>>>/lgbt/

>>17039922
Well, I don't really go thinking 'I am man'.
I just like what I like, but... These people feel uncomfortable inside their bodies, and think transforming into a man/woman is what they need.
Of course, people rarely truly know what is the best possible choice is in these kind of extremely confusing situations.
So they follow through, hoping that maybe relief will finally follow. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't

That's what I know. I wouldn't think too hard on it. If it makes you uncomfortable, just remember they've pretty much removed themselves from the gene pool just to remove their own discomfort.

>>17039937
Also this.

>>17039922

the truth is its hard to have a frame of reference because gender is not fluid and humans have a generally high demonstration of gender dimorphism.

there are different brain chemistries/compositions we know of at work, in addition to hormones going on on the inside. There are also the external visual factors, of course.

that means the simple fact is it won't actually be readily possible for you to know exactly how strongly you are defined by your own gender. you can only speculate based on your current understanding of your gender.

Its not like any of us can 'try out' being the other gender to know what its like.

In my exp, there are 2 types of trans categories: those who have some physiologically linkable sign to their claim of their gender dysphoria, and those who are arguing against the concept of gender as being something constructed by society alone.

I'm not gonna question whether dysphoria is an actually medical thing, but generally it seems like trans people, or at least those aboard the trans hype train, just want to do things that society says the other gender should do. In that way, it seems like they're strongly affirming the gender roles and constructs that dictate how people of each gender is treated. I think that's bullshit.

Like, I'd like it if it was cool for me to wear skirts and lipstick. It seems like most trans people just do that, but all the way. There's a lot of weight put on 'passing' or at least being 'accepted' by people, which just makes it seem more like being trans is something to do with the way people and society treat you and expect you to behave, rather than something internal.

Given that a vital goal of transmen is to grow a beard and of transwomen to have long hair and wear makeup, that's how it seems, at least.

>>17039967

it is more complicated than that unfortunately.

especially because what we know about it is that it is a mental disorder, but many political advocates for trans are looking for acceptance and not treatment. They want trans to be looked at the same way being gay is. hence lgbt.

If it was just a simple as an individual wanting to do things more associated with the sex opposite of them, it would not be causing this uproar. But people are actually trying to make the argument that the things done by each sex themselves are purely a fabrication of human society and there is really no justifiable biological difference between sexes.

short: some trans want to do the things of the opposite gender not because they feel like they are the opposite gender (or not only), but instead feel that the idea of gender is bullshit to begin with because societal oppression.

even that, most people can deal with, but then they take it one step further when they want laws changed that affect everyone and grant themselves protected-class status.

>>17039922
Identity politics.

>>17039956
Those are interesting points, thank you.

>and those who are arguing against the concept of gender as being something constructed by society alone.

Are those still trans tho? If they claim that gender is not a thing, then there's no reason for them to mutilate themselves by "transitioning", is there?

>>17039922
there is male
and there is female
very rarely, there is hermaphrodite
anything else is nonsensical, childish hogwash spouted by people who are unable or unwilling (likely the latter) to accept reality. i dont even see it as mental illness. its just deluded, self absorbed people being encouraged by other deluded, self absorbed people. i see these people essentially as children throwing a tantrum and being catered to. what happens when you cater to a screaming child? thats correct, they get worse. what happens when you ignore a screaming child? eventually they wear themselves out and realize that acting like an asshole wont get you your way.

>>17039922
I think the real problem is just that. I don't know about you, but I often wake up in the morning and I don't feel like a girl or a boy. I just feel like myself. I don't acknowledge it through most things in life, even if my dick is in plain view or something
and trans people want to do that too, but the reason we can and they're unable to is because we usually actually have people refer to us as our preferred gender as opposed to the opposite
and trans people are reminded constantly of how people don't and can't view them as what they wanna be
so they're forced to realize constantly that they feel a certain way inside, but not out

>>17039922
>Am I just weird and most other people out there feel strongly defined by their gender?
Various kinds of "weird" can and do affect this.
For example, schizoids and those on the autism-spectrum typically do not internalize, accept, or even understand social identities. They are detached from other people and thus don't (schizoids) or can't (autists) feel positive emotional reinforcement from belonging to such an identity.
Those on the schizophrenia spectrum frequently develop and assign people to their own (often strange, creative, or absurd) identity concepts due to their social detachment from reality.
Narcissists usually have arbitrary identities that only they, and possibly distant others, belong to (eg "misunderstood geniuses"). People with extremely low self-esteem do the same thing at the opposite end ("failures", "losers").
With ASPD people ("psychopaths")... it's complicated.
The list goes on.

>And this "feel mentally like <gender>" is exactly what i dont get.
>I'm (biologically) male, but i cant say i "feel internally like a male"
>I feel internally like myself, and being physically male is just a fact of the universe
Ask yourself these questions:

What race are you? Do you feel like a [black/latino/etc] man? Like you're part of a larger entity, a class/caste? Do you feel a connection to other [blacks/latinos/etcs]? Feel the desire to help uplift your fellow [blacks/latinos/etcs]? Feel uncomfortable when you walk into a room and everyone else is [a different race]? Would you feel uncomfortable about being attracted to someone of another race? Feel strongly about racial issues (positive discrimination, immigration, etc)?

What about your nationality? Do you feel, deeply, that you're a [Frenchman/American/etc]? Feel affection for your country and its symbols (flag, etc)? Are you [proud/ashamed] when you hear people talk about [good/bad] things your countrymen have done?

Basically, do you understand and experience social identity in general?

>>17039922
Regarding trans people:

There are a lot of reasons people can be trans. Insofar as I understand it, the two main ones are physical dysphoria ("I hate that my body looks like a guy's! A feminine body would be way more comfortable!") and social dysphoria ("I hate that people treat me like a guy! A feminine social role would be way more comfortable!"). Trans people can be motivated by one of these, both of these to varying degrees, both of these to the same degree, or something else. 'Trans' is just a term for people who want to have a gender other than the one society claims they have: an iranian guy who wants to transition so his relationship with another man will no longer be an abomination unto Allah is still hella trans.

Regarding you:

People vary dramatically in how strongly they feel and/or care about their gender. People like us - who aren't horrified by the idea of waking up as the opposite gender, and to whom the lyric "man, I feel like a woman" doesn't seem all that comprehensible - are pretty common. Google 'cis by default' if you're interested in reading people smarter than me debating about this.

Regarding your pic:

>Captain_america_saying_I_understood_that_reference.jpg

>>17039922
Imagine you woke up tomorrow, and you were a girl. Society treats you as though you had always been a girl. How do you feel then?

This is normally the way I describe it to people to help them understand.

>>17040096
Christ, how can some people be so selfish?

All they want is for you to call them 'her' or 'him'. That's not hard at all, and doesn't affect your life in any way. It seems some people like you enjoy being cruel for the sake of it.

>>17040134
>Ask yourself these questions:
>...
>Basically, do you understand and experience social identity in general?

Hmm, i guess i don't. None of the things you listed apply to me really, I've always been rather individualistic and found people's tendencies to stick labels on themseves quite alien. So could be im an autist or something.

>>17040180
>"I hate that my body looks like a guy's! A feminine body would be way more comfortable!"

I can understand that someone feels that way. I cannot understand that someone feels that way to such an extent that they choose to mess with their bodies in poorly understood ways with equally poor results. They must know they won't "really" be seen as the opposite gender, not with current levels of medicine.

One thing I notice a lot in these discussions is men says "but I don't *feel* male", and women saying that they do feel female.

I think this is because society sees male as default and women as a deviation from default.

Maybe trans people are seeking to gain/lose the feeling of female-ness (or otherness)?

>>17040235
>Imagine you woke up tomorrow, and you were a girl. Society treats you as though you had always been a girl. How do you feel then?

As an anon very correctly points out above, we can only speculate about this, since it's not possible to really try it out. But speaking theoretically, i don't see such a huge problem in this. There would be many practical differences, but nothing really fundamental about me would have changed.

>>17040260
Literally everyone in the world who sees you will draw a different judgement about you than they would have done previously. They will react to you in a different way. Sometimes is is negligible, sometimes it will be drastically different.
Imagine every judgement they are drawing about you simply isn't correct - they should be jumping to the ideas you would have about the other gender.

>>17040235
>Imagine you woke up tomorrow, and you were a girl.
>Society treats you as though you had always been a girl.
>How do you feel then?
>This is normally the way I describe it to people to help them understand.
I suspect this won't help OP at all. For example, here's what i thought imagining that:
>oh wow, i'm a chick now, how the hell did this happen?
>wasn't i a dude? psychotic break? memory error? magic spell? curse?
>should probably go see a shrink
>oh well, gotta go to class anyway
>shower, start to shave but realize i don't have to anymore
>get dressed same way (nice shirt with buttons, tightish pants, boots)
>oh cool, now i can go get all kinds of interesting clothes
>always thought male dress standards are boring as fuck
>go to class as always, come home as always, etc

>>17040243
Yeah, you probably have some schizoid traits (keep in mind that this isn't a problem). Autism is unlikely since autists are generally not very good at (or capable at all of) talking about their own feelings, much less those of others.

>>17040248
>One thing I notice a lot in these discussions is men says "but I don't *feel* male", and women saying that they do feel female.
One factor in this is that schizoid and autistic tendencies are far more common among men than women (thought a large part of that difference is itself social/cultural).
>Maybe trans people are seeking to gain/lose the feeling of female-ness (or otherness)?
Possibly: for comparison, the above traits are often cited as part of why men are more susceptible to extremist movements/radicalization like the KKK or ISIS (deep desire to feel the sense of belonging and inclusion that others do). However, i think such people are actually much less likely to be trans, because most understand that they will not feel "female" any more than they feel "male" (eg by the "imagine yourself as a female" question another anon suggested).

>>17040266
Anyone forming any judgements about me purely on the basis of me being male (or female, or an attack helicopter) is likely to be wrong anyway. So no big change there.

The only teams people I've met have regretted it years later or were mentally ill before they "discovered" their dysmorphia.

The truth is- nobody born one gender knows how it feels to be the other one.

They'd just rather live with the benefits of the other sex because they seem more pleasing.

>>17040300
You don't seem to understand. If you're cis, you likely conform to male cultural expectations and are happy for people to be judging you by those metrics. If you're not, you don't feel comfy with that.

>>17040306
You're absolutely wrong.

The moment I could talk, I was telling people I was the other gender. As a little kid, I would genuinely forget which one I was and use the wrong bathroom or do what the teachers told the other gender to do. When I had an opposite sex sibling born, I was crazy about their toys and would get told off for taking their things and not using my own.

As I grew older, dating was a shambles. I was straight (gay?) in that I was attracted to the opposite sex/gender I see myself as. I tried to attract them in the ways that came to me instinctively, and thus failed disastrously. My sexual fantasies were far more in line with my perceived gender than my sex, meaning when I did manage to hook up with someone, it would fall apart pretty rapidly.

My job is pretty typical for my perceived gender (but not sex). I face people saying stuff to me as a result of my sex that is degrading and makes me want to lash out, while others of my sex take it in good nature.

I was certain I was the other gender before I knew anything about the 'benefits' of the other sex. All I knew is, boys did that and girls did this, and there was something very wrong with me.

>>17039922

I feel like an alien, and the alien race I feel like has not only their cock cut off but also their eyes gouged out, and you;re a horrible person if you dont think taxes should help me to get these surgeries for my mental health.

They're mentally ill, likely bored and drama-seeking and refuse to accept the basic biological facts.

>>17040326
If they are mentally ill, there's a pretty good treatment out there - letting them live as their preferred gender. Why not show some compassion and help?

>>17039922
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

>>17040243
>Hmm, i guess i don't. None of the things you listed apply to me really,
>I cannot understand that someone feels that way to such an extent
There's 2 things to understand here: first, that some people (like you and me) feel certain feelings related to social identity less strongly (or not at all). In fact, we're even starting to physiologically understand why.
Take a look at this study (titled "Oxytocin increases liking for a country's people and national flag but not for other cultural symbols or consumer products"), for example:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4122242/

The second (why some people feel strongly enough to transition) is less clear, and currently under all sorts of different investigative approaches (eg fMRI studies on male, female, and trans brain activity). We can at least say (like another anon did) that there's 2 main drivers: social (dysphoria) and physical (dysmorphia). People are unhappy with their body (eg that it has the "wrong" equipment), or are unhappy with their social identity as the "wrong" gender (unhappy about assumptions people make about them, unhappy about the way others interpret their physical appearance or voice, etc). Usually both come into play, because of how normal people work.

Basically, you said that dysmorphia alone wouldn't bother you enough to transition, which is probably true.

>>17040328
Pretending that they aren't ill doesn't seem like much of a solution and it creates potential legal problems.

>>17040340
It's not 'pretending they aren't ill', it's actively fixing the issue. Nobody is being harmed by trans people living as their preferred gender at all.

And what kind of legal issues are you talking about?

>>17040317
So did you have surgery? If yes, did it make you happier?

Because most information I see on the internets suggests that trans people are deeply unhappy/depressed/suicidal, both before and after any treatments. Which again suggests that acceptance and surgery might not be the right procedure there.

But then again it might just be the internet selection bias and you just don't see the happy and content ones.

>>17040352
First of all, there's the simple matter of truth. It's wrong for someone who is a man to pretend to be a woman simply because it's not the truth. Potential problems are things like trans people competing in sports, marriage in countries where same-sex marriage is illegal, using toilets, joining the male-only Christian clergy or the male-only Freemasons, etc.

>>17040360
I haven't yet had any surgery/hormone treatment. My family basically threatened to disown me over it so in my teens I hid it from everyone. I then met and fell in love with a straight person. They now understand my situation and say they would support me through a transition and would even stay with me as my partner. But I'm still dealing with the shame of it publicly. I dress as my preferred gender sometimes and people are getting used to the idea.

Then again, I'm not crazy dismorphic. While I would love to sort my chest out, I don't really feel too bad about what's in my pants. For me, it's mostly about how society views me.

And you're right about selection bias. Many people, once they have transitioned, leave the trans movement behind because they don't want to draw attention to their history as the other gender.

Also, your stats seem off. 95% of people who have GRS report they are happy with the result. https://www.skane.se/Upload/Webbplatser/USIL/Dokument/Sjukhusbibliotek/Johansson,%20Annika.pdf

>>17040365
What? Your idea of 'truth' is absolute bullshit.Why should they have to make it obvious what state their genitals were in the day they were born? That's actually one of the most stupid arguments against transitioning I think I've ever seen, and that is saying something.

As for your other points? Just stop discriminating between the genders. Fixed instantly. You're welcome.

>>17040306
>or were mentally ill before they "discovered" their dysmorphia.
Dysphoria causes depression (and anxiety/avoidance in those predisposed), not the other way around ("i feel like shit, maybe i should go get a sex change, yeah that'll fix it"?)

>>17040340
>Pretending that they aren't ill doesn't seem like much of a solution and it creates potential legal problems.
Transition is the opposite of pretending it doesn't exist: it's a treatment. A very effective one.
As for legal problems, those are generally the result of shitty laws that discriminate between males and females for no good reason (usually religious ones).
>>17040365
>It's wrong for someone who is a man to pretend to be a woman simply because it's not the truth.
Now we're getting somewhere. What makes someone a "man"? What makes them a "woman"?

>>17040310
If you're cis, you likely conform to male cultural expectations and are happy for people to be judging you by those metrics.
By what OP has said, he obviously isn't. In fact, those expectations probably bother him, since they limit his behavior for reasons he doesn't understand, in exchange for benefits he doesn't enjoy. Take a look at >>17040134 >>17040243 >>17040296 >>17040338

>>17040373
>Why should they have to make it obvious what state their genitals were in the day they were born?
Because the parents want to know? Because it's medically and legally relevant?
>Your idea of 'truth' is absolute bullshit
It's a very simple fact. Your belief that something like a "woman in man's body" is possible is pure magical thinking.

>Just stop discriminating between the genders
Different genders are different. Another basic biological fact. If you disagree with that, then what's the point of transgenderism?

>>17040375
I've just been sort of watching this thread, not posting. I'm not against trans people at all, I sorta like them, but aren't suicide rates really high amongst people who transition? Especially if they go through gender reassignment

>>17040382
Maybe because dickweeds like
>>17040381
continue to treat them like shit, making them feel like they will never get to live the life they deserve in peace.

>>17040381
Why are you so bound by this idea of 'biological fact'? Don't you understand it is society, not biology, making this so-called 'fact' the 'truth'?

>>17040375
>What makes someone a "man"? What makes them a "woman"?
You can start with chromosomes.

>>17040387
>treat them like shit
I'm just pointing out the facts.

>Why are you so bound by this idea of 'biological fact'?
Because the truth matters.

>Don't you understand it is society, not biology, making this so-called 'fact' the 'truth'?
That is just wishful thinking from your side.

>>17040397
You're the one wishful thinking, dreaming of a world where everyone fits in nice simple boxes so they are nice and easy to understand.

>>17040401
I'm only interested in the truth, and gender is genetically determined.

>>17040408
That doesn't determine how we react to it.

There's no law in physics that says "XY chromosomes = must never wear a dress or be addressed as 'she' or have a girl's name", is there?

What now Mr Facks?

>>17040373
>Just stop discriminating between the genders. Fixed instantly. You're welcome.
Not a feasible solution because of bipolar politics.
Politicians on the "left" support eliminating these laws, but will stridently defend positive discrimination (eg women's sports).
Those on the right will accept eliminating positive discrimination schemes, but will not even accept the legitimacy of transition.

>>17040382
>aren't suicide rates really high amongst people who transition?
Yeah they're gigantic
Especially if they go through gender reassignment
Haven't seen solid data on this suggesting a change, might not be any. It's probably about the same as before, since many people are satisfied (thus much, much less likely to consider suicide), and many are not (eg high cost since insurance often won't cover, complications, shitty surgery due to getting it done in a 3rd-world country, failed MTF surgery often results in not being able to pass as either sex, etc)

>>17040397
>You can start with chromosomes.
Not really, look up Klinefelter's, Turner's, etc (conditions where your sex chromosomes are fucked up, like XXY, XYY, XXX, X, etc)

From what I understand, it's a sort of dysmorphia, where they feel that their body is not how it should be. I have a similar(ish) problem where I feel like I should look a certain way, and I'm obsessed with changing myself until I meet that goal. Right now that means losing weight, getting a breast lift, and a few other things. So it's similar to that, only instead of having the wrong ass or nose, they have the wrong gender. It doesn't matter if no one else sees their body as being wrong, they see themselves as wrong, and they want to fix it. I can understand that, I feel the same way about my body, I need to fix it. I'm obsessed with fixing it. I'm willing to put myself at risk to fix it. So I think I get it, at least to an extent.

I don't like the idea of gender as a social construct, personally. I think a guy should be able to wear a dress and makeup without having to change his pronouns, and men and women should be treated similarly enough that there's not a noticeable difference in roles, so no one has a problem with their gender. But it's out of my control, so I just want these people to feel good about themselves.

>>17040421
I think the left supports positive discrimination as a means to achieving a balance. For example, boardroom quotas break up the stereotype of what a leader looks like, leading to more women getting appointed naturally.

The right just want everything to stay the same shitty way it is now, benefiting some people at the expense of others.

>>17040413
If you're a woman then you're addressed as "she" and have a female name because you're a woman. What's the problem with that? Female pronouns and names are a result of women existing. They exist exactly because men and women are different in more things than just sexual organs.

>XXY, XYY, XXX, X
Having the Y chromosome is almost always enough to call someone a male. People with Klinefelter's, for example, are men. But those are disorders, they're a result of a mistake, they're not natural variations. Each disorder should be looked at in detail to see where the mistake was made so gender can be accurately defined. If someone has a Y chromosome, but no secondary sexual traits due to being insensitive to male hormones, they're still technically male. But like I said, those are genetic disorders, meaning that something went wrong and they shouldn't be used as a reference point in discussions like these. If you're genetically male and have developed male sexual organs, you're a man.

>>17040431
> If you're a woman then you're addressed as "she" and have a female name because you're a woman. What's the problem with that? Female pronouns and names are a result of women existing. They exist exactly because men and women are different in more things than just sexual organs.
Erm, hold on, you slippery little worm, that's not what you were arguing just now. You were saying we should ignore people's preferred genders because they aren't sticking to what their chromosomes indicate they 'should'. Have you dropped that line of 'reasoning' now? Did you suddenly realize it was bullshit?

>>17040437
I'm still saying that gender is biological only. Where do you see a contradiction?

>>17040446
So, if it is biological only, why should we be restricted in how we react to it socially?

>>17040448
What are you even arguing?

I'm opposed to women claiming to be men and men claiming to be women. If you're a man who wants to wear a dress, I don't give a shit, just don't claim to be a woman. Also, men and women are different socially due to their biological differences.

>>17040453
> If you're a man who wants to wear a dress, I don't give a shit, just don't claim to be a woman.
Why? What does it matter to you? How does it affect anyone apart from the person themselves, who is made considerably happier by being allowed to do it?

> men and women are different socially due to their biological differences
But why should those that deviate from it be forced to conform?

You don't have an answer to these questions, because there isn't one. Try to explore your 'reasons' for fighting against trans people being allowed to integrate, and you'll see they aren't based on a shred of 'fact', but your own feelings.

>>17040430
Problem is that at the end of the day, discrimination with good intentions is still discrimination. As soon as the law treats "men" and "women" differently (giving them different rights and privileges), it has to decide what a "man" and "woman" are, which inevitably leaves people on the "wrong" side.
Some of the hardest questions are in sports, where physical differences, hormone levels, etc actually matter.

>>17040431
>they shouldn't be used as a reference point in discussions like these
They're used because they're "edge cases", hard situations to test the logical basis of discrimination. They show that chromosomes alone can't be used to determine male vs female.

>>17040457
>What does it matter to you?
It's wrong because it's not true.
>How does it affect anyone
I already mentioned a couple of things.

>and you'll see they aren't based on a shred of 'fact', but your own feelings
No, your attempts to ignore the obvious truth is based on your own feeling. You refuse facing the truth. Trans nonsense isn't affecting my life yet since I live in a still rational country where trans are (at least seemingly) non-existant, but you're obviously biased on the topic.

>>17040479
>They show that chromosomes alone can't be used to determine male vs female.
They don't, like I pointed out already. You can still tell their actual gender.

>>17040539
Why do you seem to be so obsessed with the "truth"? Unbiased, completely objective truth doesn't even exist, and it never will, unless in the eyes of a potentionally existing God.

>>17040542
>Why do you seem to be so obsessed with the "truth"?
Why not? A man needs to have something in life to care about. I care about the truth.

>completely objective truth doesn't even exist
I don't agree with that.