Have you guys seen this?
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33713&highlight=debbie
This lady has written a number of books about rats, proclaims to be an expert. Hell even I have followed a lot of her advice. Now it turns out she's been doing illegal surgeries for people, she is NOT a vet nor does she have ANY licensing...and sometimes without anaesthesia?? And when she does use anaesthesia it's isofluorane on a cotton ball apparently.
This is absolutely out of control, I am floored.
She was kicked out the World Pet Expo this weekend because of it...
This is absolutely insane. I thought this woman was a responsible rat fancy woman...apparently not so much!!
You can find her on soacial media, she owns the Rat Fan Club group...18,000 people follow her. It just seems so freakin odd!!
Cute rat for attention.
Edit: Sorry that should say World OF Pets Expo. There's a note on their fb account.
>>2046631
she knows rats aren't conscious so they can't feel pain.
>>2046636
Um. What? If she's doing it without anaesthesia, they are most definitely conscious. Not sure what you mean lol
>>2046641
It doesn't matter if something has metacognition or not, most living breathing organisms have something in their brain that tells them their body is being hurt and/or destroyed, and it causes distress. We're concious enough to fucking know right and wrong, and if giving something discomfort can be avoid, it should. That lady sounds like a fucking dumbass.
Sometimes you gotta do whattcha gotta do.
If I had medical experience I would totally do surgery on my animals if that meant I could save their lives. But only if I couldn't afford to actually go to a vet.
I'd rather leave it to the people who make a living off animals to save my animals.
>>2046649
>I say how I think things work
>you say how you think things work
>we insult each other a few times
>nothing either of us said changes how things work
I disagree with you but I think our differences in opinions mostly come down to different experiences and chemistry. You remind me of my wife, I like to fuck people that have a lot of heart and not much brains.
I'm the opposite, all brain and no heart.
>>2046636
>animal screeching in pain in front of you
>hurr its okay they're not concious
I'm pretty sure this is how serial killers are born.
>>2046681
There's tens of millions of people in the world with clinical apathy.
there's several thousand serial killers.
you still fail math.
>>2046684
It was a joke you spastic fuck.
Please go outside and interact with other humans.
>>2046686
everyone is asleep right now.
I'll have to interact later.
>>2046641
meta nociception
>>2046677
>I'm the opposite, all brain and no heart.
holly shit
>>2046631
What's so wrong about performing surgery on a pet yourself? If you don't have the money for it, and your only options are to put it down or attempt surgery, why wouldn't you? As long as your not some retarded fuck digging through your rat with a swiss army knife, and have studied to the procedure, I'd say you owe it to your animal.
>>2046677
>>2046822
>>2046827
I prefer spiritual machines
>>2046831
he's right you know.
insulting bugguy doesn't make rats any more sentient or you any more educated.
>>2046844
>just to insult bugguy's pop-sci knowledge and liberal arts degree
you promote him rather than insult him.
I doubt he has any more of a degree than you do.
>>2046840
>Kinda stupid to think it's relevant for animals.
>sponges aren't animals.
this is exciting news, you've reclassified sponges? Alert the press!
>>2046867
>I have a master in molecular biology,
makes me laugh every time you say it.
the one thing you can't fake on the internet is knowledge.
>>2046870
then there's a fuckload of molecular bio masters here and all of them seem to somehow be too stupid to understand that the experience of the quale requires consciousness, it is consciousness.
an odd oversight in your education.
are you from Australia like all the other fake biologist on /an/?
Now that would be quite the coincidence.
metacognition is a key component of consciousness
rats also demonstrate alturism and regret
>>2046864
Not bugguy but a fellow horticulturalist. There's a huge difference in both knowledge and ability. A good gardener can pull in more then you, I bet. Especially if they have skills like grafting
>>2046878
That's a joke, right? There's a reason master grafters make 200k+ traveling the country topworking Orchards and vineyards
>>2046872
>it's a meme-field.
>claims to be a biologist
>thinks consciousness is a field of science
see, it's stupid shit like that....
>>2046882
Exactly. When each tree/vine can be worth tens of thousands of dollars, it's treated more like open heart surgery then merely putting two parts of a plant together. The master grafters rarely fail, and are rewarded for the skill and attention to detail. Topworking a 100 acre orchard is extremely tedious, and it can take months to see whether or not it was successful. If you pay a cheap grafter, he could get 3/4 of the way through your orchard when you find out his scalpel has transmitted disease amongst your whole orchard
>>2046888
in the US this work is regularly done by uneducated migrants for pennies an hour.
>>2046891
Sure, in some fields like rose bud grafting. Not orchard work
>>2046889
>it's ausfag pretending she is a molecular biologist
I know. I'm just playing with her.
Let her pretend we don't know who the mysterious new molecular biologist in town is.
>>2046893
>Not orchard work
you underestimated the Mexicans once,
don't make that same mistake again!
but seriously, Mexicans run American fruit and vegetable production from top to bottom.
>>2046904
>due to mass production, not quality production.
I'd say they've mastered both.
they produce 3 times more food than we need and then only bring the best 2/3's to market. Economy of scale, our food is both cheaper and better than most. We just waste a lot but it doesn't matter because it's cheap.
>>2046889
I'm not pretending anything you fucking faggot
>>2046904
Actual the amount of double knockouts that survive now is actually somewhat decent, but thats only because the grafting is simple chip bud grafting, which, if your using the handheld chipping devices, is nearly always successful. But that can't be done in orchards or vineyards, where there are not many migrant workers. The migrant workers that work in orchards and vineyards mostly do things like pruning and fruit collection. Things that no one can fuck up. Migrants absolutely do NOT graft in orchards, unless they actually are formally trained (which some are). Otherwise, any Orchard/vineyard owner who trusts migrants to graft his shit is in for a terrible surprise when he runs out of business because 3/4s of the grafts didn't take, and it'll take 10 years to replace the trees that were destroyed. The orchard owners that last are the ones that use master grafters.
>>2046910
They've mastered mass production sure, because losses are acceptable. They certainly aren't prominent in orchards and vineyards because (especially vineyards) it's all about the quality and the health of the plant. I know of vineyard owners who don't even trust them to pick fruit.
>>2046932
>I can imagine it's a whole lot better in a warmer climate
I'm sure that's part of it. I think it's really just because chip bud grafting has become so easy.
I'd love to see some migrants try to do an inarching repair graft successfully.
>>2046943
Lmao, if only sweaty hands sterilized wounds... my life would be so much easier.... I hate constantly having to use bleach. Makes me paranoid about my fish tanks and possible cross contamination.
>>2046631
Here I was, surprised to see a new rat thread with so many responses. Nope, it's just bugguy and his followers.
A single forum post isn't a good source. Most vets don't know how to treat rodents tbqh. If she wants to do the same rote surgery with the owners permission good for her. At a convention is a bit inappropriate though.
http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifax/2016/01/26/nova-scotia-couple-given-lifetime-ban-on-owning-animals.html
>>2046966
Erm. Disregard that link, fucking Lazarus plugin fucking up my shit.
Okay what I meant to say is this;
I guess I could see the value in surgery on your own animals if you knew what you were doing. But I question whether she does know what she's doing. The only education she has is a high school education from quite some time ago, and much of what she learned would now be outdated.
This also isn't just something that's happening in a single forum post. Check Fb for the World of Pets Expo; there's a note there that they dropped her. Also check the Riften Ratway Rat discussion group and the RatFanClub itself.
All of this started the other day when a woman asked for advice about her rat, who had a broken leg...Debbie told her that the rat would be fine left as-is, and that they don't feel pain anyway, and then told her she didn't need to go to the vet. The rat ended up dying in the middle of the night. Could have been from the wound, could have been from something else, hard to say. But vet wouldn't have hurt, that's for sure.
I just feel like the lack of anaesthesia some of the time (supposedly one time she removed a very large tumor on the chest wall with no anesthesia) and the fact that she is obtaining her isofluorane gas illegally make me seriously question what else she's doing.
And I mean, who the fuck does demonstrative surgeries in a HOTEL ROOM at a pet expo? There is no way that is a sterile environment.
I guess I just think that there are an awful lot of red flags here.
>>2046875
This. I friend of mine when to school for horticultural and is a groundskeeper at the Edsel Ford Mansion in Michigan.
>>2046677
Damn, you don't amount to much if brains are all you got going for you
> thread about rat lady
> quickly devolves into consciousness in rats
> then turns to gardening
> bugguy strikes again
>>2046631
>isofluorane on a cotton ball
What's wrong with that? It's how we got our kicks back in medschool.
