I'm getting a puppy soon and I've been thinking about keeping her mostly on raw meat. I have a couple questions.
How do I know how much to give her?
Can I trust her not to choke on a bone as a baby? I initially thought about feeding her ground beef/turkey while she is young, but that wouldn't be any fun. Especially if she is teething, she would want a bone or something chewy. I'd imagine getting raw chicken wings, but I fear the bone might be a bit too small that it might hurt her. I could be wrong about the size though.
I don't know, maybe I'm underestimating her intelligence, but I just want to be cautious.
You have a lot of research ahead of you. You're going to need to carefully calculate the appropriate amount and composition of the food she needs. Because, for example, muscle meat is low in the way of vitamins so you'll need to add a supplement or organ meat too. And raw, meaty bones. You want larger bones for this, chicken wings aren't good for that. To be sure you're doing that all right you're going to need to contact an animal nutritionist or at the very least experts on raw feeding.
The only way to bypass a complicated process of acquiring the proper ratios and what not is to buy a prepackaged raw meat dog food blend. They're expensive but foolproof.
But really it's actually perfectly fine, even better maybe because it's so easy to fuck up raw diets, to just but good quality meat only/mostly meat canned food or even kibble. And just give her some raw meaty bones sometimes for the fun of it.
Bird bones are a no-no. They will splinter and injure the dog's intestine. If you want to give her bones, give big ones.
Feed your dog offal, especially green tripe if you can get it. I don't think proper ratios are that important as long as you feed the dog a variety of meats and offal.
There should be tables online giving info how much protein/carbs/fats a dog of specific age/weight/breed needs. Look them up.
If you're on Facebook there are actually a number of Facebook groups with lots of good information compiled for beginners. I would recommend joining a few of these groups, just so you have people you can reach out to for questions. Unfortunately there are only a few people on /an/ with experience formulating and feeding a raw diet.
BTW, where do you live?
What breed?
this stupid shit has got to stop
dogs need more than raw fucking meat in their goddamn diet
there is nothing wrong with high quality brand kibble food
goddamn i want to murder people
>>2003356
I agree kibble is fine but why would you think they need more than raw meat? That's the diet of their ancestor. The most veg a wolf might get is stomach contents or the odd scrap. As far as nutrients go it can all be found in meat, Inuits live off of meat only 10 months a year and are actually very healthy. They get the nutrients from the organ meats and fats we muscle meat only faggots don't. So a dog doesn't require plant matter to take up a notable part in their diet. Any feeling you have that they need more is projecting.
>>2003363
modern dogs aren't wolves. inuits aren't dogs either.
>>2003356
Even the best kibble is too high in soluble carbohydrates, most of the micro nutrients are extruded out, and the added artificial nutrients are inferior quality.
You can't argue that a balanced whole food diet is less healthy than a processed diet, and dogs have a carnivorous digestive tract designed to pull nutrition most efficiently out of a raw meat-based diet.
>>2003369
>modern dogs aren't wolves
Their outward appearance has changed, but internally they have pretty much the same physiology and digestive tract. And technically modern dogs are a subspecies of wolf.
Op this is something you should discuss with your breeder.
Right OP, this may be a TLDR, but please bear with me.
I'm a third year vet student who (before vet school) fed my dogs raw. Having now spent three years at vet school, I have mixed feelings on raw, and as you're in the initial stages of finding your feet raw wise I'm going to give you a few links.
Here’s a major one with loads of extra research to back it up- written by a buddy at another vet schools lecturers: http://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/evidence-based-nutrition-raw-diets/
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline%20health_Glasgow.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26512541
There's two major problems with raw:
1. Nutrition - even more so for a growing puppy. Quite honestly it is a nightmare to get your calcium/phosphorous ratio correct for proper bone development. If you are going to seriously do this, you want to buy a raw product that is listed by FEDIAF as being COMPLETE for puppy stages. You see, normally I’d now say that’s where you can feel like you’re doing this correctly, but there was a piece of research done recently where cats were fed the right nutrient ratio for taurine, but still had taurine problems despite looking in FAR better health than their kibble counterparts.
2. Obstructions. I’m in the same camp that raw bones shouldn’t In theory cause obstructions, and I strongly believe there’s not enough evidence done on evalulating raw bones splinting. However, the evidence still stands (and I have since seen it in practice) that raw bones still do cause obstruction. Duck necks being a particularly bad case.
3. Bacteria. I’m not talking about the dog- I’m talking about you as a household. Perhaps you might not have any immune problems, but the three year old down the street that pets your dog that WILL shed bacteria might have.
I’m desperate to be pro-raw, I really am, but there’s just simply not enough evidence right now. OP, feed your dog on a complete diet whilst its growing up, perhaps supplement it with raw if you feel the evidence against obstruction is compelling enough and then have another think about feeding 100% raw. I don’t think it’s worth the gamble to play around with nutrients during a critical growth period.
The basic problem is a distinct lack of research, something with companies like Nature’s menu (defra registered, also monitored by ALPHA) are trying desperately to correct. I’m personally looking at the possibility of doing some research myself into the matter, as I’m a strong believer that I have seen raw work wonders for some dogs prior to vet school- but having now sat through training, until there is compelling evidence to show that it is balanced, that the risk to public health isn’t as huge as we think it is, and then there’s the bone issue I can’t in my right mind recommend it.
If you do insist on feeding raw, please don’t look up any recipe online, find your local trained animal nutritionist.
Finally, have you made sure you have a reputable breeder?
For heelers you want to find a breeder that health tests both dam and sire. So, you want: Hips scores, elbow scores, PRA, PLL, BAER testing and ivermectin.
If the breeder can't show you the certificates for all of those in dam, sire and as far back as possible run in the opposite direction. You also want someone actively showing + working their breed.
Don't put money in back yard breeders hands please.
There's nothing feeding raw op however it's more important how you feed raw. For instance you should never feed ground meat unless you grind it yourself and every cut should be rinsed and fed asap.
Also it doesn't hurt to put a supplement for calcium among other things.
I've heard boned brisket is good because its got plenty of meat and the bone is pretty soft.
>>2003263
I've been feeding my dog raw meat since I got her, (around 10 weeks) and she's been doing really well. A couple things to point out .
Firstly - They grow much slower on raw meat, which is ideal for larger dogs.
To determine how much you give your dog, you'll need to know how much they weigh, I can't remember the exact rule of thumb, but I believe it's 10 % of their current weight when they're puppies or 1% of their Predicted adult weight in pounds.
My dog is around 60ish pounds (haven't weighed her in a while) but she eats just under 2 pounds of it a day. Maybe less.
Raw diets lack certain vitamins that they can only recieve from roots or green vegetables. I usually try to add Kale for the vitamins and Sweet potato for the fibre. Other than that, all their essentially nutrients will be coming from muscle meat, organ meat and bone.
Muscle meat should be around 80% of what they're eating.
Organ meat is only 10% or less. Very minimal. And this is where a lot of vitamins come from. I usually give about a tablespoon a day.
Bone is already included from my butcher, he specifically sells raw meat for dogs, so he takes the muscle meat + Bone and grinds it up in ground chicken slabs. (other turkey and others as well).
From what I've heard is certain dogs can be allergic to raw chicken so it can be better to start with turkey, but always check the consistency of their poop.
Actually, when you do start feeding raw, you'll need to become a master of understanding why their poop is a certain colour or texture, this will tell you what nutrients they are lacking or if they have TOO much of a certain meat.
Green Tripe is also SUPER healthy for dogs but should be given in small portions. It's considered a muscle meat thats very nutritious but it can cause intense diahhrea if you give too much. It's very high in calorie as well I think. I try to give mine tripe once a week or once every two weeks.
1/2
>>2003561
2/2
When giving your dog any sort of vegetable, make sure it's blended very fine. Dogs stomachs aren't good at digesting greens and this why lettuce should be avoided since it's even more difficult to digest than Kale.
Sweet potato should be warmed until it's soft. Most dogs adore sweet potato so it shouldn't be a problem during feeding.
Make sure you check to see what dogs can or cannot eat - there are many fruits that are toxic to dogs, usually leading to kidney damage (Avocados, grapes, raisins, etc.)
Bird bones are fine for your dog since they're soft when UNCOOKED. Never give your dog cooked bone. Cooked bone can fracture and cut up their insides. If you do wish to give your dog cooked meat.. Avoid seasoning and bones altogether.
Another important thing to note is that when your dog starts raw he will probably have a bit of Diarrhea for a week, that's normal.
AVOID Grains and never mix kibble with raw meat. Grains and kibbles digest slower in the stomach which can cause illness from the raw meat which is generally supposed to pass quickly. (hencfe why dogs don't NORMALLY get Samonella.
Good luck, that's all I can remember for now. At work, wil be back later...
>>2003564
I'd like to add one more thing.
If your dogs is used to kibble you may have to TEACH your dog how to chew. This can be by feeding him a piece slightly larger than what they can swallow whole and be sure to hold onto that piece so the pup is forced to chew it off the part you're holding.
What I also ended up doing was giving my pup a slab of ground chicken (with bone) that was a little more frozen so she had to chew on it to really break it down.
>>2003564
Raw bird bones are not soft, where does everyone keep getting this stupid idea from? They are BONES, not rubber. They splinter and crack wether cooked or not.
>>2003569
They're on the softer relatively speaking, they're light and tiny bones so they aren't too dangerous. Especially if it's raw.
I"ve had my dog eat chicken wings, I had to hand feed her at first to be sure as to how she was eating them, I guess it also depends on how carefully your dog chews.
>>2003574
Well I mean I would understand them being 'softer' if you were grinding them up into other meat, but I've had to take family dogs in to the vet for getting into packages of chicken and eating the bones and it cut their insides up. I just don't see why it's worth risking when theirs alternatives like supplements or grinding the bones up.
It's okay to feed your dog raw chicken bones, just not cooked. Raw chicken bones are a bit flexible and they break down easily in the digestive system.
But if your dog is a "wolfer" or a "food bolter" (and if your dog is, they inhale rather than chew) I would seriously recommend you give now bones, only marrow because bolters and bones can be a recipe for disaster be it punctures, peritonitis, or even obstruction).
I had a bolter I was feeding BARF and he was hospitalized not once but TWICE for having swallowed too large a bone hunk and got really ill and dehydrated because he couldn't even drink and almost died in the animal hospital but luckily he managed to digest both without surgery with supportive care.
But in general RAW chicken bones are a good choice for most any dog.
>>2003583
When you say grinding, do you mean into a powder or tinier pieces? Because would smaller shards of bone hurt when swallowed?
>>2003591
I don't know about smaller shards (would think they could cut), but I was thinking grinding in how they grind up a bunch of stuff to make hotdogs/sausage, so probably closer to a powder.
>>2003263
Meat tends to give them a much shinier coat. I may experiment with it as well once I can afford it.
>>2003263
No bones, they will choke. Never feed a dog any sort of bone, especially puppies. they have a tendency to just try and swallow things whole. Trust me, I know from experience.
>>2003731
>never feed retarded dogs bones
At what age should their mouth be able to a normal raw bone that isn't grinded?
>>2003561
See, this is where I worry. WHAT vitamins do you THINK a raw diet lacks? How the hell do you know what percentage of vitamins you are giving your dog with a tablespoon a day?
What organ meat are you feeding- are you aware of the ridiciously high amount of vitamin A in liver? As I suspect that'll make up a bulk of your organ meat.
Poop- colour or texture, tell me dear fellow as you seem to have done research into this- what colour/texture do you associate with what vitamin?
You "think" tripe is high calorie? And lettuce avoided - do you understand that the majority of lettuce is water?
See, I'm all for raw, but you guys need to start being so wishy washy. You're chucking a load of food on a plate and praying it has enough nutrients to keep your dog alive, hell, you're even suggesting it to other people.
And, I'm sorry, but raw chicken bones can (and still do) splinter - causing terrible obstructions which can cause death.
>>2003748
So this is not correct?
>>2004047
Those chicken bones shatter easily, creating sharp bits that can do some damage in a worst case scenario.
>>2004046
Secondary to this- can you quote me your ca/phosphate ratio? How and what vitamins do you think your dog should be getting a day?
If you can't asnwer those questions, I strongly, strongly recommend you find an animal nutritionist and have a serious talk about what you are feeding with them. Or, you find a commercial raw that is backed up by someone like the FEDIAF as actually being complete.
Please. please do not think I am antiraw- far from it, I would love to back raw. However, there's no where near enough evidence right now, and you guys telling other people to just "And this is where a lot of vitamins come from. I usually give about a tablespoon a day. " is downright irresponsible.
Do you have any idea on the nutrient profile your dog needs? Heck, the profile that any dog needs?
>>2004052
Totally with you. I really don't trust raw myself unless, as you said nicely, its been prepackaged and backed by professionals. It just feels like a very expensive fad right now when there are plenty of good kibbles perfectly balanced.
I agree with everything the vet student has said in this thread. I love the idea of feeding raw, but as of now with how little research and true knowledge there is on it, it's just too much of a gamble. there's no reason for me to put him on a marginally better diet than what he's on now (orijin) with so many unknown factors and known risks. it's not worth the risk
I don't want to feed raw completely simply because I can't afford it, but is there anything wrong with feeding them kibble and raw? Not at the sametime, but 1st meal being raw and the second being kibble. Or 1 day raw, the next kibble
>>2004345
What's wrong with just feeding canned food?
>>2004345
could give them intestinal upset. just feed a very high quality kibble consistently
>>2004349
nothing that I know of, it's just harder to find a high quality canned food for dogs that isn't intended to just be used as a topper
>>2004345
Why do you want to feed raw? Evidence wise, there's no scientific evidence to back it up as being any better. Honestly, I agree with another poster, feed a high quality kibble and forget raw right now unless it's commercially prepared and backed.
If you want to feed them both side by side, I believe you can as long as you do it on opposite ends of the day, but consult the packets to triple check dependent on the brand.
>>2004337
I'm glad someone sees my point of view, it downright scares me that people experiment with their dogs nutrition to these extents.
I heard somewhere that if you feed raw meat to a dog he becomes aggressive and will eat your baby
Avoid chicken meat. Many dogs and cats are allergic. Pic related, Khajiit, my almost two year old European Shorthair. He is about for kilogram of pure muscle. Terror off the neighborhood, bringer of the softest belly.
>>2004413
Is this true?
Do some long lost instils come back when they taste flesh and they get all feral?
>>2004422
Do you turn into a cave man the moment you eat steak tartare?
>>2004439
>actually believing in stereotypical "cavemen"
>implying that paleolithic man didn't cook their meals
>implying that cooked meals didn't even precede modern humans as a species
Dogs have been eating kibble and canned food for decades, faggot. He'll live.
>>2004348
It's fine to do both if you have to, just make sure you're putting in the time to make sure the raw is still balanced properly. Still healthier than just kibble alone.
