"Nice Guy"-dom is a terrible social pathology. You and I both agree on this.
But do you think it's worth asking WHY so many young men came into such a pathology?
Do you suppose, in different circumstances, these men might have turned out differently? Or do you think they were born that way?
I suspect they don't have sisters.
>>16454045
>But do you think it's worth asking WHY so many young men came into such a pathology?
Not particularly.
>Do you suppose, in different circumstances, these men might have turned out differently?
No, because they are not victims of circumstance: their wounds are entirely self-inflicted. This is not to say that they deliberateky chise to not be desirable, only that it is completely due to the consequences of their own deliberate actions. They do not deserve pity or study; they deserve only to be pressured yet harder until they grow the fuck up.
>>16454059
Isn't anything worth study? Or are some things so obvious you can be 100% about them all the time?
>>16454045
I think many of them had absentee or shit fathers. So they were spoiled as boys, which gave them a sense of entitlement. If a kid grows up thinking he's entitled to objects, and society teaches him that women are objects, then he'll think he's entitled to women. Worse off, entitled because he acted like a basically decent human being.
A lot of them whine about how "baw women have tons of men to choose from and they choose guys who are attractive and sporty, how unfair", thinking that they deserve a woman for existing and not for being an exceptional mate, like most men try to do when they have fathers who encourage them to do their best.
>>16454069
You could get a PhD in it, and I'm sure people are studying the problem right now.
>>16454075
Children today don't play outside with a variety of children from different ages and genders. Couple that with having no sister, and you've got a guy who has no idea what girls want.
I think it's a result of this generation's expectation of instant gratification.
Most people have grown up with everything handed to them and have led relatively cushy lives. Money can't buy true affection, and that is one thing that that they have to put actual effort into. Everything has been handed to them and they've got with minimal effort, and they've come to expect that they won't be denied anything. But when it comes to relationships, they have to put effort into it, and it's the one area where money won't buy them what they want and one area where they might not necessarily get what they want. I've never seen a guy from a poor background whine about being put in the friendzone, it's always middle and upper class guys who have never experienced proper hardship.
>>16454085
This to an extent
>>16454085
>Children today don't play outside with a variety of children from different ages and genders.
I'd argue the opposite: kids today are interacting with a greater variety of people than ever.
>>16454045
The way I see it, people are products of their genetics, their environment, and their choices.
>Or do you think they were born that way?
I don't think "nice guys" can be attributed to genetics. Personality generally isn't attributable to genetics (anyone who knows twins will know this). If you are referring to the stereotype where a guy tries to "be so nice that girls give him sex," then that is a behavioral CHOICE. Not genetics.
Here's how I think environment plays into it:
In the age of overbearing helicopter parents, most kids are taught they must be obedient above all else. "Nice guys" are obedient: they think they are adhering to a set of rules. They believe that if they are nice enough and fulfill the requirements of a particular girl (give her stuff, "be there" for her, etc), they will get sex.
But at their core, "nice guys" want sex. They're being soft manipulators. I think even in a different situation "nice guys" would still attempt manipulation of some sort. That is the choice they made.
That being said, "nice guys" is a stereotype and, like most stereotypes, is flawed when applied to the population at large. So, take this rambling as you will.
>>16454045
A combination of increased socioeconomic opportunities for women and them getting different messages for the first time in...ever, while young men are largely being told the same stiff they always have, sometimes from their mothers to boot. It has always been askew, the slope is simply turning on its axis. No idea when things will improve for all.
Wonder if it's because they were raised mostly by women so their model of interaction with them revolves around kissing up to them/trying to gain their approval rather than just getting along with them.
>But do you think it's worth asking WHY so many young men came into such a pathology?
When I was a kid, a few concepts were thrown at me. Chief among them was that at the end of the day the girl falls for her best friend. I'm pretty sure that's a major part of why so many people try to win her over as a friend first, rather than asking her out from the get go.
On top of that manyof them were probably raised to always avoid aggression. Hell, schools punish kids for defending themselves nowadays. So they start thinking you're supposed to smile and be nice to some twerp when you just want them to fuck off, so they forget the difference between being a guy who's nice, and a "nice guy".
>>16454059
>They do not deserve pity or study; they deserve only to be pressured yet harder until they grow the fuck up.
Pressure in the right direction is a good thing, but many of them don't know which direction to go to begin with.
>>16454094
Bah, interacting online maybe.
>>16454110
Lots of guys were raised "mostly by women" since the woman is generally the primary caregiver in most families and I doubt most fedora-tier guys are from single-parent families. Most seem to be normal, middle class guys who can't handle rejection and find a scapegoat in the form of women to deal with it
>>16454107
Any ideas for what "improvement for all" might look like?
>>16454110
>>16454085
Given the lack of genuine interaction with women of their own peer group, where do you suppose they got their wrongheaded ideas about what most women want? Or do you think those ideas just spawned in a dark nook like athlete's foot?
>>16454135
No, even in real life. Society in general is getting more and more diverse, at least in the Western world. The world is becoming more globalised, which includes migration, which results in communities with a broad variety of people. When I was a kid, we had a Korean girl move to our school and she was somewhat of a novelty. Now, kids wouldn't bat an eye if that same thing happened.
>>16454138
Wrong ideas? Or no idea?
>>16454146
Same difference.
>>16454143
There are children you never see, who never leave the house.
>>16454138
>where do you suppose they got their wrongheaded ideas about what most women want?
The internet, obviously. The internet, while allowing interaction with different people, also allows like-minded people to come together. it also allows people to voice their strong opinions, somewhat anonymously. All it takes is for one person to write a blog post or whatever complaining about women, and other guys will see it and agree. In time, they'll form a community of guys who think alike and support each other. These groups will often come together with their own slightly different ideas and form a bigger ideology, creating movements like Red Pill, incels and MGTOW
>>16454149
That's like the difference between having no bank account vs. having no money in your bank account.
>>16454151
They still interact with others at school. When you're a kid, you generally have no trouble getting along with other kids.
>>16454152
Yeah and fiction. Romantic fiction has been driving young men to suicide since the days of Lord Byron.
>>16454159
They sit quietly and die inside. They are not interacting.
>>16454136
I meant in institutions.
>>16454138
>Given the lack of genuine interaction with women of their own peer group, where do you suppose they got their wrongheaded ideas about what most women want?
TV or something. The problem is not that they don't know what women want, the problem is they think there's some implicit promise of reward if they give it.
>>16454171
That has nothing to do with the point I made earlier. My point was that people, including kids, are interacting with a more diverse group today in the past. Generally speaking, it's true. There will always be that small minority who sits inside and keeps to themselves, no matter whether we're talking now or in the past.
>>16454138
>where do you suppose they got their wrongheaded ideas about what most women want?
Parents and media I think. I'm under the impression the advice my parents gave was based off of how they wanted things to work, rather than the reality of the situation anyways.
>>16454187
All I can assume is that you have no idea how much kids used to play outside up until the 1970s.
>>16454193
What does that have to do with anything? Back then, society was more homogenous, or at least fragmented, than it is now. Kids are still interacting with a greater variety than they did in the past, since society has become more and more integrated
>>16454195
Bah, you didn't experience it, sorry.
I grew up with my mom, no dad, only child, and a computer and bullies. What grew out of this was a massive addiction to approval and praise. It got so strong that I just did for others, I wouldn't do anything for myself unless others gave me the go ahead and if a girl showed me any niceties I needed more. I was never my own person. Just someone who would do anything for others. My emotions were highly variable.
Now I've reclaimed my mind from this mindset. I'm basically in tatters because I now realize I can get any emotion I want myself, but my whole life was built on others approval. So now I'm insanely lost because I have no idea what to do, and the things I did aren't really passions and the program I'm in I'm in because its expected of me, I don't like 95% of my friends I only know cause I tried to chameleon for everyone before. In short I'm self sufficient and content, but bored and passionless.
Life's not exactly better. But that addiction to the opinion of others fills their life and can influence everything. Why they're so many? Probably because its a need people don't know how to satisfy healthily.
>>16454045
I assume this "nice-guy Dom" arises when entitled boys fail to see or understand how they could be the ones "in the wrong" when compared to chads and douches.
I have had several male friends who have turned into robots because I never reciprocated their feelings. I was always very clear and polite, but they couldn't understand that I just didn't find them attractive. Physically, they were unappealing to me, I guess they just didn't understand that. They felt that I was under an obligation to meet their needs because they chose to be nice to me. They felt entitled, and were resentful when they felt they weren't getting what they deserved.
The reason it has become a "group" is because of the Internet. You could say the same for other-kin. They bounce their psychosis off of eachother until they've deluded themselves into thinking that, since they have a community, they must be in the right, and everyone else is in the wrong.
So- my answer is delusion and entitlement. ironically the same as most SJWs. I wonder if there's a parallel there.
>>16454187
You have a very warped view of childhood. As a kid, nobody liked me. My parents moved a lot and everyone picked on me because new kids are easy targets. So I mostly kept to myself and didn't have any real interaction with my peers until after college, when I found things like larp
>>16454134
this desu, the idea that you shouldnt make your feelings obvious from the start and become friends first is very detrimental, but I guess if you persist well into your adult life still thinking this you were just stubborn and havent learned from life. God knows I was kinda like this even though I didnt think women had an obligation of liking me back, but I learned from my mistakes and now I'm fairly well ajusted socially, college worked wonders, apart from the posting on 4chan part kek but I cant just leave after so many years
Bad parenting. I was taught nothing about how to behave properly and sure enough I became a Nice Guy. Parents died and I had to find my own path and role models. Suddenly I realized that I was doing everything wrong and the rain clouds parted to let the sun shine down.
For everyone else I'd suggest doing it without the dead parents.
>>16454045
>But do you think it's worth asking WHY so many young men came into such a pathology?
Female teachers in elementary and middle school.
>>16454338
this is very well put
i m o :
it just stems from low confidence / insecurity (and probably lots of other smaller factors but those are the main ones)
>young guy meets girl
>likes her romantically but risks rejection if makes feelings known
>wants to be close to her but won't ever take plunge (or will just take a really long time)
>girl will never express interest (obviously generalizing but this is the 'man's job' the majority of the time)
>settles for being her friend even though its painful because it's the path of least resistance for feelings
>gets to spend time with her, have degree of closeness and intimacy but never in the way he wants
and then there's the other type of 'nice guy' who isn't actually nice in the slightest and just thinks he deserves attention because he's 'different' or whatever
>>16454152
>The internet
Pretty much the sole reason of why there seems to be so many.
I guess before the advent of the internet, losers of various types, not just 'Nice Guys TM', were either forced to integrate, became recluses or went nuts on a killing spree.
"Nice guys" have been fed complete bullshit as to what women want when they were growing up.
Most of them realize they've been lied to and either drop out of the dating game or start lifting and pumping and dumping women.
Thanks feminism.
>>16454045
>"Nice-Guy" Dom
I'm sorry, what?
What are you actually talking about in this thread? Being unattractive? Lacking empathy? Suffering? Weakness?
Are any of these things exclusive problems of the modern age?
Maybe the problem is entitled idiots blaming their problems on the world? Something that isn't a new phenomenon...
>>16455679
As a grill all the nice guys I'v experienced are a combination of these things. They're generally undesirable guys who want to blame the world for them being undesirable rather than working on self-improvement. Yet this very attitude/tendency is the exact thing that makes them so unattractive.
>>16454045
Gynocentric media raising boys instead of men. Most exposure boys get with manhood is some sport of sorts. Outside of that they get taught to be pushovers.
>>16454110
Agreed. Single moms can't raise boys into men. They can only produce and at best provide.
>>16455608
Manginas, pussies, white knights, supreme gentlemen, the keked, male feminist, effeminate metrosexuals, and etc. Undesirable faggots in general.
>>16455719
They've been conditioned into believing that women want sensitive doormats since they were little boys.
And women do want these men, but only as emotional tampons and beta providers while they put out for a strong alpha Chad who doesn't give a fuck about their emotions. This confuses beta males and leaves them whining on the internet while Chad is being what a real man is supposed to be and getting all the pussy.
>>16455696
Exactly, I grew up with my mother and two sisters and I have no problems getting grills, because i'm not unattractive, it's that simple haha.
Rationalizations everywhere.
>>16455728
Why the fuck would it be this binary?
>>16455743
Because it's true.
Male - Female attraction is nowhere near as complicates as you think it is and can be easily brought down to "alpha fux, beta bux".
Nice guy-dom is the natural outbirth of our cultural expecations of romance not catching up with the habits resultant from sexual liberatation.
Men grow up believing that, by and large, noble and unselfish behaviour will make them attractive to women. This was largely true of our parents generation, and it gives out a broadly positive view of women, so it's become a meme.
Unfortunately now that women are free to have sex with many different men, it makes far more sense for them to wait in line to be Chad's next conquest, than reward 'nice' qualities.
Because this presents a relatively unfavourable view of women, feminists and so on, have attempted to shut down the cognative dissonance this fact arouses, this obvious unfairness by shaming the people who've lost out. I am not saying that some of the feminist memes about nice guys are always fabricated, but it is completely ridiculous for them to assume the completely natural behaviour of being annoyed at unfairness, nor the completely normal behaviour of falling for people you are friends with, is maniuplative or entitled.
Now to be clear here, I am in no way saying that women have an obligation to date low status but 'nice' men, or submit to any obviously maniuplative tendancies, but they should be able to admit that it must A) be frustrating for a man for them not to be able to obtain a partner, when men who are 'less nice' than them are, B) no woman will admit that they're tastes are superficial, or counterproductive, rather than shaming anyone who suggests selecting for raw physical attractiveness/status is less virtuous than selecting for moral virtues.
>>16454045
>WHY so many young men came into such a pathology?
I chalk it up to a lack of life experience.
"Nice guys" tend to be pretty boring, they are introverted and any money they make goes towards funding their antisocial hobbies.
Half of the reason that women go for the "bad boys" up until the age of about 24 is that they want to experience life, they want to go out and do things, be spontaneous and enjoy themselves, something "nice guys" aren't able to give them.
It isn't all bad though, after the women have given their best years to "bad boys" any maybe had a kid that resulted in the guy leaving, the nice guy will be happy to take the sloppy seconds and raise a kid who resents them while mommy tells them cool stories about real daddy.
>>16455758
I don't think that it is complicated at all. It's just not this black and white either.
>>16454045
because they come from broken homes
/thread
>>16455970
Remember to never settle for a used up skank and provide for her while she fucks Chads behind your back.
>>16455970
> whether or not a guy is considered boring is dependent upon what value his personal interests provide for women in their early years
Ahh, good old subtle gynocentrism. Shouldnt expect any less from the guys on 4chan who are winners for "totally getting women, bro".
I understand "what women want", I just dont really care. If women find me boring its not my job to change to suit their own onteresrs above my own. Funny enough is that I get along better with women - and people in general - when I am not so obsessed with not appearing boring to them.
>>16456024
But anon, you have to please women or else you'll never get laid and you'll be a loser! :^)
>>16454138
When everyone is allowed to be happy doing whatever they so wish, within legal parameters.
It sounds simplistic, but I'm talking on a grand scale. A genuine desire by the consensus to leave sterotypes with respect to gender, race, class, nation, religion, and other characteristics we feel define us from birth behind and encourage individual accomplishment. In short, anarchy without the ugly violence or subtle acceptance or encouragement of the aforementioned sterotypes that often accompanies it in practice.
>>16456024
Because doing shit that involves going out is subtly implying that it means solely doing it for women?
I didn't say that "nice guys aren't metrosexual", I'm just pointing out that nice guys stick to themselves and offer nothing to others.
>>16454138
>where do you suppose they got their wrongheaded ideas about what most women want?
Indoctrination from a young age by pretty much any and all cartoons and kids movies where the "nice guy" always gets the girl in the end, which also cultivates the sense of entitlement. It doesn't help that the girl in question is usually portrayed as some prize to be won if you can simply play the game right, rather than a person with any sense of autonomy. Sometimes a girl is just not into you and it isn't anyone's fault. "Nice guys" don't seem to get this basic concept.
