075
Not even that anon but what even
>we share a common ancestor with Pan.
was that common ancestor a chimp or a human?
Neither.
>if you take a second to read up on it (and I know you won't) you'll find we mated with chimps repeatedly.
Source or absolute BS
>>2115078
>Homo sapiens did not come from Pan troglodytes
Pan prior is indistinguishable from Pan troglodytes
>if you don't understand how this could relate to the same type of identification of coywolf and coyotes I don't know what else to say
that is exactly the understanding I'm trying to inflict on your poor battered mind.
if a coywolf is identified by wolf admixture then all coyotes are coywolves.
if you set an arbitrary wolf admixture standard to coywolves then the coyotes that killed that girl aren't coywolves by your own standards.
you propose a weight standard that doesn't match up with the dna standard, and that's what the NatGeo scientists decided and I happen to agree with. The coyotes that killed the girl weren't any more wolf than any other yotes, no matter what they weigh.
>>2115080
>Source or absolute BS
I'm pretty sure Wikipedia has a huge article on the subject.
if your search engine doesn't work I'll google it for you.
How the fuck did this thread devolve into full-blown autism about whether we evolved from chimps or not?
>>2115075
>we share a common ancestor with Pan.
was that common ancestor a chimp or a human?
It was neither, it was it's own fucking thing
>you'll find we mated with chimps repeatedly.
>Due to complex hybrid speciation
>hybridization may have been ongoing until as recent as 4 million years ago
Hybridization not with chimps but the CHLCA
Like say the hybrdization between coyotes and wolves 300,000 years ago. Meaning a coywolf is well on it's way to being it's own thing, if it isn't already. It's different enough to classify it as it's species. Saying a coyote is the same thing as a coywolf simply because they share an ancestor is simply retarded.
Again, it would be like saying a chimp is a human because of they have the same ancestor. We aren't fucking chimps, and chimp's aren't humans.
>>2115083
it was a question of whether or not coyotes attack adult humans.
from there it devolved into semantics with some fool saying coywolves are a species of their own.
then hybrids and thus chimps because humans are chimp hybrids.
>>2115083
Because this fucking idiot doesn't understand how taxonomy works at fucking all or why a coyote is different than a coywolf.
The importance there being coywolf are larger and stronger and have a different fight or flight instinct.
I think the name is just confusing him and his child like understanding of animal classifications.
>>2115085
>Saying a coyote is the same thing as a coywolf simply because they share an ancestor is simply retarded.
that's not why I said they're the same thing.
every coyote in north America has hybridized far more recently than 300000 ya.
in fact all of them have dna from wolf matings in the last thousand years and most of them have wolf dna from the last 100 years.
>>2115087
I've actually taught college level taxonomy and I've co-authored a paper naming a new species.
I'm trying to teach you, whether you like it or not.
>>2115086
>semantics with some fool saying coywolves are a species of their own.
>semantics
Again do you not get that a coywolf is considerably larger than a coyote and thinks more like a wolf?
These are literal facts. You are not fucking providing any sources for anything you have said. You just say shit that's retarded and then tell others to google it.
>then hybrids and thus chimps because humans are chimp hybrids.
It's literally just the name that's confusing you isn't it?
Humans are not chimp hybrids We did not fucking descend from chimpanzees..
>>2115090
>Again do you not get that a coywolf is considerably larger than a coyote and thinks more like a wolf?
I get what you're saying.
how much wolf dna does a coywolf have?
50%?
25%?
how much is needed to increase the weight and aggression?
the thing you don't seem to understand is that weight and aggression have nothing to do with wolf dna.
as the article says.
>>2115090
>Humans are not chimp hybrids We did not fucking descend from chimpanzees
if you'd like I can google that for you.
it will only take a second.
just admit that you're too lazy or stupid and I'll do it.
>>2115088
>in fact all of them have dna from wolf matings
Again, dogs all share a common ancestor (either from a wolf or the same ancestor as a wolf) but that common strand of DNA but are still vastly different. Dog domestication has only happened in the last 130,000 years.
>>2115089
Then all your students are fucking retarded because of you.
And if you are a teacher and wrote "papers" you are simply ignoring experts in their field.
"They found that our study subjects were mainly eastern coyote, but all also had western coyote and eastern/red wolf genetic influence as well. White believes the eastern coyote should be classified as its own species because all of the samples from the Northeast (including from Massachusetts, New York, Maine, and New Brunswick) grouped more closely to each other than to western coyotes or wolves. Interestingly, biologists call these same Canids “Tweed wolves” in Ontario, and White notes that they are a product of hybridization between eastern coyotes and eastern wolves.
>>2115095
>dogs all share a common ancestor (either from a wolf or the same ancestor as a wolf) but that common strand of DNA but are still vastly different.
yet they're the same species as wolves, and are not considered wolves despite the fact that dogs and wolves have mated as recently as five minutes ago
>you are simply ignoring experts in their field
nope, you're misunderstanding them.
the coyotes that killed the girl haven't been named a new species whether they should be or not. Until they are it doesn't matter what any scientist thinks off the record.
if they aren't coyotes then the "experts" need to formally name them something else.
until they do they're just coyotes.
>>2115096
>to date no fossil has been identified as a probable candidate for the CHLCA or the taxon Pan prior
simply because no fossil that we could find would be distinguishable from Pan troglodytes.
because we repeatedly mated with "Pan prior" for millions of years, and during those millions of years all we find are fossils of Pan troglodytes.
meaning "Pan prior" is Pan troglodytes
>>2115082
Go ahead
>>2115099
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/science/18evolve.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>how much wolf dna does a coywolf have?
>50%?
>25%?
That's not how this works teach. Could be a single percent to completely change a species.
>the thing you don't seem to understand is that weight and aggression have nothing to do with wolf dna.
Literally basic understanding of animals to get this. Wolves are carnivores. Coyotes are omnivores. Carnivores will attack anything smaller than them unless in a group. Coyotes DO NOT hunt in packs. If they do, it only 2-3 coyotes opposed to a pack of wolves which run 5-10. The bigger an animal is, the bigger prey it will hunt. This is fucking simple.
Do you teach at a community college? Or lower? Do you teach online courses for Artizona college?
>>2115102
>Could be a single percent to completely change a species
you're confusing the amount of dna a wolf shares with a coyote (~99%) with the amount that differs.
the amount of difference is near 1%, but we measure percentages of that 1%
that's the difference between wolf dna and yote dna, and that's what I'm talking about when I say wolf dna.
what percentage of that 1% difference do they share? How much of that 1% do we need to swap to change their weight and behavior? I already know, I'm trying to get you to think.
the line is arbitrary.
>Literally basic understanding of animals to get this.
yes, I'm trying to walk you past basic understanding to something a bit more complex.
how much pit bull does a dog need to have before it starts mauling babbys? How much wolf does a coyote need to have before it kills aspiring Canadian pop stars?
once you answer that we can go back to discussing the fact that the yotes in question didn't have that much.
>>2115100
>Two Splits Between Human and Chimp Lines Suggested
>Suggested
No hard evidence just more speculation and theory of their genomes. Literally all of his studies involve interbreeding and hybridization so he seems to love that theory a whole lot.
>>2115106
>No hard evidence just more speculation and theory of their genomes.
yes, if science disagrees with you then it's "just a theory."
I was raised a creationist, I understand.
>>2115098
But there are no fossils of chimps either.
>>2115108
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_teeth.html
>>2115104
>something a bit more complex.
>how much pit bull does a dog need to have before it starts mauling babby
What the fuck are you even talking about? I never fucking said "once you get to x% then it starts being a problem!"
If you don't understand why a coywolf being larger than a coyote because of it's wolf hybridization mean's it's more likely to attack larger prey you have to be a complete fucking idiot.
It's simply bigger. Bigger animals require bigger prey. Animals that scare away the smaller coyote don't scare away a coywolf. because a coywolf is a larger species. Even if it had the exact same instincts of a regular coyote it would still be more dangerous simply because it's fucking bigger you idiot.
You keep making up these retarded arguments that no one has said.
>>2115111
>I never fucking said "once you get to x% then it starts being a problem!"
but you should have.
>>2115107
>just a theory."
There simply isn't enough evidence to say how correct it is. Do you not understand that?
>>2115113
if you'd like I can show you about 10 other papers confirming that one.
would that make you happy or would you just raise the bar?
hmmm, creationist?
you know you can google this stuff yourself before saying something stupid, right?
>>2115098
>we mated with chimps because we mated with chimps
>simply because no fossil that we could find would be distinguishable from Pan troglodytes.
>SCIENCE
>>2115116
yeah, sorry about that.
for recent paleontology dna is way more informative than fossils. It's a real problem.
>>2115115
>if you'd like I can show you about 10 other papers confirming that one.
And I can show you 10 other papers saying something different.
Because holy shit there isn't enough evidence to say with confidence how we came to be as a species.
What you're talking about is the definition of faith.
>>2115118
>And I can show you 10 other papers saying something different
I'd love to read them.
you know, calling your bluff and stuff.
I already know the only articles you'll find are from the 1800's and you don't know how to find them anyways.
>>2115117
>for recent paleontology dna is way more informative than fossil
Like say, the methods Bradley White and rutledge are using to support the species identification of coywolves?
or are you choosing to completely ignore them and all of their research as well. Because fuckkkk that shit right? Only research on chimps can disprove that coywolf is not a coyote! You can only trust research trying to connect 14 million years of breeding and hybridization of an ancestor that can't possibly be conclusive with the little evidence we have.
>Trent University Wolf experts, Dr. Linda Rutledge and Dr. Bradley White have come forth with the most detailed research yet revealing that the Eastern Wolves(C lycaon) found in Algonquin Provincial Park in Eastern Canada are in fact a distinct species of wolf and not simply a subspecies of the Gray Wolf
I mean, how can these two people not understand the subject as well as you do? I'm sure their research couldn't possibly be as hard hitting as the speculation spanning 14 million years can be.
>>2115123
>the methods Bradley White and rutledge are using to support the species identification of coywolves?
yet they still haven't named that species in an accredited and peer reviewed journal.
and until they do it doesn't exist.
>>2115119
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v452/n7184/full/nature06805.html
>>2115125
>and until they do it doesn't exist.
>hasn't been 100% proven yet meaning it can't possibly be true
>except when it comes to the interbreeding and hybridization of chims and humans
>that's totally fact
>>2115127
nicely done!
I'm giving you a 10/10 for finding one and a 0/10 for finding nothing against your position.
at least you can google.
>>2115128
it's not a matter of fact.
species are arbitrary, until they publish it it doesn't exist.
whether or not they should be a different species has nothing to do with whether or not they ARE.
but either way, if they're a different species of coyote that still means they aren't a coywolf.
it's not likely to happen though, simply because we don't give specific names to hybrids unless they're seriously isolated.
>>2115129
>finding one
You literally only posted one as well dumb fuck. Guess what, if you were to post 10 you would have to fucking google them as well,
>finding nothing against your position.
This sentence doesn't even make sense. So I found nothing to go against my position? Why would I be looking for evidence to go against myself?
The article is how Patterson's claims are not justified or authorized based on their process.
>species are arbitrary, until they publish it it doesn't exist.
So you're saying if I found a new kind of spider no one has found before that means it doesn't exist? If someone claims it's "totally a black widow" mean's that it's now a black widow because that's what it's been deemed incorrectly?
>but either way, if they're a different species of coyote that still means they aren't a coywolf.
You're uh... what? If someone names it "coywolf" then that's what it's fucking called. And literally exactly what I'm fucking talking about. It's not the same species as a coyote.
Do you also get this confused with red pandas?
You fail at simple logic.
>>2115130
Did you know a prairie dog is infact, not a dog?
FUCKING CRAZY
>>2115134
>if you were to post 10 you would have to fucking google them as well,
yes, but up till now you showed no ability to google anything.
>Why would I be looking for evidence to go against myself?
because you wanted to learn, not just win arguments online.
but we know you don't want to learn, don't we?
>if I found a new kind of spider no one has found before that means it doesn't exist?
the species doesn't exist until someone names it.
the spider does exist.
that might blow your silly little mind.
>If someone names it "coywolf" then that's what it's fucking called
yes.
nobody has.
>>2115135
in taxonomy there is no such thing as a "prairie dog."
I know, right?
>>2115134
anyways, I've had fun arguing with you, bugguy.
I've got to leave.
say what you like, I'm probably not going to read it.
have a good day.
>>2115136
>yes, but up till now you showed no ability to google anything.
Other than literally all the research about coywolves, coyotes, the fact the singer was attacked by larger animals than coyotes, that they were all identified as coywolves by witnesses, that the coywolves found had evidence(blood) that they were the same coywolves that attacked the singer, and all those other FACTS you love to ignore and avoid.
>because you wanted to learn, not just win arguments online.
You literally said you would like to see research that went against the hybridization of chimps and humans. Specifically, up to date research. >>2115119
>I'd love to read them.
>you know, calling your bluff and stuff.
>I already know the only articles you'll find are from the 1800's and you don't know how to find them anyways.
Jesus fucking christ you're a god damn moron. You're getting fucking roasted on a subject you consider yourself an expert in. You're a god damn joke.
>the species doesn't exist until someone names it.
I'm pretty sure the animals exist and they have a name already. Coywolf I think they are called.
>yes.
>nobody has.
Other than everyone including the authorities that investigated the singer's death.
You have to be trolling. No one can be as retarded as you are.
>>2115139
>arguing
There wasn't any arguing. You have been 100% wrong since the beginning and never posted any reference material or factual evidence.
You're an idiot.
>>2115140
there are rules to naming species.
we both know "coywolf" isn't a species.
>>2115141
>You're an idiot
if you have $1400 you can sit in on my lectures.
if you can get airfare to the US that is.
>>2115143
>if you have $1400 you can sit in on my lectures
literally no one has done this.
>we both know "coywolf" isn't a species.
We both know a coywolf isn't a coyote and is it's own thing. Arguing over technicalities is retarded and isn't your original stance.
>>2115146
>isn't your original stance.
sure it is.
you're just not smart enough to understand the difference between 3% and 50%
I have a theory about that too.
tell me, are you /an/'s janitor?
I'm just curious, you've been dominating the board for years.
>>2115143
>which has wolf dna and is as much a coywolf as the one(s) that killed that girl.
>if you go back and look at the animal(s) that killed the Canadian singer you'll find that they aren't coywolves at all.
>they just have a bit of wolf dna, as do all coyotes.
>as I mentioned, the article calls them coywolves and then cites references saying they weren't.
>1 the claim that they're coywolves was found to be false. (as I posted above and as the article mentions).
>2. coyotes in the area are larger than average, which appears to be due to normal adaptation and lack of hunting.
>normal adaptation
>lack of hunting
You were arguing that they were simply larger coyotes despite the differences in their genome and their completely different physical attributes. You claimed the articles cited that they were regular coyotes despite none of the articles saying that. They all clearly stated that the animal was a hybridization.
You were not arguing that "coywolf" is not an official species as you are now.
You're literally retarded aren't you.
>>2115154
>You were arguing that they were simply larger coyotes despite the differences in their genome and their completely different physical attributes.
no, that's what the article said.
I didn't examine the animals so I can't say.
>You claimed the articles cited that they were regular coyotes despite none of the articles saying that.
I posted the quote saying that,
you can't read.
>They all clearly stated that the animal was a hybridization.
yes, but their citations disagreed.
>You were not arguing that "coywolf" is not an official species as you are now.
I was actually just laughing at you for thinking it was.
I only started arguing once I realized you weren't joking and are actually retarded.
>>2115150
>tell me, are you /an/'s janitor?
what?
>I'm just curious, you've been dominating the board for years.
I just started browsing this board a couple days ago because I needed to know about a spider I saw.
At least you admitted you just got dominated.
>>2115157
well if that's the case, welcome to /an/
we can always use another ignorant, autistic, pedantic moron that disagrees out of spite thinking anyone knows who they are and cares what they think.
you're going to do fine here.
because you're just like the retards that have been here for years.
>>2115157
also, just so you know, I'm the guy that ID'd your spider.
so if I'm an idiot then I must have been wrong.
>>2115156
>I was actually just laughing at you for thinking it was
>literal experts say it should be classified as it's own species
>I agree with them
OUTRAGEOUS
>I only started arguing once I realized you weren't joking and are actually retarded.
You simply never provide any proof or facts or references for anything you have claimed other than the chimp thing (which has evidence and facts to go against it).
Just because you keep repeating that you're so incredibly smart and I'm a dumbdumb doesn't make it true. All you have shown here is you can't follow simple logic, you can't follow the flow of your own argument, and you have trouble with reading comprehension. For fuck's sake you can't even follow the reasoning that a larger predator eat's bigger prey. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Multiple times you have thrown a hissy fit when I provided evidence that proves you wrong. Specifically >>2115136 this post where you try to turn it against me even when you clearly got served. You asked for an article that's not outdated and countered the chimp/human argument. That's exactly what I did.
Your retarded brain just can't process being wrong. Your defense is to try some mental gymnastics that would win the gold in the retard olympics.
That's all this has been. When faced with facts and evidence you try to change your argument and reasoning.
You're a complete moron. It's clear you're not a professor of any sort.
>>2115160
no one ID'd my spider dumbass. i'm the one that asked about what spiders resemble brown recluse and the only two spiders in my region were spiders I already knew about.
>>2115162
I'm not trying to win an argument against you is all.
I realize there's only two people reading our posts and at least one of them is laughing.
but to address your only real point-
>literal experts say it should be classified as it's own species
I agree entirely.
but until they publish that species it doesn't mean shit. And until that day you lose.
>>2115164
that's what I thought.
you're a lying sack of shit.
>>2115167
the fuck are you talking about? again, how am I lying?
>>2115165
>one them is laughing.
The idiot that's too dumb to recognize he's completely wrong even when presented absolute evidence.
>I agree entirely.
>but until they publish that species it doesn't mean shit. And until that day you lose.
Again, moron, stop with the mental gymnastics. What the fuck is wrong with you. This is not what you originally claimed AT ALL and not what I have been arguing against
>>2115040
>if you read the rest of the article you'll find that:
>1. the claim that they're coywolves was found to be false. (as I posted above and as the article mentions).
It wasn't false. They were coywolves according to the article and every otrher article about the attack. Not only that, but the experts all agree that coywolf are animals that populate that section of the americas. Learn 2 research. BTW this is the article I posted as reference http://thechronicleherald.ca/thenovascotian/924160-coyotes-with-some-wolf-on-the-side
>2. coyotes in the area are larger than average, which appears to be due to normal adaptation and lack of hunting.
Again, this is factually incorrect. There is a clear difference not only visually but a different in their gnomes that proves these were not coyotes but something different entirely known as coywolf. They were not simply larger coyote.
>look, read the whole article is all I'm saying.
You didn't. You also didn't research after.
>top trying to win arguments because honestly I don't care if you can read or not and nobody here knows who you are.
You're the one that clearly didn't read it.
Stop saying this was never your argument. This is exactly what I have been arguing with the entire time based off of all of your dumbass posts. Saying now that you totally agree they weren't coyote and that they should be classified as their own species and that I'm wrong on a technicality I never argued.
>>2115143
And again, this is clearly a lie.
>>2115175
>This is not what you originally claimed AT ALL and not what I have been arguing against
you never argued against what I claimed.
because you can't read.
you have no idea what I'm talking about.
Just go ahead and do it people fucking have puma's as pets haha.
>>2115541
>you never argued against what I claimed.
what is -->
>>2115040 (original claims)
and their retorts
>>2115175
You have to be the biggest crybaby in the fucking world. You changed the goal post multiple times and then blatantly/falsely claim otherwise while quoting a post that's doing exactly what you said never happened.
Or you are a sociopath. There is something wrong with you and you need help. Almost every single time you have completely dismissed my replies because in your mind you have recast your stance into something else entirely. My reply no longer makes sense to you. Like, your reality and what's actually being said are completely different things.
You're delusional. I wanted to think you were just being a dense dumbass but you legitimately have a mental illness. There is no other logical explanation for this amount of goal post moving and back peddling.
naughty doggo
>>2115813
>every single time you have completely dismissed my replies because in your mind you have recast your stance into something else entirely.
false.
I ignored you because you didn't address my arguments.
because you don't understand them.
you admit you don't understand them and still pretend I'm the stupid one.
>>2115813
Let's go over it again since you didn't catch it the first time. I have argued:
1. The coyotes that killed the girl aren't coywolves.
2. if they are coywolves based on fractional admixture then ALL coyotes are coywolves because they all have wolf admixture.
3. this wolf admixture is recent, it has nothing to do with the MRCA of coyotes and wolves.
4. It is possible that the coyotes in the attack should be named a new species, but that also means they aren't coywolves.
these are not different positions, nor are they contradictory. Normal people can hold more than one opinion at a time about a thing, and that doesn't mean they've changed opinions or that their opinions don't add up.
Abnormal people don't understand what others are saying and then lash out at them for what essentially comes down to their own failures. You're stupid. And you're insulting. And I'm done trying to help you.
>>2114440
The modern definition of species exist to include niggers as the same as the rest of us real people taxonomicly.
>>2114902
domestic dogs and cats are also shot on site in some places anon, cuz they are pests(cats) and/or dangerous(dogs)
>>2116199
>literally not now dna works but ok
that was the point I was trying to make, but we never got that far.
even if you have a coyote and a wolf mating, the pups won't necessarily be larger or more aggressive than a coyote. Because they can inherit traits from the coyote just as well as from the wolf.
if we're going to pretend that ALL coywolves are larger and more aggressive than coyotes we can also pretend that their dna is some percentage one parent or the other.
neither is true though.
>you're a shit teacher
well I didn't teach you, but in real life I'd probably just fail you. It happens. You aren't smart enough to be learning this stuff yet.
maybe when you're 18.
>this fucking thread
i hate this autistic board
>>2113079
>they're usually solitary hunters
They're pack hunters you fucking city-dwelling faggot. Confirmed for never having dealt with coyotes.
>>2116214
they're both you double nigger
>>2114440
According to the definition of panmictic, dogs and coyotes aren't panmictic because they only rarely interbreed because of their behavior. One is domestic, so it relies on humans to live, and the other is a wild animal.
>>2114897
I'm not sure about coyotes, but cockroaches aren't vectors of any known disease.
>>2116209
this fucking retard.
>even if you have a coyote and a wolf mating, the pups won't necessarily be larger or more aggressive than a coyote. Because they can inherit traits from the coyote just as well as from the wolf.
except the whole part where it's been 300,000 of breeding.
Then the fact a 60 pound creature is going to be larger thus hunts larger prey. Meaning, the prey a 20-30 lbs coyote would run from a larger coywolf would consider it a possible meal. But since you're retarded ass brain is incapable of critical thinking you can't grasp that concept.
> You aren't smart enough to be learning this stuff yet.
You aren't teaching anything. If you are, it's at a shit "college" in a mall and your only students taking your class is because they need your shit half credit as a requirement to graduate from an art school.
>>2115975
>The coyotes that killed the girl aren't coywolves.
Despite literally all the evidence that says show you keep ignoring but ok. All the links posted about that specific death and the links posted from experts on coyotes that clearly states what a coywolf is.
You might be the dumbest person on 4chan. That's incredibly special and you should wear it as a badge.
>>2117040
DNA testing of the coyotes found they weren't wolf hybrids.
It really doesn't matter how you try to deny that fact.
>>2117049
>It really doesn't matter how you try to deny that fact.
Because you're making it up and have never once posted a source on it. You're a fucking idiot that needs to learn how to read.
http://www.outsideonline.com/1918336/canis-soup
>Quann uses the word pack warily, preferring the wonkier "cohesive family social group." That's because pack is associated with wolves, and wolves, as we know, can bring out the worst in people. But, yes, Quann says with a reluctant sigh, "it's pretty well accepted these coyotes are wolf hybrids.
http://www.explore-mag.com/when-coyotes-attack
>While coyotes are quite dissimilar genetically from the grey wolves of western and northern Canada, there’s no such genetic gap between coyotes and the eastern (red) wolf. So when coyotes started pushing into southern Ontario from Michigan less than 100 years ago, female coyotes were able to mate with the eastern wolves.
>As coyotes moved through Ontario and Quebec, they picked up significant amounts of wolf genes, with the result that eastern coyotes are markedly bigger than their western counterparts. Compared to pure western coyotes, the eastern hybrids average five to 16 pounds heavier (up to 46 pounds) and they have larger skulls as well. They also have bigger territories, and show a greater tendency to prey on larger ungulates such as deer. In short, they are more wolf-like, which makes them more capable predators.
>>2112750
Foxes and Coyotes breed here in New England.
>>2117049
Also since you're such a massive faggot and kept saying "nat geo" was your source (despite not linking to anything) here you go.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/11/111107-hybrids-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/
>Hybrid offspring of coyotes and wolves have spread south along the eastern seaboard, a new DNA study confirms.
>Scientists already knew that some coyotes, which have been gradually expanding their range eastward, mated with wolves in the Great Lakes map) region. The pairings created viable hybrid offspring—identified by their DNA and skulls—that have been found in mid-Atlantic states such as New York and Pennsylvania.
>Given this, coyote-wolf hybrids "should be able to do things like take down deer, which a little, scrappy Great Plains wily coyote would not be able to do on its own," Bozarth said.
>>2117101
no they don't, it's impossible for foxes to cross with dogs, wolves, jackals, ect
>>2117106
look at this adorable mother fucker.
Nothing to do with that guys bullshit claim but look at him.
>eastern (red) wolf.
two different animals.
>>2117109
You literally cannot admit you were wrong can you.
You have to be the biggest faggot in the world.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coywolves-are-taking-over-eastern-north-america-180957141/?no-ist
>The hybrid, or Canis latrans var., is about 55 pounds heavier than pure coyotes, with longer legs, a larger jaw, smaller ears and a bushier tail. It is part eastern wolf, part western wolf, western coyote and with some dog
>>2117110
I can do this all day faggot. Your were wrong from the beginning and continue to be. At this point it's just rubbing it in.
http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/8834/20140902/meet-coywolf-natures-next-top-dog.htm
>Just last month, the renowned science journalist Moises Velasquez-Manoff wrote in New York Times Magazine that it is largely thought that the coywolf is roughly one-quarter wolf and two-thirds coyote, with the rest being dog - a "canis soup" of mixed genes that Bradley White, a scientist at Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario, believes is the direct result of desperate and packless grey wolves breeding into coyote populations in the wake of their decline.
"The result has been a creature with enough strength to hunt the abundant woodland deer," Velasquez-Manoff wrote, "as much as 40 percent larger than the Western coyote, with powerful wolflike jaw
>>2117049
>Because you're making it up and have never once posted a source on it
I've already posted the source and the quote from the Wikipedia article where it clearly says they weren't coywolves.
I have been humoring your silliness for days, but in the end it just comes down to that.
you're wrong and you can't read well enough to know it.
>>2117104
oh wait, you finally found my citation?
kek.
what a moron.
nothing in your quote says the coyotes that killed the girl were coywolves.
the citation from Wikipedia stating they aren't specifically said they aren't.
>>2117116
still doesn't say that the coyotes that killed the girl were coywolves.
>>2117123
>citation says their coywolves
>which means you're wrong
>I'm the moron
the citation from Wikipedia stating they aren't specifically said they aren't.
Literally doesn't exist and the fact you still haven't posted any sources kinda says something doesn't it,
>>2117123
>I've already posted the source and the quote from the Wikipedia article where it clearly says they weren't coywolves.
You haven't
>oh wait, you finally found my citation?
What the fuck are you even talking about? it literally says here
>Hybrid offspring of coyotes and wolves have spread south along the eastern seaboard, a new DNA study confirms.
>Hybrid offspring of coyotes and wolves
>expanding their range eastward, mated with wolves in the Great Lakes map) region. The pairings created viable hybrid offspring—identified by their DNA and skulls
>identified by their DNA and skulls
You have to be trolling. There is no other explanation. No one is that fucking retarded.
>>2117123
alright faggot come on post the link saying they weren't coywolf.
Come on. Post it. Don't say "well I already posted it"
Go on and repost it.
>>2117124
does it have to be blatantly spelled out for you?
>>2113071
Some canuck singer lady got attacked by coyotes and she died. But they probably had rabies or some shit.
>>2112750
Foxen are a lot more skittish than wolves. I'd sooner actually probably tame a wild wolf than a foxen.
Of course the difference is a wolf could actually kill me where as a foxen would just injure me. But you know how people are. They assume every animal has some alchemical combination of rabies and chlamydia (yet there's plenty of them) and the moment you get bit you're going to rise as a zombie 24 hours later.
My point is foxen will be more likely to bite you or somebody around you than most other similar creatures. But that's mostly out of anxiety, not aggression. But why antagonize them?
>>2117594
>foxen
>>2117631
no you didnt, and of course you still refuse to because it never existed.
What a faggot.
Nope groom them
Anyone here ever read Coyote Autumn?
>>2118228
>I can't read so you didn't cite
>the burden of reading is on the one making the claim
fuck off, nigger.
>>2112956
How do you think animals became domesticated
>>2113079
Anon canids especially the ones the pure ones not dogs have very hard bones compared to humans meaning punching them or kicking them wont do shit, animals also have a higher degree of pain tolerance so it wont do a thing to it while it rips off your fingers and tears out your arm, and if you get on the floor well you are fucked and good luck hitting coyotes those fuckers can react fast.
>>2113123
>being this much of a fucking soft cock
>>2112956
This, same as its dumb to have a wolf or a lynx. Get a dog or cat, we've spent tens of thousands of years selecting them to live with us.
>>2113055
Actually they're right. You really don't want to start getting wild animals used to humans, it causes all sorts of problems, and in the end everyone loses out. If you want to see animals like that, go wildlife watching where you can enjoy them behaving naturally, instead of causing them to become a nuisance.
>>2113079
>have fun with rabies
>>2113411
Dam. That dog looks like a true bro
>>2118492
Through selective breeding over hundreds or even thousands of years, if you try to raise a large powerful animal like a coyote as a pet you're going to have a fuckload of issues, even if it never injures you it will very likely have serious behavioral issues and be a general piece of shit pet.
>>2118492
certainly not by keeping a single wild animal as a pet with no selective breeding over thousands of years
>>2113411
what a cute face and floppy ears!
i love his bandanna anon
>>2118486
>or at least that's what investigators from NatGeo said.
Is the only source that guy has posted other than the chimp-fucking-humans thing. But that's not a source. That's a vague reference and not a citation.
Earlier I posted a source from natgeo that clearly talks about the difference between a coywolf, coyote, redwolf, and grey wolf.
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/11/111107-hybrids-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/
>Scientists already knew that some coyotes, which have been gradually expanding their range eastward, mated with wolves in the Great Lakes map) region. The pairings created viable hybrid offspring—identified by their DNA and skulls—that have been found in mid-Atlantic states such as New York and Pennsylvania.
>Given this, coyote-wolf hybrids "should be able to do things like take down deer, which a little, scrappy Great Plains wily coyote would not be able to do on its own," Bozarth said
The fact these hybrids are more dangerous than regular coyote, meaning regular coyote are still very harmless to adult humans and the coywolf is what killed that singer.
Absolutely no link in this thread or citation has said regular coyotes killed the singer. The guy that claims to be a "teacher" just will not and can not post a link that backs him up because it doesn't exist. He never posted one in the first place and if he did It's not in this thread.
He keeps claiming a citation within the wikipedia article says they weren't coywolf and "natgeo investigators" claim they weren't coywolf. Neither one of those are true.
This is a slow ass board so I check up on it every other day to see if anything important has been said and nope. Just most faggotry from a "professional" biologist/taxonomists that can't back up his claims and goes against other experts that specialize in coyotes and wolves
Basically, a dumbass troll.
>>2120107
These are all the links posted in this thread. None of them say anything about regular coyotes killing people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVE9qfg7yI
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/18/science/18evolve.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_teeth.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v452/n7184/full/nature06805.html
http://www.outsideonline.com/1918336/canis-soup
http://www.explore-mag.com/when-coyotes-attack
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/11/111107-hybrids-coyotes-wolf-virginia-dna-animals-science/
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coywolves-are-taking-over-eastern-north-america-180957141/?no-ist
http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/8834/20140902/meet-coywolf-natures-next-top-dog.htm
>>2120107
>that's not a source.
the actual source is in the Wikipedia article I quoted.
since anon also quoted portions of that article I assume they know where to find it.
>what is ctrl F
>how do I read a Wikipedia article
frankly anyone too dense to run that down isn't worth arguing with.
>>2120122
>anyone too dense to run that down isn't worth arguing with.
But anyone capable of finding it wouldn't be arguing in the first place. We've got a selection bias at work, and it doesn't favor the competent.
>>2120141
>I'm asking for a specific link that backs up your claims.
you're not asking nicely though.
You think you're winning an argument here, all you've won is continued ignorance.
and that's funny.
>>2120143
>you think you're winning an argument here, all you've won is continued ignorance.
I won a long time ago.
You're too fucking retarded to admit you're wrong and you have no source. Especially considering I have posted half a dozen different sources with many experts talking about eastern coyotes, hybridization, and coywolf.
But all you can do is sperg and say "I already posted it, humph" despite there being absolutely no references or citations in this thread that back you up.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you.
>>2120147
>Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you
I find stupid people amusing and I laugh when people get hurt. Can't help myself, I also like the three stooges.
>I won a long time ago.
if you actually believed that you wouldn't still be posting.
just saying.
>>2120143
Since you're such an "expert" on DNA, genomes, biology, and taxonomy, then you should be able to easily analyze the data in this assessment of coyote-wolf hybridization.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3899836/
or to cut the bullshit
>Most of the 425 eastern coyote samples formed their own cluster that has little overlap with the western coyote cluster. As expected, eastern coyotes were situated between western coyotes and wolves in MDS-spac
as in a very clear distinction from "regular" coyotes and more proof of a coywolf hybrid.
But you won't read it since you have no idea what you're talking about and have never posted a link to a source. You simply keep repeating this statement when it's clearly not true
>yeah, the article refers to them as coywolves throughout, despite the fact that it also cites references saying they weren't.
>if you go back and look at the animal(s) that killed the Canadian singer you'll find that they aren't coywolves at all.
>they just have a bit of wolf dna, as do all coyotes.
>which has wolf dna and is as much a coywolf as the one(s) that killed that girl.
>which was in reply to "it's a regular ol' worthless piece of shit coyote."
Which, according to that assessment above, is not the case. They weren't "regular ol' coyotes" like you keep claiming for some reason.
How do you keep arguing against this? There are so many different sources that prove you wrong but you just can't admit it. Instead you would rather lie about a fake citation again and again.
>>2120155
I'm legit intrigued about your inability to access reality.
And since you still refuse to post a citation you are either trolling or literally retarded.
>>2120156
I said clear back at the beginning-
all coyotes are wolf hybrids to some extent.
the coyotes that killed the girl are no more wolf hybrids than any other coyotes,
and the only dna test done on them called them coyotes, not wolf hybrids.
You're arguing like wolf hybrids are a binary distinction rather than a spectrum, which is funny to me (false dichotomy, you're not smart enough to grasp a spectrum even after I've repeatedly mentioned it).
Plus you think wolf admixture only and always results in greater size and aggression. This is another false dichotomy and a misunderstanding of genetic and individual variances. (What if a giant coyote is born? What if a runt of a coywolf is born?) In reality there are studies you can easily find that show coyotes vary greatly in size and aggression without any significant wolf admixture.
all that is amusing, but honestly your failure to comprehend isn't nearly as funny as your insistence that I'm wrong and mentally handicapped somehow. That's really the icing on the cake for me. Retards assuming everyone that disagrees with them is retarded because they can't stand to consider the alternative.
Not that you're actually retarded, you just have trouble with spectrums and gradients and you don't know much about coyotes. Both of which really don't matter in the long run.
>>2120157
>you still refuse to post a citation you are either trolling or literally retarded.
I'm not trolling you, you are.
I'm not required to post a citation and you should wonder a bit why it matters so much to you that I do....
>>2120161
>the coyotes that killed the girl are no more wolf hybrids than any other coyotes,
>and the only dna test done on them called them coyotes, not wolf hybrids.
This straight up contracts all the DNA and genome studies. They are not the same "wolf hyrbrids" and they form their own groups with little to no overlap.
You're literally retarded.
>greater size and aggression. This is another false dichotomy and a misunderstanding of genetic and individual variance
Backed up by experts in the field if you ever actually read anything.
>>2120162
>I'm not required to post a citation
Oh, now it's because you shouldn't be required to?
Before you said you posted it in this thread. Which you haven't. Your citation never existed and you know it.
Way to try and move the goal post again.
You seriously are a massive fuckin' retard you know that right?
>>2120162
Remember kids, this is the person that is supposedly teaching your classes.
A "professor" that finds no importance in citations. A teacher, when presented more than a dozen sources from actual experts in their fields, still holds his ignorant stance.
This goes to show that those that can't do, teach.
What a dumbass. I really hope your students don't ever take you seriously because you don't deserve to be.
>>2120165
>This straight up contracts all the DNA and genome studies.
there was only one study done on the coyotes that killed her.
all the other stuff you've cited was NOT that study.
which is funny as well.
I say a kid died at Disneyland and you show me hundreds of cases of kids not dying at Disneyland and somehow think that has anything to do with it.
>Backed up by experts in the field if you ever actually read anything
I said always and only, not never.
this is another of those false dichotomy things.
If I say something doesn't always happen that's not the same as saying it never happens.
Also you haven't defined what you mean by hybrid, I assume you're talking first generation crosses by the way you talk, but then you cite studies discussing 100th generations and more.
so until you pin down what you think you mean by hybrid you're not getting anywhere. 1/2 wolf? 1/4 wolf? 1/1000th wolf? What's a hybrid?
then once you've got that figured out we can go back to the twin facts that the less admixture you have the less common and pronounced are the inherited traits, and all coyotes have wolf in their ancestry.
>>2120171
>dozen
Mean half a dozen but still I haven't exactly counted how many I have posted so far.
it's up to 8-9 now. All of them supporting the coywolf hybridization of eastern coyotes and wolves.
but hey, those aren't nearly as reliable as that guys made up source, right?
>>2120169
>now it's because you shouldn't be required to?
no
I'm NOT required to
and that really seems to piss you off so I'm going to do it a lot from now on.
because you're cute when you're pissed.
>>2120172
>all the other stuff you've cited was NOT that study.
Where is it then?
Going to post it or keep making it up.
iddiootttttttt
>>2120177
>Where is it then?
floating around the Wikipedia article about Canadian pop singers that were eaten by coyotes.
Right after the two sentences I quoted that say the coyotes weren't wolf hybrids. In little brackets. Like this: [23]
>>2120179
>floating around the Wikipedia article about Canadian pop singers that were eaten by coyote
then post it. unless you don't know how to copy and paste...
Cus it's not anywhere in the wiki.
>>2120183
>then post it.
say please.
then since you enjoy searching the thread for links, take a minute and search how many times you've called me a retard.
and apologize for each and every one.
then I'll post it and really make you look stupid.
or you can find it yourself, it's not hard to find.
>>2120184
kek.
how many days did it take you to find it?
and you call me retarded.
>>2120185
nah, you're just a fuckin retard.
>or you can find it yourself, it's not hard to find.
Hard to find something that doesn't exist.
>>2120188
you are retarded you dumbfuck.
You can't watch it on the site. You can't watch it anywhere I already looked.
Your "source" is something that can't even be viewed.
Holy shit you truly are retarded.
>>2120190
>You can't watch it anywhere I already looked.
I found it in less than 10 minutes.
it took you over a week just to figure out what the thing was, and you think your ten seconds of looking for the video are good enough?
get back to me in a month when you've watched the thing.
>>2120194
I used didn't wording and... you're wrong. You are 100% fucking wrong.
Even your source says they were coywolf. HAHAHAHA
>https://youtu.be/5g6SsyRajNg?t=2358
"not only are eastern coyotes larger than their western cousins but they are much more likely to take on larger prey"
As in, they would be more aggressive.
"experts believe eastern coyote hybrids will use wolf like hunting techniques"
Holy shit you are literally retarded.
>>2120199
lol
ten minutes ago you said the citation didn't exist and then you found it.
five minutes ago you said the video couldn't be watched and then you found it.
now you're telling me you watched 47 minutes of video in less than 10 minutes and it doesn't say what the Wikipedia article claims.
let me know after you've actually watched it.
>>2120194
>>2120199
"Eastern coyote's wolf DNA might explain why the three coyotes taylor encountered weren't discouraged by her size and most likely coordinated their attack as a team."
how does it feel to be absolutely and utterly wrong about something you tried to defend for days?
That your one source you refused to post literally says that eastern coyote DNA is considerably more wolf like and is clear indication of coyote-wolf hybrids.
>>2120205
>how does it feel to be absolutely and utterly wrong about something you tried to defend for days?
I wouldn't know.
maybe you can tell me after you've watched the video.
probably not though. You still don't get it.
>>2120204
>ten minutes ago you said the citation didn't exist and then you found it
The citation saying they WEREN'T coywolf doesn't exist you dumbfuck. This video clearly states that they were.
> it doesn't say what the Wikipedia article claims.
Yes, it does. Click and watch the video you retard. at 39:05 it explains the mixing of wolves in eastern coyotes and these are the coyotes that attacked the girl.
You don't have to watch all of it. Just skip around and listen to the parts they are talking about. At 39:05 they start talking about the type of coywolf that attacked her.
>>2120207
>it explains the mixing of wolves in eastern coyotes
you're getting there.
let me know when you've watched it.
I'm off to dinner.
I think you've come a long way today. You looked up a citation and then went to another site to view it. You're making progress.
>>2120209
you're a fucking tard.
